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You are currently reading a thread in /g/ - Technology

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DOS/Win9x/Win3x/NT general

also welcome: Windows 2000, Mac OS 1.x-9.x

also also welcome: IRIX, SunOS, AIX, VMS, MVS, etc

tolerated: PowerPC OS X

fuck off: XP, Intel OS X
>>
>you will never have to deal with huge bulky monitors and half ton computers
>you will never have to wait until no one is on the phone to use the near empty internet
>you will never have to deal with installation diskette 3 of 4 being corrupted
>you will never be annoyed by your hard drive that sounds like a combination of a 747 and a minigun
>you will never have to listen to your modem scream and warble for ~1 minute before it acquires a connection
>you will never have to deal with the young, unsupported and near functionless Linux kernel

It feels so fucking good.
>>
>>42984447
AmigaOS?
Also linux 2.4 and below would be "retro"
>>
is skeumorphism allowed?
>>
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Hey,
I'm actually in the process of Peroxiding the entire case right now with a 80% solution,
I'll take a photo when I get home to show you the results,
Great computer none the less
>>
>>42984447
How is that DOS guide that guy in the previous threads was making going? (I believe his trip was swampfox)
>>
>>42984999
You forgot
>you will never wipe out a stupidly expensive SCSI drive because of improper termination
>>
>>42984999

>not wanting your computer to sound like the machine it is

>>42985042

nice SE/30

>tfw I only have a Plus with an HD20
>>
>>42985092

I don't know, I want him to complete it though.
>>
>>42985265
I don't know about you, but I kind of want to be able to hear the sound that comes out of my speakers.
>>
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Hey how is it going using your 200 pound unix boxes? Sunpci ftw
>>
>>42985131
Oh that's why solaris isn't working...
>>
>>42985364
I've never seen one of these in action.
Do they have access to the other devices in the PCI slots on the same motherboard?
Can they work in a modern computer?
And why are they so god damn expensive on ebay?
>>
>>42985364

>tfw have the same model but it's not compatible with my Blade 100 or 150

>>42985449

You can either hook up a separate monitor/keyboard to them and use them standalone or use software to run Win2k/9x on them in a window on Solaris. I don't know about PCI device access, they won't run in anything modern though as far as I'm aware, mine will only run on Solaris 8 or older.
>>
>>42985501
So basically this was the hardware equivalent of a virtual machine?
Could they share HDD space with the host computer or did they need their own separate drive?
>>
>>42985539

SunPCis are basically a cheap AMD K6 shitbox on a card, and they share disk space with the host system.

still bretty good for running Win2K and Office or whatever else you need, though
>>
>>42985449
There expensive because there used in industrial automation if you want it I give you it for 300.
>>
>>42985638
I don't have a sun system to put it in.
I would if I had the system to put it in however.
But thanks for the info, I've always been curious about PCI SBCs
>>
>>42985674
Uh... This and a sun enterprise 250 with 6 hard drives for 800$ It's a good deal!
>>
>>42985265
This shit's pimped out bro
>>
>>42985860
I make just over $800/month at $9.25/hr ($7.81 after taxes) and the fact that I only work ~20-25 hours/week because we run out of work early all the time.
That, and that thing is huge. I'd have no where to put it.
How would you even ship that thing? It looks like it would weigh as much as me, if not more.

But if I did have the money, I wouldn't hesitate.
>>
>>42985977

You'd have to freight ship something that fucking massive.
>>
>>42986027
I just looked up the manual.
118lbs Maximum weight.

Up to two UltraSPARC II CPUs and 2GB RAM
Honestly this thing is about as fast as the old Dell sitting next to me from 2005.
(No, not my main PC)
>>
>>42986094

>you'll never own an E250 and hang a shitload of terminals off of it
>>
>>42986128
I could probably emulate this entire system on my current PC if I wanted to.
>>
>>42986150

you could, but what's the point? :^)
>>
>>42986160
There really isn't one.
Everything this system could do in terms of processing power and available software could be done on my PC way faster.
Though, I would like to play around with an old SGI system. Probably an Indigo2 or an old Indy.
As far as I know, there are no emulators capable of running SGI software.
>>
>>42986094
It's has wheels :) the good things about it are it has awesome security features and like I mentioned can run the sunpci which I have installed. It also accepts 6 hot swap scsi drives it took 2 people to get it up my stairs. It's pretty rare too and the prices are fucking absurd so that's why I'm not scrapping it
>>
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>>42985042
It even have internet
>>
>>42986212
Honestly I would buy it if I had the extra cash laying around.
It would make a great collectors item.
What state do you live in?
>>
>>42986210

I don't think there are any SPARC emulators either, I really like the look of older sun gear though.

If you go SGI, get an O2, Indigo2s are okay but the ones with software are 3expensive, O2s are still pretty good and don't need special monitors.

>>42986212

I wish I could find some decent sun gear here, I only find low-end workstations like Ultra 5s.
>>
>>42986300
QEMU comes with emulators for ARM, SPARC, MIPS and x86 as far as I know.
There were a few others however.
>>
>>42986329

I always forget about QEMU
>>
>>42986356
Is it possible to run SunOS or older Solaris distributions in QEMU?
>>
>>42986371

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/QEMU/SunOS_4.1.4

Apparently you can eat least 4.1.4 on it.
>>
>>42986275
Nj. I often vist Maryland and Florida though
>>
>>42986394

>eat least 4.1.4 on it

what the fuck?

>at least put 4.1.4 on it
>>
>>42986300
I have sparc stations i could sell...
>>
>>42986398
I live in Georgia.
So assuming you sent it from NJ, the shipping costs would be astronomical.

If I were you, I'd put it to use.
Make a web server out of it or something.
>>
>>42986414

I've got a pair of SS2s, a 10, a 20, two Ultra 5s, a Blade 100, and a Blade 150.

>tfw they all have dead NVRAM batteries and the 20 won't turn on anymore for some reason
>>
>>42986431
If you drove down to west palm beach Florida there's a strong possibility you could have it.
>>
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Is C64 talk welcome?
>>
Half of you had yet to be born when these bad boys we're in their prime.

