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Retailers Complain About Collapsing Marvel...
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>“We’re seeing the worst falloff of Marvel and DC sales in the store’s 38-year history.

>Both companies are losing established readers who no longer feel that the company’s output reflects the sort of comics they enjoy. Stories are lackluster, unfocused, and excessively long as companies think in terms of collected editions, not individual issuees. The tone is mostly dark and uninviting.

So one of my Facebook normie friends sent this to me and provoked a little discussion about it. I'm bringing this here because I haven't be /co/ in years, so I'm not really on the up and up about this stuff. My friend and I assumed that both companies might be waning due to throwing all their attention and care into movies, or that maybe the numbers were due to the widespread acceptance of digital comics. Another reason is that the established audience just doesn't care any more, or at least not as much as they used to. Ten years ago I was buying tons of stuff, but I have other stuff to spend money on now, and comics haven't held my interest in a long time. The last comic movie I saw was Guardians, I think.

What do you think, /co/? Or rather, what do you know?
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>>79785456
oops, I forgot the link

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/01/27/retailers-complain-about-collapsing-marvel-and-dc-sales/
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Imagine that, tumblr teens don't spend money on comics. Even I dropped stacks on stuff I liked every once I a while, because I knew shit would die off if fans didn't support it.

Marvel shouldn't care anyway, they have their movies making a dick ton more than comics ever did
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>>79785456
Good

Comics should die so that I can be free
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I think it's old clickbait that we've discussed to hell and back already and you should have known it anyway just by viewing comic sales charts on a monthly basis.

The market is fucked and we just have to ride out the storm to see what rises when it finally collapses. It won't take longer than another couple of decades.
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>>79785456
Welcome to last December.
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>>79785956
didn't comics just about die in the 90s, though? At least the early to mid 00s were good.
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>>79785456
It's the relaunches. Convergence/DCYou and Secret Wars?All New All Different killed the interest for a noticeable number of readers

Star Wars is the thing keeping Marvel above DC because it didn't go on a 9 month break

These new readers Marvel and DC want don't give a shit about canon or crossovers. They just want to read the few comics they do without being told that it's over, but a new #1 is coming
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>>79786088
this and the fact the companies to various degrees just want to shit on established fanbases.

>character has established fanbase
>reboot character into something totally different to the point where they're the same character in name only
>when fans tell the companies they preferred the original established version, said companies blow em off and tell em this is how the character will be going into the future
>said fans stop buying and go away
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Drop the price. Comics shouldn't be $4 and $5 for every first issue. And Bendis justifying this by saying "You're not admiring the art enough" is bullshit.
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>>79786276
Is it actually possible for them to run through all potential buyers/audiences before new ones come along?
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>>79786322
The price only matters as a barrier to entry. Sales on individual titles don't change when they raise them, so it doesn't explain why fans have stopped buying things.

This is closest to an explanation >>79786088. No point in subscribing anymore when everything is a stealth mini anyway.
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>>79786331
>>79786276
Marvel has this idea that these new fans will be the most loyal. But the thing is, most of these new fans are just hop ons. They are the type of fans that obsess over a franchise really hard for the current popularity wave, then get bored of it when the newest franchise dangles its keys. I mean, look at this resurgence of the Star Wars fans that is mainly "Lol, the Skywalkers are so whiny and Leia is so perfect, and Po and Finn are so gay." and yet all the original staples of Star Wars like Boba Fett are just gone now.
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>>79786382
funniest shit is DC and Marvel both offer the shittiest overpriced collected editions imaginable.

On the flip side you have the likes of IDW and Darkhorse actually putting out nicely done collections
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>>79786276
And the Nu52 flashbacks are now back.
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>>79786382
True. These relaunches really hurt newcomers. I mean, when I tell people to read "Volume 1" of something, they think it's the Trade "Volume 1". Imagine people trying to get into Ms. Marvel and Spider-Gwen realizing that the Number 1 isn't really the start of things.
I remember one party where a girl was telling me about how she loved "Hawkeye: My life as a Weapon" (Her words), and when I mentioned Kate Bishop, she got confused, and it turned out she only read the first issue. Again, this shit goes over people's heads.
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>>79786453
DC is still cheaper than Marvel
Marvel 12 issues trades = $35
DC 12 issues = $20
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>>79786579
DC tends to go stupid when it comes to hardback books

Prime example the Blackest Night Collections
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>>79786322
They should really go back to cheap low quality paper for single issues. The price hike isn't because of what the creators are being paid, it's the material cost
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I think a number of factors.
1) Reboots confuse the new fans and annoy the old ones.
2) Prices.
3) Comics are really hard to get into. A lot of the time, developments happen and fans don't find out for years. (I still see people go "Wait, Cassie Lang is alive again?!)
4) Fans only read what's "Important" and cause a lot of better books to fall by the wayside.
5) Too many comic writers are not writing stories, they're writing fluff for issues on end.
6) There really is no sense of direction in stories anymore.
7) New comic fans really don't get comics. Tumblr freaked out when Deodato took over Invincible Iron Man and they started screaming "WHY AREN'T THEY ALL SO CUTE ANYMORE?!"
8) It's a fad to a lot of current fans. Some writer goes "Look how cutsie Squirrle Girl is!" and then she gets hoards following that book.
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>>79786794
>Cassie Lang is alive again

what
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>>79786734
>The price hike isn't because of what the creators are being paid, it's the material cost
do you have a source for that? I'd always heard the price of paper is negligible when it comes to printing

DC's floppies are typically cheaper than Marvel's but they have nicer paper
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>>79786856
Not sure if troll, but yeah, she was brought back by a Axis flipped Dr. Doom during Avengers World, and is currently back in Ant-Man.
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>>79786794
>Comics are really hard to get into.
Marvel and DC are hard to get into, not "comics".
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>>79785456
Good. They deserve it. I hate to say it. But you gotta vote with your dollars. DC failed to have competent editorial direction.

Marvel has an editorial direction that decided they hate all the people who read their comics before the Avengers movie came out.

So good. Let it burn.
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>>79786990
No, it's definately comics in general. I mean, look how many non-big two comics get all metaphysical and weird very quickly.
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>>79786794
this is fucknig true
also the retarded crossover cancer every couple years

>>79786990
the thread is mainly bout why DC and Marvel are sucking so much right now. The MU is in worse state than than the DCU imo
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>>79785871
I know shocking isn't it
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This could mean a renaissance if they industries tried to get their acts together. Imagine if they actually changed the settings of the DC and Marvel U's.
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>>79786856
well killing her off was one of the reasons i dropped a bunch of books so glad she's alive at least
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>>79787068
except they won't both companies see comics as just idea factories for the movies & tv. As awesome as it is to have great comic book movies, I think it's hurt actual comic books more and I kinda wish the movies had never happened
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The whole reason why sales have been tanking is because noone wants to wait a month and spend 5 bucks for a 4 minute read. Why spend money when you can read free webcomic on your phone that updates at least weekly? The comic industry is like blockbuster in which new technology comes out, they dont take advantage of it and become a decrepit dinosaur that refusesor is too inept to adapt and change.
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Let it buuurrrrrrrrrrrrrn

> The comics industry is a shitty swamp filled with decades of shitty stories told by shitty people hired by shitty companies who have always acted as if they were in a contest to see who could be the most shitty to their employees. I can tell you the plot of each Secret War – even the terrible one Bendis did in 2005. It’s not a “marketable” skill but it’s my niche, it’d be silly to quit. Why start now, though?
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>>79787033
>also the retarded crossover cancer every couple years
Or the people who think those events are mandatory reading. I mean, there's that one poster who went "I'm trying to get into comics, and I read Civil War and Original Sin, I don't think I like them"
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>>79787068

Yeah but they would really need to shake shit up in a way that sticks and reduce the amount of books to like half or less, and the will never do that.
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>>79786076

Stan Lee had seen the market crash twice BEFORE creating the Fantastic Four
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The pissing off readers to garner interest thing? You know that thing I said would backfire and backfire huge? There ou go.

New #1 all of the time with new status quo for established characters that have established readers is retarded. You do that shit with walk ons and nobodies you want to build up. Not the heroes and heroines that bring the readers.

Costs are too high. This is a niche luxury product that only sells because it's comfort food for degenerate hobbiests. It does not sell to tumblr type people.

