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Oculus price
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>599 US Dollars
>No free shipping

Hype train derailed.
>>
>>52276066
i live in germany and it could be worse.

the price is 700€ with taxes included so i predict another 30€ for shipping...

could honestly be way way worse
>>
Comes to $1100 AUD before taxes.

rip my VR experience.
>>
>>52276066
That also does not include the motion controllers which will be sold separately.
>>
I'll defend VR all day, but 600$ is a disappointing first price.

What matters, though, is that it's selling regardless. They've already sold out three months worth of backorders.
>>
>>52276105
>700€
>could be worse
Fuck no. 400 okay, I was willing to shell out that, this is just insane
>>
>>52276134
there will be enough variety of games without motion control support anyway in the beginning.

the only game which got me hooked on it was Climb from Crytek.

many other games simply work with the xbone controller

>>52276149
what's another 300€ for the ultimate vr experience every perceived?

you have 2 months until now to make an additional 300€
>>
I hope Gaben will save us. Remember there's a chance Valve is partnering with more people than HTC if they fail us.
>>
>>52276105
Are you sure you're not gonna get fucked by the Zollbehoerde?
>>
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>>52276186
>>
>>52276066
Op wants new cool thing.
Op can't afford new cool thing.
Op bitches about it on 4 chan.
Get a job op!
>>
>>52276170
>>many other games simply work with the xbone controller

As someone that has a DK2, controller games bore me. I feel no urge to spend $685 on a upgraded DK2. I want the full VR experience and it looks like Vive is going to give that to me first.
>>
Isnt just better, for now, to use some mobile phone with better PPI + Google Cardboard 2.0 + Trius Gyre to play some games?

Srsly, 600 bucks is a rape
>>
>>52276066
As if the Vive didn't already have better hardware and software, now it will have a more competetive price as well.

I was a big supporter of Oculus early on but they dropped they fumbled the ball and Valve immediatly recovered it.
>>
>>52276706
no. it has no motion tracking to begin with so you can't lean in and out. just a gyroscope which checks where you look at.
>>
I'm happy with my DK2.

Here's hoping future models will be cheaper.
>>
>>52276749
>now it will have a more competetive price as well

this is a bad assumption. Vive has announced to be a better offer to oculus, dedicated entirely for gaming thus you pay a premium for added functionality.

i'd expect a price beyond 1200$ if it hasatleast the Oculus experience. otherwise it's a downgrade from the oculus
>>
>>52276066
THE DREAM IS DEAD
>>
>>52276757
Still, why bother with motion tracking if even they are bundling the Rift with a fucking game controler?
>>
>>52276867
because it breaks immersion if you feel the need to observe something just a little bit closer.

it's like sniping in battlefield and you move a bit in to see those targets in the distance a bit better.

it actually induces motion sickness
>>
I'm not on the VR hype train by any means, but this is fairly typical for new tech in early adoption phase. $599 actually isn't even that bad. I think DVD players started out being in the $900+ range in the late 90's ($1300+ when adjusted for inflation).
>>
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let's get this shit started
>FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETY NINETY US DOLLARS
>>
>>52276789
I don't even know what the fuck to say to this
>>
>>52276105
It's $960 with tax WITHOUT shipping in canada. So it's gonna be a grand with shipping, and with the way the cad is dropping even more by release in 2 months.
>>
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>>52276066
>>
>>52276894

>>it actually induces motion sickness
that is a relevant answer!

I myself always use the argument that "its about immersion, not realism" when friends speak about "stupid 3d stuff"

Ok, so even if i just want some S3D experience in a HMD with good PPI, without the tracking, because using controler. Isnt stil game?

And I agree with >>52276913 about the price. I just hope that, as with the VCR and DVD players, the tech is still alive (and WELL) in near future. Not some random droped "3D shitty glasses" on ebay.
>>
>>52276966
do the math.. oculus is backed by facebook. fucking facebook.

valve has not the same revenue as facebook and htc is bankrupt so it will probably have to generate some income

the rift costs 600$/700€ and is worth 5000€ of r&d production value. not even bill gates is able to get a better headset than the rift at the moment.

chances are that the CV2 will be even less subsidized so i'm pretty sure. if you want to have VR now, it is the cheapest time possible until the price inflates

it's like the dvd market all over again. the first dvd player cost like 900$, inflated to 300$ and look where we are now
>>
so where do i pirate one?
>>
Does it charge you on pre-order or when it ships?
>>
>Estimated cost of a rift here in Iceland after shipping and taxes and whatnot: $1130.

I was looking forward to playing fancy pc games in VR but not at that price, especially not when the rift has the same low res screen as my gearvr uses.

Might try to find a used DK2 cheap or maybe get the rift2 in a couple years if it has a 4k screen.

this is seriously disappointing.
>>
>>52276976
Stop using the $ sign for your monopoly money pls.
>>
>>52277128
You wouldn't pirate a waifu
>>
http://www.roadtovr.com/oculus-promises-100-rift-games-end-2016/
>>
>I know, lets include shit that our target market either already owns or doesn't want that will jack up the price!
>Brilliant!
>>
I was expecting something similar to the cost of a dev kit, maybe $100 more at the most, but fuck, this is double what I paid for the dk2, and I'd probably have to get a new GPU to go along with it as well

Is this thing really going to be that much of an upgrade to be worth it?
>>
>>
>>52277057
>>52276789
you're fucking retarded
none of the prices are from a cost perspective
>>
Who cares? I'm just waiting for the HTC Vive to come out so we can get a good VR headset
>>
>>52277434
Yea, one single time and that isn't including the thousand dollar plane ticket.
>>
>>52277329
Look up the demos in the consumer electronics show
>>
>>52277326
>look we have 100 exclusive rift games
>buy our shit
>we're totally not fucking consumers with exclusives
>think of the employees price is justified
>>
I think facebook wants to sell these things for a profit right off the bat.