Pictured:
Commodore Amiga 1000
Commodore 128D
Commodore 128
Sega SC-3000H
>>
>>42986536

>I'll never own a 128D

How compatible was that shit with C64 applications?
>>
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>>42986536
>Sega SC-3000H
fuck
>>
>>42986571

As far as I know, it has near full compatibility.
>>
>>42986716

noice

I love the 128D's styling, I've never seen one though.

now I want to dig out my PET/CBMs from the shed
>>
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A/UX is pretty neat, a mac compatible (kinda) UNIX (kinda)
>>
WINDOWS 2K?
>>
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>>42988103
>better scaling than windows 8
>>
>>42988090
I've heard people say it's a better UNIX than OS X since the GUI "embraces and integrates with the UNIX core", as opposed to "building on top of it".
>>
>>42989612
I assume this is one of the reasons. This is what you get if you execute one of the coreutils in the Finder.

I can get and share more screenshots if anyone is interested.
>>
Other thread was baleeted, so bump with Terminator II Pocket PC.
>>
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Apple IIe, stolen from an old school here in Italy...
>>
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Just installed Windows 3.1 and Calmira on my Toshiba T3100e just because.

Runs like absolute dogshit on the 286 with 1MB RAM with Calmira open.
>>
>>42990783
Uh, thats win95
>>
>>42990789
No, it's Windows 3.1 with Calmira.
http://www.calmira.de/
>>
>>42990758
bretty good
>>
>>42990789
REKT
>>
>>42990783
wallpaper...?
>>
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My Riva TNT2 just came. I really do think this is a Pro now. a plain TNT2 would've had a slower core and memory clock. This one matches up with what the Pro should be clocked at.

Don't think it matters that much as supposedly, these were easy to overclock.
>>
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>>42986740

SOMEONE SAID PET/CBM?
>>
>>42984447
>Ruby
Wait, what?
Was there another product named Ruby back then?
What was it?
What happened to it?
>>
>>42995155
Where do you see Ruby?
>>
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>all those SE/30s

I only have a Classic, /retro/ ;_;

Also, I think we should create an IRC. I mean, all OSes listed in the OP post can run an IRC client of SOME sort.
>>
>>42990783
more pics please...looks beautiful
>>
>>42996482

An all machines can be used as a terminal for a Unix machine, thus can access an IRC channel.
>>
>>42996567
I prefer native IRC clients.

Anyway, I'm hanging out in #/g/retro on irc.rizon.net, port 6667.
>>
>>42996567
>>
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>>42996708

Heh, I have a photo of mine doing the exact same thing here.
>>
This is pretty much what I want to setup an old computer to do. Be my dedicated IRC machine. irssi in screen is getting kinda old.
>>
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>tfw no functional unix machine to access IRC from

fug
>>
>>42997492

>leaving my novelty /int/ risk trip on
>>
>>42997492
Nice little XT

here is mine!
>>
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>>42984447

I have been a mac user since birth, love Mac OS 9 and ppc os x. Why not lisa os/apple dos too?
>>
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>>42990758

Niice

This is a rare masterpiece
>>
>>42997492
what's the sun stuff?
>>
>>42998019
i'm not sure that masterpiece is the right word
>>
>>42997934

noice 3.5'' FDD

I'm still trying to find a copy of SyTOS to get my tape drive working ;_;

>>42998150

ded

NVRAM is fucked on all three and I haven't ordered new chips for them yet, two SS2s and an SS10 (with no hard drive)
>>
>>42998195
thank you~

This is tomato my 286 at clone~
>>
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64 shades of greyscale, Win 3.11
Need to find a good PCMCIA type 2 ethernet for it
>>
>>42998237
>64 shades of grey
ftfy
>>
>>42998375
640 x 480 x 64 grey scales
also can output external VGA as 640 x 480 x 256 color
>>
>>42984447
Reminder that Computer Chronicles exists and deals with /retro/ computers from 1980s to early 2000s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYOW7gEdGMk

Has episodes on OS's (Win 95, 3.1, Some macs all got dedicated episodes) Web Browsers, Games, Hardware (Including very old laptops, and the Apple ][ in the 80s.)

I also remember one about a touch-screen 5150.

Look about, you'll probably find one that interests you personally - they're almost all on youtube.
>>
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>>42999761

RIP Gary Kildall.
>>
>>42990783
That looks really cool.
>>
>>42999761

that would be the HP 150

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-THdG5gVTw

>not 100% PC-compatible
>>
>>43000179
Ah.

I like that we had touch-screen systems in '83 (and even in this, Stuart notes that touch-screens aren't a new technology), yet it took so long for mainstream use to begin.

To an extent, I wish it had been longer. ;-;
>>
>>43000812

Touch screens made it to mainstream in the 90s with the multiplication of touch-screen based devices, but no one wanted them, businessmen excepted.
>>
>>43000812
>>43000872

>tfw I have a nonfunctional touch screen monitor for PS/2 systems and I have no idea how to fix it
>>
>>43000872
They work pretty well in restaurants where host/ess types are already standing but you'd get gorilla-arm trying to use one while sitting at a desk. Same with light-pen tech for pointing.
>>
It still upsets me what Commodore did to the Amiga. It shouldn't have ended like that.
>>
>>42990783
http://youtu.be/xSueEm2Cw28?t=17m34s
May be of interest to you.
>>
Sony VAIO C1 Picturebook with Window ME. Might consider to convert it into a portable linux laptop but need to check the spec can handle i.t
>>
>>42990801
>It brings Windows 3.1 up to date with some of the advanced user interface enhancements from the Windows world

Why does this even exist.

Awesome tho.

> captcha: sksday
> /k/ would be happy
>>
>>43004222
It's from at most 1997, so it makes some sense people would still have 3.1 machines lying around.
>>
>>43001905
>>
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And you anon, do you have an MSX?
>>
>>42998237
You should try to get NetBSD running on that beauty.
>>
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>>42996482
Is that an ALPS Apple keyboard?
If you want to get into programming on that beast, check this out:
http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-programmer%E2%80%99s-workshop
>>
>>43005521
I want one!
>>
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>>42990783
Probably posted this a million times already, but in addition to that sexy Plasma display, the Toshiba T3100e has a mechanical keyboard by Alps. The feeling is about 80% MX Red, 20% MX Brown.
Got the T3100e for $20 at the flea market a month ago, also found the ThinkPad 701C the same day for $15.
>>
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>>42991555
>>
>>42995155
>>42996398
The black box.