If they want to pull them in then they create team books where the new characters interact with well known established characters, and build them up there. Then create one shots and super mini's to gauge interest.
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>>79787163
Which is what I'm wondering what would happen if the Superhero bubble bursts. Would Marvel Studios start diverting their efforts away from heroes and storytell other types of stories within the MCU?
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>>79787032
>Retailers Complain About Collapsing Marvel And DC Sales
You know what isn't collapsing? Sales of non-Marvel and non-DC comics.
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>>79786910
The creator pay rates haven't increased much the past 20-30 years or so, but I don't think you can blame it on paper costs. Most likely they are just raising the prices to cover for the fact that fewer issues are being sold in the long run.
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>>79787211
crossovers used to be a fun thing that only happened occasionally and the big company wide crossovers were a rarity but fun (DC's INVASION)
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>>79787267
When your book is selling less than 10k with a #1 there's not much room for it to collapse.
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>>79787254
>Would Marvel Studios start diverting their efforts away from heroes and storytell other types of stories within the MCU?

The MU has that whole kree/skrull/shiar/badoon/spaceknights space opera thing you can milk stories from, even leaving the tradition "superhero" concept out.
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>>79787211
>Or the people who think those events are mandatory reading

How can some people not think so when its happening so often tho?
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>>79786276
KILL MILES MORALES... BRING BACK ULTIMATE PETER
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>>79787364
no one gives a shit about that though

(meaning not enough people to make money)
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I think the other huge problem is that all the goals of characters have been kinda reached. Peter Parker has been married, now he has multiple girlfriends, was part of the Fantastic Four, Avengers and even taught the X-Men. He even is Tony Stark now. He pretty much is a SHIELD agent now fighting one of the most uninteresting opponents yet.
In fact, almost every character who is destined to become an Avenger is one now. Ms. Marvel is one after 2 years of existing. Punisher is like the last big character who will probably become an Avenger.
In fact, wasn't there supposed to be a new Punisher book coming out? A Gamora book? A new Blade book? Did they all just conveniently get forgotten?

Nobody at Marvel knows what to do anymore, and they are just burning the fuel they have left. Vision is the only really inspired book right now because it actually has a tone, story, and is doing something radically different than most things Marvel, it's using a horror sci-fi concept that is criticizing suburban life. Compare that to how many books are going "DINOSAURS WITH GUNS IS SO AWESOME" or "Look at these two characters! Now they're in love! (Falcon and Female Thor, Kate Bishop and America Chavez)." It goes to show who is actually a good writer and who is just fanfiction writers.
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>>79787456
I have no problem with a new character being brought in to take up a heroes mantle or being added to the cast (Miles, Baz, Batwing) but shit like Wally West here is taking it way to far.
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>>79787583
This one was intentional though. Barryfags in editorial trying to bury Wally's success and make people stop bringing him up in conventions, but also doing it in a way that guaranteed he wouldn't be able to take over for Barry anytime soon.

I think they've given in and realized they were wrong though. Or at least they're realizing that money is good and pissing off Wally fans by keeping his run out of print was retarded.
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And now, for my theory about Marvel/DC and the SJWs. Obviously, artists are more liberal than average person by nature (if they weren't, they'd get a real job), and that might be why people at Marvel are so in-sync the PC crowd. But I have another theory. I hope that I managed to show that in recent years, Marvel went away from caring for the stories they publish – what with constant events, shake-ups and reboots. I thinks that's partially why so many talented writers have left in recent years – Ed Brubaker, who's killing it in Image, as does Rick Remender. Brian K. Vaughan used to write for them a few years ago, but not anymore. Neither does J. Michael Straczynski. Meanwhile, Bendis doesn't seem to care for anything other than his scalp wax money and is more than happy to write his characters running around in circles until he gets a chance to write another event, Dan Slott got to write his softcore fetish porn in Superior Spider-Man and actually gets paid for his Doctor Who fanfic he calls "Silver Surfer", so he's happy as well, and it seems to me like Mark Waid is just happy that he can be a part of something and can bitch about DC about something that happened ten years ago. And Warren Ellis doesn't care as long as he gets to write a few issues about some third-stringer. And I suspect that Marvel wants it that way. After getting rid of all but few established names that might want to do things their way, and might stand up to the editors in the name of "artistic integrity", "caring for the actual fans" and bullshit like that, they can hire no-names, has-beens and never-weres that'll do what they're told for half the money or less (and this is why Marvel is plagued with shitty webcomic artists nowadays). But to make sure they'll want to work for them, Marvel must put up a friendly exterior. It's basically cult-like breeding tactics, but seeing as how all those dumbasses are SJWs anyway, it's pretty apparent that they wouldn't catch on to it.
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>>79787543

You know things being so mellow and uninteresting just means another company wide crossover is near. Why make better stories when you can have marketing gimmicks?
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>>79787737
This doesn't really fit along with how Marvel has been luring new talent from DC though
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>>79786088
>All New
>All Different
How did this make any sense? If you make all your comics about minorities, literally minorities, why would you expect majorities to buy them?
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>>79785456
I'm sorry, but I don't believe it. I believe that the sales are bad, especially for DC. But the worst falloff in the store's 38 year history? That store must be an outlier or else it had an amazing time in the '90s.
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>>79787737
But Big Two companies don't need star writers to succeed. Remember the X-Men had one of their boom sales periods with Scott Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza as the writers (Nicieza much > Lobdell but neither are stars).

I think the strategy with star writers - milk them dry and then let them go and do their own shit once they've burned out on superheroes - is a pretty good strategy. Marvel does seem to have a lack of star talent at the moment but it's not the talent that drives sales, it's the characters and their soap opera antics.

If there's a problem now it's that no one seems to care much about what happens to a lot of these characters.
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>>79786794
>6) There really is no sense of direction in stories anymore.
That's not true. There's TOO MUCH direction. All the writers want to write 30-issue arcs, not self-contained stories.
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>>79786276
>this and the fact the companies to various degrees just want to shit on established fanbases

The established fanbase consists largely of fifty yeard old white dudes on their third coronary. The problem is that the old fans throw a shitfit every single fucking time Marvel/DC does anything to appeal to other possible audiences
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>>79787543
>think the other huge problem is that all the goals of characters have been kinda reached.
That's kind of the problem with all these major characters that have been around for decades, their character arcs and circumstances become cyclical
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all of the earth 616 universe needs to go imo
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>>79788144
This is one reason no comic will ever again be as popular as X-Men in the '80s and '90s. Claremont just kept adding new character after new character, and it felt like a comic that was for you, not for your parents.

Creators now would never waste their best character ideas on Big Two comics but their own comics tend to be heavier on concept than character (Saga is an exception, and it's why Vaughan is probably the biggest writing star of today). Everybody else just runs on the past.
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>>79788275
>Saga is an exception, and it's why Vaughan is probably the biggest writing star of today

saga is average
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>>79788513
I'm not even talking about it's quality, just that people who like it get caught up in the characters and their relationships and arguing about what's going to happen to them. That's classic soap-opera comic appeal which a lot of comics (mainstream and indie) lack.
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>>79788582

>the writers are pressured to write action shit instead of developing chars and whenever they do want to develop them its cringy as fuck

basically this comes down to subpar writers in marvel
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>>79788720
I actually suspect it's subpar editors.

Stephen Wacker, an asshole online, seemed to be a first-class editor who knew how to revive interest in books like Spidey and Daredevil. He's gone now and so are a lot of his people.

Sana Amanat seems like the kind of editor who talks to the media a lot but has only one book that clicked, Ms. Marvel - and that was Wacker's idea.

DC's editorial staff has been a complete mess except for Mark Doyle taking over the Batman books. These books are really made by editors (back in the '50s it didn't matter who the writer was, the editors created the books) and I think they don't have enough crazy-ass visionary editors.
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>>79785456
>Retailers Complain About Collapsing Marvel And DC Sales

That's also because digital sales, which retailers don't see anything of.


>>79787789
Because the majorities in the USA will be Hispanics, and the current trendy thing (outside comics) is for white males to be gay, and white females to get fucked by black males.
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>>79787033
>crossover cancer every couple years

I guess you haven't seen modern Marvel running two or three event comics each year.
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>>79788109
The established fanbase SPENDS THEIR MONEY.

The new casuals are well, casuals. They buy until their short attention spans lead them somewhere else.
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>>79785921
...

Are you being serious? Because I think that myself and I'm serious.
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>>79787068
>Imagine if they actually changed the settings of the DC and Marvel U's.

If we've learned something from New Universal, 2099, Ultimate, it's that this only creates a very limited spark of interest before people just want to go back to the old status quo.
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>>79789643
Yes
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>>79789690
>tfw you just want all comics to be done before you die so you don't miss anything
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>>79786322
All comics should be $1. This would be a first step in fixing the market.
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>>79786446
>and yet all the original staples of Star Wars like Boba Fett are just gone now.

I don't understand what you're trying to say, Boba Fett has been gone since Episode III except for a few comics and cameos.
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>>79785456
Since probably the 70's there has been a doom and gloom contingency in comics.

Every several years or so there are chicken little's who cry about how "Comics are dying and there going to be dead in a few years".

