[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / biz / c / cgl / ck / cm / co / d / diy / e / fa / fit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mu / n / news / o / out / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vip /vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y ] [Search | Home]
4Archive logo
Why did the Soviets perform so badly against...
If images are not shown try to refresh the page. If you like this website, please disable any AdBlock software!

You are currently reading a thread in /his/ - History & Humanities

Thread replies: 84
Thread images: 13
File: fdccax.jpg (44 KB, 616x746) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
fdccax.jpg
44 KB, 616x746
Why did the Soviets perform so badly against the Finns in this war? I know the Red Army treated their men more as cannon fodder during ww2, but this seems ridiculous considering Finland was at all not a significant power like France, UK ect.
>>
>>598821
Stalin purges on the officers, no supply lines, no moral, no discipline, shit weapons and Finland had the German army and countless Swedish volunteers with them.
>>
>>598821
Finland is a civilized country with the blood of emperors, russia is a mindless barbarian horde
>>
>>598821
>zerg rush

Stalol doesnt care if 1 or 1 million soldiers .
>>
File: WAR_21.jpg (628 KB, 1643x1240) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
WAR_21.jpg
628 KB, 1643x1240
>>598849
Worked well
>>
>>598821

off topic, but I made that image about 9 years ago

It makes me happy to see something I made in high school survive all these years, passed around from anon to anon.
>>
They won the war though.
>>
File: winter_war.png (108 KB, 321x963) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
winter_war.png
108 KB, 321x963
>>598821
The numbers are wrong though.
>>
>>598890
>>598917
lol you failed with the numbers on the pic you made suposedly 9 years ago
>>
>>598830
This
>>
>>598821
Because Mannerheim was incarnation of ex-god Ares himself.
>>
>>598924

It's wikipedia, I'd be more surprised if the numbers hadn't changed over 9 years.
>>
>>598830
>shit weapons
During the Winter War Finns had even shittier weapons
>Finland had the German army
Germany supported the soviet union during the Winter War, and refused to aid Finland.
>countless Swedish volunteers
8200
>>
>>598900
Debatable.
>>
>>598830
>Stalin purges on the officers, no supply lines, no moral, no discipline,

Agreed.

>shit weapons and Finland had the German army and countless Swedish volunteers with them.

Nigga plz.

Nothing wrong with Soviet weaponry, it's just that users of said weaponry were shit along with tactical leadership.

During winter war Germans were on Soviet side and actually prevented supplies from central Europe to be transported into Finland.

Swedish volunteers were pretty irrelevant, they were in frontlines just on last two weeks of war and only on relatively inactive locations. They were still the most useful foreign volunteers.
>>
>>599110
>Finalnd loses 11% of the territory and 30% of the economic assets of pre-war Finland.
Yeah it was a tie :D
>>
Reminder that finns are the heirs to the roman empire so they have inherited military supremacy
>>
>>598821
the finnish are just better soldiers whilst slavs are zergrush
>>
>>599122
And yet Finland achieved their Day 1 strategic goal
>Negotiate acceptable peace
And Soviet failed achieving their day 1 strategic goal
>Complete occupation of Finland.
Finland did not win but it certainly did not lose, either.
>>
>>599124
They are descendants of Genghish khan
>>
>>599132