That way they can convince their investors that acquiring them was a good move
>>
>>52277484
>palmer gets the opportunity to instantly get into silicon valley which is everyones technician dream for a high life

>just to fuckover humanity
>>
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>mfw no news about it in brazil
>mfw it will cost like 1200$
>>
>put a contraption on your head so you're completely sensorily detached from the real world and other people around you

How more autist can it get?
>>
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i called it. you can make a profit with selling everything you don't really need
>>
>>52277731
>Sell it for profit
How am I going to sell an xbox controller for over $600?
>>
>Give away 7k units to Kickstarter backers
>Sell 3k (500 fraudulent, 500 not fully committed)

We moved 10k units first day!
>>
>>52277203
>>
>>52277755
i know you did that on purpose but to think of it,
you'd probably make a profit on selling the whole set on ebay because people decide to get it afterwards and bids sometimes go over the roof
>>
>>52277656
think sex toys
>>
Just got home from work. SIX HUNDRED FUCKING DOLLARIEDOOS JESUS CHRIST OCULUS

What happened? How can it be MORE than a dev kit?
>>
>>52277755
The xbox controller might have cost them 5 dollars to add. Selling it for anything over 5 dollars is a profit on what it actually cost you for that single part.
>>
>>52277731
I'm sure Microsoft was happy to bundle their controller with it. It probably costs them $10 to ship it.
>>
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>>52277774
>$350 ballpark
>>
>>52277656

Hopefully a whole lot.
>>
>>52277795
higher specs + actual effort in the engineering + god knows how much QA/development/testing went into the process

ask palmer tonight, he has an IAMA on rebbit
>>
>>52277774

Are there other shipping options? Jesus
>>
>>52277774
>taking a photo of your screen
>on /g/
>>
>>52277656
That's like the 4chin dream though.
>>
>>52277849
No.

>tfw not living in a taxless state like FL
>>
¥ 94,600 FUCK A YOU A RIFUTO
>>
>>52277829
None of that matters in capitalism dipshit
The set the price at what they think you'll buy it.
>>
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>Mfw all the people online justifying the price tag and shitting on people who say it's too high.

How's that palmer dick taste?
>>
>>52277829
Those cheapskates are going to tear him new asshole.
>>
>>52276925
Pretty much. No one wants to strap on VR goggles, wait for it to boot and defog, log into their account while completely cut off from reality when they can just pull out their phone and use it to shop and communicate in two seconds.

It's clunky and incontinent. It makes you look like an idiot. Only lonely nerds will embrace it.

Is VR cool? Of course. Will it take off. Nope
>>
I feel bad for game devs who've been working on Oculus titles for a long time now only to realize that a fat chunk of their market has been priced out.
>>
What I don't get is why didn't they release two versions, the 600$ version and a DK2 with a better screen for 400$
>>
>>52277918
haha

>>52277929
Even the super-enthusiasts at /r/oculus are bummed out

I'm not gonna lie, I would buy it if I could without a doubt, but it's worrying.

Of course, that didn't stop the first three waves of backorders from selling out in under an hour.
>>
Facebook should have bet on content revenue and eaten the cost on manufacturing.

This could have been a product with tremendous early adoption, but they turned their nose up at that notion and left it for Sony. The DK2 made it clear that they had an affordable product that people loved, they weren't going to shit the bed and kill people's interest in VR with a slightly worse 4 or 500 dollar machine. The first gen model doesn't have to be perfect, and I'm kind of miffed that I had to wait an extra year on this so they could turn it into a luxury product that Im no longer sure that I want.
>>
>>52277918
They're selling it at cost.
Guys
Guys

It's cost.
>>
>>52277980
I'm rich and I'm not buying it. Fuck that. It's going to be replaced in no time anyway. CV1 was a terrible name as it immediately reminds you that a newer and better unit will be along soon.
>>
>>52276113
New computer or the rift... hmmmmmmmm....
>>
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>>52277952
>I quit my job so I can develop games and be on the ground floor of what is sure to be a revolution in entertainment!

>That price point drops.
>>
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>>52277480
>2013
>still not knowing how to use Kayak
ISHYGDDT
>>
Reminder that a 1500 dollar PC is also required to drive these well. I know most of us already have that but many of normies don't.
>>
>>52277980
>Even the super-enthusiasts at /r/oculus are bummed out

those aren't the super enthusiasts man, all the posts are on r/all now so they're full of poorfags who have no clue what they're talking about.

The target market are people with high end PCs, and most of those people are not poor niggers.
>>
So I guess VR is just going to be a shitty phone add on.

I bet in 2 years they'll have a CV 2 almost out at the same price.
>>
>>52278020
I think it's pretty clear CV1 is for enthusiast early adopters who know what they're getting into.

For most people, it makes perfect sense to wait, because there's obviously going to be a better/cheaper model in due time.

>>52278044
You're off by about 500 dollars. Even the big companies selling oculus-ready prebuilts are getting under 1000.

>>52278054
I was watching the sub before shit hit /r/all, it was pretty unanimous.
>>
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Price skimming is a pricing strategy in which a marketer sets a relatively high price for a product or service at first, then lowers the price over time.
>>
>>52278059

Well there's a reason Carmack is only working on mobile VR, that's where the potential is. There are way more people with high end smartphones than people with high end PCs

Carmack saw the future and the rest are just too stubborn because "muh premium experience is only on the desktop"
>>
>>52278073
>>I think it's pretty clear CV1 is for enthusiast early adopters who know what they're getting into.

I think the issue is that a lot of people who consider themselves enthusiast first adopters were proven wrong by the price.
>>
>>52278074
I bet the financial advisors told him to tell us that.
>obscenely cheap
that fucking this is just a case with 2 screens, a sensor and some LED's + camera's. Even if the screens are 100 $ a pop and the camera 50 that still doesn't even come near 600$
they are making mad profit off this and I bet the investors of Facebook had a hand in this mockery
>>
>>52278073
I said drive it well. You aren't going to to be playing high end games at 90 fps or whatever it is with a 1000 prebuilt.
>>
Who /madnowbutprobablygoingtopaythe600eventually/ here?
>>
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>>52278171
here
>>
>>52278144
Wow, it's just a case with two screens, a sensor, some LEDs and cameras, headphones, microphone, a DAC, a controller. I mean, anyone could have done it.

I mean, microprocessors are just sand anyways lol why is AMD so garbage?
>>
>>52278171
Obviously
>>
>>52276113
oh god no, please kill me
>>
>>52278134
I'm in that group. Time will tell how prohibitive the cost actually is, though.

>>52278145
The prebuilts all meet Oculus' recommended spec.

Any computer that can get 9K on Firestrike is rift-ready.

