If we start from anarchy, autocracy is the first system that will inevitably form naturally. Someone will amass enough power to control everyone else. This is done for the glory of that individual.
At some point the populace is able to remove the autocrat or the autocrat's power collapses in any number of ways. The people probably realize that if they don't institute another government, they will simply to have reset to anarchy, which naturally gives way to another dictator. So they institute a democracy to stop the cycle repeating.
So government comes as a result of the fact that someone will always try to gain power.
I believe it is to streamline, A tax is paid to one entity and then you can use that entities roads, water systems, parks, Hospitals and public transport, you also have access to fire response and police at your disposal
All from paying a single entity
I propose government exists only because our lives are easier with it in place
>>513923 I propose that most of the products and services you enjoy and consider of high quality come from private enterprise, and those of lesser quality, higher cost, waste and inefficiency come from public powers. Therefore, there's no reason to think that the products and services you mentioned couldn't be better supplied by the market (provided that they actually had time to develop in the market, instead of privatizing inefficient models)
>>513958 Problem with certain goods/services is that they can be seen quite necessary to modern life (like education, not necessary to life, but necessary to modern life). And while private sector could provide and does provide these service, they also operate on profit margins. As individuals have different amounts of money to spend of education (wealth inequality). Now if at certain price level it is no reason for anyone to provide education, as it wouldn't cover the basic necessary costs (salaries, rents, and such), this would create a subclass of people who couldn't access education, eventually making them 2nd class citizens. Now while this would be almost wonderful for ruling elite, generally it hasn't been that for the society as a whole. This is why extracting tax money from the society and providing education to all peers equally is seen beneficial to society as a whole.
Now, while I don't fully agree with all taxation is theft (georgism for example). There are limit to what public has to suffer for individual. If you live in bumfuck nowhere, I don't see that state is forced to provide the service to you there, rather than you moving to the service.
the government and similar local organizations can provide some services and welfare to a degree of efficiency but it could never do so in every aspect of the economy and it ought not to since freedom is inherently valuable, to use a meme as an example, imagine if the government dictated that it is utilitarian to kill people to harvest their organs if it saves 2 or more lives, that brings up some ethical dilemmas
>>514021 Sure, conceding the social benefits of education, and the material necessity of government to get involved, there is no reason for government to both finance and provide education. It could simply finance it through the transfer of funds to private institutions, this way you get the benefit of market incentives and spontaneous order, while avoiding the waste, inefficiency, bad planning, and corruption associated with anything public.
>>514063 Well, criminals exists in every system. Not to mention, in a more developed, modern economy, he would have plenty of competition to laugh him off business. If there was no public fire department, I'd wager insurance companies would quickly step in, after all, putting out a fire is much cheaper than paying for damages (or paying for legal services in order to avoid paying for damages).
Then again, nobody should expect a service without paying for it.
>>514076 I never said so in this thread, tho I do believe taxation is theft. Baka, its not like I wanted some discussion or anything.
>>514046 Education has been one of the largest contributors to well being here in west. People learn about world, they don't believe in old wives tales as much, generally act more reasonably. This has led to overall increase in safety, higher living expectancy, more productivity.
>>514052 Now, you make assumption that all state controlled is automatically inefficient. Not necessary. And doesn't USA already do this with healthcare? It provides insurance for people who then visit private sector with the guarantee that the state pays for it. Problem is just, how do you make sure the private sector doesn't take extra or that the funds are enough to cover the actual costs.
Important questions, yet seems almost impossible to answer.
>>514131 Well you have shit loads of material justifying taxation, but what I find one of the most convincing one is Geoism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism) To give you in short, because goods X is finite (whether it is land, or radiowaves) and you did not create this said goods (the earth was here before us and radiowaves operate independently of humans). By using these goods you are effectively stealing from the humanity as whole because if you farm corn in a land, I cannot farm it, and if you didn't create the land, how can you claim real ownership over it, you merely own the improvement made on the land. That's why taxing this blocking of finite common goods to other people isn't theft.
>>514134 >Education has been one of the largest contributors to well being here in west If you mean the well being of the entire populace as opposed to a segment of it, I'd argue that that is no one's concern but the people unable to afford such things.