>The Soviets demanded that the frontier between the USSR and Finland on the Karelian Isthmus be moved westward to a point only 30 kilometres (19 mi) east of Viipuri, Finland's second-largest city, to the line between Koivisto and Lipola. In addition, the Finns would have to destroy all existing fortifications on the Karelian Isthmus. Finland should also cede to the Soviet Union the islands of Suursaari, Tytärsaari, and Koivisto in the Gulf of Finland. In the north, the Soviets demanded the Kalastajansaarento peninsula. Furthermore, the Finns should lease the Hanko Peninsula to the Soviets for thirty years, and permit the Soviets to establish a military base there. In exchange the Soviet Union would cede Repola and Porajärvi from Eastern Karelia, an area twice as large as the territories demanded from the Finns.[34][36]
>>
>>599145
Same happened with Estonia, and look how they ended up.
Never trust Ivan. They are reincarnation of evil.
>>
>>599145
>30 kilometres (19 mi) east of Viipuri, Finland's second-largest city
>destroy all existing fortifications on the Karelian Isthmus.
>islands of Suursaari, Tytärsaari, and Koivisto in the Gulf of Finland.
>Finns should lease the Hanko Peninsula to the Soviets for thirty years, and permit the Soviets to establish a military base there
These demands, and the Soviets knew, were unacceptable as it would have endangered Finland's ability to defend it's territory against Soviet aggreassion.
Second of all, these demands weren't Soviet targets during the Winter War.
Also
>The Finnish Democratic Republic was a short-lived puppet government created and recognised only by the Soviet Union. Headed by Finnish politician Otto Ville Kuusinen, the Finnish Democratic Republic was Joseph Stalin's planned means to rule Finland.[1][2][3][4] It nominally operated in the parts of Finnish Karelia that were occupied by the Soviet Union during the Winter War.

>The Soviet Union argued that it was the only rightful government for all of Finland that was capable of ending the Winter War and restoring peace
>On 12 March 1940, the Finnish Democratic Republic was merged with the Karelian ASSR within the RSFSR to form the Karelo-Finnish SSR, a Soviet republic in its own right, after Finland had ceded the areas to the Soviet Union in the Moscow Peace Treaty.
>>
>>599145

Funny thing is that Soviet army had plans for victory parade in Helsinki in two weeks when war started and they formed new government for Finland that would voluntarily join subhuman shithole known as Soviet Union.
>>
File: continuantionwar.jpg (89 KB, 278x659) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
continuantionwar.jpg
89 KB, 278x659
>>598821
Continuation War was much bigger slaughter. Doesn't get as much attention as Winter War.
>>
>>599175
>subhuman shithole known as Soviet Union.
Can't agree more with this.... kek
>>
>>599108
>Germany supported the soviet union during the Winter War, and refused to aid Finland.
Well how do you explain the ss division in finland who fought alongside the finns
>>
>>599234
That was Continuation War. Not Winter War. 2 different conflicts.
>>
>>599246
oh my bad i thought he menat thru the both conflicts
>>
>>599178
Finns for undestandable reason most often bring up the Winter War to foreigners, seeing as we were unquestionably the good guys in it - while in the Continuation War we were a part of Operation Barbarossa and would've been okay with letting the Germans raze St. Petersburg and exterminate the population in exchange for getting that clay.
>>
>>598821
One of the few cases where the attacker is less prepared than the defender
>>
>>598854
Is that an FG 42?
>>
>>598821
> Why
Because the numbers you are posting are fake.


>>598917
Even those are wrong. Even if you trust the actual numbers (they are debatable). There was a lot of volunteer militia (over 100k male and over 100k female; not to mention over 50k underage) on top of 250k Finnish soldiers. Their losses are not counted among the casualties.


>>598830
> purges on the officers,
That's propaganda, actually.


>>599175
> Soviet army had plans for victory parade in Helsinki in two weeks
I'll take a wild guess and say you do not have a sauce on this.
>>
>>599308
Right, Stalin never purged any officers. At all.
>>
>>599312
> strawmanning that hard
>>
>>599178
>UK
>No operations
They bombed Petsamo
>>
>>598821
>defended some forests in winter
>lost both land and the war
>never won an aggressive war in history
>"be afraid, be very afraid"

lmao
>>
>>599308
>Even those are wrong. Even if you trust the actual numbers (they are debatable). There was a lot of volunteer militia (over 100k male and over 100k female; not to mention over 50k underage) on top of 250k Finnish soldiers. Their losses are not counted among the casualties.

Hahahaha what. Where does this bullshit originate from? Are you talking about the Suojeluskunta organization, because that's something that seems to confuse some foreigners.
>>
>>599338
> Suojeluskunta
Them and Lotta Svärd.

Explain, please, how exactly does this confuse foreigners?
>>
>>599335
>lost both land and the war
Lost land, didn't lose the war.
>never won an aggressive war in history
Never fought an aggressive war in history.
>>
>Swedish volunteers

Lmao, go to back to Sverigetråden Håkan.