It happened when comics went from 10 to 12 cents in the 1960's to a whopping 50 to 60 cents in the 70's and 80's due to increased material costs.

It happened when the DC Implosion of 78'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Implosion

>Since the early 1970s, DC had seen its dominance of the market overtaken by Marvel Comics, partly because Marvel had significantly increased the number of titles it published (both original material and reprint books). In large part, the DC Explosion was a plan to overtake Marvel at its own game.

>DC instead experienced ongoing poor sales in winter 1977. This has been attributed in part to the North American blizzards in 1977 and 1978, which both disrupted distribution and curtailed consumer purchases.[4] Furthermore, the effects of ongoing economic inflation, recession, and increased paper and printing costs cut into the profitability of the entire comic book industry, coupled with steadily decreasing numbers of readers. In response, company executives ordered that titles with marginal sales and several new series still in development be cancelled.[4][5] During these meetings, it was decided that DC's long-running flagship title Detective Comics was to be terminated with #480, until the decision was overturned following strenuous arguments on behalf of saving the title within the DC office, and Detective was instead merged with the better-selling Batman Family.[6]

>On June 22, 1978 DC Comics announced staff layoffs, and the cancellation of approximately 40% of its line.
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>>79787267

Apart from Saga and the Walking Dead, indie sells like shit just like always. The only reason Image has been consistently upping their sales for the past few years is TWD being popular as fuck as a TV show and attracting people to the comics.
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ONE RING TO RULE THEM ALL syndrome.

Marvel/DC is only interested in making THE next big thing that justifies an entire corporate entity on it's own. Where all profit for the whole company comes from. If it can't float the whole operation on it's own, it's trash.

This is a decades old mentality just now starting to bite them. The old standbys stagnated to the point no amount of reboots or re-imaginings can dribble out yet another Superman/Batman/Spiderman/Whatever story without doing what has already been done to death with those characters.

They can't let go cause they need THE ONE. They can't let out a diverse set of titles aimed at each being profitable in their own right to add up to a whole. Each aimed at a different kind of fan to draw in people of all tastes. Thus establishing a new loyal base of consumers.

They're trying to run comic books like you would a Blockbuster Film and it just doesn't work.
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>>79789944

But what could fix this?

Refocusing the senior IP into more more high concept stuff, with wide supporting cast and char driven storylines?

Better deals with original creator's stuff inside the mainstream comic universes and flexibility/freedom to opt out of company crossovers?
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>>79785456
I've heard a theory that comics are already dead. They died back in the 90's. When Marvel declared bankruptcy. They've never recovered and reached the sales peaks of the pre-comics speculators bubble.

I forget which recent issue of the Walking Dead it was that topped a million copies sold but it was the first to do so since in the industry since an issue of Witchblade almost a decade earlier.

>Since 1997, comic book sales have fallen to a fraction of early-1990s levels, with print runs of many popular titles down as much as 90% from their peaks. Currently, most of the hype generated around the major companies' comics involves changes to the characters, well-known creators writing or illustrating a title, and buzz surrounding an adaptation to another medium such as film or television.
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>>79790121
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>>79790121
I would not be surprised at all if print comics become a boutique thing (like vinyls) while the bulk of the content is digital, in the next 2-3 years.
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Why do you keep posting the same 'article' from 3 weeks ago. Are you autistic?
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>>79789643
>>79789690

Why don't you guys just read manga, then?
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>>79789944
>Marvel/DC is only interested in making THE next big thing that justifies an entire corporate entity on it's own. Where all profit for the whole company comes from. If it can't float the whole operation on it's own, it's trash.

This is fundamentally wrong. The DC/Marvel comics side exists largely just to cultivate copyright to all their intellectual properties now, while the real money is merch and licensing and movies. Comics are just used to renew to copyright so it doesn't fall by accident to public domain.

>They can't let out a diverse set of titles aimed at each being profitable in their own right to add up to a whole.

This is wrong. They've tried to make books for these new niches but the trouble is, they're young millennials who prefer buying digital so the print market which is the basis for these new diverse and different books can't support them the way they do for older shit.


>They're trying to run comic books like you would a Blockbuster Film and it just doesn't work.

But it has worked. That approach sold a shit ton of comics a decade ago when Warren Ellis and Mark Millar started doing the big, loud, action packed widescreen approach to comics and kinda revitalized the indy market when it became a popular style. What Marvel's been trying to turn comics into TV shows via their constant relaunches and saying they're meant to be perceived as "seasons"
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>>79790256
It'll never go that way. Single issues maybe, but trades and OGNs will remain.
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>>79790342
>But it has worked.

Up to a certain point though
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>>79786322
This is definitely a factor for me. I've stopped pulling Marvel all together because their issues are too god damn expensive. Then again their trades are too expensive too.
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>>79790112
I'd say look at what makes manga work so well. Diverse titles (ranging from what we would call capeshit to more mundane stories, slice of life, drama, horror, and more) that have a definitive beginning and end. When a series is done, it's done. People need diverse entertainment to keep their mind alive and hungry. They'll claim they want more of the same to the fucking grave, but the proof is in their wallets.

Granted, I hear manga sales are not as good as they used to be in Japan either. Not on the verge of collapse like US comics, but still not the shining star it used to be.

The real issue could be far graver than anyone suspects; Societal Fatigue. No one cares anymore. The government wants to take your rights. Little Timmy is raised with the idea that having fun is not 'adult' and will automatically look away from things like comics because he's an 'adult'. Worst of all, the generation that WAS interested in comics as kids/teens hit adulthood only to find the world doesn't want them. No entry level positions exist(or are all filled with retirees trying to pad their lifestyle beyond their social security check and retirement checks), and higher education has become largely worthless in opening up prospects either by virtue of costs outweighing the use of degrees and a job market that doesn't want college grads regardless.

But what do I know?
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>>79790368

Everything goes out of style eventually, but it still works for big titles. Look at Snyder's Batman run, one giant blockbuster arc after another and it's still selling above 100K, almost 50 issues after the relaunch.
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>>79790413
Manga already had its implosion in the US. All the really niche shit didn't sell and now people just read popular shit like Attack the Titan.
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>>79786322
This. I visit /co/ occasionally because I want to get into comics, I have for a very long time. The problem is $15 a comic is way too much fucking money. When I finally do bite the bullet and buy it, Im too afraid to breeze through it since I want to get my money's worth. But all that does is slow my reading down, which isn't good seeing as there are hundreds of comics I have to read.

Dropping the price would not only make me actually buy comics, but read them faster so I can get the next issues
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>>79787226
when?

CCA and what else?
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>>79790474

I just wait and buy trades and books for that same price.
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>>79790413
I dunno being an immature manchild seems pretty easy nowadays. I mean look at all this nerd and nostalgia shit, people are making careers or trying to off Neet behavior. The issue I think is more comics and Manga are just outmoded. If you like comics, they're for you but there are several other media that get you gratified quicker and in bigger dosages and just as easy if not easier to get than comics.
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>>79790342
I could see this.

The focus is on making movies, and comic books just serve as a fishing ground for what to make in to a movie next. It's a low budget wall to throw ideas at till you get something unique enough and fun enough to turn in to a blockbuster for billions.

Though I can't help feel this behavior isn't sustainable either.

>>79790451
I said IN JAPAN.

The US fell victim to manga's own success. It's easier to simply go online and read a manga translated FAITHFULLY only a day after it was release in Japan, and the only people passionate enough to bother buying paper are too passionate to wait months for a halfassed hacked up translation that changes both the characters and the plot.

Honestly, I wouldn't be shocked if american comics are suffering similarly. Though this time losing their own sales to indies that publish online. Also known widely as WEB COMICS.
>>
>>79790515
>It's easier to simply go online and read a manga translated FAITHFULLY only a day after it was release in Japan, and the only people passionate enough to bother buying paper are too passionate to wait months for a halfassed hacked up translation that changes both the characters and the plot.
Are there really any manga translations that do this? I've heard of inaccurate dubs, but never inaccurate officially-licensed-manga-releases. Hell, in my experience I'm more likely to be annoyed by a scanlation for poor sentence structure or just getting character names wrong. (remember GATZU?)
>>
>>79790515
If someone ever started a web equivalent of a publishing house the pushed out QUALITY web comics rather than the current crop of slop we have I could definitely see web comics making a breakout success. The current problem with web comics is that there's no quality control.
>>
>>79790330
Honestly because the Japanese can't into muscular or bearded man.
>>
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>>79790330

Because im not a pedophile
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>>79785456
>listening to comic shops
>businesses that should've been extinct years ago

They're just salty people are tradewaiting and buying digital comics.

