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You are currently reading a thread in /his/ - History & Humanities

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>tfw yahweh was just one of the many caananite gods

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion#Beliefs

What does /his/ think of this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg

He goes over the history of how the Old Testament was written in relation to how gods were viewed at the time, and why. Basically, from wiki:

>In the oldest biblical literature, Yahweh is a typical ancient Near Eastern "divine warrior" who leads the heavenly army against Israel's enemies;[6] he later became the main god of the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and of Judah,[7] and over time the royal court and temple promoted Yahweh as the god of the entire cosmos, possessing all the positive qualities previously attributed to the other gods and goddesses.[8][9] By the end of the Babylonian exile (6th century BCE), the very existence of foreign gods was denied, and Yahweh was proclaimed as the creator of the cosmos and the true god of all the world.[9]

Just learned about all this from pic related, I highly recommend it.
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Read that a couple years ago. It was interesting. Basically showed how Judiasm evolved over time, from polytheism to monotheism, with intermediate steps in between.

I seem to recall it did lend some credence to the idea that at least some influential founders of Israel immigrated into the Levant, since one of the names of the god of Israel (forget which one) was probably picked up on the Red Sea cost of Arabia.
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Old news. We've known for years that Judaism, just like any other religion, was slowly developed over time.

It's essentially Zoroastrianism mixed with Egyptian and Mesopotamian religious themes
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Also, here's another documentary about this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCXlFWBcxBo
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>>493501
>Zoroastrianism

I've been lurking for a while and hearing about this every now and then. What is it? How is it like Christianity?
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>>493316

Islam began in a very similar way

In pre-Islamic pagan Arabia God/Yahweh/Allah was recognised as the equivalent of Zeus of a pantheon that also included Baal.
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>>493587

It used to be the religion of Persia and practically invented the idea of life as a cosmic struggle between a good god and an evil god

Essentially it established a majority of the moral framework for all three of the major Abrahamic religions
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>>493615

Isn't that Manichaeism rather than straight-up Zoroastrianism
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>>493316
Religious Jews were triggered hard by the implication that Judaism was initially polytheistic
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>>493615
But anon, the ancient monotheistic Israelites were entirely comfortable attributing all things that happened to them - good and bad - as coming from their god. They believed that god would punish them for disobeying him or angering him (as when polytheism was rampant, and the Israelites' enemies fucked their shit up, they didn't blame anyone but themselves because god said they'd deserved it for their lack of loyalty), but would favor them if they obeyed him. That was the thing about their monotheism, if there was only one divine being responsible for everything he was responsible for every damn little thing, good or bad. This didn't make him good or evil, for god just *was,* and any attempt to understand him was impossible for mortal men in their minds.

There was no "good vs evil," that comes in later with Christianity's mingling with other Eastern religions in the Roman Empire. Satan became a catching point in this, whereas in the ancient Hebrew faith he was a loyal angel, but just a bit concerned that god was letting himself be taken advantage of by fickle humans. He fucked with one guy, trying to get him to renounce god, thinking the only reason he loved god was because god gave him nice things. When he failed and the man still loved god, Satan saw he had been wrong - god had given him permission to fuck with this guy and destroy his life, all to produce an outcome he already knew would happen. Dick move? Maybe, but god was neither good nor evil. A lot of people do think it's a dick move though, but because they believed god had to be good they assigned Satan as evil for his actions, which had been sanctioned by god.

Satan's role as a doubter of humanity's commitment to god - as seen when he approaches Jesus in the desert to test whether he really is committed to his faith - was instead recast as him being evil versus god's goodness.

So the ancient Hebrews were pretty unique, but didn't believe in real bad/good a dichotomy in divinity.
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>>493587
It's basically an older and more enlightened Christianity.

You have the 1 all powerful perfectly good God and he is opposed by a Satan figure who represents all the vices.

They have a nearly identical end-times with a ressurection, last judgement, heaven-on-earth, and a hell fire. Although hell isn't a place of torture, the fire is a cleansing agent that burns away evil, than once you are baptized in fire you can go to heaven. More evil people will be burned for longer and the Satan figure who has no redeeming qualities will be completely consumed and obliterated.
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>>493801
Interesting... So why did it die out?
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>>495574
Gradual conversion to islam until the conquests. Similar to Christians in levant-egypt.
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>>495610
delete it yourself you filthy newfag.
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>>493316
I was pretty unimpressed with that book.

