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Is Julius Caesar overrated?
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You are currently reading a thread in /his/ - History & Humanities

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Is Julius Caesar overrated?
>>
the man or the play
>>
completely underrated desu

>seiging a city
>build a wall
>relief force is coming
>build another wall

fucking madman.
>>
>film set in ancient Rome or Greece
>everyone is northern european
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>>579795
Link to said seige?
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>>579814

siege of alesia.
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>>579795

>Constantly defeat forces that outnumber him. including other Romans
>Almost double the Republic in size
>When he was only a young man he made life a living hell for pirates that captured him. After his release, he came back and crucified all 2000 pirates.
>Instituted reforms that increased the quality of life for everyday romans
>Banged Cleopatra
>Came from relatively modest birth to become arguably the most iconic statesman in history

Your name doesn't become a synonym for emperor/king without you being awesome.

TLDR: He's not overrated. Maybe slightly embellished, but that's it.
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>>579814

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU1Ej9Yqt68
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>>579822
>Banged Cleopatra
She was smart but not pretty
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>>579930

I hear she had a pretty stellar nose.
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>>579795

The man literally stopped in the middle of his own civil war to fight and win another civil war in Egypt.

Absolute fucking madman.
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>>579826
Good fucking lord, anon thank you for introducing me to this channel. It makes having history as a hobby a little less lonely.
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>>579826
>>580001

That video is really underplaying the effect of logistics on the battle. The "army" inside Alesia itself included women and children, and was basically starving by the time of the battle. According to legend, at one point the Gauls sent their women and children into the Roman fort between the two walls, hoping Caesar would let them out. He did not, and they returned after a while to inside Alesia.

This also answers the question of "Why didn't the Gauls just get more reinforcements and keep attacking?" - I mean, the Romans were kind of trapped themselves between the two walls. The answer is because a Gallic army of that size couldn't be logistically supported any longer, and because the people inside Alesia would have starved to death by the time they could get another venture going.

(As for where the Romans got their supplies, I'd have to go back and re-read some books but I think they just had lots of food with them, plus they would have pulled anything edible for miles around into their fort while they were building the second wall and waiting for reinforcements to arrive)
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>>579755
Absolutely, his most famous military victory is Alesia, and all he did there was build a wall and siege himself
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>>580103
Gual detected.

Stay mad, I'll be behind my anti-Gaul wall sipping wine and banging catamites.
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>>580123
but for how long you degenerated roman? At least in Gaul we have strong beautiful woman with plenty of hair under the arms and in the legs, not like in Roma, where you only have old men
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>>580123
Did Ceaser bang boys/girls? Or was he just a regular Chad?
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>>580157

>Late Republican
>Not banging literally everything

He fucked women, he fucked men, got fucked by men, fucked little boys, hot egyptians, other peoples wives.

Truly a descendent of venus.
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>>580157
The whole Nicomedes thing was probably propaganda against him. Caesar was notorious in fucking senators wives, queens and shit. It seems unlikely that a man like Caesar who constantly wanted to be top dog would have let himself be taken as bottom bitch by the King of Bithniya.

In fact, it was one of the only ways to get Caesar super mad, and to say he was the queen of Bithniya would be begging for an ass kicking
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>>580174
>>580169
>>580157
If Caesar ever fucked men he was at the very least a top.
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>>579755
dude was a genius legislator and litigator even before his career as a general. so no....he was not.

Sulla and Marius were probably better generals though...
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>>580184
Pompey was better than Marius and Sulla, yet Caesar crushed Pompey.
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>>579755

Absolutely

Most of the things written about him are propaganda and posthumous glorification of his legacy. A good general and statesmen but nowhere near great man that Roman histories portray him as and if anything Augustus completely eclipsed him in ability and accomplishments.
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>>579755
He is the greatest leader to have ever existed,
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>>580201
I would argue that Sulla was more brutal than any of them and probably influenced Ceaser.
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>>580201
how was Pompey better than Marius or Sulla?
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>>580236
yeah....Sulla was cold blooded. Had a sense of humor though.
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>>579822
>came from relatively modest birth
Stopped reading right there. No matter what else you got correct, you'll always be a scrub in my book, cupcake.