>>52278171
if I had the 600 to my name, I'd have it shipping in February
but I don't
>>
Here's where you can get some extra info that's not shown on the website:
In Chrome, go to this URL and login: https://shop.oculus.com/en-us/history/
Click on your order
Open the developer tools (F12) and click on the network tab
Refresh the page
Filter by XHR (next to JS, CSS, etc)
One of the XHR calls will be "graphql?access_token=..."
This call will show you the server data that Oculus has on your order. If you go under payment_account.preordered_physical_orders[0] you'll be able to see your preorder_time (which you can convert to time here: http://www.unixtimestamp.com/ ) as well as your Touch preorder status under the partner_coupon key. My friend who did not get a confirmation page had this key set to null and now unfortunately knows that he doesn't have a place in line for the Touch, hopefully that can be remedied eventually.
Hope that helps some people know more about what happened during their orders if they had some trouble getting it in.
>>
Reminds me of all of the apple fanboy hype pre-iPod.

What a disaster that product was.
>>
>>52278171
Here but first I want to see actual development on the software side too.
No point buying a $600 gimmick for a few games.
>>
>>52276749
>now it will have a more competetive price as well
>Implying Vive won't be at least $800
wew lad
>>
>>52278171

>tfw NEET but forced to get a job now because the waifu age is finally here and neetbux are not enough
>>
>>52278120
Carmack's working on GearVR because selling smartphones is part of their deal with Samsung for getting access to their production capabilities for producing the displays and other components they need for the Rift. Samsung pitched the idea of mobile VR to him based on a shitty prototype their engineers did when he went to them to arrange production contracts. He mentioned that in one of his talks.
>>
>>52278212
It's like you didn't play all those fetish games made in the unity engine on the DK2 or something...
>>
I was really excited to buy this and i'm disappointed by the price. I'm thinking the Vive will be similar in price.

On the flip side there's nothing I like more than an angry mob shit storm.
>>
>>52276066
>>52276105
Wow fuck this. VR meme is dead.
>>
>>52278144
The integrated headphone stuff alone is 250 usd. Sennheiser HD598 driver.
>>
>>52278269
What time is the Palmer AMA ass raping taking place?
>>
>>52278269

$599 is actually what I anticipated for the Vive, since it has a little extra. That means it will be $999.
>>
>>52278283
Maybe enough of us who are irresponsible with our money will keep it alive.
>>
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>>52278295
Gon b gud
>>
>>52278307
I just don't see it. Imagine being a dev preparing for 2016 and making all that cool shit and then there's no one to buy it. They'll abandon the ship.
>>
>>52278291
The enclosure around it looked pretty small and plastic though.
>>
>no games
>no mass adoption
stillborn
>>
>>52278295
6 PM real people time zone.
>>
>>52278349
It's already 6:36
>>
No it couldn't be worse, it'll never take off at that price. How high res is the screen even?
>>
>>52278291
If this is true and the OR finally flops then the person who made this decision should be paraded across silicon valley while flogged then put to death.
>>
>>52278348
It supports Dirty Rally and DCS two games I play a lot of. I'm really conflicted on what to do here.
>>
That is a lot for shitty tech demos and porn
>>
>>52278295
Plebbit outrage will have died down by then. They were incredibly mad about facebook and forgot about it just as quickly.
>>
>>52278363
>>52278349
it's fucking 23:37
>>
>>52278369
It's pretty poor. Even if you lean way in it's hard to read a lot of stuff on say an instrument panel or dash board. It needs to be two 4K panels but obviously the GPU's to drive that aren't available yet.
>>
>>52278369
People who buy 144Hz Gsync monitors. No idea about the specs, The people are entitled to them as far as I'm concerned since they're preordering now.
>>
>>52278388
Yeah, sorry it'll be at 2 Bong, pip pip.
>>
>>52276105
Shipping is 42€.

And I'm not sure the import tax is included in the 700€. You might get an invoice from customs anyway.
>>
>>52278331

that's why oculus are funding a bunch of devs, hopefully Valve does the same and keeps VR alive
>>
>>52278427
Should have done that like 2 years ago family.
>>
>>52278449

A lot of the games have been in development for over 2 years senpai. You think they just started funding devs today or something?
>>
>>52278426
>And I'm not sure the import tax is included in the 700€
No tax, no import duties for the EU and no shipping included in that 700 which is fucking retarded
it's going to be around 1k for europe
(700+42)*1.21*1.042+declaration costs
>>
>>52278427
If Valve could just bundle the new Half Life with the Vive as the only way to get the game then VR would never die.
>>
>people complaining how they can't afford Rift
>not just waiting till its release and then buying it from online shops in rates
>>
>>52278488
or you can pay the same now and get it quicker you fucking idiot
>>
>2160 x 1200
>$600
How much did they spend on the motion tracking junk if we have to pay that much for a barely above 1080p screen?
>>
>>52278426
Yeah, probably import taxes are not included.
https://twitter.com/PalmerLuckey/status/684785000701493249
You better wait for european resellers uif you really want to buy this expensive gaymer toy.
>>
>>52276066
>free
>one of the first units shipped
I'm hyped
>>
>>52278488
>people complaining how they can't afford Rift
You got things backwards. Most serious /g/ anons will end up getting it but at that price point and spec requirement no normie will touch it. That is the problem.
>>
>>52278481
>No tax, no import duties for the EU and no shipping included
How is this even legal?
>>
>>52278511
It's facebook, they probably thought everyone will jump on the VR hype train regardless of the price. They'll be proven wrong. Jews gonna jew.
>>
>>52278521
fuck you asshole
>>
>>52278521

How much you starting the auction for?
>>
>>52278542
get an across the pond friend to buy it for you and then post it to you. Pray customs do not intercept it.
>>
>>52278203
3dmark says 9275, Palmer says over 9k should be fine.

I came in at 9100ish with my 970, so I OC'd it and tried again, got like 9700. Woo.
>>
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>>52278521
First of all, thank you

Second of all, fuck you
>>
>>52278291
>Sennheiser HD598
Enjoy your veiled sound, Rift cucks!
>>
>>52278589
Yeah, I was messing around with PrecisionX last night and was surprised how much more I could squeeze out of my card.
>>
Don't u know about system requirements? Go buy 2000$ pc if u wanna play without lags using oculus.
>>
>>52278481
is this joke?
>>
>worse res than my phone
>$600
>>
>>52278291
I already own headphones. $250 off please.
>>
>>52278649
Exactly.. Bundling shit everyone has to make the mad profit seem justified.
>>
>>52278426
I deal with that enough while purchasing japanese sex toys. VAT is forcibly included in prices when you buy something inside the EU. As long as the stuff stays inside the EU, customs won't add anything on top. If they do, you need to contact the ones who sold it and have them pay for it. EU legally requires vendors to include VAT in their prices.
>>
>>52278603
Who was the fucking "audiophile" who thought adding that to the cost was a good idea? I just got the Logitech G633 headphones, so I can sell those for a profit, Lucky...
>>
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>Your Nvidia GeForce GTX 660M Graphics Card Doesn't Meet our Recommended Specification.

