>>582687 When you consider the faults of both the USA and the USSR, it's pretty clear there were no good guys. The Cold War was two powerful nations fighting for world dominance through political influence, the ideologies were a facade.
>>583492 Funny thing is that if it wasn't for Hitlers retarded obsession with race and had the Goal of the Nazis been 100% to defeat communists rather than "KILL DA SUBHUMANS JOOS AND SLAVS" The Soviets would have lost and Germany would have become a superpower with France and British and Russia down and an Isolationalist America
>>583492 Lebensraum was a pipe dream and Hitler realized this. It's pretty much on the level of "if I was the president of the planet we'd have flying cars now." He was an admitted ameriboo and pretty much had wet dreams about orchestrating a German manifest destiny.
But it was always a luxury and not the reason why the USSR was attacked, really fucking far from it.
>>583516 Didn't stop them from fighting two wars between 1775 and 1815, and it would definitely be a stretch to say that relations between the United States and the United Kingdom before WWII were altogether friendly.
>>583546 >It's no secret that Hitler admired the USA and the British Empire and to a large extent wanted to replicate them in Eastern Europe
That's literally what I said. Hitler read too much Karl May.
It was a pipe dream because no Germans actually wanted to move to Russia and repopulate it. When they started that program the number of volunteers was so low it was laughable. The fact of the matter is that the Germans believed the USSR would attack first within a year or two if they didn't act (whether this belief was based on reality is a different story).
I honestly don't understand why Hitler gets this special treatment. Everyone knows that politicians don't stay true to their words, deliver empty promises, flip flop like crazy, yet Hitler, the king of flip floppers, was supposedly this hardline idealist determined to follow the ideas he laid out 20 years before in a prison cell to the T. It baffles me to be honest and he gets this treatment from both National Socialists and from people who hate him, even though it doesn't really align with reality.
>>582687 Communism was abused by dictatorships of course. If we can't get past this point the conversation won't go very far before turning into memes.
Communism was used to look as liberal as possible without ceding any actual rights to the people.
"Muh freedoms" is not very compelling by contrast, however intelligent people can see through propaganda of any kind and the capitalists offered them the opportunity to succeed in business. So while the capitalists fell short at ensnaring the masses, they could appeal to the people who count in a number of places.
Communism would need to offer them something, a system of economics that tries to gain the same advantages of free markets without the disadvantages of state planning and give a country a prospect of developing as fast as the asian tigers and other postwar "miracle" countries.
The point I was disagreeing with you on is that Hitler ever recognised it was a pipe dream. Making rational arguments about the choices Hitler should have made, if he was rational, doesn't cut it, there is no evidence he was terribly rational.
>>582687 >Could the good guys have won the Cold War? Well the chief moments for an actual global communist revolution, over throwing Western and Eastern capitalism, were 1947-1949, 1953-1957 and 1968-1972.
>>583760 >yfw marx killed communism by predicting it, resulting in the ussr and similar states making a shitty version of it and eternally tarnishing the ideology >without marx and the soviet boogeyman we'd transition from capitalism to communism naturally, like god intended
>>583739 Not really, the chief moment for Communist Revolution is still probably 50-100 years in the future and will have more to do with the emergence of advanced automation along with resource crunch.
Could the USSR have won the cold war. no, the US still hasn't collapsed today so no. Could the USSR have survived, yes, easily if Khrushchev wasn't thrown out, if Glasnost and Perestroika weren't rushed and if the right faction didn't rebel, the USSR would probably still be alive and well today.
Brezhnev though set in a series of events that basically doomed the USSR. He was the worst possible person to have (an ultra-conservative, authoritarian Stalinist) to have at a time when the USSR should have been developing it's own popular culture and waging a cultural war against the west.
>>583776 >Not really, the chief moment for Communist Revolution is still probably 50-100 years in the future and will have more to do with the emergence of advanced automation along with resource crunch.
OCC has been high enough since the 1890s.
Communisation is a "social" problem about cohering solidarity, not an economic problem.