>>580169
Uh oh, it's this meme again.

>>580201
>Pompey
>better than Marius's eyebrows or one of Sulla's pubic hairs
Nope

>>580236
>probably
Without a doubt.
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>>580496
Epirus, and Hannibal better Generals than all though probably shittier statesmen then any of the great Roman generals.

Though as a purely technical manager of cities Hannibal was pretty great.
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>>580519
I'm assuming you mean Pyrrhus? And while neither of them was ever pitted against Marius or Sulla, I think Marius's success against the Germans and Jugurtha, and Sulla's success against Pontus and other Roman and Italian armies speak for themselves. No way Kikethage or Epoorus could compete.
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>>579755
Underrated. Caesar was the greatest man in history and that can broker no argument.
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>>579822
You left out that he made the pirates increase the the money asked for his relief from the pirates so he could loot more money when he fucked their shit up.
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>>580496
>>came from relatively modest birth
>Stopped reading right there. No matter what else you got correct, you'll always be a scrub in my book, cupcake.
He totally did, he was patrician, but he was a poor patrician, with Julii being less relevant than it had been in 400 years.
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>>580625
No, even if he was a poor patrician he was still part of the right circles and had access to education and legal rights, slaves and the poor had no chance at.
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>>580169
This is a stupid meme, romans were homophobic, there's no way around that, it was a taboo, and in military campaigns some consuls even killed soldiers that engaged in buggery.
Just because it happened and wasn't dealt with the same was as christians would doesn't mean everyone was totally greek about it.
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>>580183
>irrumare
??? Wouldn't it be irrumatio?
Anyone speaking latin that can explain the destinction?
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>>580201
Marius and Sulla were better than Pompeii and Caesar was probably even better than that.
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>>580606
Hannibal is considered the father of strategy and the ambush, and his accomplishments versus a vastly superior nation, I think stand far higher than Sulla or Marius who had the full support of Rome and its massive population. Pyrrhus's, and Hannibal won some of the most astounding victories in the Mediterranean, with anything close to the backing of Rome. Only Ceaser in many of his far flung campaigns in Gaul or during the civil wars had to deal with anything close.

>>580634
Except historians can only confirm one Roman emperor didn't have any male lovers, and can confirm to the greatest degree of certainty that a number did.
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>>580625
No patrician, no matter how poor, could be considered of modest birth.
Catiline's father and grandfather were never in the Senate, they stooped to farming fucking oysters to make a living.
Sulla's dad was an alcoholic wastrel and he reportedly sold his ass for money in his youth, and never amounted to anything until he inherited his mistress's shit at the tender young age of 31 or 32.
Caesar's aunt was married to fucking Gaius Marius, THE Gaius Marius, seven times consul and savior of Rome from the Germans. Sulla MAY have been his other aunt's husband. His grandfather was at least in the Senate, his grandfather's nephews were well on the cursus honorum to becoming consuls. His mother's father was a dead war hero, his mother's uncle and adoptive father had been consul, her mother was a consul's sister, and that consul had been married to the sister of Marcus Livius Drusus, the famous censor who helped wreck Gaius Gracchus and whose son was infamously assassinated (this is way later, though).

And no matter how low Catiline or Sulla fell, practically every noble in Rome knew who they were: patricians. Destitute, but patricians.

And now tell me that Caesar was considered to be of modest birth. All it takes with that blood and connections is a little push in the right direction, instead of the titanic effort somebody like Marius or Pompey's dad required.
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>>580629
That is RELATIVELY modest, yeah. All his predecessors were in the same exact position, and yet, it had taken 400 years since one of them was consul when he was born (I believe one of his uncles beat him to it though)
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>>580647
>Except historians can only confirm one Roman emperor didn't have any male lovers, and can confirm to the greatest degree of certainty that a number did.
>the late roman republic
????
And Caesar wasn't an emperor.
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>>580653
Herp Derp roman culture changed instantly when Caeser took over, also Caeser was not an emporer. Augustus was the first.