Fuck you Jews
>>
>>52278676
While I don't know if they had anything to do with it, Palmer luckey is a self-professed audiophile.
>>
>>52278649
I already own an Xbox controller too. That's like 50 bucks there. So we just knocked off $300 and got the Oculus down to $299. Why am I not a CEO?
>>
>>52278676
*can't sell*
>>
wow this sounds a whole lot like a >>>/v/ problem
why don't you go to
>>>/v/
>>
>>52278709
Go tell Palmer that tonight, I bet you'll blow his mind.
>>
what are the chances of the Vive costing less than the Oculus Theft?
>>
Guys you get Lucky Tales FOR FREE
>>
>>52278734
No :^)
>>
>>52278291
Where are you getting this info?
>>
>>52278741
0,000000001%
>>
>>52278291
The sennsheiser 598 cost 99$ on black friday and 150$ otherwise, thedrivers are the same as in 518 which are 70$. Way to go fuckbook
>>
>>52278741
Zero. The motion controllers are bundled in with it.
>>
>23 years old
>already worth 700 million

What are we doing with our lives
>>
>>52278291
>The integrated headphone stuff alone is 250 usd. Sennheiser HD598 driver.

[citation needed]
>>
does rift have 2160x1200 for each eye or spread across both?

If it's for each eye I may well order one despite the price.
>>
>>52278709
He said on his Twitter that the controller costs them nothing and included for developers to have a target for controls.
>>
>>52278791
It uses two screens and that's the total resolution of both combined
>>
>>52278791
Spread across. It's 1080x1200, 90FPS per eye.
>>
>>52276134
the motion controllers are confirmed shit.
immersive control will not come close to solved any time soon.
passive stuff and telepresence will be the thing for the foreseeable future.
>>
>>52278734
>It's not technology because it's gaymen related

Fuck off
>>
>>52278775
And also what a retarded idea, why the fuck cant I use ny own better headphones in year 2016
>>
>>52278791
Spread
Panel probably costs like $100
>>
>>52278809

I see, so it's just as fuzzy as GearVR then? that's a shame, I got my hopes up for a moment there.
>>
>>52278793
Well that settles it then. He wouldn't lie
>>
Xbone controller (shipping weight), Sennheiser headphones (if you cared that much about audio, you'd already have hifi)

LOOK AT THAT VALUE
>>
>>52278830
Nope it'll be fuzzier than a $400 phone + $1 cardboard for years to come
>>
>>52278829
No, it's better than GearVR for sure. I've tried CB and GearVR and CB is easily sharper and less screendoor. The optics are far better in the Rift and has better coverage due to the custom screens.
>>
>>52278819
Nobody is stopping you from using your own headphones, you raging autist.
>>
>>52278819
you can you uninformed piece of shit. but it will interupt a comfortable experience
>>
>>52278820
less, it costs you about 100$
>>
>$600
>low as shit res
>no games, and exclusive games
>controls still no where near solved
>>
>>52276066
Even $601 would have been better.

The American public does not like the figure 599. That's why no iphone costs $599.
>>
>>52278603
>>52278649
>>52278775
He's just talking out of his ass you realize that right? No one knows the added cost except Oculus.
>>
>>52278912
riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidge racer
>>
>$600 dollar headset
>requires $600+ dollar graphics card

It's almost like they want VR to fail. And I doubt the next generation will drop the price at all. I guess we can pretty much expect VR to remain a $1200+ dollar investment for the foreseeable future, at least for PC.
>>
>>52278894
Why are you talking like brochure?
>>
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>>52278855
>>
>>52278938
because tech illiterate people like you won't understand it otherways
>>
>>52278912
This
Five hundred and ninety nine U.S. dollars is the worst possible price point for a device
>>
>>52278932
Just stop bitching and buy the $1500 prebuilt PC. It comes WITH Oculus.

HTC are retards, they will see this and think, "oh, our price of $999 doesn't seem that crazy any more."
>>
>>52278991
Are you stupid? Whether I'm willing to spend the money or not is irrelevant, the simple fact is that nothing gaming related that costs over a thousand dollars will ever go mainstream in any way. VR will always be niche at this price point, which means extremely limited game development for it, probably mostly tagged on as an afterthought to non-VR games.
>>
Why is this double the price of the devkits?
>>
>>52279017
I'm pretty sure it'll become mainstream. The big question is when?
The PS3 sold a shitfuck during the years even if it had a rough start.
Ofc it's not the same thing, but still...
>>
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>>52278983
>tfw i buy a smartphone worth 599€ every 2 years
>>
>>52279054
I want chocolate now, thanks anon.
>>
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>>52279034
Because Jewbook decided to make some money out of it...
>n-no goy, we're selling it at cost, we're not making any profit out of it. Trust me, our bank account isn't getting milions of shekels.
>>
>>52279041
The trouble is this is a peripheral and not a console. You still need a beefy as fuck computer to run this thing.
>>
>>52279017
the first iphone was 500-600$
>>
>>52279034
because it features probably 5 times the quality of the DK2
>>
>>52276066
How much did you think it was going to cost, you stupid fuck?
>>
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>>52278685
>build super expensive gaming rig, preparing for VR
>best GPU in the day, 780Ti
>computer is compatible with the OR now
>not gonna buy OR anytime soon because no way am I going to put down >€700 for that
>>
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>>52279093
>t. Palmer Jewckey
>>
>>52279100
$499 for me.
>>
>>52279100
he's gonna reply with 350$ ballpark reference from palmer several months ago before the final rift was determined
>>
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>599 US Dollars
>No free shipping
>Doesn't come with the touch controllers
>>
>>52279110
Let other people deal with all the beta testing. When Pascal's ready you'll be ready for CV2.
>>
>>52279142
watch it the opposide way.. what does it come with?

and don't say, a screen that you tape onto your head
>>
> falling for the VR meme

It's gonna be legit this time, goyim! Now just cough up a few shekels...
>>
>>52279147
CV1 is the result of 4 years of beta testing anon.
>>
>>52279168
read >>52278074
We're selling it at cost goyim :^)
Trust us, we're doing you a favor, now please give us 742€ + import taxes.
>>
I will be surprised if Vive is $599 to be honest.