Thing is it's hard to consider such claims as much beyond speculation as the roots of judaism really date back into a murky distant time/place.
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>>493712
Strictly speaking that's still true. Christian doctrine holds that pretty much everything outside of the actions of men is ordained by God.
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>>493801
So what about God becoming man, fully experiencing Humanity and bearing His just wrath towards our disobediance upon Himself lest we have to and the fact that Satan is infinitely less than God, not and never equal, and the only reason God lest him exist is because God loves everything He created and said love is what brought into existence everything and keeps in existance everything and if God stopped loving something it would cease ever existing?
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>>493801
Why do people always leave out the part where Zoroastrianism is a religion of quasi polytheistic fire worship?
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>>495735
Because it defeats their argument of "God of the Bible was not new and is just repackaged Zoroaster because we deep down know the God of the Bible is real but our pride refuses to let us accept it."

It's like those pricks who say shit like "Christ is just repackaged Horus/Mithras/Baldr/Quetzelquatl/Gozer the Gozerian/Momotaro/insert other deity here"
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>>493594
Allah was alone in the beginning. Then every Arab tribe wanted a flashy God of their own and started inserting them into poems and shit.
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>>495754
Achmed, please.
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>>495750
I phrased it like a question but i knew,
people will latch on to any dead ancient religion (gnosticism/mirthras/mazda etc.) if they can use it to make a thread and talk shit.
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>>493673
Christians are worshipping the Jewish god as well
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>>497986
It's weird because I am a Christian and don't pray to YHWH because the name doesn't exactly point to God.

I think Yahweh was a different god/demiurge and is responsible for the suffering of the material world, and Jesus teaches us the Way to Heaven and the salvation of our soul.
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>>498022

But you realise the prophecies that form the claim that Jesus is the messiah are based on come from the Old Testament, which specifically calls god Yahweh?

Christians haven't been lugging the OT around for the last 2000 years just for the embarassing genocide stories or because it gives the bible more weight when clunking heathens round the head.
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>>498044
The Bible is restored in Babylon after the Great Flood. In Revelation we are told to watch out for Mystery Babylon.

The name "YHWH" gets weaved into the Bible, and when you see the primary difference in OT god and NT God it begins to make sense.

Not all the time YHWH means some other lower deity, but the name, you begin to see it when you ask Jesus to show you.

Paul appearantly was a Gnostic as well.
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>>498022
Yahweh is the god of Moses and Abraham. Yahweh is the name given to God in the catechism. The only reason that God and yahweh became interchangeable is because the other gods were "killed off" politically as described in the OP
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>>498109
Not as a Gnostic, and Yahweh pointing to the Demiurge. The name was weaved in, somehow, but the message it is telling us now is the message that is most important.

So most Christians won't agree that the OT doesn't play as much, and it does but you have to consider the translation.

Jesus promises to send the Holy Spirit, and this is how you worship God in Spirit and not as a superficial deity.
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>>498200
>The name was weaved in, somehow,

Watch the video in OP
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>>500666
The nose knows

(also nice Satan trips)
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>>495760
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnanites
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>>500666
Kek.
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>>501422
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>>501455
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>>493673
I thought Judaism/Beginning Abarahamic Faiths were Henotheist.

>>493316
>Al the other Canaanite deities become irrelevant as time went on.
>Only one managed to survive and have half of humanity worship them.
Yaweh is a based god for surviving and winning the religion game, and deserves to be worshiped. I give him mass respect.
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>>503100
Yahweh is literally their god of war. tortured, robbed of their land and belongings, even killed. Before it achieved political power, Christianity was a small sect, a heresy against the Jewish faith, that had to accept equality among all the other religions of the Roman Empire. Yet it was the first religion to openly attack the religions of other people as false (the Jews, at least, were a little more tactful). Needless to say, Christianity only truly flourished when it had the ability to eliminate the competition—when it had the full support of Rome’s Emperors after 313 A.D., and when, in 395 A.D., every religion other than Christianity was actually outlawed. Through force and decree Christianity was immersed in the cultural surroundings of lands near and far, and in an environment where it was widely accepted, if not the only thing accepted, it spread and planted itself among subjugated peoples. As kids grew up taking Christian ideas for granted, they often did not realize that only a few generations ago those ideas were entirely alien.
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>>503117
utter-nonsense, Christianity was already flourishing prior to 313....it's a big reason Constantine picked it.
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>>503182
>flourishing