Marvel is mostly to blame. Between tying things into their movies and forcing progressive characters, they ditched hardcore comic readers. DC is just a victim of circumstance.
>>
>>79790686
I can't imagine being so sensitive to social constructs that I would bury the pedophilic urges so deep that I convinced myself they aren't there.
I kind of feel bad for you.
>>
>>79789265
There are some retailer credits involved if you linked their shop on Comixology, or at least there was pre-Amazon. Maybe it stopped.
>>
>>79790598
I couldn't really quote specific examples. I was more throwing a wide variety of reasons why it flopped, but phrasing CAN change how a character/story is perceived even if the art itself is untouched. I don't think it was ever a huge issue though.

More than anything is the speed.. AND PRICE. In Japan, Manga are sold for peanuts. In the US you could buy a fucking video game for the cost of 10 minutes worth of catching up on your favorite manga.

I had actually forgotten about the price till just now. My fucking god. They have no right charging so much more than the source when all they have to do is translate the fucking thing. I seem to remember many people were willing to put up with the pace based on simply supporting the industry to get more manga, but the price was unfair.

>>79790637
Your mentality is exactly the wrong approach and why you don't understand why web comics are successful.

Looking for the 'breakout success'? Start a publishing house? Comics are inherently an artistic endeavor, and the stifling and SPEED OF MUD arena of corporate ventures suffocate creation. A web comic doesn't have to be successful enough to run an entire company. It only needs to support the people responsible for creating it.

This means the creators have freedom and don't get constantly ass fucked. A more diverse set of stories with no bullshit attached? That's attractive. In the end, you are at the mercy of THE CONSUMER. Not at the mercy of how much money is in the market unused. The consumer is not obligated to barf money on anything, and the assumption they WILL is a mistaken corporate art house belief that kills projects.

There are also many very good web comics if you bother looking. Ones like Kill Six Billion Demons has some of the best art I've ever seen in any comic ever.
>>
Honestly, I havent bought a collected or paper copy in a long time unless its sketch covers.

I dont even buy digital all that often, unless its cheap or on sale... like I plan on getting all of the idw tmnt collected because they are on sale, and I buy Jem also, but I wait until the digital goes down to $1.99... the price I was comfortable paying for comics back in the 90's. $4-$5 a single issue is insane.
>>
>>79785456
>Retailers Complain About Collapsing Marvel And DC Sales

The direct Market made firmly sure that comics would be niche. So fuck them. I hope the whole industry collapses
>>
>>79790795
KSBD is only good because of the attention to detail that poopstack puts into the story. The art is a mess most of the time. I get what its going for, but its still a mess...

The worst part of KSBD is the terribad fans who rollplay along with each new page. "OOooOOoooOO Im Tha deamonqueen OOoOOoOOOOoooOOooOOo"
>>
>>79790820
>I hope the whole industry collapses
>I hope the hobby that I love stops being the hobby I love and goes away.

Do you listen to yourself speak, or do you just type random edgy shit to get (you)s?
>>
>>79790853

yeah if the big 2 go down no one will ever be able to tell stories using words and pictures ever again
>>
>>79790853

>Edgy

I hope the industry collapses, the owners have to put up the "Out of business" sign and when they have finally shambled back home I want them to catch me fucking their wifes corpse Who am I kidding. They wont have a wife
>>
>>79790836
How is the art a mess? The lines are clean, the art s colorful while being well coordinated, what is happening is very clear panel to panel, and every character is unique and identifiable even at distance or low detail. It's also exceptionally detailed with incredibly scenery.

Please do try to explain yourself without the use of a buzz word. You honestly sound like a comic artist that's butthurt you can't/aren't allowed to draw better by your corporate overlards, otherwise.

>He's scared of roleplaying

This hurts you.. how?
>>
>>79788800
>subpar editors
This. People *really* don't understand how important an editor is to a story.
>>
>>79790853

>The hobby I love

It hasn't been the hobby I love for a long time. Marvels constant relaunching saw to that
>>
>>79790795
>why web comics are successful
They aren't, though
>>
>>79790908
Depends on which one you look at.

The majority roll in their own shit, but a decent number have artists that make their living entirely off the comic and then some. Of course, if you want to argue signal to noise ratio, I could declare every entertainment industry already collapsed with the same kind of logic.
>>
>>79790906

The amount of time I have seen the wrong "Your" used in comics is frustrating. For a start a professional writer shouldn't make that mistake in the first place and how many people have to proof read that shit? That's not even my biggest complaint. The speech bubble going to the wrong person is the fucking worst. I've seen them be color coded and still they fuck up
>>
>>79790795
Giving creators unlimited freedom is how we get garbage like the epilogue to Harry Potter. Obviously shitty editors suck, but no editors means we get garbage straight from the bowels of fanfiction.net. If KSBD is your shining example, that should prove just how bad web comics are. Even DC or Marvel's middling titles are better.
>>
>>79790330
Because everyone and their grandmother know manga is for lesser men.
>>
>>79785456
>The tone is mostly dark and uninviting.
Does this mean that Marvel/DC will listen and we'll get more stuff like Kamala/Howard/Gwenpool/Squirrel Girl?
>>
>>79790983
It's just like comics, not all of it is shonen shit. Horror manga creators beat out western comic writers by far.
>>
>>79791012

DC tried with fun stuff. It tanked. Marvel tried with fun stuff. It's tanking
>>
>>79786322

DC has the lowest prices and their $3.99 comics have more pages

The fact that Marvel sells so much makes me sick
>>
>>79790946
And not giving them freedom is how you get Marvel and DC. I can do this dance all day.

At least, when the work is in the hands of the creator, it will come to pass if it goes to shit. If the creator deems it necessary to run it in to the ground, something else will rise to the top. The publisher can always CUT TIES and publish someone else's work. As a corporate policy, running things in to the ground becomes inescapable and dooms the industry.

Publisher and Creator should not be the same entity under any circumstance.
>>
>>79789745

>All comics should be $1

I would literally buy 100 comics a month if they were. Right now I'm buying 12
>>
>>79789745
Actually that would fuck the market. No sane writer or artist would work for that kind of pay, leading quality to take a fuckin nosedive.
>>
>>79791062

They need freedom in a structured environment. Think a Chicken at a real free range farm
>>
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>>79786322
>>79789745
Agreed totally. As pointed out before, price and speed of release killed Manga in America. Charging too much for too little entertainment that releases too slowly.

It sounds counter intuitive to the typical moron who couldn't get a college degree in anything but business, but the lower price point potentially boosts impulse sales. You want impulse sales. You want that guy hooked on comics who saw a cool cover and always wanted to try, but then turns away realizing they're getting less than a dollar a page for their trouble.

Save big price points for collections and that nonsense. The comics on the rack week to week? Those should be cheap as shit.
>>
>>79791062
Your argument is that if webcomics are bad, that they'll simply vanish. Explain Questionable Content, Dumbing of Age, and Sinfest then.

When comics go bad, you at least get peace of mind that another creative team will take over and improve things.
>>
>The DC books generating the most excitement right now are Superman: Lois & Clark, Swamp Thing, and Justice League of America–three books that most closely evoke the tone and attitude of classic pre-Flashpoint DC (and two of those are written by veteran creators who worked on those books in the pre-Flashpoint days). These books look great and are excellent, entertaining reads
>30 Justice League of America7$3.99DC47,835
>68 Swamp Thing1$2.99DC29,048
>90 Superman Lois and Clark4$3.99DC23,766

Okay, justice league is doing fine numbers, but the other too are far from good. Either his store is out of the ordinary and full of nostalgiafags, or he himself is looking at this with rose coloured glasses.

>My Marvel readers are complaining about art this isn’t what they expect from a Marvel book. Cartoony art, manga-influenced art, quirky art… the concept of a house style is gone.

Okay, I'm tired of the current whacky art trend at marvel as well but this guy has shit taste. A variety of styles is a good thing.

Whenever I see these interviews with retailers I start thinking the industry should sink so that morons like this will leave
>>
>>79790659
>Japanese can't into muscular or bearded man.

But they can. There's even a porn subgenre focusing on gay bears.
>>
>>79791139
>The comics on the rack week to week? Those should be cheap as shit.

Trouble is, that's the bread and butter. Collections are still the extra income because plenty of people double dip.
>>
>>79785456
>What do you think, /co/?