If you mean the well being of the nation, I'm not entirely sure about the effects. Europe certainly achieved great things with a relatively small educated population, and it seems too soon to say with regards to mandatory education for everyone.
>>514131 A thief takes without giving in return, a state takes and gives if it wants to remain in power. Your disagreement over the unsigned contract by birth can be arguable, but then again there's nothing stopping you from becoming a hobo and/or refusing to use the public services we have.
Counter arguments to what? That taxation is justified because YOU didn't create the natural resources/the land? Guess what, neither did your government. It's an argument so stupid it's not even worth wasting time on holy fuck.
Like some humans (the government) operate above all other humans and nature so they should be able to tax you, uh?
>>514183 Mandatory education in Europe has been for some time though (late 19th century), it is not a new fad.
Now obviously as we are talking about social sciences here, cant' really say how much does education increase safety (crime has gone down), lifespan, productivity or wealth inequality. But it certainly has effects on it.
>>514214 Given that the US has more people seeking to become citizens than any other state on the planet, apparently a lot of people disagree with you about US citizenship being worth the taxes.
A government exists because of the consent of the governed. If it doesn't do that, you should use violence to rectify that fact.
If you can't deal with the fact that you have to obey the rules that society has collectively agreed upon, guess what? You're fucked. In any human society, there's shit you have to put up with to get protection. Humans are social creatures. You are not a special snowflake.
>>514214 Unless you live in a tyrannical dictatorship, your government is you (the people). People collectively own the lands that belong to the said nation. But as there are finite amount of land (in a nation, and earth as a whole) by owning land you are effectively blocking access to other citizens, thus paying rent for this is perfectly viable. Now however if you live in dictatorship, perhaps you should overthrow your government and start a new one. It's not necessary a tax, but rent for using common goods, and in return state gives you protection over said common goods, I can't come to your corn field to steal your corn.
Or are we going to dwell on the ever ending "lul all governments are evil".
The government is a group of people, it's not me, it's not you, it's not 99.9999% of anyone else. There's so much stupid shit that governments do that the majority doesn't agree with, but rarely are there people to pay for the many mistakes caused by the government.
Taxes are not justified because there's land and resources, that's such a stupid argument, nor is it viable.
You can come to my corn field any day and steal my corn, it's not like the government has placed a bunch of guard patrolling my corn fields 24/7 to protect me from the likes of you.
You seem to implicate that the standard of living in America compared to Somalia is because America has a government and Somalia doesn't.
People don't choose America because of the government, rather because of the opportunities in the private sector, mostly, which the government has very little to do with.
You also seem to implicate that because one doesn't agree with taxation he should move to some thirld world shithole, based on.. what?
All these stupid "arguments" makes my brain hurt honestly.
The government getting involved in anything has rarely turned out positive, as history as taught us, the government stealing peoples wealth does not help in any regard other than creating more power for the few people in government over those who are not in the government.
>>514291 I'm actually the guy you were replying to. But if "human nature" is to blame for people not being able to behave, it seems silly, to create coercive power structures for the same people you couldn't trust to behave when equals.
>>514279 You still haven't given any other counter-argument other than "that's such a stupid argument" and "taxation just is theft".
Now if I steal from your corn (and let's say you know it was me, and you have an eyewitness to this event), you take it to court (the government) who then judges based on law what is done to those who steal from others. Having law doesn't prevent theft, but gives tools to punish it.
You do realise we are talking about in theory here, not real life government, as they are much more complex than what 4chan pasting (and attention span) allows. You might want to learn about state of nature more if you want to learn about justification of government (and thus taxation), which this thread originally was about.
>>514248 Rousseau was a fool- he believed that children were a perfect representation of the beauty of human nature.
Have you ever been a camp counselor? Children are inherently competitive and hierarchical. Girls are petty and socially competitive, and boy's generally defer to one Alpha kid.. Humans are apriori assholes- just look at nature and natural selection. Why would we be uniquely good among the animals? It's nonesense.
Morality has increased with civilization, not decreased
>>514302 A private sector can't exist without a government though.