No, they were existing. And the desert fathers is not why he converted
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>IsraEL
>yfw they named an entire nation after the wrong god

whoops!
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>>505296
El isn't the name of a god, it means the word "god".
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>>506148
El was a Canaanite god, distinct from Yahweh. As El and Yahweh became merged it became another word for God, but it was originally a distinct being, a pagan god.
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>>493587
If you are interested in this question, I would look into Judaism post-Babylonian conquering, and compare it with pre-Babylonian conquering (also Assyrian conquering). Especially the stuff around Daniel. There are several key ways in which Judaism was becoming influenced by Persian religions, specially speaking the ideas of religious domain crept into Judaism after the conquering. Before the conquering, The Jewish God was limited to only the Kingdom of Israel/Judaea, However after the Zoroastrian/Persian influence, the Jewish God held religious domain over the entire earth.

This is a great example of how religious diffusion of ideas (in this case through military expansion and conquest) has altered religious perspectives and shared ideas.
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>>495735
It's basically the same meaning and sacred value as the crucifix in Christianity.
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>>507354
>El was a Canaanite god

Nope.
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>>493316
>some Hebrews pick up the deities of their captors, conquered peoples, and their neighbors
>worshiped them alongside/instead of Yahweh
>lel Yahweh was just another Canaanite god
>Christianity is a lie lel stupid Christians
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>>508109
Yup, he was Lord of hosts, god of the armies. Try using history on a history board.
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>>508109
Not really. The true doctrine of Christianity is about worship of God as the Holy Spirit and Jesus teaches and is the way to heaven.

Aside from churchianity, if you were to just read Jesus in NT you would have a very easy standard of life to live by.
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>>508069
>Specific deities known as El or Il include the supreme god of the Canaanite religion,[4] the supreme god of the Mesopotamian Semites in the pre-Sargonic period,[5] and the God of the Hebrew Bible.

>Before El's revelation with the name of Yahweh, it is said in Genesis 14:18–20 that Abraham accepted the blessing of El, when Melchizedek, the king of Salem and high priest of its deity El Elyon blessed him.[26] One scholarly position is that the identification of Yahweh with Ēl is late, that Yahweh was earlier thought of as only one of many gods, and not normally identified with Ēl. Another is that in much of the Hebrew Bible the name El is an alternate name for Yahweh, but in the Elohist and Priestly traditions it is conceived as an earlier name than Yahweh.

I think the book in the OP even goes over the details of El as the Canaanite god.
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>>508237
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)#Hebrew_Bible
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>>500666
I laughed
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>>508248
>>508237
From your link

>El is a generic word for god that could be used for any god, including Hadad, Moloch,[25] or Yahweh.
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>>508237
Watch the OP video. The Bible has been modified to make yahweh the supreme/only god
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>>493316
Also a good book on biblical historical accuracy (or lack thereof)
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>>508873
Yeah I know m8 that doesn't refute that there is a position that argues that El was a separate god that the Hebrews worshipped before he was assimilated into Yahweh. Here, again: >>508237

>One scholarly position is that the identification of Yahweh with Ēl is late, that Yahweh was earlier thought of as only one of many gods, and not normally identified with Ēl.

I'm not saying your position is wrong, I'm just saying that the position I have stated is not wrong. This >>508237 has both of our positions in the same paragraph to go over the viewpoints.
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They fought it out, the winner erased the competitors from history. Turns out the win was temporary and defeat looms.

I read this like:
>yfw when there was a dodo

Good riddance. Let something die to fertilize the soil and clear space for the better.
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>>511005
>El was a separate god that the Hebrews worshipped before he was assimilated into Yahweh

You're thinking of El Elyon
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>>507354

>El was a Canaanite god

El was the Supreme God in Mesopotamian, Levantine, Hurrian and Hittite Civilizations; He was not strictly a Canaanite God. Also, El is a generalistic theophoric title that can be bestowed to any individual deity or a collective of deities in Semitic Languages. For example, Ba'al is also an attributory term for "Lord" which can denote either Kings or Gods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28deity%29

>In northwest Semitic use, El was both a generic word for any god and the special name or title of a particular god who was distinguished from other gods as being "the god".[6]

>but it was originally a distinct being, a pagan god.