Much Vives tech will be spread throughout the rest of HTC's business also HTC already has distributors and much bigger production, it also has the ability to take off the shelf tech it already has.
This is why I suspect Vive will have better tech, but will actually be cheaper.

Also Vive already wins globally by having distributors outside of the US.

$500 for Vive I would suspect (since the ballpark estimates for Vive was $400 before Oculus shit the bed and poured all their R&D costs and over-engineering into CV1 which HTC and Valve don't have to do)
>>
>>52277802
While I do think Microsoft was smart in doing this, I don't see it as so little in cost. These are also the PC wireless controllers, so it comes with the extra adapter.
>>
>>52279206

palmer said they pay the taxes.
>>52276214
>>
>>52279200
Actual beta testers never fix anything or identify any issues because they are all ravenous fanboys that think the dev can do no wrong.
>>
>>52279224
They pay the taxes as in VAT taxes. They do not pay import taxes. https://twitter.com/PalmerLuckey/status/684785000701493249
>>
>>52279214
I will be surprised if it's less than $599. HTC from the offset have always been reticent about giving any development or pricing details.
>>
>>52279214
htc is just a hardware farmer like every other chinese manufacteurer, just that they got into global market much sooner than huawei for example.

main delivery of components will still be some samsung siliconcraft factories and special, most likely german, high precision components
>>
can it play leageu of legends this is very importan
>>
>>52279214
Don't even start with that shit, if it has better tech then it's going to cost more.
>>
What was Vive's big announcement supposed to be anyway? Did they mention that yet?
>>
>>52279214
Man, all they need to do is match the price and have better distribution to be cheaper. The $599 comes out to $685.61 after tax and shipping for me and I live a hour away from Oculus HQ. Fucking $30 for shipping.
>>
>>52279318
Yes it's the Chaperone thing.
>>
>>52279318
this

that's like asking apple to sell their iphone 6s at production cost of 120$ so we can all embrace it. that's not how it works
>>
>>52279286
Not true, it matters what it can get the cost at. HTC can farm millions of screens for tiny cost while Oculus probably only brought a hundred thousand.

The PS4 was more powerful than the Xbone yet was the same price, 970 and 390 are similar price range while the 390 kicks the living shit out of the 970.
>>
>>52279334
It's coming to "select retailers" in April.
>>
>>52279334
Just buy it from a shop? When are shops going to have these?
>>
>>52279338
What was so special about it? It seems kind of dumb to delay it several months just for that.
>>
>>52279318
Was it the front facing camera that can capture objects around you?
>>
>>52279355
Well I might as well cancel my order then since it says it'll ship in May.
>>
>>52279354
The PS4 did not come bundled with the kinect which is what drove up MS absurd price.
>>
>>52279354
>ok guys we're near bankruptcy, lets order near a million screen for a niche product
>>
>>52279224
In Europe VAT is somewhere between 20% and 25% (varies from country to country).
600$=560€ (more or less)
560€*1,25=700€
Then in some countries you also have import duties.
>>
>>52279390
Screens will be used across HTC product range.
>>
>>52279400
oh fuck... i hope my girlfriend will never find out
>>
>>52279368
I don't know. It's for safety or something gay.
>>
>>52279400
anyway. this headset, in my sense of valuating technology, goes beyond 5000€ so it's still an awesome deal
>>
That's some expensive memeware
VR will be as popular as Nintendos motion control I'm video games.
Except motion control didn't cause nausea in double digits percent of its users.
>>
Who has tried CV1 and DK2? I tried DK2 and wasn't that impressed. Should I wait to try a CV1 before ordering?
>>
>>52276066
They will probably make a cheaper version in the future
>>
>>52279437
they probably release it later because they have infrastructure trouble and are not finished with the software
>>
>spending 600$ on a shitty gimmick

shits worse than applefags.
when will you retards stop getting cucked by kikes?
>>
once the chinese have their hands on one unit and managed to replicate it then it will be cheaper. Overpriced piece of shit US fucktard business model.
>>
>>52279232
>not pretending that it's a gift
>>
>>52279452
It must be good to be rich.
>>
>>52279458
CV1 was better, not fucking 75% increase in price better.

Vive kicked the living shit out of CV1, I'm not exaggerating, Vive is the closest thing to a fucking holodeck.
>>
>>52279464
Yeah it was pretty obvious a stall tactic.
>>
>>52279458
Probably. I'm an evangelist for the tech, but I'd reccommend trying it out with some AAA experiences before putting out six hundred dollars for an enthusiast product.

There is a significant improvement in the hardware, but I'd still say give it some time if you're on the fence. There will be a better model next year, anyway.
>>
Just FYI if you read the accounts of people who tried the most popular VR headsets, the Oculus was at the bottom of their list. Head tracking and lack of any content of note was the main reason.
>>
>>52279484
Damn I never thought about the chinks. It will be like a hundred bucks.
>>
>>52279491
but why?
>>
>we are not making money on Rift hardware

That's some pricey R&D right there then.
>>
>>52279491
In what way is Vive better? Thanks
>>
>>52279491
>>52279531

It's worth noting that Oculus can do room-scale, as well.

Specs-wise, the headsets are neck and neck. Same res, about the same FOV (although that's harder to measure), same refresh rate.
>>
Thanks Facebook!
>>
>>52279368
I think what really happened was there was a problem in HTC's supply chain that was going to delay them for a long time. So they covered that up by announcing some "big breakthrough" that was already something they were going to add but instead was used as a smoke screen.
>>
>>52278074
Google cardboard will cost you $5... And doesn't require aPC
>>
>>52279531
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/htc-vive-pre-first-look,30894.html

+ the crazy controllers.

Way more immersive than Rift.
>>
This shit is gonna get better and/or cheaper in a few years right? I wasn't planning on getting one of these until I moved out again.
>>
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>>52278291
>Already own Sennheiser HD25s.
>Wanting me to downgrade for Oculus.
>>
>>52279578
For the purpose of a fair comparison:

Rift has the exact same kind of controllers in development, slated for release in the second half of 2016.

The only clear advantage to Vive is that they're already bundled together, but there will no doubt be Rift/Touch bundles out as soon as the tech launches.