>>580652
This could took the time that I didnt to blow you out >>580649
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>>580653
They say Claudius.

But Augustus was so anal about upholding the ancient Republican moral purity and monogamy that I just don't see him taking any lover.
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>>580653

Sulla openly had a male lover as well.
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>>580666
>openly
No, he hid it for quite a long time. Metrobius was a relationship that probably went back to before he was senator.
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>>580664
I think that was honestly mostly an act, to help shore up the cult of personality he was constructing to legitimize he rule. A way to elevate himself. Now obviously what i just said could be 100 shit, because people had real privacy back then. But claiming the moral superiority of the ancestors is a still used tactic to legitimize oneself, just look at modern conservatives.
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>>580663
Ah, moving goalposts I see. Here's what was originally written:

>Came from relatively modest birth to become arguably the most iconic statesman in history

When you consider other men such as Marius, Sulla, and the Gracchi brothers, Caesar was a scrub when it came to rising to heights despite a modest birth.

Also that post is completely wrong. Caesar's grandfather on his mother's side was a consul, and his dad's cousins were already high in government and became consuls a few years after his birth.

So actually you can blow me, not blow me out.

>>580669
Well as soon as he retired it became open.

>>580675
True, I just think it'd be hard enough to hide with all the slaves sneaking around and talking to each other, that he'd not risk it. He doesn't seem like the type of person that would enjoy sex. Too cold and politically driven.
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>>579755
I enjoyed it, underrated compared to the frontline classics that people know, though probably one of the more performed in the repertoire.
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>>580680
>Well as soon as he retired it became open.
Why would he give a shit then?
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guys it might seem highly tin-foiled but could there be that there were two julius caesars?
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>>580692
There were tens.
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>>580629
He said relatively faggot. Modest among patricians.
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>>579930
>cleopatra

>be king of Judea
>go to egypt
>go to palace
>ask if mark is in, haven't hung out forever
>cleopatra comes to the door and says he's out
>okay.kaballah
>head home and start building shit because whatever lmao
>find out mark was in egypt at the time
>cleo is trying to come between me and mark
>mfw

she's stealing my friend, what do i do /his/?
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>>580691
Because of his career, Anon. He already had something of a reputation for degeneracy and partying, living with his stepmother and mistress both under one roof. It was only by assuring people that the boozing and whoring was caused by lack of money that he became a senator.

After that he rose to prominence with Gaius Marius's support, then really became his own man during the Social War, completely one of the two fronts and devastating Campania and Samnium.

Then other shit happened but, long story short, openly having gay lovers (or any lovers for that matter) as such a high profile general and politician was inviting disaster. As far as I know he was either so careful or so abstinent (except with his wives, slaves, and maybe some prostitutes here and there) that the gay lovers thing was considered a Populare rumor by the end of his dictatorship.

So in the end, his lack of care for anything anymore, and his wicked sense of humor caused the huge reveal, a mighty scandal, and the laughter of all Rome that these morally righteous, tightass, conservative Optimates had followed an alcoholic bisexual degenerate...into saving the Republic.
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>>580719
but that's the point, isn't it? There'd be no punchline if rome wasn't homophobic.
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>>580625
It couldn't have been that bad for him, his uncle Sextus Julius Caesar was a consul.
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I thought his letters home while taking Gaul were pretty funny. He pretty much tells Rome he's going to get there, fuck shit up, and do it in style. And if they only knew how baller he is going to be after doing it.
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>>579826
>1:02
>High Ground
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>>580634
Claudius was shunned because he was the first roman emperor that didn't like to bang boys.
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>>580641
Irrumare is the infinite form of the verb, irrumatio is the noun of the act

Irrumare: to fellate aggressively
Irrumatio: aggressive fellatio
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>>581149
Was it not because he was a retard who got cucked really hard.
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>>581149
claudius was autistic or something
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>>581157
I see. so it basically didn't matter in context.
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>>579755
You wot mate
"Rome" Caesar is best Caesar
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>>579822
>>580621
Is it true he also got raped by pirates too? I heard that somewhere, I can't find it though.
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>>581295
Masters of Rome Caesar best Caesar.
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>>581310
That's a book, I meant acting/portrayal wise.
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>>579755
>Caesar
He's literally, LITERALLY, the hero of the plebs.

