That Ollie vs Malcolm fight was fucking pathetic. So I youtubed the fight from season 1. It's not even the same show anymore.
Not sure if the show's ever been good in the first place, but it sure as hell isn't now and that's why I haven't watched an episode since the Canary saga or whatever. I wish people would stop watching Arrow so they'd just kill it already and put their money into some other DC show.
Wow. I haven't gone back to any previous episodes before. Just the way everything is shot is way more interesting to watch.
I don't hate current Arrow but that was kinda interesting to watch and compare right after watching this week's episode.
>green arrow goes down in quality as it enters the expanded universe
Wouldn't be the first time.
CW's cancellation threshold is too low for the to be realistic. The only reason they'd cancel is probably if Amell quit.
Do they have the same choreographers? Do they get to take the same number of takes? Things like that matter.
I think they will end it at 5th season with the last flashback being the first scene of the pilot episode. and after that they will move to the Unitary show of all great characters, a la JSA
THAT FUCKING CHARACTER RUINED THE ENTIRE SHOW, REEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Why does Guggenheim still have a job? He has he ever done anything good at DC at any point?
At least you have some guys like Beechen who are shit at comics but good at cartoon episodes. Guggenheim is bad at everything. Holy shit.
>the reason I started watching
>the reason I stopped
Why did they have to ruin her?
What happened? Arrow started as a nolan-realism vigilante show that decided to have a change of heart once Flash fans flocked to the comic book style shenanigans. Things were fine with Deathstroke, but the series has been a steady decline since. Part of the problem is that the writers want both the Batman and female crowd and feel the need to recycle Batman content, keep up with the flashbacks, and poor efforts into Felicity. Moreover it doesnt seem like the writers know where to go with Oliver and as a result focus on less interesting characters. Now we've reached a point where fan patience is wearing thin and theyre too invested to quit because things might turn around. Of course I cant speak for everyone, but personally I feel that Arrow is trying to be everything but a Green Arrow adaption and more of a "what our focus groups want" kind of thing.
Something stuck out for me here.
Their kiss forms a
I'd have to watch it again, but I think he left for the same reason he left originally, because they couldn't know he was alive. He had only come back because of the villain forcing him to.
I though with Ollie being the Green Arrow he could become actually the character in the comics but still they are holding on to the grimdark meme while the universe is getting more and more absurd
Barry is at Earth 2 and has a maniac far stronger than him tailing him around
I literally cant recall him saying that he was leaving again. It would be retarded as fuck plot-wise as well.
>thea, his pretty much one true love is dying.
>well i'll better skip town fast
Would make sense if he tried to help her and then leave because whatever reasons he has.
But we can't take away screentime from Felicity, so it makes sense.
Dude, Arrow has been complete shit for a while.
It got by on some good things, but you could tell it was building a house made of rocks and dry turds stacked on dry spaghetti with some of the casting decisions and story directions.
I know, should've specified that show has become this.
S01 and S02 scenes were really on another level compared to what we have now.
I really used to love this show, now I force myself every week to watching it. baka fampai
>Comparing a fight in the middle of a season to the literal CLIMAX of a season.
Are you fucking high? Plus, those characters had their faces hidden, making it easier to have stunt doubles do more in the fight. Not to mention there was a lot more going on there emotionally. Holy shit, why are you even trying to compare?
I actually kind of like Darhk. CW's rendition of the character pretty much being a completely original creation regardless, is a pretty charismatic character with quite a lot of presence in every scene he is in.
Ra's al Ghul was a complete and utter travesty however. I really tried to like it but it all went to shit from there. Ra's al Ghul was never allowed to be a good antagonist, and with the lack of a good antagonist the show's direction just went to complete and utter shit.
I have to admit, I actually finally like Laurel and modern Thea is fine too. The new lair is a lot better than whatever they had before. Diggle is kind meh whatever like he's always been. He's not strictly terrible, but he has always felt somewhat out of place. Something that has only grown worse ever since the whole original HIVE and ARGUS plots went to complete shit and what with the suicide squad and everything being canned. That was really the only tangible thing tying Diggle to the show, what with acting as something of a bridge between the regular team and ARGUS's world. The recent developments, no matter what one might think of the mask itself, has improved the character somewhat. The vigilante thing makes him feel slightly less out of place but he still feels quite out of place. It has improved his dynamic with the rest of the cast a lot though.