http://www.trademarkia.com/ruby-73522447.html
>>
>>42984999
>>you will never be annoyed by your hard drive that sounds like a combination of a 747 and a minigun
My SCSI equipped PowerMac G3 sounds like a helicopter taking off whenever I do a fsck, or when I'm upgrading a bunch of packages.
>>
>>43004066
I remember that one. I looked at it first in an apartment store in Mexico. It had a Pentium III and the standard (for the time) Windows 98. It was 2000 or 2001 I think. It was like $2000 dollars.
>>
>>42998229
>keyboard lock
>an actual key
>>
>>43006848
A bunch of Pentium class machines have that too, it disables keyboard input.
>>
>>42990676
>pocket pc
Shit I still have an old HP Jornada 720 and an even older Compaq
somehow I got an emulator and doom running on the HP. The Compaq really wasn't capable of much.
>>
>>43006848
you've never seen that before?
how old are you?
>>
What VAPORWAVE DO YOU LISTEN TO?
>>
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>>42988090
I'm still floored that it's finally emulatable.
>>
>>42988090
>localhos
Fucking Apple.
>>
>>42986300
I've always wanted an SGI box, but what the hell could I actually run on the thing?
>>
>>43007500
The original IRIX. There was one guy on /r/unixporn who used his IRIX box as his primary system even today, using X forwarding for shit like modern browsers.
>>
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>>42996482
You're the anon with the Nichijou mac? Neato.

someone mistook me for you because I'd set up System 7 to look like pic related (which is only in emulation)
>>
>>43007489
oh shit, I didn't notice that, haha

based apple
>>
>>43004222

Windows 3.1 still shipped new on some systems until around 1998
>>
>>43007445

Can you still find any shit that still runs natively on A/UX?

Is there any way to compile freetard textmode applications like Alpine on it?
>>
Damn you all Americans with your nice ebay. Here ebay.co.uk doesn't even have IBM model M keyboards ;_;
>>
>>43007500

There's people on Nekochan that still daily drive Octanes and O2s, you can run all of your favorite *nix software on them plus SGI exclusives and they are ridiculously over-specced for their time.

I can still surf 4chan on my base-spec Indigo2 that rolled out of the factory in October 1993.
>>
>>43007806
People were rolling on either no computers, ZX Spectrums and Amigas at the time Model M came out.
>>
>>42985638
This, I have 3 milling machines that run very similar things. Recently had to buy a new 486, cost $700.

Yes they do still make new 486's.
>>
>>43007631
It's probably an 8-character hostname limit or something.
>>
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>>42988103
stretched gif as background image
:3

I installed w2k server beta on a 486 with 32 megs of ram
>>
>>43007795
I dunno if there's much that actually requires A/UX to run. As far as I know, it's just System 6 (System 7 for A/UX 3.x) with Unix underpinnings. You could build Unix software of the era on it and you could run the wide selection of Mac apps.

as for compile shit like alpine, I really doubt it
I'm really trying to think of what recent software you could build on it.
>>
>>43007913
The Wikipedia page says they stopped producing 486s in 2007

Why not virtualize this shit?
>>
>>43008072
Intel was the one that stopped making them
Nothing stops AMD, VIA, or you from making your own.
>>
>>43008094
True.
But still, why not virtualize?
>>
>>43008126
Virtualize a cnc milling machine with custom isa stepper controllers that output several hundred watts each... I think not. The machines are still worth 20-40 grand.
>>
>>43008126
Because nobody wants to virtualize interfaces like SCSI, ISA, PCI, etc
>>
>>43008146
>>43008168
I see.
But why not use some P3 box from the late 90's that have ISA slots then?
It's not like the programs would have to be changed around, so long as the OS they run on (which I'm assuming is probably DOS or an ancient version of Linux) runs on the P3 box.
~$100 vs $700 is quite a deal if you ask me.
>>
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>>43008168
>nobody wants to virtualize interfaces like SCSI
Linus fucking loves SCSI emulation so much, that all block devices use it (e.g. /dev/sd*)
>>
>>43008261
Software is written in x86 Assembly to be accurate down to the clock for each processor
A P3 goes faster than a 486 and doesn't do the same stuff
Don't blame me, blame Electrical Engineers that think that everything will be the same forever and never stop to think about portability
>>
>>43008146
This, plus the vm could introduce latency in a system that is required to be deterministic.
>>
>>43008314
This is what happens if your system doesn't have a real-time-clock.
>>
>>43008345

RTCs were a thing well into the 286 era, but when you write your shit to work with a specific hardware set you can fuck it up hard when you move to an infinitely faster chip like a Pentium III or even a higher-clocked 486
>>
>>43008314
>system is worth 20-40 grand
>dependent on hard to find parts that cost hundreds of hundreds of dollars
>code was written with no portability
Jeez what a mess.

This is why people started writing programs in C/C++

So what are you gonna do in about 20-25 years when this 486 bites the dust and the only ones left around are in museums?

Though, I do remember seeing a program that could make older programs that were written to work with a specific clock rate run slower but the name alludes me at the moment.
>>
>>43008453
Welcome to the magical land of Industrial/scientific hardware.
>>
>>43008453

>implying the 486 is hard to find

as >>43008094 said they still make them under license and they made fucking millions of them, that's just how shit is
>>
>>43008453
>Though, I do remember seeing a program that could make older programs that were written to work with a specific clock rate run slower but the name alludes me at the moment.

There is a lot of those.
Mo'Slo, Bremze, SLOWDOWN, AT-SLOW, CPUKiller, MySlow, PentSlow, VariSlow, et. al.
>>
>>43008652
They may still make the 486, but what about the boards that the CNC uses?
He said it was a custom ISA board, and ISA motherboards are hard to find as-is.
>>
>>43008692

As with anything, you're stuck ordering from the manufacturer or sourcing one from a reseller.
>>
>>43008711
or you could get a new cnc machine once your insurance pays you after the machine craps out.
>>
>>43008740

bretty much
>>
>>43008453
If we are spending more on repairs than it would cost to lease a newer one we will stop repairing it. Purely an economic derision and a very easy one at that. Have had the machines for over a decade and we got them used... Only one has had a MB/CPU failure Another has had a variable frequency spindle driver go out but all in all they are quite low maintenance.

I like the PC based shit a hell of a lot better than ge/fanuc where everything is proprietary. With the pc gear I swap out the floppy with a 2gb ide sd card adapter.