Plus, the Chaperone thing is pretty neat.

I'd say look at impressions of both devices post-launch, plus what games are available for each device.
>>
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>>52276113
THANKS TONY ABBOTT
>>
>>52279609
you can remove the headphones

it's still kind of silly that they're required but still

>>52279601
Obviously. Like all new enthusiast tech, VR needs a few years to get market saturation.

The first iphones were 5-600$.

If you're not incredibly excited and/or don't have a Samsung flagship phone from the past year or two, I'd recommend waiting a year or so.
>>
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The Vive l-looks cooler a-anyways.
>>
>>52279560

It's actually free most of the time. Just got to find one while it's up. I have a few of them, last one being the Star Wars one from Google.
>>
>>52279674
>Obviously. Like all new enthusiast tech, VR needs a few years to get market saturation.
>The first iphones were 5-600$.

But many things actually dont really fall in price, like ipads / ipad minis / apple products in general. You'll still have the Gear Vr at $100 so theres that.
>>
its ok I don't want to get eye cancer
>>
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>>52276105
bruh.
>>
>>52279699
What precedence is there for outrageously expensive video game accessory to catch on?
>>
I bought an 800 ereader you poor fag
>>
>>52279817
Which one? That must be some ereader.
>>
>>52279675
Memeing aside it legitimately does look better and they already have controllers ready for it.
>>
Vive will be cheaper because it's got smart design instead of fucking autistic over-engineering.

The rift has two high res cameras while Oculus uses basically a shitty low-res camera only for tracking basic shapes.

Vive charges off micro USB while Rift uses a dedicated charging station.

Rift is what happens when you have a company run by autistic silicon valley dweebs.
>>
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>>52279808
>>
>>52279949
>Memeing aside it legitimately does look better and they already have controllers ready for it.

It looks better for movement games.

But Rift is a better sitting VR. Basically, it's the ultimate ASMR machine.
>>
2 words
FEATURE CREEP
Crescent bay should have been cv1
>>
>>52279808
32X was the greatest thing ever.
>>
>>52279850
I was seriously considering an $800 A4 ereader for reading PDF schematics.
>>
>>52280006
>Rift uses a dedicated charging station.

What is there to even charge? Oculus Touch isn't even near release yet.
>>
>>52278741
0 because HTC has to actually make a profit, the jews at Valvle are not subsidizing shit
>>
>>52280028
>should have

opinion discarded.

should OF
>>
>>52280021
yeah thats nice

Now show me more then 1000 people world wide have even one upclose.
Everyone has keyboards. Almost no one has spent more then 60 dollars on one.
>>
>>52280064
Except the entire R&D budget.
>>
>>52280021
>implying these were ever popular
>>
>>52280065
>>
>>52279675
>needs a big space to use
No it doesn't.
>>
>>52280028
There's no feature changes between Crescent Bay and CV1
>>
>costs more than the price of a human fucking being on the black market
>together with a PC that can run it, costs more than a car
>>
>>52280121
Do you live in Brazil or something?
>>
>>52280095
we can't depict that accurately.. fucking oculus hand over the datasheet already ..
>>
>>52280149
Yes we can. People have tried both.
>>
>>52279368

That's just the PR excuse for the delay, the real reason is always "we fucked something up and had start over"
>>
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>>52280082
>>52280073
>>
Valve is going to own VR look at what a hit Steam boxes and those Valve controllers were. Valve knows hardware.
>>
>>52280178
Nah, I don't think HTC fucked up, Valve did. They're way behind on their SDK. It doesn't even have direct mode yet. Valve probably asked for more time and HTC agreed so they can polish Vive and also wait for more launch software.
>>
>>52280184
So what information am I supposed to take away from this?
>>
>>52280197
This is ironic, right? I bought a steambox and controllers and all they're doing is collecting dust.

I was totally convinced that if I just got a console in the living room, i'd have friends over to play games with me. I forgot one important detail...
>>
>>52280216
Yeah I thought that I was being pretty obviously over the top.
>>
>>52280215
That you're a retard.
>>
The good thing about the price is there won't be any retarded russians, shitskins or underage kids online to ruin the experience.
>>
>>52277731
the dac and headphones make up the majority of the price difference from dk2. good luck selling those.
>>
>>52278741
Very likely. Valve doesn't care about profiting on hardware. They want to have the preeminent VR store and that will never happen if the Facebook Goggles are cheaper. Not to mention the Vive is being made by an actual hardware company using Taiwanese slave labor.
>>
>>52280222
To be fair, steam was kind of a dud too for the first several years. It's possible that steam boxes will gain market share.
>>
>>52280234
Well memed friend
>>
>Oculus HQ
"Looks like we have NO competition AT ALL, boss."
"Damn, we better sell it as cheap as possible!"
>things that never happened
>>
>>52280238
Valid point there.
>>
>>52280208

maybe but we now know the "limited release" that was meant to happen in December was just the second dev kit, so obviously the hardware wasn't ready either
>>
>>52280238
Much like an MMO shortly after launch.
>>
>>52280253
It has a DAC. Jesus Christ. Audiophiles ruin everything with their placebos.
>>
>>52280254
>steam VR requires space to move around in
>requires game devs to design a paradigm wherein you move around in a room but not past its borders
>preeminent anything
>>
>>52276066
Now waiting for the Vive price im excited
>>
>>52280254
Who actually builds the Rifts? If they are made in USA they fucked up big time.
>>
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not sure if it will run, I think I'll hold off for now
>>
>>52280301
$10 cell phones have DACs too
Even high quality DACs are dirt cheap.
>>
>>52280339
laptops. When will you learn.
>>
>>52280307
Doesn't matter. The Vive will be 400 US Dollars with a controller so devs will shut up and deal with it.
>>
>>52280339
>dual cards
>stuttering
>noise
>heat
>most games ignore second card
>>
>>52280254
>Valve doesn't care about profiting on hardware.

but this is a HTC product, and they obviously care about hardware profit. Also Valve didn't subsidize Steamboxes, what makes you think they'll change?
>>
>>52277952
not to mention the fact that palmer has been pushing the $200-$400 range from the start, and then oculus all of a sudden does a 180 and decides they want to make a "premium" product.
>>
>>52280339
Not sure what your saying. Your CPU isn't good enough and perhaps SLI isn't supported.
>>
>>52280307
Are you retarded? Just because it's capable of room scale doesn't mean you're forced to use it. It works just as well sitting as Oculus.
>>
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>>52280331
should i buy his product /g/?
>>
>>52280344
the chip they're using costs $150.
>>
>>52280366
The DK2 was intended as CV1. It wasn't good enough. If you have billions of facebook bucks at your disposal, why not make a perfect product?
>>
>>52280361
If a game isn't fun, people won't buy it. If a peripheral only has gimmick games, people won't buy the peripheral. The best case here is that the game basically ignores that feature and works like the Oculus anyway.
>>
>>52280339
>>52280373
BRUTAL
>>
>>52280397
WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS FROM?