>>583784 Not really, give it another few decades and the RoP/OCC crunch will really happen. It's going to be very interesting to watch them try claw their way out of this one and it will make 2008 and 1929 look like a tiny speed bump next too a mountain.
>>583802 We're discussing if the material basis for communisation exists, not how workers councils will inter-operate until superfluity and collective self-regulation destroy "the economic" as a problem.
Hurricane Katrina (deliberate faulty construction) 1,836 NATO Intervention in Libya 2011 15,000 Tamils killed by US backed Sri Lankan Gov. 30,000 US Revolutionary War 35,700 Spanish-American War 100,000 US Made Famine in Bangladesh 1974 100,000 NATO Intervention in Libya 100,000 Guatemala 300,000 US Bombing of Yugoslavia 2,000 Iraq (US Selling Poison Gas to Saddam) 400,000 Iraq (Desert Storm) 500,000 US Bombing Iraq Water Supply in 1991 500,000 Invasion of the Philippines 650,000 US Civil War 700,000 US Concentration Camps of Germans 1,000,000 US imposed sanctions on Iraq 1,000,000
Afghanistan (War on Terrorism) 1,200,000 US Backed Dictator General Suharto 1,200,000 (Anti-commmunist dictator) Iraq (War on Terrorism) 1,300,000 1898 American War vs Philippine 3,000,000 US Intervention in the Congo 5,000,000 US Aggression on Latin America 6,000,000 Vietnam War (including Cambodia & Laos) 10,000,000 Korean War 10,000,000 Native American Genocide 114,000,000 African Slave Trade 150,000,00
Feudal Russia 1,066,000 First Indochina 1946-1954 1,750,000 Khmer Rouge (not communist) 2,035,000 South African Apartheid 3,500,000 Chiang Kai Shek regime (China) 7,000,000 Congo 1886-1908 8,000,000 Nazi Holocaust 12,000,000 Post-Soviet Capitalism in Russia 1,500,000 World War One 16,500,000 World War Two 60,000,000
Hamburg Cholera Outbreak 1892 10,000 Union Carbide Bophal Disaster 15,000 Industrial Revolution Kids & Adults USA 100,000 Chetnik Collaboration & Genocide 100,000 Herero and Namaqua Genocide 110,000 Burma-Siam Railroad Construction 116,000 Albanian Genocide 270,000 Fascist Independent State of Croatia 900,000 Armenian Genocide 1,500,000 Famine of 1932-33 (Kulak policy and weather) 7,000,000 Great Depression (America alone) 12,000,000 Children Killed by Preventable Diseases Since 9/11 208,000,000 Children Killed by Hunger during the 2000s 246,256,000 Children Killed by Hunger during the 1990s 100,000,000 Capitalist Policy in India 1947 – 1990 120,000,000
You must be a bit mental and ignorant if you are unaware of the transatlantic slave trade or the British occupation of India and think these had nothing to do with private corporations, backed by imperialistic states, and my only criteria is that they had nothing to do with the USSR.
I only read about half of the list before deciding you were either an idiot or a troll. Anybody who would throw the Khmer Rouge into the list in order to "show imperialist counter-revolutionaries how many people their ideology has killed," deserves to be ridiculed or ignored.
>>584035 3 million is the lowest estimate I've ever seen; highest has been in the tens of millions.
But, assuming you're right and not a retarded idealist, 3 million gulag inmates divided by the USSR's population of 220 million-ish pre WW2 is a whopping 1.3% of the population. U.S. felons are 0.7% of the population, so.... Yeah go USSR.
There is no mechanism in place for such a transformation to occur. If the socialist mode of production preceding the theorized communist one lasts even close to as long as capitalism has, you'll be seeing hundreds of years of oppressive groupthink grinding down humanity combined with massive famines if history is any indication of the government's ability to distribute essential resources.
I fail to understand how this is at all desirable.
>>584041 I agree society plays a role, I would just argue that its different parts of society than you. A high minimum wage keeping low skilled workers out of work, an entitled black community that associates success with being a sellout. Then there's always the price of freedom- more freedom means more people are free to fuck up. Fair trade off from most American's point of view.