1: Endless reboots of characters, universes kill off long time fans interests. No one wants their Captain Strongo replaced by a black metrosexual female misogany ending spaghetti-kin.
2: Prices are too damn high per issue. What fucktard is going to spend $4 an issue when they can read it online for free, or buy a collected edition a few months later for like $15-30 with a few hundred pages to it.
>>
>>79791198
>What fucktard is going to spend $4 an issue when they can read it online for free, or buy a collected edition a few months later for like $15-30 with a few hundred pages to it.
The fucktards that understand that the books are funded through their single issue sales?
>>
>>79791139
>>79789745
>>79786322

How many copies did that 25c issue of Invincible sell?
>>
Trades make each issue cost only about two dollars. Buying trades is the best way to vote with your wallet.
>>
>>79791233
The publishers don't see it that way.
>>
>>79790501
Immediately after WW2, the superheroes trend died HARD and gave way to horror, western, romance, crime, and war stuff, just to name a few examples. When the CCA happened, those genres died HARD again, only for superheroes to make a comeback.

What we really need is another superhero nosedive so other genres can rise back to the top.
>>
>>79791255
And that's decades away from being a reality. Superheroes are as important as ever right now.
>>
>>79791179
It's economics, anon. This is how selling in bulk works. You make little per unit, but if you sell enough units you still roll in fucking money.

>>79791210
No clue, but as a caution to my overall point, you don't want to make a product TOO cheap either. This has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with simple psychology. If a product is too cheap for what it is, people will avoid it assuming something is wrong.

As a shitty example; A pack of beer on sale is one thing. Ten packs of beer for $5 means something is wrong with that fucking beer.

I don't even drink. How much does beer usually cost?
>>
>>79791233

If DC is relaunching again I'm dropping floppies altogether. I've had enough. I used to think I had to buy floppies to support smaller books but if Marvel (and to a lesser extent DC) are just going to relaunch so often I have absolutely no incentive not to trade wait
>>
>>79786910
>DC's floppies are typically cheaper than Marvel's but they have nicer paper
What? Shouldn't that be the opposite? Cheaper means less substantial paper right?
>>
>>79791209

It doesn't work that way any more. There are more things to grab peoples attention these days, you've gotta be competitive. $4 for roughly 20 pages of probably filler material for whatever current plot is running that'll take a year to resolve, or to see Wonderella chastise the Patriarchon for his mansplaining isn't worth it for most people, not by a long shot.
>>
>>79790659

Muscular, bearded men are a synonym for being gay, anon. They're really into that Tom of Finland style of gayness. Which explains why in contrast, completely faggy looking pretty boys are hot according to woman.
>>
>>79791271
As soon as the superhero movie bubble bursts in the next decade or two, we'll start to see the superhero trend die off again. Shit, we're almost a whole decade of Marvel movies as it is and I felt the burnout years ago, right after Avengers.
>>
>>79791301
But it does work that way. Publishers don't keep books alive from trade sales.
>>
>>79791289

>Shouldn't that be the opposite

Yeah, it should.
>>
>>79791318

And they aren't going to be keeping them alive from floppies either since their sales are going down the shitter due to price and shenanigans to appeal to retards who don't even read comics in the first place.
>>
>>79786322
considering that Ultimate End 5 was both overpriced and had the laziest reusing of art in history, bendis has zero room to talk about artistic value
>>
>>79791322
DC kills better quality trees.
>>
>>79791312
>completely faggy looking pretty boys are hot according to Japanese women and weeaboos
ftfy

Worst taste.
>>
>>79791247
The publishers also don't really notice the additional copies of floppies you buy.

>>79791283
Just drop floppies, anon. If you really think companies pay attention to your buying trends, then it makes more sense to make the move as an individual towards buying trades, and hope that enough people will also send that message.
>>
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>>79791301
This is true too. There's such a thing as an over saturated market.

Lets step outside policy, quality, and price points for a second to consider an often ignored issue. Consumer mentality. Any given individual isn't a pinata that will burst with disposable income when hit hard enough. Often what happens is an individual is looking for a certain AMOUNT of entertainment rather than looking to spend a certain amount of money. Meaning once someone has found their fill of regular releases, they probably won't hunt actively for more. Maybe even outright ignore new promising ones cause they are satisfied. They will spend money till they hit satisfaction regardless of their own income(be it high or low).

In a world where entertainment flows like water, what does this mean?
>>
>>79791312
im a lighly muscular bearded man and have never had a homo make a pass at me
>>
>>79791378
It means that more people need to make posts with non-sequitur fanart of Kiva.
>>
>>79791395
Amen.
>>
>>79785456
This is what happens when you pander to sjws and deliberately TRY to piss off the only people that actually buy your products.
>>
Have we already had people suggesting anthology formatting and OGNs despite there being no market for either among US comic buyers? Also nonsense like suggesting putting comics in supermarkets would help? Just wanted to make sure that was out of the way.

Ultimately figure out a way to publish omnibuses at a reasonable rate and push the hell out of them so that normies buy them and know right away that they're getting a full story without any confusion.
>>
>>79787226
>>79790501
>>79791255
There was no "market crash" in the 40s or 50s. Stop trying to rewrite history.
>>
>>79791473
>Also nonsense like suggesting putting comics in supermarkets would help?

I have never failed to see comics in supermarkets. Every Shoprite, Walmart, Stop and Shop, A&P, Grand Union, Price Chopper, etc etc etc, has always had some comics in the magazine/book section.
>>
>>79791473

No you cut the amount of comics you make by half and make your best sellers bi weekly Just figure out a time frame for the artists. This will double comic sales instantly. Maybe DC can make books like Action comics and Tec into anthologies again. Just keep Supes and Bats as the main story and have rotating back ups. It didn't work monthly but bi weekly it might
>>
>>79791520
That'll sell even worse. Adding in a back up jacks the price up, so you're paying more and more TWICE a month.
>>
>>79791552

Well DC are clearly not massive Jews like Marvel because they didn't jack up the price when they added the Shazam back p to Justice League
>>
>>79791605

marvel is a movie ip company now that has an office that does comics to see what sticks

dc is still a comic book company, for now
>>
>>79791552
>Adding in a back up jacks the price up

As if they aren't jacking up the price anyway, irregardless of a back up. This mentality just means you pay more for less.
>>
Trade waiting on marvel titles doesn't work anymore. Buying a marvel trade still results in paying around 3-4 an issue. DC still at least makes their trades valuable to people willing to wait.

That said Marvel definitely out does DC on the mail subscription market. DC only offers the primo Batman and superman books for mail subscription only. Marvel offers all of their titles for mail subscription. Which is a huuuugeeeee discount. As long as you don't mind waiting 1-3 weeks from direct market release date.
>>
>>79785456
>Facebook normie friends
you are the normie, anon
>>
>hey guys what do you think about me? I buy things I don't care but you care about my care, right?

terrible thread, OP. kill yourself.
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>>79791176
I know about bara, I used to lurk in the It's time threads. I just meant in general, I didn't mean imply it's non-existent.
>>
>>79785456
All the blame should be on bad editorial in both companies. Drastically changing established books for fan services was what they wanted and now they see results.
DC fucked up huge by the company wide reboot of great titles with characters that had enormous depth. Changing characters no one asked to be changed and thinking that the whole thing would do what exactly? Now DC looks like a shittier version of Wildstorm, Bravo Jim, Bravo.
Marvel is so up their collective asses that they can't see straight. Carol Danvers in every book! Because we may have a movie franchise no one asked for. Carol is just as bad as the shit DC is doing putting Harley Quinn in every book.
Fuck you. You shit heads don't deserve money for the garbage you have been publishing. How about bringing back the grown ups who can run editorial and tell the fanfic posse to fuck off?

Marvel: no more Carol Danvers in everything. Stop pushing this bitch so hard. It's super desperate. Also trim the fat figuratively and literally by cutting shit books with zero substance like, lets see, Squirelgirl and every other Bendis book. Hey I like the guy but seriously fuck off with multiple books and garbage. Same with Slott and any other writer with more that two books on their hands. There is a reason that their books are subpar. I can go on, but baby steps.

DC: what can I say? You fucked up. You fucked up so hard. The list of fucked up is so long that it's a waste of time going over every shit decision. Simp,e solution is to have Superboy Prime donkey punch the DC reality back in to pre-52. You fucked up Superman, Lobo, and Wally West the Flash. You fuckers are dead to me.
Also a note to the retards who actually like the abortion that is the NU52: stop fooling yourselves with garbage. Not one book is excused from this. Great writer bad artist? Bad writer great artis? Great artist and writer? I don't give a fuck. Not one book in the whole catologe is worth the money that's being asked for it.
>>
>>79792117
>Changing characters no one asked to be changed and thinking that the whole thing would do what exactly?

Give DC the best sales it has had in several years. DC was in a fucking slump before the reboot.
>>
>>79792325
So why did it drastically fall apart to where it is now?
>>
>>79792333
It has fallen back to roughly the same point it was at before the reboot. They just have to find another way to boost sales for a while again.

Of course ideally you find a permanent boost but that won't actually happen.
>>
>>79792333

Because they put out a lot of niche books in attempt to capture a wider audience of new, female readers, mixed with the market being very hostile towards DC.
>>
I stopped buying their shit when all the heavy-handed "diversity" stuff became too much to bear.