The fanuc machine we have was designed for punch tape (^_^) punch tape fed to it from RS-232, new laptop did not have RS-232, no problem they make wireless adapters that interface via Bluetooth.
>>
>>43008711
I have the repair manual with schematics of every board along with vendors and vendor part numbers. Most things I can find on my own. Sometimes I have to call them up and order from a distributor which sucks.

>>43008740
That's not how insurance works buddy. Also anything can be fixed. You just have to decide when its worth it or not.

>>43008692
The motherboard is on a card plugged into an ISA back plane. The thing actually has a solid state rom isa board that it boots from. There is a pata hdd too but it only holds the nc files and some of the configs. Quite a rugged design.
>>
>>43008791
Sounds logical.
I love it when they have standard PC hardware driving machinery. Makes it so much easier to work with.

Fun Fact: The program that missile silos use is still loaded from an 8" floppy.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/29/u-s-nuclear-missile-silos-still-use-floppy-disks-but-have-battlestar-galactica-style-cyber-security/
>>
>>43008856

>tfw my first real retrocomputer was an industrial wallmount 486 and I killed it because of inexperience
>>
>>42984447

OP, why dont you have allow XP (released in 2001) but you allow PowerPC OS X (2001-2009)
>>
>>43010763
PowerPC has been dead for a while now.
Windows XP in the form of Windows POS 2009 is still supported.
>>
>>42996482

>anime pic
>macintosh classic
>>
>>43010787

Yeah, a lot of retards still use XP.
>>
>>42996482
>Polish language
I'm impressed that those macs had support for languages other than english.
>>
>>43010817
Those were not official but rather 3rd party localisations usually done by the distributor of Apple stuff in the region.
>>
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Not really a computer, but I still want it.
>>
>>43006215
Thanks.
>>
>>42996708
>>42996738

I love these. I have an Amiga 500 but the problem is the keyboard seems to have some broken columns so the column 1QAZ won't work at all.

I don't know if it might be because of some unknown stains on the foil with traces to the buttons or it might be just a cut trace but I haven't noticed anything like that.
>>
>>43012591
Try to clean it, and it it still doesn't work, check for a keyboard replacement in Amiga Kit:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=49_89&products_id=336
>>
>>43012627
I think I'll get another Amiga (either an A600 or an A1200) if cleaning the keyboard won't work.
>>
>>43012649

Why? The keyboard is easy to replace.
>>
>>43012690
Sadly getting a different Amiga model will be cheaper than buying a replacement keyboard around here (Poland)
>>
>>43012715

Oh I see. Well good luck then.
>>
>>43007541
cute!
>>
>>42996482
Jestes Polakiem?
>>
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finally got my vga>scart cable working proper

the trouble i was having with sync was caused by a loose/dirty scart plug/port, wiggling it around a bit got it going
i spent far too long trying to figure that out... guess that's what happens with 15 year old gear

surprisingly the cable is largely just wire-for-wire, bar the usb cable, which has a few resistors i tore out of a broken vcr that bring the voltage below 3v for use as an RGB-enable wire
>>
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>>43012508
The front looks like the PVM 20L4 I have. With the backlit buttons and all. Looking at those pictures, it seems they used a pretty-much identical faceplate. Although like every PVM, it's deep as hell, and only has BNC(RGB/YpBpr)/S-Video input.
>>
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>>43014972

I see. The Profeel doesn't seems to have any BNC input jack, only RCA for the sound and composite video, Mini-Din for S-Video and SCART/Jap-RGB21 for RGB.

Personally, I'm searching for pic related (same as >>43014625), could it be a 27 or 21 model. I just love the way it looks, and it must have a great picture quality.
>>
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A nice mixture of old and new. This is a Mac LC550 I recovered from my uni's physics department. Not pictured: a stack of 20meg hdd's and floppys.
>>
>>43015611

I love your desk anon.
>>
How much do you allow yourself to spend on old computers?

I've been looking around, but anything 486, amiga, or old mac is a little too expensive I think. I don't really have that many friends, so I get very few freebies.

Last I got was some shitty old LCD from my fathers workplace.
>>
>>43015745
as much as possible!

i need parts!
>>
>>43015745

The most I spent on an old computer was 60 bucks. It was my Amiga 500 with a C= 1085S-D3 monitor, and a box of floppies.
>>
Where do you get your diskettes from, /g/? I've been having a horrible time finding blank diskettes that I can use in my Osborne that aren't overpriced to hell and back.
>>
>>43015611
The system's fully loaded and they didn't even wipe student files. I also grabbed a Mac SE, but had to dump it due to extensive damage. I don't know how they stored their systems but the external drives had rubber feet and they melted into the casing and onto the boards.
>>
>>43015906
mainly school
>>
>>43015906

I got my last floppies last year, at a supermarket. They were here since the 90s, waiting for someone to buy them. You can also get some on Amigakit.
>>
>>43015906
I think Microcenter and Amazon still sell them.
>>
>>43016082
Amigakit doesn't look that bad, but I don't think my osborne can take double density disks.
>>
>>43015854
That's a lot cheaper than here. 60 bucks would at best give me an amiga 500 in poor shape.

Last night I saw someone try to sell a 486dx2 based "gaming PC" for about 150-200 dollars.

I would expect to find a generic PC like that for free. Just the parts are a lot cheaper on ebay.
>>
Anyone know how to load Windows XP from DOS (real DOS, I mean)

Surely there is some way to load ntldr from DOS?
>>
>>43016484
NO!
>>
>>43016484
grub4doges
>>
>>43016484
>XP
>ever
shiggy diggy bo biggy
>>
>>42990783
>T3100e

I had that
Parents sold it for £1 at a car boot sale ;_;
>>
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>>43016525
>anon, you were never using that PS1 system with a shitload of games for it anyways
>>
Man I love amiga demos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXqqT2Pn5kk

There's something funny you can see when watching Amiga and PC demos: on Amiga, 2D stuff are smoother than 3D, that's understandable, but when you watch a PC demo, 3D stuff is smoother than even a simple scrolling.
>>
>>43017043

C64 demos are pretty cool too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trR4jeAWlI8
>>
u guys actually pay for this shit?

the old software is kinda cool, would be nice to reverse engineer and emulate it (or run natively through custom-made drivers and kernel extensions), but the old hardware is objectively terrible today
>>
>>43018540

Yeah, and you also wonder why some people buy old cars? Why people buy old buildings?
>>
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Irix user reporting in.
Was running Quake II on the Onyx last night but a breakdown has forced me to use the O2 until replacement parts come in.
>>
>>43018607
An old car can still drive fine, albeit more expensively than a new one.