But please, tell me how communism would make it all better.
Please tell me how you can honestly say that a society that locks up a far greater percentage of its population is objectively better. Society doesn't just play a part, it's not pixies up a mountain controlled by Donald Duck leading to more "criminals" no matter how much you whine.
Please tell me how the millions and millions worldwide slaughtered by the Western powers and today is objectively better.
You have already been provided citations for all of this before you start squeaking "what".
>>584099 >it's not pixies up a mountain controlled by Donald Duck leading to more "criminals" Really? Just stay away from drugs and there is virtually no chance of going to jail, it is not like the US sprinkles crack on political opponents and sends them to labor camps.
>Please tell me how the millions and millions worldwide slaughtered by the Western powers and today is objectively better. At worst it is a few military dictatorships who killed a few 1000 violent thugs trying to start a pointless civil war then transitioned to democracy as the cold war came to a close. Even so it is more like the US federal government contending with the Soviet Union, far removed from capitalism or business interests.
Objectively the suffering caused by "revolutionaries" like Che Guevara is orders of magnitude worse than that of the worst conventional criminals, child rapists, serial killers, whatever beastly crimes you can think of. What is the worst a business has done? Sold a hamburger to an obese lady trying to lose weight and bring passion back into her marriage? Problems like this are trivial.
>>584099 Those statistics had no direct link to capitalism, people dying at x time isn't automatically the fault of the system. That's assuming the statistics aren't bullshit; two sources on the same "statistic" can be wildly opposed in what they feel is correct.
>Please tell me how you can honestly say that a society that locks up a far greater percentage of its population is objectively better
Society isn't measured by one random metric, its a combination of millions of factors. This one factor is bad. Other factors, like quality of life, hunger, access to education, technological advancement, healthcare etc are good.
Society does "just play a part." Biology plays another.
>>584127 Part of it is that you haven't actually read anything about the Soviet Union so you can't differentiate Marxists who are saying exactly how bad the Soviet Union was (not that bad actually, but just as bad as Western capitalism), and the two edgy tankies.
>>584148 >(not that bad actually, but just as bad as Western capitalism) >so you can't differentiate Actually, I'm talking about apologist retards like you that compare the Soviet Union to 'Western capitalism'. An entire economic ideology vs a particular manifestation of another ideology in a state. But of course, you have to collectivize 'Western capitalism' to make it look half as bad as what the Soviet Union did, and it's honestly pathetic.
>>584048 Actually between 8-12 million is the number that was come up with when the same black book of communism statistics were used on the US.
It wasn't really to show 8-12 million people died, but how fucking stupid it is to use statistical analysis in a vacuum ignoring social and material conditions of the time.
It isn't even 12 million people are dead, it's "12 million people that could have been there if birth rates continued at peak rates from previous years continued"
This is how you get shit like 40 million people dead in the GLF, 40 million people didn't actually die, 40 million were missing following a population trend.
For example, mass mobilization of a society, say all the men work long hours in factories or join the military in a total war situation, the birth rate then plummits. Using them measure the BBoC uses, all those babies that no longer exist are now "dead people" even if a single person didn't actually die in the real world.
The USSR could've won, or more likely as in our timeline the USA could've lost; but only if a number of different things happen.
> Truman abandons Greece in 1947, thus the Marshall Plan never happens, thus currency reforms in West Germany never take place, leaving them to turn to Soviet 'aid' in time > The CIA doesn't interfere in the Italian elections in 1948, leading to Italy electing Communists > Italy under Communism strengthens the Communists in France, who already have the French Communist Party as their largest party, potentially leading to France electing a Communist majority government.Iron curtain now extends from the channel to the Aegean > NATO doesn't come into existence, there's only a 'special relationship' between the dwindling British Empire and the USA > Communism continues to spread throughout British colonies, unopposed with no US doctrine of containment
>>584816 I don't think the proper response to a group using ridiculous statistics to argue against an ideology is to make up your own ridiculous statistics to attack their ideology. I can see why you're doing it but I don't think it's very constructive.
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