Also, might want to try not putting ads all throughout a 20 page story.

The other companies don't do that. I buy them instead.
>>
>>79791088
You idiot, comic creators aren't paid by commission.
>>
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>>79790753
>I can't imagine being so sensitive to social constructs that I would bury the pedophilic urges so deep that I convinced myself they aren't there.

Are you serious?
>>
>>79787093

Were you a fan? Well bad news. She's been de-aged, de-powered, and it's basically never mentioned in the books that she was ever a Young Avenger. Not technically a retcon since it's time travel magic but close enough.
>>
>>79785921
>so it can be free


What? Why in the world would anyone take their intellectual properties and make them free? You need to go back to school and take Econ 101 over again.
>>
>>79792559

And you need to go back to school to learn how to read.

He said >so that I can be free

So that HE can be free, dumbass.
>>
>>79785756
>BleedingCool
The only /co/ approved site is ComicsAlliance
>>
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>>79792333
>>79792350
Reminder: Pic related.
>>79792117
Wow, you're an idiot. Not reading good books just because you don't like the universe is so stupid. And while Wally West really was fucked up, Lobo's ruining happened long after New 52, plus they're already bringing him back in line with old Lobo. And Superman? Changed somewhat, sure, but not enough that you can really complain "he's not the character I loved."

And then your complaints about marvel are ridiculous too. Carol isn't nearly the worst example of pushing, she's in her book, Civil War 2, and I think maybe a few appearances in Spider-Woman? Marvel's biggest problems are too much event/relaunch focus, and really shitty editorial.
>>
>>79792843
Judging by your reply I can tell you lack substance in your comics, or if you do it's mostly superficial.
If you can't see that the formula of rebooting has turned many books into garbage then I don't even know how to relate to you. And frankly I couldn't give a fuck.
You want to perpetuate shit taste the so be it, son. Go hog wild.
The point I made was that the over all quality of the books in each companies stables is shittier that what the were doing before breaking out the mustache wax and SJW mentality. Carol Danvers was an example of them pimping hard on a shit character, there are a fuck ton more like her, like Spiderwoman that you so eliquintly stated.
Over all quality if all the books is garbage teir. Maybe that's their aim and maybe you are their audience. Have fun wallowing in the filth.
>>
>>79792843
Superman wasn't supposed to be a navel gazing faggot like he's being portrayed. Many sorrys to the LGTB crowd, but Superman was someone to aspire to. This character whoever the fuck he is is not that superman.
Lobo was to be the essence of macho biker misogyny. This turd is a rip off of anime with even less depth. He was such a retarded reboot that the now try and bring him back to what he was before, but can't because the damage was too severe.

I do apologize and agree with the Wally bit you were mentioning. White flag. Although abundant of retards have a hard on for Barry, the fail to remember that the best Flash stories were with Wally. Barry is a flat humorless fossil who's only great character developing moment was when he sacrificed himself in Crisis. Then they fucked everyone and brought that shitface back and turned Wally into a black asshole just to make their choice of Barry as the Flash more justifiable. Yeah I know there's a tv show and a movie coming out that feature Barry, but it's fucked because they just gave Barry Wallys personality and that's why he's so likable in the TV show.

I may have been a tad testy about the whole thing, but the books are horrible and not worth anyone's hard earned dollar.

And, fuck a duck, I didn't even get into DCs biggest sin: the revamping and raping of John Constantine and the entire Vertigo line. Vertigo was where great writer were, now it's mediocre to sub mediocre.
>>
>>79791289
Cheaper as in less expensive

DC books are still 2.99-3.99, Marvel's pieces have crept up to 3.99-4.99 and occasionally higher
>>
>>79786446
Really what choice does the industry have? They can keep trying to eat their shit but that isn't going to grow the customer market. Making your current customers happy does nothing if they don't buy enough or bring in enough new blood.

If both options fail, only alternative is to reinvent how comics are delivered and let other media dictate how the properties evolve.
>>
>>79793552
Hey, I'm not saying the New 52 was a good idea, storytelling-wise, but it didn't ruin DC forever, either. They're still making good comics. I would've preferred for them to keep the old continuity, but history isn't the only thing that makes capeshit enjoyable. And fine, they may've fucked up Spes, they definitely fucked up Lobo and Wally and Constantine, so don't read about them. There's plenty of other good books. Unless you're a characterfag, in which case you can't try to shit on me for lacking substance.

Speaking of which, what's your favorite comic of all time? From any publisher.
>>
>>79790946
> Even DC or Marvel's middling titles are better.
I fucking wish that was true m8
>>
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>>79785456
Same song and dance we've heard a million times before. Here's a few reasons we've discussed:

>tumblr teens don't actually like comics
>using comics and IPs as a platform for politics and social justice in the modern era is too schismatic for the fanbase
>there are too many relaunches, #1's, and "all news" that are confusing new readers
>decades of history and legacy are being ignored, which alienates older fans
>sometimes people just want to see Hulk smash shit, they don't want some deep monologue about the treatment of Asians or women or Muslims or any one in today's society
>the art and writing have taken a steep drop in quality
>they're hiring too many webcomics and non-comic book fans thinking it will save the industry
>comic book shops are migrating toward becoming novelty or geek shops and make more revenue off non-comic book sales

etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.
>>
>>79793772
Original Comstantine run was amazing and well written. The art was up and down but it was great. Sandman was another amazing series.

AllStat super man was great as a limited series and was Batman the Long Halloween.

Hellboy and BPRD have never been.

But my all time favorite series is Bone by Jeff Smith from Cartoon Books tied with The Life and Times of Scrooge Mcduck.
>>
>>79793910
The auto correct has gone full retard on my phone. Words and grammar getting more fucked than the refugees in Europe.
>>
>>79793910
i meant to say that Hellboy and BPRD have never been bad and have been consistently great books.
>>
>>79793905
This guy gets it.
>>
>>79793663
>And, fuck a duck, I didn't even get into DCs biggest sin: the revamping and raping of John Constantine and the entire Vertigo line.

Let's just keep in mind, before Hellblazer was cancelled, it sold like seven thousand copies a month. And Vertigo had years ago withered to a mere husk operating largely thanks to the few remaining ongoing hit titles they had, with 99% of every entirely new IP being canceled within two years of being launched unless it was a mini, in which case it had a shelf life of maybe six months before everybody just forgot about it. People just stopped caring about new IPs from Vertigo and jerked off to the good old days of the mid 90s, no matter how hard Vertigo tried to get them to try out newer titles.
>>
Comics are not good these days, that's all. Whore is bad, ANAD Avengers is bad, Harley Quinn is awful, Batman is gay, was there ever a time when New 52 Flash was good? Don't get me started on Wonder Woman.

Trade orientation and, let's be absolutely 100% fair and objective, but forcing SJW crap also hurts stories.
>>
>>79793947

This whole Hell on Earth status quo really outstayed its welcome though. And Abe's book has been a meandering mess more often than not.
>>
>>79794000
It's fair to say that Mignola and company are pulling some "Lost" shit to figure out how exactly to tie up everything
>>
>>79787186
>The whole reason why sales have been tanking is because noone wants to wait a month and spend 5 bucks for a 4 minute read.
Pretty much this.
>>
>>79793982
Yep. This guy gets it too.
>>
>>79793756
>what choice does the industry have

like you said, reinvent the industry

restructure their business to focus their comic department on digital distribution. release them online as webcomics for free (with ads, and benefits for subscribing), only print as many physical books as people specifically order.
more cartoons, but instead of ongoing series people either take or leave, spend a few years doing animated adaptions of well received or otherwise significant storylines. So, say, wrap up Ultimate Spider-Man, then make a movie for Kraven's Last Hunt, a movie for Clone Saga, a movie for the JMS totem arc, a movie for Death of Jean deWolfe. for things that can't carry a movie by themself, flesh with related things. i.e, for a Death of Gwen Stacy movie incorporate the stuff from Spider-Man: Blue, including how the forgone conclusion colors all the happier times
>>
>>79793982
Strike 1: Comics are a medium, not a genre.
Strike 2: Manapul and Booch's run was real good for the first 3 volumes.
Strike 3: You're only mentioning A- or high-tier B-Listers. There's still a decent amount of solid comics coming out from the Big 2 (though a lot of them are slowly dying).
>>
>>79785456
>What do you think, /co/?
I think that in the year when a blockbuster comic book movie is out roughly every two month it is stupid to pay $4 for a ten minute read monthly. I really dont know how much a movie ticket in the US costs, but i am pretty sure that the bad sales has something to do with it.
>>
>>79793978
>People just stopped caring about new IPs from Vertigo and jerked off to the good old days of the mid 90s, no matter how hard Vertigo tried to get them to try out newer titles.
No big suprpise here. In the 90s people was into Vertigo for authors way more than for che characters/series.
>>
>>79794144

>Strike 2: Manapul and Booch's run was real good for the first 3 volumes.