A new building may work, though may require greater expense for renovations and inefficiencies.

An old computer cannot do what is even mildly expected today. It's like buying a broom and proclaiming usefulness over vacuums.
>>
>>43018849

It's mostly hobby computing, for some people there is something attracting about these machines, not just because it's "old", but because of the way they're designed, the way the various manufacturer were experimenting.
Like old cars, these computers still run fine, even if it's slower than new ones. It's just that we don't run them for the same purpose.
>>
>>43010763

PowerPC ended with the G5 and isn't really used anymore, while everyone in their fucking mother runs XP.
>>
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>>43018804

>1600SW
>those peripherals
>>
>>43018849

literally the only thing an old computer can't do that new ones can is the internet m80
>>
>>43014972
>>43015352
you can hook up a pc to the BNC connectors the same way i did with this
>>43013916
>>43014484
>>
>>43019928

Even on 8bit computers you can go on the internet. Just look at Lunix on C64.
>>
>>43018804
so fucking cool...
do you make movies as a hobby or work for a local channel ?
>>
>>43012508
>>43014972
The 21 and 27in ProFeels are essentially consumer market oriented versions of the PVM 2030 and 2530 respectively.
>>
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>>43008023
rad, knowing the price of the license of a single of those discs, too, that's something you got there, but sure it's not worth shit today, just collector's.
>>
>>43021484

What about the Kx21ps1 and Kx27ps1? These weren't called Profeel at first.
>>
>>43021430
Save for the modem it was all bought for $80 from a business who apparently digitized old media. I spend more time browsing or messing with Softimage 3D because there's a GL bug when you play quake on the graphics chipset.
>>
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>>43015906
I'm switching over from floppies to these devils.
>>
>>43019928
Amiga had (has?) network cards and a TCP stack. Granted they were third party, but you can go online with 'em.
>>
Why are original Macintosh computers so pricey? I saw one on Kijiji today and it was $200. I just want a retro feel and a distraction-less way of typing.
>>
>>43018849
You can do everything except for internet, like >>43019928 said.

and even still, you can probably get IRC up

I've actually considered getting a RasPi to hook older systems up to so they'd telnet into it over serial and it'd connect to the internet for them.

Of course, I'd need some older systems (my original idea was to use a RasPi as a wifi box for an old 68k PowerBook that I had my eye on).
>>
>>43021931
>I just want a retro feel and a distraction-less way of typing
Just use Emacs with a retro theme and the toolbar/menu/scrollbar disabled.
>>
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>>43021666
I was speaking on the Kx **hv1 models; Physically they are nearly exact matches for the 2030 and 2520.

Those Kx**ps1 models look familiar to some mid to late 80s PVMs, specifically with those protective outer panels, but I can't seem to remember the model number.

>>43013916
I really need to get something like that put together so I can pipe some low res animu out to my PVM. 480i from the PS3 looks alright, but it could be so much better.

So many photos, so many ruined by moire patterns and redraw.
>>
>>43022132
>2520
2530*
>>
>>43021931
Why not check ebay?

also, for the love of christ don't get a Mac with less than 4MB RAM, that shit is suffering

and don't try to use System 7 on a Mac slower than 16MHz, that's also suffering

>>43022132
>dem scanlines

why am I now hard
>>
>>43022342
>480i scanlines
I got some 240p if you're interested.
Still need to upload the more recent(read: past 8-9 months)
https:[email protected]/sets/
All vidya
>>
>>42997963
honestly, that's sufficiently old that it's assumed to be allowed
>>
>>42988563
did you get further than this? I'm very interested.
>>
>>43021221
>>43021883

Yeah, but it's shit. They can browse but they can't really do much of anything that the average person is doing on their systems today.

But if you just want to do other stuff, like word processing, spreadsheeting, email, etc, you could do that on a 486 with no problem.
>>
>>43018849
>An old car can still drive fine, albeit more expensively than a new one.
Not if it's a Model T-ford - it doesn't even do what's mildly expected today in terms of ride-comfort or speed!

People just play with them for fun. The hardware in itself is fun to play with. You wouldn't use a model-t for a serious business trip either.
>>
>>43022132
i still haven't quite nailed down the reason why i don't get such well-defined scanlines like you do (really mine are practically non-existant)

that's a photo of a PVM, right? i realize those are professional monitors, and can expect something about them to be better

but what is it? is my tv just not accurate enough/not sharp enough, and therefore bleeds out all the lines?
is it because the color mask in my tv is arranged in a staggered pattern?
am i missing some setting/tweak i can attempt/perform to help this?

see >>43013916
>>
>>43024105
>see
>same post you replied to
excuse me for i am quite tired right now
>>
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>>43024122
It's fine.

I'm going to assume that is somewhere around a 13-15in set, yes? Scanlines are less apparent on smaller screens.

>is it because the color mask in my tv is arranged in a staggered pattern?
Yes; Your set is a shadow mask(as the great majority of CRT TVs are) where as mine is aperture grille. The fact that it is professional monitor and is much sharper does help in the matter but Sony's Trinitron line (and copy-tron variants) have especially well defined scanlines, and are the style that most emulators/filters have tried to, well, emulate.
You're not likely to see readily visible scanlines on shadow/slotmask sets unless they're getting close to 30in.
I already linked the album with a good majority of my photos of the PVM in >>43022621 , but here's some scanlines showing on a 35in Toshiba.

>am i missing some setting/tweak i can attempt/perform to help this?
Even with absolutely perfect convergence/geometry/etc(which is, for all intents and purposes, impossible on CRTs) you can't change the physics of the matter that each line of the image being drawn to the screen is going to be very close to the next when using such a small CRT.
Add fake scanlines to your image and display it in what would effectively be 120p?
>>
>>43024366
it's 20"
thanks for the hints
i do get somewhat visible scanlines in darker areas of the image

>Add fake scanlines to your image and display it in what would effectively be 120p?
yea, can't see that being too much use
can't add lines in 480i either for obvious reasons, and 480p is also out of the question (besides, 480p w/ fake scanlines would pretty much result in the same thing as 240p, on-screen, wouldn't it?)
>>
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>>43024657
alright,

so it seems my tv's picture settings has brightness and contrast swapped around

lowering the brightness ("contrast") makes the scanlines far more visible (which, by watching it go down, is clearly a result of color bleed, which itself, is as you say, too small a gap for a tube of this quality/mask to keep properly seperated)
>>
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>>43024657
>can't see that being too much use
Yeah, it was just a bit of a joke to be honest. I'm sure there's someone out there who would go through the trouble of it though, for one reason or another.