Soviet soldiers were badly equipped for winter, used tactics that were not fit for forests without roads and officers were purged.

Finns knew their environment and adapted their warfare to it and were creative when it was needed

>>599257

You clearly don't know many Finns, we rarely bring up our history to anyone.

>Even those are wrong. Even if you trust the actual numbers (they are debatable). There was a lot of volunteer militia (over 100k male and over 100k female; not to mention over 50k underage) on top of 250k Finnish soldiers. Their losses are not counted among the casualties.

lolwat
>>
>>599353

Lotta's were basically nurses who stayed behind the lines and took care of wounded soldiers.
>>
>>599353
>Explain, please, how exactly does this confuse foreigners?
Suojeluskunta was not militia anymore during the 1930's, but an official part of the Finnis Army.
>>
>>599355
I'm Finnish dipshit.
>>
>>599361
Mostly, but not always. Some of them got deployed near front lines and suffered casualties.

Either way, military medics in USSR were part of the "soldiers" listed as Red Army troops.
>>
>>599315
You literally said that the officer purges were just propaganda

Make up your mind
>>
>>599353

Because I've encountered people online who seem to think that Suojeluskunta operated its own combat formations in Winter War, separate from the regular Finnish Army, and that their numbers are not counted among the Finnish casulties... which is false on both accounts. All male members of Suojeluskunta who were fit for war service were part of the regular Finnish Army, unless they had some important job on the home front. All casulties among them are counted among the Army casulties. Lotta Svärd meanwhile was non-combat organization, and while some did die in the war, they performed purely support functions, not frontline duty.

Seriously, how many casulties do you think Finland could "hide" with a total population of around 3,5 million people?
>>
>>599354
>w-w-we didn't lose the war, we just surrendered to their demands when they overcame our defences
>>
>>599354
>Never fought an aggressive war in history.

Then how could you be afraid then?

Also, they fought an aggressive war - the Continuation War, and they lost it.
>>
File: 1418655110872.jpg (16 KB, 277x269) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
1418655110872.jpg
16 KB, 277x269
>>599308
Different fag here. You're a fucking idiot

> There was a lot of volunteer militia (over 100k male and over 100k female; not to mention over 50k underage) on top of 250k Finnish soldiers. Their losses are not counted among the casualties
The volunteer militia is counted there, you dip. There's no way Finland could even have been able to sustain hundreds of thousands of more troops

>That's propaganda, actually
If that's true, then there's no excuse for the losses the soviets took

>I'll take a wild guess and say you do not have a sauce on this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Democratic_Republic
>>
>>599374
No. I meant Red Army inefficiency (actual or imagined) has nothing to do with the purges of officers.

To be precise: the numbers of officers "purged" (fired, demoted or actually arrested/executed) for political reasons (less than 10k during 1937-1939) constitute less than 5% of the Red Army officers in 1937 (206k).

Therefore I don't agree with "Stalin purges on the officers" having any significant impact on the Red Army.

Did I express myself sufficiently clear?


>>599376
> All male members of Suojeluskunta who were fit for war service were part of the regular Finnish Army,
> All casulties among them are counted among the Army casulties.
Hm. I'll look into it a bit more.

> Lotta Svärd meanwhile was non-combat organization, and while some did die in the war, they performed purely support functions, not frontline duty.
Not combat duty, you mean.

> Seriously, how many casulties do you think Finland could "hide" with a total population of around 3,5 million people?
No idea.

Imho, about 5-10k got "redefined" as non-military casualties (when compared to Soviet losses - the definitions of "military losses" was different for both states).
>>
>>599399
> >I'll take a wild guess and say you do not have a sauce on this.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Democratic_Republic
Search did not locate any "victory parade". Or any parade. Or "two weeks". Or "week".
>>
>>599372
Regardless they were not militia.
>>
>>599406
>The purge of the Red Army and Military Maritime Fleet removed three of five marshals (then equivalent to six-star generals), 13 of 15 army commanders (then equivalent to three- and four-star generals), eight of nine admirals (the purge fell heavily on the Navy, who were suspected of exploiting their opportunities for foreign contacts), 50 of 57 army corps commanders, 154 out of 186 division commanders, 16 of 16 army commissars, and 25 of 28 army corps commissars.