That should tell you all you need to know.
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>>579930
Source? Everyone keeps saying this but I doubt she was ugly. I mean even if she wasn't a bombshell, as a queen she could afford to make her self look good.
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>>579808
That's was mostly in Egypt though and they did have black warriors and slaves. I think Rome did a better job of this as I said here>>581295
I will admit all the British actors is pretty annoying plus Octavian and Octavia have blondish hair AND blue eyes which is pretty unacceptable.
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>>581310
Caesar Strabo best Caesar
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>>581365
The busts and coins where her face appears ahow she has a big nose and an ugly face. There might be written records about it but I don't know. She knew almost ten languages though but not Latin.
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>>581407
Couldn't they have been propaganda or were they commissioned by her?
I know she was intelligent too, but still she must have been pretty based to get guys back then to want to fuck her over her brains and skills.
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>>580183
>that pic
damn
everybody find a twink fuck toy now and disregard women except to breed
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>>581422
>I know she was intelligent too, but still she must have been pretty based to get guys back then to want to fuck her over her brains and skills.
women are not intelligence beyond knowing that most men, weak men, will live to satisfy women
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>>581332
That's a book portraying caesar in a certain way, you faggot.
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>>580084
For some reasons Alesia always reminds me of Torres Vedras.
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>>581422
>to get guys back then to want to fuck her over her crown and queendom*
FTFY. She could have been an ogress and Caesar would have fucked her, as long as she had a crown. The guy was obsessed with fucking high status women.
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>>581505
He could have just fucked her sister in that case.
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>>581464
>Knew more than 10 languages,
>Country was prosperous
>She only manipulated enemies sexually Sauce?

Seriously just stop.
Also you just claimed in contrary to this thread, that Caesar is "weak" in that way.
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>>581465
I'm talking about live portrayals that would have been closer to how that book and other writings described him.
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>>581430
"Rome was right with their perceptions on most things". Let's do as the Romans do even outside of Rome =^)
Let me guess, you're okay infanticide?
>>
>>581524
But it's a fictional work giving a unique portrayal of how he might have been. it's just as much a stand-alone caesar, regardless of live actor.
>>
>>580653
There point was an response to you( or anon) that Rome in general was homophobic, which it was not.
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>>579808
This is perhaps, the greatest irony in history and the final form of germanic revenge.
>>
>>581336
More like the extorter of the blind.

Pompey did nothing wrong.
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>>581275
No, cluodious was fine, but he was blind. With such a weakness, the senate knew they could assasinate him and they greatly enjoyed doing assasinations.
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>>581551
He was a drooling twitching cripple that got cucked by two wives and murdered by another. Aside from that he was alright.
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>>580496

His family was pretty mush destitute and out of favour by patrician standards when he was young. I know the mere fact that he was patrician put him well beyond 99% of Romans, but within the patrician class his beginnings were RELATIVELY modest. Most other patrician consuls had a much more wealthy and glorious family than he did.
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>>581730
>>580625
How was he able to be elected Aedile and succeed if he was a poor patrician?
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>>579814
Alesia you fucking dolt
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>>581758

>Excessive borrowing. He borrowed so much money that he literally had to run away from his debtors on occasion.
>Political alliance with Crassus, who was the richest man in Rome.
>His conquest of Gaul gave him vast amounts of wealth and slaves.

Those were Caesar's main money makers.
>>
As a general, yes i would say hes overrated, as rome produced many better. As everything else he was, fuck no.

Perhaps the greatest opportunist that ever lived
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>>581769

This. Up until he was elected governor of Spain he was deep, deep in debt, and he only kept his creditors at bay by the aforementioned Crassus alliance and by constantly advancing up the cursus honorum - and even then, he wasn't fully able to pay his debts until the Gallic wars.