>480p w/ fake scanlines would pretty much result in the same thing as 240p, on-screen, wouldn't it?
Visually it would look quite close, aside from small differences in brightness and bloom. I've seen several people in /vr/'s CRT Thread do just that (with PC monitors of course) some very nice results.

>>43024904
>too small a gap for a tube of this quality/mask to keep properly separated
Your tube looks to have quite good convergence and sharpness(partially due to using a high quality signal). It's just a matter of size and screen type, which isn't even a con, more so of a preference.
>>
>>42986522
>metroid 2 box art poster with super metroid on it

why
>>
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>>43025002
>i recognize the top of that S!, i hear you say

>Your tube looks to have quite good convergence and sharpness(partially due to using a high quality signal). It's just a matter of size and screen type, which isn't even a con, more so of a preference.
well that's good to hear i suppose, so it's not that anything's *bad* per-se, just different

i was kinda hoping to see sharp scanlines like in arcade machines, but tbh i'm not really sure if i could play a game for a long period with them (at least, the kind that are pure black)

changing the brightness has encouraged me to use something other than the default 50% though, not minimum as above (too dim, maybe alright at midnight), but something reasonable (was actually pretty damn bright before, clearly meant for longer viewing distance, not the 1.5 metres between my desk and bed...)
at this more resonable brightness the scanlines are still noticable, so that's nice

where you say preference, is it not possible to deliberately cause bleed on your PVM? (or do you mean in general, others just prefer a blended-in image with no lines)

ps. what are you doing to take those pictures? i can't seem to convince my camera to take an image half as good as what the crt is actually displaying
>>
>>43025360
incase you're wondering, yes i got this tv a couple days ago
and yes i got it after reading that it was possible to hook them up through vga

i'd looked into rgb mods on real consoles before, but didn't even consider vga could be used for it, too
>>
>>43025360
>where you say preference, is it not possible to deliberately cause bleed on your PVM?
I could probably turn the brightness way up(which is something you should never do for any period of time with a CRT) and open the aperture(currently all the way down) would make it bloom quite heavily and bleed into eacher a bit.

What I meant by preference is there are people that prefer shadowmasks over aperture grilles. I've never had a chance to see a decent shadowmask displaying RGB, so I can't really compare on that level; The pure amount of pixel clarity has given me quite an attraction to trinitrons however.

>what are you doing to take those pictures?
Absolutely light in the room other than the CRT itself, lowest ISO setting my shitty point'n'shoot will allow, a steady hand/pile of boxes in place of a tripod, and quite a bit of luck.
When I first started taking photos of the PVM(and had really no knowledge of how to properly use a camera at all) I had a shit|good/usable ratio of something like 30:1; Nowadays, when I'm not getting stupid amounts of noise and/or banding from the low quality camera, and the image doesn't come out with a moire pattern covering 90% of the screen, I'd like to think it's closer to 8:1.

>I can't seem to convince my camera to take an image half as good as what the crt is actually displaying
Just one of the things you have to accept when trying to photograph CRTs. It is always going to look better in person than it does in a photo.
>>
>>43025585
>i'd looked into rgb mods on real consoles before
There are a few caveats to this, but many consoles will readily give an RGB signal with no modification at all, just the right cable.
>>
>>43025641
I think the photos in this thread looks a lot better than my TV. Everything looks a little blurry, even when using RGB SCART. Composite looks worse, but RGB isn't as good as it was on my previous TV.

I guess one nice thing about this is that text doesn't look pixelated.
>>
>>43025641
i guess there's really no way to decide until i find an aperture grille display to play with
>>It is always going to look better in person than it does in a photo.

>lowest ISO setting
which, out of curiosity? i've been using a shutter speed a little slower than the current vsync rate, else i end up getting bars
i also have:
dark areas visible = light areas blown out
light areas fine = dark areas too dark
it's almost as if the crt has kickass contrast or something

>>43025779
yea, i was kinda surprised to see that, i'd previously mainly been looking at murrican versions of games/consoles (despite not being murrican), simply because most PAL things are just hacked up NTSC things made to "work" in PAL
but (some) PAL regions have scart, which i now know is pretty nice (in that it's a standardized way of getting RGBs in consumer gear)
>>
>>43025857
These photos are very heavily cherry picked from everything that I've taken, and like you said before, it is a professional monitor.

>Composite looks worse, but RGB isn't as good as it was on my previous TV
The wording of this has me a tad confused; Perhaps the use of but in that position.

I'm going to assume that you're in Europe, in which case finding another CRT with SCART should be piss easy.

>>43025933
>which, out of curiosity?
The cheap point'n'shoot I have has a ISO 64 setting for its general photo setting, but I usually end up going with ISO 100 in its Close Up mode.
Windows seems to be telling me that it's actually going somewhere between an ISO in the high 90s, and nearly 200(I'm going to assume these were taken with ISO selection set to automatic). The same seems to be happening with exposure and a few other settings.
Unsurprisingly, the better photos all seem to be floating around ISO 100 and 1/16 exposure(as it should be for 60hz refresh).
>>
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>>43022932
Well somewhat.
I would like to get the GUI up and running but I can't figure it out.
>>
>>43026159
I was so happy when I found that font in Slackware's kbd package
>>
>>43026212
There's just something so cozy yet professional about it.
>>
>>43026158

>it's almost as if the crt has kickass contrast
A good CRT should have pretty damn good contrast.
I tend to adjust exposure bias as needed, which seems to happen a lot with SNES games in particular; Everything is always so bright.

>>43025933
>but (some) PAL regions have scart, which i now know is pretty nice (in that it's a standardized way of getting RGBs in consumer gear)
They didn't change the video output connectors between regions. A SCART cable made for a PAL SNES will and does work fine with an NTSC(U) SNES with a few minor modifications. Can't seem to remember off the top of my head, but it's either a few resistors or capacitors on the video lines, nothing more. I bought mine already modified, but it's something that could easily be done yourself. The photo of Super Metroid is RGB from an american SNES1. Spyro is component from a PS2, though you can get RGB out of it or an american PS1 just as easily.
>>
Why XP isn't welcome? isn't it legacy now?
>>
>>43026158
RGB isn't as good as I expected, but it looks worse with composite. Is this more clear?