But hey it's only 5% of the officers so what
>>
>>599380
>we agreed to their demands which had been significantly reduced after we beat the shit out of them for 3 months solid
>>
>>599424
> significantly reduced
Um. No.
>>
>>599383
Continuation war was not a war of aggression.
Due to technicalities, the soviets attacked finnish via air attacks before finns did anything.
Retaking our land was barely aggression
>>
>>599424
You realise you're admitting a Finnish loss right? There was also no reduction.

You're just arguing severity now, which I don't care about.
>>
>>599434
>Retaking our land was barely aggression

Oh I see, you're one of those people
>>
>>599416
>At the beginning of the war, total victory over Finland was expected within a few weeks. The Red Army had just finished the invasion of eastern Poland at a cost of fewer than 1,000 casualties, due to Poland having been attacked by Germany from the west just two weeks prior. Stalin's expectations of a quick Soviet triumph were backed up by the politician Andrei Zhdanov and military strategist Kliment Voroshilov, but other generals had their doubts. The chief of staff of the Red Army, Boris Shaposhnikov, advocated a serious buildup, extensive logistical and fire support preparations, and a rational order of battle, deploying the army's best units. Zhdanov's military commander Kirill Meretskov reported at the start of the hostilities: "The terrain of coming operations is split by lakes, rivers, swamps, and is almost entirely covered by forests ... The proper use of our forces will be difficult". However, these doubts were not reflected in his troop deployments. Meretskov announced publicly that the Finnish campaign would take at the most two weeks. Soviet soldiers had even been warned not to cross the border into Sweden by mistake.[84]

There's your source. They were planning on winning within two weeks because they were impressed by Germany's blitzkrieg in Poland a couple of months back
>>
>>599434
>Killing 1mln civilians by blockading Leningrad from the North was barely aggression
I see, Finland didnd du nuffin.
>>
>>599420
I don't really have any time to double-check whatever propaganda Wikipedia is quoting, or what you might've (intentionally or not) misunderstood.

As I've stated - the severity of impact is greatly exaggerated. Do you have a rebuttal? Or just your personal impression based on Wikipedia?
>>
>>599372

290 Lottas died between 1939 and 1944... 140 of them died of diseases.

Face it, there are no mystery Finnish casulties hidden by dicking Around with statistics. It's all accounted for, and you can find info on each individual dead person online.
>>
>>599434
>retaking our land
fuck off, we went way past our old borders.

Why is it so hard for some people to accept that we were waging an offensive war?
>>
>>599449
>whatever propaganda Wikipedia is quoting
check the sources. Other than that, it's retarded to claim the effects of the purges were just propaganda when you have dozens of red army officials saying how badly they actually affected the whole structure of the army
>>
>>599433
Aand I point you to read more about the Terijoki government
>>
>>599445
>Germans encircle Leningrad
>Finland just stays still on it's borders
>Finland is somehow the blockading side.
That's like saying the French starved Germans to death during WW1, evwn though it was the British who blockaded the food imports from neutral countries.
>>
>>599455
>we went past our old borders
So? We were concerned of our safety and wanted negotiation leverage. Soviet Union had a history of attacking us.
>>
File: extrapolating.png (21 KB, 461x295) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
extrapolating.png
21 KB, 461x295
>>599444
A quote from page 34, from the book printed in 2002?

That's not a source, that's advertising.

> Meretskov announced publicly that the Finnish campaign would take at the most two weeks
A-and no victory parade. Nobody even mentioned Helsinki. One has to guess (or, you know, extrapolate) what he meant exactly.

So, care to tell me, did he express his personal opinion, or was that official statement? What position did he have at the time of "public announcement"?
>>
So if killing your generals/high ranking officers and underestimating your opponent isn't the reason, then why didn't Soviets capture the whole country? Which was somewhat expected, as what happened to Balts and the belief that Finland somehow legally belongs to Russia.
Finland did not have anything to match the red army.
>>
>>599452
Dear god...