STOP LYING
>>
>>52280392

>tfw a fucking brony is has achieved more in life than you ever will
>>
>>52280397
Citation fucking needed.
>>
>>52280400
Because people won't buy something they feel is overpriced?
>>
>>52280409
Tell that to all the obese soccer moms that bought a Wii and Wii Fit. All they need to do is make dating sims and all of /jp/ will sell themselves into indentured servitude to pay for one.
>>
>>52280400
why stop at $600? why not $6000 instead? just think of vr experience $6000 could get you.
>>
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>>52280434
Pamperchu is an electrical engineer.
>>
>>52280434
He basically hit the lotto with his taped up VR headset. There's a bunch of bronys trying to get closer to their waifu doing the same sort of autistic shit.
>>
>>52280397
$250 headphones
$50 Xbox controller
$150 DAC

They could have sold this for $149, boys. WHY
>>
>>52280444
CV1 Shipment 1 sold out in 10 minutes. Palmer expected it to last the whole day.
>>
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>>52280331
Chinks
>>
>>52280483
Literally nothing Luckey has said for the past two years has been truthful so I don't know why you would think this was anything more than marketing.
>>
>>52280307
>guys don't buy a color TV! it can't do black and white!!
>>
>>52280475
the headphones they're using the drivers from are $150, the drivers themselves are $60. the dac they're using the chips from is $250, the chips themselves are $150. the cv1 could have easily been <$400.
>>
>>52280091
Except it doesnt
>>
What time is that AMA? I've had 3 beers and he's going to get an earful.
>>
>>52280462
if the product wouldn't be subsidized and they were targeting for the 1% audience then it surely would have costed 5000$ easily
>>
>>52280640
9 PM EST

Good luck getting a word in edgewise.

Honestly, if you don't ask a legit question respectfully, expect your comment to get washed away in the tidal wave of angry fanboys.
>>
>>52280543

This was the first CV1 right? do you know when this was?
>>
>>52280742
http://www.roadtovr.com/the-first-oculus-rift-has-rolled-off-the-production-line/
I guess sometime before October.
>>
>>52280725
I don't see it. Which sub?
>>
>>52280876
/r/iama
>>
>>52280817

So that's six months between the first unit and mass shipping, meaning HTC should have started on their consumer version like last summer if they were actually aiming for a December launch, I smell another delay
>>
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oh my fucking god guys, look at pic related.. it's a bleeding edge ripoff if this site states the truth about commercial release after pre-order
>>
>>52279459
yup, release a cheaper vesion subsidized by all the 600+$ purchases now
>>
>If something’s even $600, it doesn’t matter how good it is, how great of an experience it is — if they just can’t afford it, then it really might as well not exist. - Palmer Luckey, June 6 2013

Remember. This product does not exist for most people. It will fail.
>>
"Gamers are not known to be the most affluent population of people. If something’s even $600, it doesn’t matter how good it is, how great of an experience it is — if they just can’t afford it, then it really might as well not exist. We’re going for the mainstream, but time will tell what the market is."

http://oculusrift-blog.com/allthingsd-speaks-palmer-nate-d11/1616/[1]
>>
>>52280141
>>>
>Anonymous 01/06/16(Wed)20:37:31 No.52278380▶
Maybe India. Because of the cheap cars?
>>
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>>52280994
>>52281009
>We’re going for the mainstream
Welp they failed hard.
>>
>>52280977
oh i just figured 500chf is 460€... verdammte kacke
>>
>>52280990
Uh, no. They gave away over five million dollars in Rifts. They won't even break even for a long time.
>>
>>52280254
>Not to mention the Vive is being made by an actual hardware company using Taiwanese slave labor.
Or moar like, designed by a company using Taiwanese slave labor, and manufactured by even cheaper Chinese slave labor.
>>
>>52280626
Still gonna use my own headphones, and throw the XBox gamepad to the garbage can.
>>
>>52281086
Regardless, it will be cheaper than hardware designed in Silicon Valley, manufactured in the US, and shipped with a case that costs at least 30 dollars just to ship.
>>
>>52281182
Not with the wands included.
>>
>>52277993

If they turned out a $400 "okay" headset /g/ would still be frothing at the mouth

>LMAO $400 FOR FUCKING 720P
>OCULUS KUCKED AGAIN
>ANTI-SEMITISM
>SCREEN DOOR EFFECT
>LITERALLY TAPING A SCREEN DOOR TO YOUR FOREHEAD
>HOUSEFIRE/EYE CANCER SCARE
>90 FPS LITERAL VOMITORIUM
>>
>>52281200
And heres the thing. I would really enjoy that thread. Immensely.
>>
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GUYS WHAT IS THIS, PIC RELATED
>>
>>52281197
Even with those included, since Oculus is including Xbox controllers and they don't even manufacture those at cost.
>>
>>52281248
Placeholder prices?
>>
>>52281200
this

I'm really disappointed about the price, too, and I have my worries about adoption, but in retrospect, it's got a significantly higher resolution than most desktop monitors, with 150% of the refresh rate, and on top of that, includes high-quality audio equipment. Plus, it's the size of a phone screen.

>>52281254
Xbox controllers cost less than 20 bucks to make, and Microsoft basically gave them away anyway. Vive's wands are gonna be a bit more expensive.
>>
>>52281200
>LITERALLY TAPING A SCREEN DOOR TO YOUR FOREHEAD

good one
>>
>>52281260
yeah. those are usually way above the initial price but why is it below?
>>
>>52281275
BECAUSE LITERALLY EVERYBODY THOUGHT IT WOULD BE CHEAPER BECAUSE THEY SAID IT WOULD BE
>>
>>52281306
even shops? i don't think so. i'll pre-order one through there and if it happens to be released sooner, i'll just cancel it
>>
>>52281273
Microsoft did not give the controllers away. They most likely contributed at least $30 to the cost. Plus the DAC, headphones, and carrying case and you've got a significant waste of money. Add to this the cost of manufacturing the Rift in the US.