It was boring as fuck.
>>
>>79793905
>using comics and IPs as a platform for politics and social justice
That's not a bad thing per se, it is just the companies think that "using comics and IPs as a platform for politics and social justice" means pretty much "suck the loudest of dicks out here". Characters whose only traits are being person of color/gay/woman, shit like that.Green arrow/Green lantern did things like that decades ago with about that much level of subtlety and quality, but at least that was something new back then.
>>
>>79791301
Don't you fucking sully the good name of Wonderella
>>
>>79794140
I have to wonder if the web comic ad model could really support the quality staff people have come to expect from DC/Marvel. Going pure online seems like something say Archie could do with their cheep freelance tactics.

The cartoon idea is basically what DC has been doing. It must be working since they keep doing it and have even moved beyond the PG crowd. Marvel dipped their toes in it and promptly gave up. They seemed to be focused instead on pushing titles that star the MCU characters.
>>
>>79794266
Nah man, shit was hell of flashy.
>>
>>79794266
Seconded.
>>
>>79794183
>I really dont know how much a movie ticket in the US costs
$10~15 depending on where you live. More in the cities.
>>
>>79794747
F2P Mobile games are the action figures of the '10s. The constant new characters and redesigned costumes used to be for creating toys based on, but nowadays, it's so they can slap more premium costumes and characters into games like Future Fight, Contest of Champions, and Avengers Alliance. Comics have always been an IP farm for TV, movies, games, toys, cards, etc. to use. Even if comics themselves are taking a hit in revenue in recent years, they're still valuable to publish for the Big 2, even at a loss (though obviously they don't want that), since comics make for a great IP farm.

The problem with a comic book market crash, which too many people seem to ignore, is that even if Marvel and DC are the pepetrators of it, it's the third-party publishers and indies that will get hit the hardest as a result. A market crash might cause some down-sizing at Marvel or DC, but it'd cause Valiant to go out of business (again) for example.
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>>79794144
>Strike 2: Manapul and Booch's run was real good for the first 3 volumes.
>Reading a Flash book after Flash: Rebirth #1
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>>79790330
>Why don't you guys just read manga, then?

That's not how it works. I'm already vested in comics, I can not allow them to continue after I die. They must die before I do.
>>
>>79791139
>The comics on the rack week to week? Those should be cheap as shit.

Exactly, comics should be perceived as entertainment, right now they are seen as luxury, niche. Get them out of the LCS, make them cheap as fuck, spread them out.
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>>79790474
I find I get the most re-read value out of Marvel's cosmic stuff. Anything with Galactus, Silver Surfer, Celestials, Eternity/Infinity, etc. The 80's Silver Surfer, Volume #2 I think? numbers 1-10 are fucking fantastic. There was a story time last year that turned me on to it, so good.

Big props to all the storytime thread bros out there.
>>
>>79794927
Plus fags only read manga
>>
>>79794266
But it looked pretty.
>>
>>79785456
My retired dad still buys comics and is hyped every time a movie comes around, marvels usually fall around his birthday in May.
I'm young working class and I don't buy shit and don't care for movies.
My point is I'm sure I'm not alone.
>>
>>79785456

I don't ever buy anything outside of collected volumes but don't really have any place close to buy individual issues either.

For a long time now, I've thought that the comics industry was facing a big problem because of the lack of comics geared towards young readers and the lack of access to those.

When I was a kid, there were tons of them and you could find them just about anywhere in stores. You'd start out with Harvey or Marvel's Star Comics or Gladstone and eventually move up to the older comics.

So they kept a steady stream of new readers along with holding onto the older ones. These days, there's really not that much for kids to get into comics and recent moves keep alienating the older fanbases.

Even those few comics that are theoretically for younger readers like Adventure Time seem geared more towards adult parts of those series' fanbases with their choice of material and writers. Plus I never see those comics in places that kids are likely to go to either.
>>
>>79790946
>Even DC or Marvel's middling titles are better

I think you're full of shit, but y'know what, I might just be ignorant. What DC or Marvel titles, currently running, are better than KSBD? I'll check 'em out!

>>79791173
"Different folks have different tastes from you." Done.

>>79791176
Yeah, but that shit's beyond fuck ugly. Like, they can *try* to into muscular bearded dudes, but what they're actually drawing are fuck ugly monsters with tiny heads and huge hands.

>>79791209
It's not my responsibility to keep a pants on head retarded industry afloat when they're mainly suffering due to their greed and inability to advertise or properly market their product. And piracy isn't immoral, despite how much it makes a lot of folks whine like bitches.

>>79791255
>war stuff

Oh yes because military wank sure has a better track record than capeshit for not getting boring and repetitive as all living fuck...

>>79791282
A sixpack usually costs like $8 around here, if it's any good. And while I agree with your example, at $5 for 10 packs, that blows all the way through the "Something must be wrong with this" category and right into the "I don't CARE if something is wrong with this! Fucking GIMME GIMME GIMME!" category.

Seriously, I want that much beer for that cheap. I don't care if it tastes like airag.

>>79791469
As much as I hate SJWs, the industry was already rotting from the inside before they tried that maneuver.

>>79791473
Why exactly would putting comics in supermarkets at the checkout line be "nonsense"? Archie sells pretty damn well from those racks, in my experience. And getting normies to even realize that comics are still a thing and there are still new stories being written is an uphill fucking battle as it stands.

Like, it just can't be any fucking dumber than the current LCS model. Every comic shop I've ever encountered was a barren fucking wasteland run by creepy fat assholes.
>>
>>79794916
>not accepting Best Flash Barry back into your life with open arms
get a load of this pleb
>>
>>79794885
That is a good point. Could you elaborate more on how the Big 2 could fuck over the others in the event of a crash? Its hard to picture IDW or Archie closing shop because DC can only put out 5 batman books now.
>>
>>79790121
>Hear news talk about Miles Morales
>They talk about it as if he's taking over mainline Pete
>Hear news years later talk about ASM 700 and Peter's death because it's 'big news'
>Never a follow up report talking about Peter getting his body back at the end of SSM.

It's true, all of it.
>>
>>79791048
Remember when DC tried the "keeping the line at 3.99!" and nobody cared?
>>
>>79795711
No shit nobody cared, anon, saying "We're going to keep doing the exact same thing." is usually a pretty weak position to promote yourself from.
>>
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>>79795711
It was 2.99. IIRC they got a lot of shit because they broke their own line soon after that ad.
>>
>>79785456
I mean that's kind of what happens when you call your line All New All Different and change almost absolutely nothing. New 52 stood on it's legs a lot longer because it was an actual reboot.

DC needs to ride hype off of Batman V Superman and get better writers on their main book. Quality wise there was nothing wrong with the DCYou new books, but comic fans are reluctant to try anything new, and new fans are going to marvel because of the movies.
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>>79795750
>Quality wise there was nothing wrong with the DCYou new books
>>
I read like just one title out of all of marvel, ms marvel and i started it because i thought it could be its own little thing, the she got sorta big, then the universe ended.

It came back, but now shes big and the tone of the book doesnt feel right to what i liked about.

Dropped.

I can't even beging to care back about DC, i was on the middle of an arc then the universe ended.

I will stick with other stuff namely Image, Dark Horse and Mango.
>>
>>79795750
Tom King is going to write Batman when it relaunches, I've only just heard of him through The Vision but I like it. I'm more interested in what Superman will have to offer though.
>>
>>79795642
Thing is, DC is backed by Warner and Marvel is backed by Disney. They need the comics for maintaining trademarks, so even if they took a major hit, the major media conglomerates that own them would likely front the money necessary to get them back on their feet enough that they can maintain those trademarks.

But the issue is with any publisher that relies on the direct market for sales. Local Comic Stores all use Diamond/Direct Market sales for their comics, and all floppies and many trades are also put out through the direct market. But Marvel/DC make up ~70% of the DM. Without Marvel/DC sales, LCSs would not be able to stay in business. No LCSs means that any of these publishers that rely on it would no longer have a venue for selling their product. They'd still have trades and digital, sure, which is one advantage they have now over the 90s crash, but we don't know if trade + digital sales would be able to compensate for LCSes going under and floppies no longer being a viable product anymore.