>in which case finding another CRT with SCART should be piss easy
It is. People usually give them away for free. It is big, heavy, and they want it gone.
>>
>>43026159

/usr/openwin/bin/openwin
>>
>>43026158
first quote there isn't me

>The cheap point'n'shoot...
okay, that's quite low, my compact can go up to 1600, while i haven't had a chance yet to try a lot of setting, between 40 and 80 has been alright so far, there's other setting that'll probably help, but i'd have to some trial and error with them since i'm not really an expert on either cameras nor crts

>A good CRT should have pretty damn good contrast.
heh, that was a joke, this crt blows away my shitty average lcd i use as a computer monitor when it comes to contrast, easily

>They didn't change the video output connectors between regions.
yea, my comment is more that the term "scart" and "rgb" never came up
i grew up in nz, which is a pal region, but scart is non-existant there, been in australia a few years now, but didn't know scart showed up here until i got back from picking up this tv and noticed the port on the back (which lead to some research)
>>
>>43026243

>still has a massive share of the desktop market
>implying support from Microsoft has anything to do with retro-status

m8 you can discuss XP elsewhere on /g/, it isn't retro and it won't be for a long time
>>
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>>43026347
>>
>>43026378

>still has a massive share of the desktop market

That got me thinking, is there anyone that still uses win 95/98 on a daily basis?
>>
>>43026287
It is.
It could be that that particular CRT had had a hard life and seen a significant number of hours.
>It is big, heavy, and they want it gone.
That's how I got the 32in Trinitron that is currently blocking the stairs to the attic. Too heavy to move easily, too large to make of use anywhere in the house currently, and you can't even throw them away easily at this point.

>>43026355
I think this model will do the same, but it looks like complete horse shit with anything over 400 or 600; I don't use them, so I can't really say much.

>i'd have to some trial and error with them since i'm not really an expert on either cameras nor crts
That's exactly what I ended up doing. I'm neither of those, I've just been picking things up along the way as needed.

>Aus/NZ
Yeah, from what I've heard, while there was limited SCART support seen in Australia, it seems to have been scattered about. Better than being in the US; only thing that came with SCART here was a small line of consoles tvs in the mid 80s; Dimension and their EIA Multiport.
One popped up for free early this year, but I sadly had no way to get it; Would have been a nice antique if nothing else.
>>
>>43026408

fug :DD

I have no idea what's going on there, maybe a messed up config file or QEMU doesn't support it very well.

Have you tried TME?

http://people.csail.mit.edu/fredette/tme/#sun-u1-nbsd

Nathan Lineback (toastytech) used it to run SunOS for his GUIs page.

>>43026452

My XT in >>42997492 was still daily driven until 2010

You'll also probably see it a lot in Industrial control or businesses still running old legacy software.
>>
>>43026452
Apparently the creator of pic-related still uses an Amiga today.

Not sure if true.
>>
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>>43027002
Yeah.

We don't like to talk about the furry.
>>
I wouldn't mind using an old computer daily, but I don't think I would use it as my main computer or for any kind of browsing.

I'd use it for IRC and email.
>>
>>43027615
Think of it like a motorcycle. Fun to ride on weekends, but you wouldn't want to go pick up a couch with it.
>>
>>43027465
>and I'm Linux
>>
>>42997492
Oh deary me, not Captain "Hurr I Can't Buy a Hercules Card unless it's local." again.

And what do you know? He also uses a trip. Figures.
>>
>>43027465
not "AND I'M BSD"
>>
>>43027814
Why are you so upset by him?

Assuming you're the same guy who complained last time and he's the same guy with the graphics-thing. I'm just going by the IBM.
>>
>>43027858
>Why are you so upset by him?

Because he's autistic and proud of it. Glad he finally embraced his autism and started using a trip.
>>
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>>43025641
have you tried cave story on your PVM?
>>
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>>43027912
Just another one of the set of pictures I've yet to get up on flickr.

NXengine core running in Retroarch Wii in 240p.

I've got a slightly better photo that I'd post, but this one seems to fit your question better.
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s6LpxMEZ5o

Wow. I even miss the old look of OSX.

>it will never be the past again
>it will always be the present
;-;
>>
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>>43027966
There is yet another, in quality similar to the Super Metroid photo above, but it's a bit too samey as it's another text box of Sue.
>>
>>43027966
nice, i'm using retroarch as well, only in linux

the tv is my second 'monitor', i can drag windows to/from it
>>
>>43016312
It's the same disks, but single density is lower capacity.

Also you can put 3.5" floppies in that thing but it's kinda tricky since they have power+data on the same cable.
>>
>>43026212
What font is it. It looks like OpenBSD framebuffer font
>>
>>43028041
As for machines like old Macs, Amiga, etc that use 3.5" DD, I understand that 1.44MB disks will usually work if you tape the hole over.
>>
>>43028036
Once I get around to getting/making a cable, I'm likely going to get a dedicated box for it.

Likely a p4 and an ati 9600 I have lying around; If the mobo hadn't died on me, I'd just use the old Dell which fit that description exactly. Worked quite nicely up until I planned to and was able to replace it with my current PC at the end of 2011.
>>
>>43028063
It's actually freaking huge. It's called sun12x22.
>>
Fun fact of the day: Most so-called "VGA" cards are really just emulations of the original IBM VGA standard which was very limited and shitty.
>>
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>>43028185
oh yea? going for windows or linux?
>>
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>>43028197
Here's what it looks like on my 1024x600 netbook
>>
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>>43028255
I think it'll be a good chance to actually get some experience with linux; Should also be less complicated to get going. No idea on which distro I'll end with; Something simple to start with for sure.
Could even dual boot.

Also, thanks for giving me a reason to post the photo I mentioned before.
>>
>>43028312
was that it? because i didn't look at your flickr again

i just happened to go past that in the game just now
>>
>>43028226
Straight VGA (under the original 1987 IBM spec) supports CGA/EGA modes plus 320x200x256, 640x480x2, and 640x480x16 with 256k of VRAM. The card consists of a single controller IC plus RAM, BIOS ROM, and TTL chips to attach it to the ISA bus.
>>
>Windows 2000
>/retro/

stay faggot /g/
>>
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Attempted to restore a Gateway P5-166 (Pic related, not my image) for a fun sleeper project (I only have the case, someone gutted the internals before I could get it) but the plastic has not aged well and most of the plastic slots that held the front panel onto the metal case have broken off. It's yellowed horribly well so it will need a peroxide bath and an entire cleaning before I do anything to it.