Seriously, the Vise will be cheaper even with the controller.
>>
>>52281389
Is it true there is an amp too?
>>
>>52281389
Is it really made in USA?
>>
>>52281389
palmer's gone on record saying that it hasn't multiple times
https://twitter.com/PalmerLuckey/status/684869866663247872

the DAC/headphones, maybe, but not the controller

I still think you're underestimating just how much those wand controllers cost.
>>
Possible to estimate HTC Vive pricing from this announcement for Okulus pricing?
>>
>>52281457
nope
>>
>>52281457
I'm guessing Vive will be 700, but it's really impossible to tell. So many different variables.
>>
How much you wanna bet preorders are paying extra for the privilege of using their glorious machine before anyone else. Price will drop once they start shipping.

Shouldn't it be the opposite? Shouldn't they give pre-orders a discount? I bet that's what Valve is going to do and it's how they're going to beat the Rift.
>>
>>52281457
Vive has always said they were going to cost more than Rift, but they knew that if they entered the game first and then Rift came out a month later and were cheaper they'd lose round one. So they decide to delay, wait for Rift to bite the "Fuck, yeah, it's expensive" bullet so they can come out and go "Yeah, we're more expensive, but WE HAVE SHINY CONTROLLERS" and then take the day.
>>
>>52281431
Palmer's word means nothing. Everything he has said has always been damage control or sugar coated words. "Almost nothing" to him means 30 dollars because it's "almost nothing" of $600.
>>
>>52281431
He's also gone on record saying that it would be ridiculous for it to cost $600.
>>
>>52281457
The real question with regards to Vive is how well is the Steam controller selling?
If that is selling above expectations then there is very real chance that Valve/HTC will sell it under cost and make up the difference by selling games on Steam.
>>
>>52280339
thats odd, since the 980m is a low leakage 970 running at lower clock speeds and your cpu is just a low leakage low binned i7
>>
>>52281567
Yeah, 3 years ago. Lots happened.
>>
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>>52281273
>significantly higher resolution than most desktop monitors
>>
>>52281611
He also said Oculus would stay independent three weeks before Facebook bought them. He just fucking says things, they don't mean anything.
>>
>>52281633
>25%
>not statistically significant
>>
>>52281659
Yeah, and Notch wasn't going to sell out, either.

Two billion dollars is a lot of money, and if you're someone like Palmer, who believes this tech is the future (and it is, give it another
two or three years), having a massive company offer your little indie kickstarter venture to make a HMD

two
billion
dollars

is a game-changer.
>>
>>52281739
You'd be a fool NOT to sell out for $2 billion for the rights to unproven, 1st gen entertainment tech.
>>
PALMER IS ANSWERING QUESTIONS IN THE IAMA AS WE SPEAK

https://www.reddit.com/user/palmerluckey

EXPLAINS THE "IN THE BALLPARK" COMMENT BELOW

For gamers that already have high end GPUs, the equation is obviously different. In a September interview, during the Oculus Connect developer conference, I made the infamous “roughly in that $350 ballpark, but it will cost more than that” quote. As an explanation, not an excuse: during that time, many outlets were repeating the “Rift is $1500!” line, and I was frustrated by how many people thought that was the price of the headset itself. My answer was ill-prepared, and mentally, I was contrasting $349 with $1500, not our internal estimate that hovered close to $599 - that is why I said it was in roughly the same ballpark. Later on, I tried to get across that the Rift would cost more than many expected, in the past two weeks particularly. There are a lot of reasons we did not do a better job of prepping people who already have high end GPUs, legal, financial, competitive, and otherwise, but to be perfectly honest, our biggest failing was assuming we had been clear enough about setting expectations. Another problem is that people looked at the much less advanced technology in DK2 for $350 and assumed the consumer Rift would cost a similar amount, an assumption that myself (and Oculus) did not do a good job of fixing. I apologize.

>>52281768
Exactly.
>>
>>52281739
2 billion dollars so they can add a bunch of extraneous stuff and then price themselves out of the market. all anybody ever wanted was better screens and lenses, not headphones, shovelware and xbox controllers.
>>
>>52281817
2 high quality OLED screens with 25% more total res and 50% higher refresh rate than a desktop monitor, plus a 240Hz positional tracking system and lenses that rival a DSLR? None of that comes cheap.

also
>eve:valkyrie
>shovelware
>>
>>52281817
More like "$2 billion so I never have to worry about money ever again."
>>
>>52281890
i've heard eve: valkyrie is not good. and it's been confirm the audio components add a couple of hundred to the price.
>>
>>52281921
source.
>>
>>52281941
A friend of a friend of a friend who said he played it for two minutes on a DK1 and it sucked.
>>
>>52281965
I can't tell if you're serious or not but I was asking about the audio components
>>
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>>52281799
Its good to see he at least admitted the mistake instead of trying to run around it.

After sleeping on it, I wish I did preorder even with the absurd pricetag. Theres nothing else to look forward to as far as pc gaming, and I could have gotten a March shipping date instead of May+.

Now im sort of stuck with Vive if they dont charge more.
>>
>>52282114
I was going to wait for Pascal anyway for my rebuild.
>>
>>52282114
Yeah, I honestly like Palmer. He's changed, but he apologizes for his mistakes and tries to explain his actions whenever he isn't barred by corporate red tape.

It's going to be shipped to "select retailers" in April, if you're still interested and the first wave of reviews keep you interested.

I wish I was in a position where I could even consider buying the thing, because I want to work in VR when I get out of school. I genuinely believe it's the future.

But I can't see Vive being cheaper if it's bundled like it is, honestly.
>>
>>52281965
a dk1 is 1 step above the cardboard anon. you'll always get the worst expectation if you hear thh stories of holy grail CV1
>>
>This item will be released on December 31, 2016.

http://www.amazon.ca/Sony-Computer-Entertainment-Canada-E3ProjectMorpheusplaystation_4/dp/B01A9ENM6U/

DOA
>>
>>52278928
>599
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJElsNaC6yQ
>>
>>52277870
underrated ppost
>>
>>52282342
>what is a placeholder

I thought /g/ was tech-savvy.
>>
>>52282342
What in the actual fuck?
Thread replies: 403
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