It's the same divinity. El/Yahweh have the same roles in creating Life and the Universe as the Supreme God. The current confusion surrounding El/Yahweh is purely based on the different, 'CULTURAL-INTERPRETATION', that the Akkadians, Assyrians, Amorites, Babylonians, Ugarites/Ancient-Syrians, Canaanites and Israelites possessed and ascribed to that same God in that time-period. Logically, this religious belief would originally stem from a 'singular-source' and eventually developed into branching systems (i.e Monotheistic to Polytheism). The understanding of El would be no different. As time went on however, those advocating for the introduction of new deities (e.g Hadad, Dagon, Asshur, Shamash) used it to distinguish themselves for political reasons. Judaism just advocated for going back to the original canon.
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We are so familiar with the Bible story and the subsequent history of Israel that we tend to project our knowledge of later Jewish religion back onto these early historical personages. Accordingly, we assume that the three patriarchs of Israel—Abraham, his son Isaac and his grandson Jacob—were monotheists, that they believed in only one God. This does not seem to have been the case. Indeed, it is probably more accurate to call these early Hebrews pagans who shared many of the religious beliefs of their neighbors in Canaan. They would certainly have believed in the existence of such deities as Marduk, Baal and Anat. They may not all have worshipped the same deity: it is possible that the God of Abraham, the “Fear” or “Kinsman” of Isaac and the “Mighty One” of Jacob were three separate gods.

We can go further. It is highly likely that Abraham’s God was El, the High God of Canaan. The deity introduces himself to Abraham as El Shaddai (El of the Mountain) which was one of El’s traditional titles. Elsewhere he is called El Elyon (The Most High God) or El of Bethel. The name of the Canaanite High God is preserved in such Hebrew names as Isra-El or Ishma-El. They experienced him in ways that would not have been unfamiliar to the pagans of the Middle East.

A History of God - Karen Armstrong
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>>512238
Interesting, thank you
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Religion is just clarity's attempt to dumb itself down into infinity and nobody still gets it.
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>>512756
Clarity?
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>>493316
>>512238
This book treats Abraham as a historical figure and claims Yahweh was originally "Yahweh tsabaot" (Yahweh of hosts/armies), despite this phrase never appearing in the Torah. Please read someone like Mark S. Smith who is an actual expert on Canaanite religion.
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>>515721
Thanks, I'll check it out
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>>495574
>>495608
Also, doesn't eligibility have a hereditary components? It's not a missionary faith iirc.
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>>517279
It's no coincidence that the most intolerant, warlike, and proselytizing religions in the world are also the largest in the word
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>>510721
Just ordered it, thanks!
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>>493316
How do Christians feel about this?
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>>519611
Muh metaphysics
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>>493644
What's the difference?
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How do Christians reconcile knowing all this?

Was it all a part of God's plan to slowly come into fruition as an idea?
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>>493316
>Yahweh is a typical ancient Near Eastern "divine warrior
Explains why OT God is such a cunt.
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>>498022
Gnostics can go back to >>>/x/
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>>521627
yahweh is a demon not God. You know it's the same in both Testaments, right? Your ignorant comment gives you away.
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>>519611
Nothing in particular. We can't deny historical facts. I mean, it's very interesting and helps put a new light on faith, but it's not like it contradicts the core principles of Christianity (which are the godly prophecies of the OT, and the gospels although we don't have any factual accounts so we have four different versions instead to have a solid idea).

Now, if we found out Moses or David never existed, for instance, now that would be a big problem since it simply undoes anything related to the Christ. But whether Israel was always monotheistic or not, or really did invade Canaan aggressively, or whether there was an actual worldwide flood or not, those are not actually Christianity's biggest issues as far as historicity goes, except for the nutjobs who really wish they were Jewish or who want scripture to compete with the Quran.

New historical discoveries haven't been enough to crush Christianity yet. We can say that most of the OT's scripture isn't just made-up stories to boost Israeli morale after the Babylonian deportation, but rather a relatively good depiction of actual history that was twisted due to oral teachings, mythological influence, and doctrine. After all you can still see in parts of the Pentateuch that Yaweh wasn't really treated in a monotheistic way at times.

>>521537
God gave us reason to discover the world he made for us and so we could find our way back to him too. Finding more about the origins and historicity of the contents of the Bible is always a good thing. If we ever find something that manages to contradict an important aspect of the faith and that effectively undoes the whole religion, Christianity will either cease to exist (except for some sects) or evolve into a different religion.
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>>521651
It's pretty important to point out demiurge because of people pray to Jesus they'll start to see how all of this makes sense.

Even if YHWH isn't god, Jesus is still the Savior, because Jesus is God.