If a company like Walmart or McDonalds tried to operate in Somalia, they'd just get robbed by warlords. The only way they could keep their stores operating and their supply lines open is by hiring muscle, in effect becoming their own government.
At that point once they developed a superiority of force, there's nothing to stop them from levying their own taxes on the native population instead of bothering to sell them things.
Government will naturally come to exist. It's an extension of the primordial needs for security and justice that all human societies exist to provide. With complexity will come rent-seeking and abuse of power. This is still vastly less costly than anarchy.
>You also seem to implicate that because one doesn't agree with taxation he should move to some thirld world shithole, based on.. what?
Isn't it weird how the only places without taxation are third world shitholes? I wonder why that is.
>The government getting involved in anything has rarely turned out positive
In this country, we tried not having the government intervene in the economy.
It resulted in the Great Depression.
We tried not having the government intervene in foreign affairs.
It resulted in World War 2.
TL;DR Your ideology is autistic as fuck. You are literally unable to comprehend the mechanics of human society. I unironically suspect you of having some form of developmental disorder.
What counter argument do you want? Are you so stupid that you actually justify taxation because the earth wasn't made by man, so man should pay taxes to a government because they didn't create the land they walk on? That's new level retardness.
Having laws doesn't require a government to steal wealth from people. You yourself say laws doesn't prevent theft, so the government doesn't protect me, yet I want the government because it.. protects me?
>>514326 We have democracies today because the founders of those democracies realized that government was inevitable. Recognizing that a coercive power structure will always develop, they resolved to at least hold off an autocracy.
This was the period of classical liberalism and the resulting philosophy is that governments should try to protect the rights of their citizens and stave off the accumulation of too much power by individuals.
Plenty of states in the US with very low or no taxes at all that are doing fine, third world doesn't correlate to taxes.
You tried having the government interfere in the economy, and look at the US (and as a result, also many followed, the world economy) today. It's in complete shambles, the US economy is absolutely horrible. The next crash is coming, since it's inevitable and it's going to be way bigger than the 07-08 crash, you know, the crash caused by the government interfering with the economy?
>>514342 Good grief this is just getting silly. You didn't even open the link about geoism did you, for now on we shall not call it tax but rent. Rent for land you use to grow potatoes. Not a tax, but rent to society. Happy now? No taxes only rents.
>>514362 Hume points out that this has literally never happened.
"My intention here is not to exclude the consent of the people from being one just foundation of government where it has place. It is surely the best and most sacred of any. I only contend that it has very seldom had place in any degree and never almost in its full extent. And that therefore some other foundation of government must also be admitted."
How can it be rent when the people you are paying the rent to aren't the ones who created the land or the resources? Since its justified because you didn't create it, why should you pay someone else who also didn't create it?
What if I own the land, do I have to pay a rent to some society as well? Because the society happens to exist?
>>514332 Animals of one species don't senselessly kill eachother. Animals don't have feuds or wage war. Neither do humans in the state of nature. War, feuds and murder are motivated by insulted pride or violation of property, both of which are only exist in society. In the state of nature the only situation in which a human kills another is in self-defense.
>>514398 Because your usage of the land blocks me from using it... I did explain this once. And because there isnt enough land för everyone, you pay rent for the land which forces you to do sometging productive with the land to cover the cost and the potential the society as a whole could gather from that land, its rocket science
>>514376 "The founders of those democracies" is not the same as the populace. They were the people in power at the time, they just happened to believe in limiting their own power and that of their successors.
>>514414 Tribal human populations in the amazon, as well as archaeological evidence, has shown that people have been violently killing each other for a long, long time. We wiped out the neanderthals and raped their women for christsakes.
Its easy to think violence is nonsensical in modern society because of the amount of abundance we live in, but in ye olden days people had to compete to survive (and fuck). Reality is a fucking bitch mate, not a fairy tale
>>514431 Because i (as member of society) have same right as you do to that land? But as only one of us can access it, he who owns that land pays rent for using common good. Better example would be polluting, by what right can you pollute if you dont pay back to society
>>514414 Also, on the origin and prevalence of human warfare >Human's were the apex species as early as 100,000 years ago. >Spread across the globe and reproduced. >When a species has outcompeted all other's, the only logical competition left is itself. >Tribal warfare arises out of desire for mates and resources, and is made possible because we are a social species that creates "units" made of many individuals
>>514495 >When a species has outcompeted all other's, the only logical competition left is itself Wrong chimps kill eachother even when they have predators. Our early human ancestors were racist psychopaths who would strangle babies from different tribes once they realized it. You seem to have forgot that hominids can form multiple different tribal cultures that conflict with eachother meaning even while neanderthallensis existed we were still killing eachother in Africa for territory.
