>>534269 Good. What does that entail philosophically? Can we express thoughts without language? If we can it has big implications for a lot of schools of thought. Unless music is just another form of language
>>534199 Music can be used to convey information in an artful manner. Take movie scores for example; the general intention is essentially to express the tone of a situation behind what's actually happening. It can sometimes change the way one watches a scene.
Music conveys feeling more directly than language. It can't express a systematic philosophy of life but it can express life itself, which is more important. The best philosophies of life revere that ineffability, anyways
>>534333 I doubt this. Not everyone feels the same feelings listening to only a score, and most shitty people associate more with lyrics than any emotion derived from the beat, melody, tone or score. Those just aid the lyrics.
If you removed the lyrics from crawling in my skin, you would not get the feeling of crawling in your skin.
>>534377 >and most shitty people associate more with lyrics than any emotion derived from the beat, melody, tone or score.
I disagree. if you're talking about pop, club, rap, shit like that, it's the beat that makes it. the lyrics are just dressing.
the production creates the mood (or rather, a mood spectrum), and the lyrics just hone in on a certain slice of that spectrum. that's why mash-ups, remixes, etc. work. even if it's the lyrics from a totally different song, if they "fit" with the beat, it still works.
Beat etc. is stimulus, not emotion certain sounds don't convey emotions, as much as they evoke a certain response. A gunshot, thunder, the clashing of steel, etc can evoke emotions, but the specific emotional response is up to the individual, because they are all simply stimuli.
>>534417 And the Mona Lisa isn't art at the bottom of the ocean, so what? All it takes is an iconic melody to turn up a club to 11 because humans feel certain emotions when they hear certain sounds. But rocks don't. Okay. So.
>>534429 >All it takes is an iconic melody to turn up a club to 11 because humans feel certain emotions when they hear certain sounds. Just as often as not, for most music, it's a sense of nostalgia, and association with a certain emotion, not conveyed by the music, but attached to the music by the listener, turning the music into a simple stimulus.
>>534449 it can inspire you, it can evoke a certain feeling for life, definitely, but it can't be thorough and systematic unless someone's literally singing stoic adages or whatever. I'm not saying that's a bad thing.
>>534488 >And the sun isn't objectively bright because rocks don't have eyes to see its light. >All it takes is an iconic melody to turn up a club to 11 because humans feel certain emotions when they hear certain sounds. Your examples are stupid. If someone hears the Star Wars theme song, it evokes the Star Wars abstract token, because Star Wars is associated with the music for the listener, and the emotions evoked are those related to the concept of Star Wars. If the same score was never associated with Star Wars, it would not have those emotions associated with it. That's not conveying feeling directly.
Music can't be a language without a context. Does the word "fuck" mean something if you don't know english? No, it's just a sound you emitted. See? Words are just short music clips which carry a meaning within a shared context, remove the context and you'll just have a sound.
>but some songs make me feel fear/joy/despair Feelings are subjective and dependent on the environment in which you grew in: if during your life you heard metal music during weddings, listening "Hammer Smashed Face" on the altar wouldn't feel so out of place and you would have associated it to the act of wedding. That's an extreme example, but that would convey better my thought.
>>534199 there are chomskyan linguists who have investigated that idea. MIT's david pesetsky is one example of someone who thinks music is a byproduct of language. ray jackendoff is a linguist from tufts who has a different model. it's a very open topic.
>>534199 Music can express emotion and impact the listener. So in a sense >>534269 but not entirely. They're hardly a 1 to 1 comparison, music can set a mood really well, something words can't always do
>>534519 Star Wars is based off Wagner and several other "epic" composers, go listen to Holst's OP. 32, some Berlioz, then Wagner's Overtures, you get a lot of the same feelings
>>535360 that's not what people are talking about when they're talking about the relationship between music and language. they're not asking "is music A language," they're asking if the phenomenon of music and the phenomenon of language are fundamentally products of the same cognitive capacity.
>>535418 language is a formal system like the visual system or any other cognitive capacity. communication happens to be one way it's used, but that's not fundamental to it. don't take my word for it though, there's a ton of peer-reviewed literature on this you can find for free.
the function of language is the sharing of information. Humans that are not exposed to language during the critical period are later unable to learn it - that is, to encode information from it - properly.
language = information code
there's plenty of peer reviewed articles on it for you to find for free.
>language is a formal system like the visual system or any other cognitive capacity.
Humans acquire language socially, they acquire the sense of sight through physical maturation.
Of course, a human must have a brain mature enough to acquire language - the but point is that language is acquired through human interaction, not through solitary physical maturation.
>>535539 could be. chomskyan linguistics holds that language is essentially at least binary set formation, and people who believe there's a connection between music and language in that framework think that the difference could be what you're building sets out of. in language it's thought to be lexical items.
>>535473 Coomunicating ideas is not the main aim of poetry, its for it's own sake as a beautiful thing: Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the wabe: All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe.
This is a really good question. I have no idea what to answer.
As far as I know, categories of chords such as major, minor, diminished, and dom 7th all invoke unilateral feelings and tendencies in humans.
I can't get a feel to Indian music though due to quarter step progressions being completely foreign to my Western ear. Maybe this is like the concept of application of foreign systems like that of cases to an English speaker. This maybe means that there are different "languages of music" or musicks or whatever.
The Tractarian Vicky would tell you that music occupies the realm whereof we cannot speak.
Vicky 2.0 would probably start talking about the occupants of a desert island and how they might in theory develop a system of pre-understood significance to various notes and sequences of notes, before stating that the empirical investigation of the actual origin of language (ie, its acquisition by our ape-like ancestors) belongs properly to the sciences.
I think the idea behind mathematics being a language is the notion that there is no concrete state of affairs which can't be described mathematically. Define 'language' however you will, but it's clear there are potential definitions whereby mathematics would qualify.
People talk about similarities between mathematics and music, but I think that's largely down to music being describable mathematically.
>>537264 he means formal in the mathematical sense. the goal of someone trying to answer OP's question is to look at precise definitions of language and music using concepts developed in math and philosophy, and to try to show that they are either fundamentally different or the same.
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