Does a man dying after being wounded, count as "wounded" or as "dead"? Does transporting him off-site makes any difference? What if a week has passed and he died in hospital?

I'm talking about things like this, not unnamed mass graves you seem to keep imagining.
>>
>>599489
you said continuation war wasn't a war of aggression but if waging an offensive war way into enemy territory isn't aggressive, then what is?
>>
>>599455
Pretty much this.

Finnish Army marched way past the 1939 borders, which ultimately had a negative effect on our political standing with the Allies.
>>
>>599498
Fear of French and British intervention.
>>
>>599480
>Finland is somehow the blockading side.
Germans blockaded it from the south, Finland blockaded it from the North.
>>
>>599495
>A-and no victory parade. Nobody even mentioned Helsinki. One has to guess (or, you know, extrapolate) what he meant exactly.
>every time a nation was taken over by another nation in WW2 a victory parade was held in the capital
>not this time though
anyway, I wasn't even the person who used the term "victory parade" to begin with but it is obvious that the Russians were planning on a swift victory to show the might of the red army to the world and especially Germany

>So, care to tell me, did he express his personal opinion, or was that official statement?
this wasn't something published in news papers all across the Soviet Union but a statement he made to Stalin and the leading red army officials in some of their meetings. This doesn't exactly differ from some of the pompous and retarded claims some of the nazi leaders made during different stages of the war (eg. Herman Göring claiming they could bring down Britain's air force in mere weeks)
>>
>>599495
>xkcd
kill yourself any time
>>
>>598821
Remember this next time people are pulling whatifs out of their asshole about Rommel taking the Suez.

Logistics, logistics, logistics.

Tell me, how do you SUPPLY 1,500,000 men, 6,500 tanks and 3,800 moving from Russia to Finland?
>>
>>599535
> I wasn't even the person who used the term "victory parade" to begin with
Then you shouldn't have replied in the first place.

> Russians were planning on a swift victory to show the might of the red army to the world
Debatable, actually. I mean, nowadays we must vilify the Soviets, but they weren't brainless maniacs. At the time, Stalin had every intention of staying on the good side of Allies. Blatantly annexing Finland was not a thing that would make the world happy.

I'm not convinced USSR actually intended to fully annex Finland (i.e. completely turn it into Finnish SSR) and "have a parade in Helsinki". Not in 1939.

Now, having some part of Finland declare independence and request support from Soviets (so as to make the war sound as non-offensive as possible, at least to the Soviets themselves), and then force Finland to agree to cede the territory (thus ending the conflict in the eyes of the world), that would look semi-acceptable.

> a statement he made to Stalin
I.e. one general's personal opinion expressed during private meeting, as "we should be able to defeat the core of Finnish army within two weeks, circumstances permitting". Not an official declaration from Kremlin "we will have a victory parade within two weeks in Helsinki".

> This doesn't exactly differ
Actually, it does.
>>
>>598821
defending known territory with difficult terrain is far easier than waging offensive operations.

Also Soviets didn't even had winter uniforms.
>>
Soviet shills are so adorable

>it wasnt our fault
>Stalin purge never happened Stalin dindu nuffin
>merely propaganda comrade
>not like my sources, everyone knows the ussr would never lie
>we never even wanted all of Finland! we just wanted 11%

embarassing baka desu senpai
>>
File: finland.jpg (251 KB, 1280x876) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
finland.jpg
251 KB, 1280x876
Slingshot ?
>>
Molotov cocktail ?
>>
>>599489
And we had a history of attacking the Soviets.
Thread replies: 84
Thread images: 13
Thread DB ID: 465443



[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / biz / c / cgl / ck / cm / co / d / diy / e / fa / fit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mu / n / news / o / out / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vip /vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y] [Search | Home]

[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / biz / c / cgl / ck / cm / co / d / diy / e / fa / fit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mu / n / news / o / out / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vip /vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y] [Search | Home]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the shown content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows their content, archived. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content, then use the post's [Report] link! If a post is not removed within 24h contact me at [email protected] with the post's information.