>>514518 I never said that intra-species competition doesn't happen before a species dominates an environment- just that it becomes much more prevalent.
>Our early human ancestors were racist psychopaths Modern humans are still very capable of being racist psychopaths- Imagine an apocolyptic happening takes place, and the world's carrying capacity is now a billion individuals. Do you think 7 billion people are going to have a rational conversation about who gets to live? No, the strong will survive, the weak will die.
Morality is only possible (on a global scale) because of abundance- nothing more.
>>514551 We have our racist psychopath behavior before we even walked on two legs, monkeys will murder opposing tribes for dominance. Racism is just a form of tribalism that is more visually easier to see.
Example of tribalism The Bloods killing the crips Christians kill Muslims
Example of racism 1(looks the same but minor cultural differences): Brits killing French people
Example of racism 2(looks similar but different): Brits killing Asian people
Example of racism 3(looks a little bit similar but very different): Brits enslaving and mass murdering Black people
Example of racism 4(looks somewhat similar but no really and different): Brits killing the Abos
Example of racism 5(looks close to you): Humans killing chimps and monkeys
Example of racism 6: HUmans killing mammals
Example of racism 7: Humans killing vertebrates
Example of racism 8(a completely alien being that looks nothing like you) Humans killing invertebrates/plants/fungus/bacteria/viruses/protist/ and of course extraterrestials.
Racism 8 is the reason we humans dont give a shit if we kill insects but suddenly cry if we see a hurt mammal.
>What is the purpose of agriculture? Because I am too concerned with my own life to grow my own food and crops.
>What is the purpose of education? Because I am too concerned with my own life to teach my children everything they need.
>What is the purpose of a military/police/emergency services? Because I am too concerned with my own life to train myself and fight for my own piece of land effectively.
In all walks of life, when you gather people and properties for a common goal, then the result becomes greater than the sum of their parts, as it were. By extension, the government is there because I don't have the time/knowledge of society to distribute wealth to schemes that need it. I am not a voted man, and what I feel is the best use money may not be the average best for a nation.
>but a politician doesn't know any better You see, they do. They are voted for by the people, they learnt what is best at school and their job is literally to move this money. Yes, there is corruption, but the overwhelming majority of government workers do their job and do it well.
Sorry if I sound a tad defensive, I last voiced this opinion on /pol/ and they jumped down my throat with how "the government is corrupt" and "we need to live in anarchy to be free" etc.
The issue is you're approaching it from a "lets get of taxes today" point of view. Of course that own't work because people don't know how to live without the state. This is the major issue everyone seems to forget: ANY situation or system of state will be the way it is because of the people and their culture. Somalians know how to survive Anarchy because they had it for thousands of years prior to imperial rule. The Brehons knew how to keep the peace without central authority because that knowledge passed down from their ancestors on how to do so. Westerners understand the value of Capitalism because we were raised in it and taught how it works.
The government will uprooted naturally when people learn how to live without it. There are methods of doing this, but they require a culture that accepts it. There are theoretical systems of law that are voluntary, such as DROs (dispute resolution organizations) that not "enforce" rules at gunpoint, but will enforce them through refusal to cooperate, denial of service and self-defense if you are being violent.
Its not a matter of "can't afford". If they exist, people will be to afford them because its inefficient if they can't. Voluntary law can appear freely, because it is in the interests of businesses such as DROs and banks that violence and crime are not tolerated. It costs the DRO money to resolve disputes and a bank's wealth is tied to its society, because it must make money of investments. Hard to do if people are shooting and killing each other.
Anarchy is possible in countless ways, you just don't know how to do it so you assume its impossible, like most people.
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