Basically, without Marvel/DC's sales to prop up the industry, then comic retailers wouldn't be able to stay in business, many non-Big 2 publishers would take a major hit to their ability to sell comics to consumers. They'd have to be able to adapt to a post-Direct Market industry, which is something that Marvel and DC could do since Warner/Disney have a vested interest in keeping them going. But IDW, Boom, BlueWater, Avatar Press, Valiant, Dark Horse... would these publishers be able to survive long enough to adapt? I don't know, that depends on the individual publishers, but regardless they would be getting hurt harder than the Big 2 since they lack the safety net in the case of a crash.
>>
>>79795744
Yeah but if you change it to "we cost slightly less than some of our competitors" then you'd think people would be more willing to try it out.
>>
>>79795826
The record stores fell and the music industry adapted. The comic book stores will fall (hopefully sooner rather than later) and the comic industry will adapt. Will we lose people in the process? Probably...
>>
>>79795997
I still see plenty of record/music stores.
>>
>>79795549
>Every comic shop I've ever encountered was a barren fucking wasteland run by creepy fat assholes.
Or, in case of major metropolitans, fat assholes and snobby hipster fucks.
>>
>>79795826
Likewise, Image, who could probably get by going full trades and digital since that's where many of their sales are would run into a big problem too. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the majority of Image creators either got their start with the Big 2 or do Image books while also doing Big 2 books.

The reason for this is that Image requires the creative teams to front the money for advertising and publishing which is why Image comics are high risk high reward. If you have a successful Image comic, you'll be making fucking BANK, more so than you could at any other publisher, but if it fails, then you could have just wasted not only your time but your own personal funds.

Marvel/DC act as the safety net for Image creators. By doing books for Marvel/DC, they can get the steady paychecks necessary to publish their own books through Image. Also, Marvel/DC give creators way more exposure.

Hickman was a no name before working at Marvel. His East of West and Manhattan Projects likely wouldn't have gotten any traction or attention had he just launched them outright. But working at Marvel and doing books like F4 and Avengers got him a huge fanbase, and that fanbase followed him to his creator owned books, resulting in them being high sellers. So much so that he no longer needs to do Big 2, since he's popular enough and making enough money on his Image comics that he can get by. Remender, Fraction, KSD, most writers that gain a fanbase through the Big 2 go this route. It's rare these days to see a relatively popular Big 2 creator that doesn't have an Image book on the side.

But in a situation where no one gives a fuck about Marvel/DC anymore, then these creators are no longer getting their names out there and they're no longer getting the paychecks that would allow them to publish through Image. They'd have to work a second job just to afford to have Image publish the comics that probably wouldn't sell in the first place because people don't know who they are.
>>
>>79796012
I do too, but not like the old days.
>>
I personally want LCS to fuck off. Digital is the way to go.
>>
>>79785456

It's because of the format, even if you attract new people, having to go to the comic book store every week or two is exhausting and often impossible.

TPBs should be the standard.
>>
>>79795997
The music industry is still reeling, actually. Songwriters are still being hurt by streaming giving them an extremely small share of profits from listens.
>>
>>79796125
>Going to a store bi-weekly
>Exhausting
Oh yeah I forgot Americans were lazy fat fucks.
>>
>>79796157
Did music stop being produced? No.

Do musicians have to work harder and tour more often to make profits? Yes. Whatever, musicians complain because they can't into rockstars with their first record deal anymore.
>>
>>79796237
>Whatever, musicians complain because they can't into rockstars with their first record deal anymore.
No, they're complaining that they can barely get by when they're still producing the same product they've been making for years, are arguably getting more exposure than before and are getting paid considerably less for it.

Pro-tip: songwriters aren't necessarily the ones performing their songs.

http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/will-streaming-music-kill-songwriting
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34701607
>>
>>Stories are lackluster, unfocused, and excessively long as companies think in terms of collected editions, not individual issuees. The tone is mostly dark and uninviting.

This is -- BY FAR -- the most important point, but /co/ will keep saying, "hurr it's the relaunches!!!! it's the SJWs!!!!!!"

I think a very obvious hint at "what could be" is in KFC's comic that they made with DC:

https://www.comixology.com/KFC-The-Colonel-of-Two-Worlds-2015-1/digital-comic/289859

This is a silly, fun issue that is fully resolved in a single issue. And guess what? It was much more popular than expected. AND people still are begging for more of this type of comic.

Yet, across the industry, everyone is convinced that over-serious and/or multi-issue storylines are the only things that gain traction.

NEWSFLASH: people hate spending money. And another NEWSFLASH: they hate spending 3 to 4 dollars on something that probably won't be satisfying in and of itself. Or, rather, if they DO spend money, the bad experience will keep them from re-buying next month.

I swear to god, comics are the only long-form creative medium that -- on an industry-wide basis -- suffers from UNDER-stuffing. TV, movies, radio/podcasts, novels, music: each one of these mediums has loads of criticism for being overstuffed with plot and other things. Comics are the only thing that just aren't worth people's money.

Even though comic companies are trying to reach for a broader audience, they're forgetting how comics became part of America's DNA in the first place: Golden Age and Silver Age shenanigans.
>>
>>79786910
Cost inflates as demand diminishes to justify production costs. Sure creator demands, paper quality, and supply are all huge factors. But it's mostly due to overarching production versus actual interest in singles.

I know I haven't bought a single issue in over a decade, Like others say, there is little to get out of a single issue and there are so many ads, reading in collected editions is cheaper fiscally, and a more satisfying experience.
>>
>>79796219

Sorry, I don't speak meme.
>>
>Sorry Thor fans, you gotta love Jane now or else...
>Sorry X-fags, you gotta buy Inhumans now, and no merchandise for you!
>Sorry Peter fags, Spidey is Iron Man with a SM suit, and Slott is still breathing down your neck
>Sorry Cass fags but here's the first ever Asian superhero
>Hey movie fans, here's the politically correct Avengers
>Hey Steve Rogers fans here's black Captain America; you're not a racist, are you?
>Bendis is still writing your bed time stories

Gee, I wonder why sales are going down?
>>
>>79796481
While I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, the relaunches seem to go hand in hand with how companies think of trades first and individual issues second. They're connected.
>>
>>79796481
>This is a silly, fun issue that is fully resolved in a single issue. And guess what? It was much more popular than expected. AND people still are begging for more of this type of comic.
Marvel and DC have both put out funnier, cuter stuff that doesn't sell
>>
How does stuff like Conan and red Sonja sell?
>>
comic book companies are actually run by braindead retards

they crashed their market by abusing the shit out of variant covers and now they are doing the exact same thing again with #1s

main spider-man comic has had annual #1s for 3 years now when previously it had a 700 issue run with only 2 resets in its whole life
>>
>>79796787
Low
>>
>>79789643
Every week I spend tons of money on books I don't read. I think it's just an excuse to visit the guys at my LCS.
>>
>>79790330
I read Yotsuba&!, isn't that enough?
>>
>>79795747
>Hal in front

The Johns era is already dating itself
>>
>>79792559
So he can be free of reading them? You can read, right?
>>
>>79796661
IMO, the recent examples from DC -- Bizarro and Bat-Mite -- are just more evidence for what I'm saying.

Hell, the Bat-Mite sneak preview got a lot of hype for what's essentially a D-list character. But sales after the first issue tanked because 1) the issue was a lot more serious than the sneak preview and 2) it was clearly part of a long (well, 6 issue) storyline where the reader is supposed to be manipulated into continuing reading. The sneak preview hinted at random, complete, and compact stories for Bat-Mite, but that's not what the first issue delivered.
>>
>>79785456
I blame Win-O threads.
>>
>>79795747
FOR ME ?
>>
>>79796918
Yeah, I've got roughly ~$450 worth of unread comics.
>>
>>79796617
>Hey movie fans, here's the politically correct Avengers
This. I'm fine with the team itself (aside from Kamala, I love her and I want her away from event/teamshit) but it's very alienating towards the few movie fans who want more out of the team they're familiar with.
>>
>>79787789
Because white guilt. They seem to be under the impression that their established fans are mostly tumblrinas, because, the ones who do happen to be are the loudest.
>>
>>79795549
>Why exactly would putting comics in supermarkets at the checkout line be "nonsense"?

Because of returnability, motherfucker. It's a money pit because you have to take back anything that doesn't sell and stores don't give a fuck about selling your shit as much as possible. That's why Archie tried doing kickstarter to fund their new modern line of comics, that's how strapped for cash they are despite selling digests everywhere.
>>
>>79790474
If you have a tablet, just get a Marvel unlimited account. It is cheap as shit and you have access to a fuckton of older comics. Current marvel is posted with a six month lag. That's okay though, because you can never wait too long to eat shit.
>>
>>79796326
>No, they're complaining that they can barely get by when they're still producing the same product they've been making for years, are arguably getting more exposure than before and are getting paid considerably less for it.

That's the internet for you! You can't stop it so you better evolve or die.
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