After that I began work on loosening the hinges off a Powerbook 150 that have seized up but I have had no luck so far in loosening it to a point where it does not crack the front bezel. Sadly however the previous owner did not take care of it.
>>
>>43028360
Like I said before, I have a good 8 or 9 months of photos that need to be "cherry picked" and uploaded.

I mentioned it in >>43028004
>a bit too samey as it's another text box of Sue.
>>
>>43028386
This.

Windows 2000 is still relevant and only a year older than XP, yet XP is not welcome here?

The discussion should be anything pre-1998 and I think even that is pushing it.
>>
>>43028312
also

i'm using arch, but it's my normal os, nothing dedicated

there are a couple arcade-oriented distros around, which even come configured for use with 15khz monitors
though i'd personally prefer to configure one myself, feels more personal that way

>>43028391
i see
>>
>>43028411
XPs' end of life was recent which is why it's not welcome here
>>
>>43028411
I like the possible inclusion of early OSX.
The rarity of usage seems more important than a strict interpretation of dates.
>>
>>43028418
>there are a couple arcade-oriented distros around
GroovyMAME or something similar is the one I've heard of.

As it stands now, my experience with linux is a few months of extremely casual use of Mint when Windows kept getting stuck in a restart loop.
>>
>>43028371
For SVGA modes, there is no standardization for the memory and register mapping, which is why all cards need their own special drivers to run Windows in modes above 640x480x16. The VESA standard defined SVGA modes as 640x480x256, 800x600, 1024x768, and 1280x1024, but there was (as I said) no standard for the low-level hardware implementation of them.

Some SVGA cards also do things like fudge 1024x768 via interlacing; these modes cannot be used with LCD monitors.
>>
>>43028461
what do you think you'll use for controllers?

i've just been using an xbox controller (s)
plug/play support for it in linux, including the rumble motors
>>
>>43028505
Since VESA 2.0, all video cards can also remap their RAM into extended memory, usually some extremely high place in the CPU address space to avoid conflicting with applications. For example, in the Windows 9x era, cards would put their VRAM at like 1FFFFF (335MB) although some motherboards didn't have all 32 address lines connected so it didn't always work (there was usually a utility program to map the memory down lower if that happened)
>>
In real mode DOS programming, the VGA buffer is at A000:0000 and only 64k can be accessed at a time so hi-res modes use bank switching. When doing protected mode programming, you would use the GDT to swap RAM in and out of extended memory to write to the A000 buffer since it can't be directly accessed in pmode. This is how Windoze uses 640x480x16 and the other lower video modes. SVGA modes on the other hand have linear VRAM placed somewhere in XMS memory so no banking or other trickery.

Some SVGA cards actually don't map anything into A000/B800, they just intercept all read/write operations there and redirect them to the real video RAM.
>>
>>43028558
Likely look into various USB adapters for using actual controllers; I've already got one for the Classic Control Pro that works nicely. I'm sure I could find a way to get it working under linux.

Not sure if linux has support for SCP and the like for DS3 usage though.

A arcade stick would be a really neat idea as well.
>>
>>43028770
don't know what scp is (in this context), but the dualshock 3 is well supported (also plug/play if connected via usb)
>>
>>43028798
Driver package need to get it working properly with Windows.
USB is alright, but I'd really like the benefit from the bluetooth capability of the controller to just relax in bed without having to worry about a 8+ foot long USB cable.
>>
>>43022132
Oh Jesus fuck no, I remember this brony tripfag from /vr/. I'd hoped he died of AIDS by now.
>>
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>>43028918
>>
>>43028837
looks like ds3 is supported by bluez natively (bluez being the main bluetooth system in linux), just need a seperate tool to do the pairing part (like how you need to plug a controller in to a new ps3 so it recognizes it)
>>
>>43028987
Makes sense. I'm sure I'll be able to figure it all out once I actually get around to setting everything up.
>>
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;)
>>
>>43018804
dat black level.
>>
>Can't install Opera or Firefox because of IE
>Windows Update page takes forever to load
>FTP isn't even working
I friggin' hate Virtualbox.
>>
>>43029244
Forgot pic
>>
>>43029244

>not going to oldapps.com or just building an ISO full of shit to start you out
>>
>>43029388
I just went to oldapps.com and it gave me shit. Had to turn down the privacy slider in Internet Options.
>>
>>43029259
In Win2k you need an update to be able to update through Windows Update
Yeah, it's retarded
>>
>>43028505
Most modern cards also use memory-mapped registers instead of port I/O (slow and also antiquated)
>>
>>43029405

weird, I can usually get IE to cooperate enough.

Have you tried the Mozilla FTP?

https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/
>>
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>>43027002
>>43027465
Cool, I didn't know you could draw furry porn on an Amiga
>>
This question may be out of place but you guys probably have experience with this kind of thing:
I have a powerbook g3 I got at a garage sale with what I'm guessing is a fucked NVRAM battery, these things are rare and expensive, so would I be able to just tear apart the battery and replace the cells with standard rechargeable coin cells?
>>
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>>43029244
>>43029259
You could try running Windows 2000 natively on modern hardware with kernel extensions. There's this Japanese guy who spends his free time porting DLL dependencies in Windows XP to Windows 2000.

http://w2k.flxsrv.org/
http://blog.livedoor.jp/blackwingcat/
>>
>>43029688
It's the best system for artistic things!

Within the bounds of this thread anyway.
>>
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SPINNANCUBES for your soul.
>>
>>43029838
>not using DX 7.0a SDK
>>
>>43029733
Fugg, forgot pic
>>
You probably could. It's at least worth a try.
>>
>>43030017

As long as your voltage spec matches, a battery's a battery.
>>
>>43030179
Cheers, I'll try.
>>
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have you played metal slug today, /g/?
>>
>>43027858

>being this buthurt at someone else's computer
>>
>>43027814
>>43027879

lel m8 I left it on from a risk game see >>42997510

Why are you so upset?
Thread replies: 311
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