On the day that he was up for election as pontifex maximus, he reportedly stated that he would either return home as pontifex maximus, or not at all.
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>>580773
But Rome was homophobic? I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing your point here. Certainly they tolerated a citizen taking the active role in gay sex with a noncitizen, but at best there'd be some jokes or snickering, and at worst it would lose him elections and business deals.

>>581310
>>581401
I'm on the fence about this one. On the one hand, Masters of Rome Caesar is a REALLY freaking Mary Sue Caesar, on the other hand he was an absolute madman, and on the third hand Caesar Strabo and (to a lesser extent) Catulus Caesar (especially during the Social War) weren't bad either.

>>581730
>>581769
>>581917
This is explained like four times in the thread. You know that Catiline and Sulla couldn't have gotten loans to buy a fucking loaf of bread? Do you know why? No collateral, no relatives in the Senate or as consuls, no fucking uncle being THE Gaius Marius.

Caesar wasn't born to a relatively modest family. Compared to what others (Marius, Sulla, the Gracchi, even Catiline to an extent) did starting out with less, he had a completely normal birth.
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>>582047
But there was no concept of homosexuality vs/ heterosexuality though. What you mean by some "possible jokes/snickering" depends on who is on top and whose on bottom. Also, men who strictly have sex with other men and no one else. This is obviously a frowned upon in general society since he is expected to get married and have legitimate children (same sex couples were not allowed to marry, probably for this reason).
At best, most Romans were serial monogamist "bisexuals" with a "preference(in most cases)" for the opposite sex.
See
Artemidorus Dreams
He talks about a dream that forbodes that A man will on want male attention "and not do unto women as he ought to" as in it's bad to only prefer men.
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>>581769
>his debtors
Creditors, you dumb shit.
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>>581758
>literally told the pirates he was captured by that they should ask for more ransom from the senate
>then when he got the army to take retribution on the pirates he looted the ransom.
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>>581769
>Crassus, who was the richest man in Rome.
Try all of world history.
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>>582047
>Masters of Rome Caesar is a REALLY freaking Mary Sue Caesar,
Caesar of real life was Mary Sue.
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>>582047
>But Rome was homophobic? I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing your point here. Certainly they tolerated a citizen taking the active role in gay sex with a noncitizen, but at best there'd be some jokes or snickering, and at worst it would lose him elections and business deals.
My point is that you're responding to someone that is arguing that Rome is homophobic.
>>
no you filthy fucking celtshit he was a great man
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>>581543
also proof that germanics are fucking niggers with their we wuz romans n shiet revisionism
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>>582275
That's for the general person. Somebody aspiring to the consulship, censorship, pontificate, or even status as princeps senatus had to have an impeccable bearing and dignity. This means only sex with the wife, or slaves or whores when on campaign.

>>582348
Well I don't think he was a Mary Sue to that extent.

>>582355
Oh. I really don't see it, but okay.
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>>582686
>Well I don't think he was a Mary Sue to that extent.
If anything McCullough was underplaying him. Caesar was literally the greatest person that has and ever will exist. Ten times better at anything than anyone else will ever be.
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>>582302

>Who is Mansa Musa?
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>>582703
We don't know how much of that is Principate era propaganda, though.
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>>579755
how could the 2nd greatest politician in the history be overrated?
Augustus was the greatest
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>>581422
yes, 2 of the most powerfull men in ancient times, fucked cleopatra for her brains and not for her being the queen of the grainstore of the etire mediteranian world
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>>583407
Less rich. Mansa Musa was rich as fuck, but there's no genuine estimates, it was probably a ton of embellishment, and even that embellishment pales in comparison to the actual reality of crassus wealth. Mansa Musa could load tens of camels with hundreds of pounds of gold for a shopping trip? Crassus could probably move a million pounds of gold if need be.
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>>580680
Augustus was well know to basically fuck any attractive female near him, I've never read about him fucking boipussy, but that dude was a horn dog
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