>>521690
Not the same in both testaments. The Bible restoration in Babylon is truth mixed in with lies, names changed and weaved into other places.
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I told you idiots this. There's also something behind the original pantheons that can be found in almost every culture. It's not that religion isn't "real" its that we're doing it all wrong by currently worshipping war gods. What do you think you get when you worship only war gods?
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>>522079
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>>522079
>>522080
Oh, and why is it that we chose war gods over say gods of love or fertility. The POWAH. You have to know about /x/ tier stuff, when you worship an entity you give it life. By worshipping war gods we are manifesting them, whether or not they actually existed before. Now we have war gods being given all the power and no other gods are being given power. What does that result in? A world of war.
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>>522094
>world of warcraft
The problem with this thread is that it's only giving historical data, and not spiritual advice.

I found this stuff out and still pray to Jesus and I keep finding out more about it.

This also has to do with people taking over Jesus/ trying to. Jesus talks about worshipping God in Spirit. Yhwh/Jehova translates to two other names (..) that point to the demiurge and Jupiter, lesser gods.

>Hypostasis of the Archons
It explains the creation story the way it is supposed to be, and talks about the actual Spirit of God rather than a superficial deity.
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>>522105
The more you believe divinity and life are separate the more lost you'll be. Life is a part of divinity. If whole light is God, we are refracted light.
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>>522114
I never said life and divinity are seperate. Though it is important to the imperfection of matter
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>>522094
>Oh, and why is it that we chose war gods over say gods of love or fertility

Simply imagine two competing religious points of view, one holding the idea that other religions are to be respected and that war is justified only in defense, the other holding that war is justified in converting infidels to the only true faith, and that this faith must by its very calling be spread across the world. Which religion will survive and grow, and which will be stamped out and forgotten? The answer is self-evident—and yet it has nothing to do with which religion is actually true.

Colonization of the world, more often than not by robbery and warfare, spread Christianity into the Americas and other corners of the earth, just as Islam was spread throughout Asia and Africa. It is not a coincidence that the two most widespread religions in the world today are the most warlike and intolerant religions in history.
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>>522779
I see, thanks
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>>521878
Well, there is no evidence for Moses, Solomon, etc.
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>>525931
But no evidence against either.
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>>527571
>evidence against

Excuse me, what does such a thing look like? When non existent unicorns DON'T leave rainbow hoof prints around and ARE NOT seen in the plains does that mean there is no evidence against their existence? We search for the loch Ness monster, we can't find it. Isn't that enough to conclude that it doesn't exist? Because there is no such thing as "evidence against". If you make a positive claim, like Moses lead Hebrews out of Egypt, I expect you already have good reasons to be making that claim. But if you're just saying it because it doesn't have any evidence for or against (a quality of things that don't exist) then you're not going to convince anyone
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>>527868

Excuse me, can you not non-prove that non-Yeti doesn't not non-exist?

Yeah, didn't not-think so

Checkmate heathen
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Does this book come recommended?

Looking for books on the history of Christianity, especially the background and early years, so I figured this must be the best source out there. Author is a gay Anglican, though, and the documentary series he hosted based off the book is a bit lacking in my view. Curious what /his/ thinks of the book, though.
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>>528427
Honestly, book in OP is what you are looking for
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>>528696
NTA but I just ordered it, exciting!
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>>527868
Difference is that Nessie existing doesn't concern any question pertaining to the meaning and purpose of life.
Faith is believing in something not because of concrete proof, but because it fills a hole in an answer. It's more based on personal feeling than on scientifical reasoning, and it should be so, because religion is a personal thing to start with.
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>>529635
Not seeing how the the significance of the figure in question has any bearing on whether it's sensible to believe in spite of little or no evidence. You said yourself that if you found out that Moses didn't exist you would have problems with your religion and anon demonstrated why there's no reason at all to believe he did. In fact since the only account of him is in the Torah and none of it corroborates at all with the historical or archeological record that's pretty good evidence that he's a purely legendary figure.

Yet you're going back on your word because your current beliefs make you feel good. Smh tbhfam
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>>529635
This post makes me cringe. Are you being serious or trolling? If serious, I ask why you would ever employ blind faith when you know it is completely unreliable.
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'we found a jar that says YHHHWYY on it. This is proof that the Jews had actually 2 gods at one pont'.

People actually believe this shit.

That book is all bullshit op. Just lettign you know.
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>>529635
>Difference is that Nessie existing doesn't concern any question pertaining to the meaning and purpose of life.
People often make it their life's purpose to discover things like Nessie and Bigfoot.
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