Laurel was completely unbearable for the first seasons, but was actually allowed to be one of few with meaningful character development in S3, and as of S4 I honestly quite like her. I'd dare to go as far and say that she is one of the best supporting casts in the entirety of the show. And one of very few characters that do not feel out of place, be it inside or outside of the vigilantism.
But the show really needed someone like Darhk earlier. The show truly hinges on having a good antagonistic force. And S4 has really suffered from being dragged down by most of the developments and even the past pacing set by S3.
I didn't think she was bad at all; it was Thea who I thought was a huge bitch.
But I let it all slide, since Ollie was a huge fuckup and it was clear that they were all still emotionally fucked up over his, his father's, and Sara's death
nobody cared about the boat captain.
Laurel and her father had huge beef with Ollie - not only did he break her heart, but as far as they knew, Sara died because of him.
What could Arrow do then? Think about it, they need a good villain and to stay with the heros. They can't do joker or any of the previous used, and deathstroke was pretty good. They can't go to much towards Batman because that'll be heavily criticized. Possibly Scarecrow, croc, grundy, penguin, mad hatter, these are actually really hard to think of, man-bat? I didn't know Damian Dark so they could find someone like that. I'm not even sure
Season 1 of Arrow was GOAT and has been on decline since then. Subsequent series have had a good villain and backbone of episodes running through them but the filler episodes and influx of garbage-tier story telling revolving side characters (FELICITY) has turned the show into a soap with people who occasionally do vigilante work, as opposed to a show about vigilantes who also have feels.
>S3: Malcolm trains Ollie to fight Ra'as, it's obvious he's still the superior fighter
>S4: Ollie completely BTFOs Malcolm and literally humiliates him in a fight
Just put this show out of its misery.
Reminder that Ollie got beaten by some random literalwho nobody villain, who then proceeded to get roasted alive by BASED Thea.
You also forget that after that Oliver was personally trained by a man with centuries of combat experience then managed to kill him..
I don't want to defend Arrow, especially not season 3, but that's nitpicking.
The Anarky thing is retarded, though. I agree.
I didn't exactly look like Oliver actually got stronger from his training in the League.
Except in the Flash episode where he floored Thawne, but Oliver is always twice as badass in the Flash crossovers due to Batgod syndrome.
Oliver could've been replaced by Cisco in that fight and was extremely lucky it was Reverse Flash and not Zoom facing him.
If he doesn't end up at least in the hospital against Zoom, I will be disappoint after Deathstorm and Reverb.
>I didn't know Damian Dark so they could find someone like that.
Damian Darhk here is essentially a completely different character. But honestly, that's fine. I would argue the show as it currently stands really needed someone like him.
Darhk as a character is much more flexible exactly because he was a nobody character that they could do what they wanted with. Broadening their options for how to dig themselves out of the trench dug by previous developments. And all things considered, I would say that it has been an excellent move. The problem has not been Darhk.
Now the problem is just starting to mostly be about its execution. Darhk was a suitable character for the show and its current position. And I could even find myself arguing that the premise and basic plot set in motion is too. It's fine, really.
But right about now, as in one or a couple of episodes or ago. This development and this pace is starting to lose steam. The next episode better be pretty damn good to make up for it if they want to have a decent chance of picking up the pace again.
Likewise with the flashback scenes. They've been rather dreary as of late. By themselves I don't even think they're that bad. I kind of like what they're doing with them and the execution of the scenes themselves aren't that bad. I just feel like there is very little incentive for caring the way they have been presented lately.
Initially the flashbacks were all about learning about the island and how Oliver became the vigilante. And as it established that all of it built towards establishing Deathstroke. Even the first shot of the first flashback was of Deathstroke's mask. It had something going on from the get go.
But there has been pretty much no indication of what Reiter is actually looking for on the island It's something magical for sure. Someone like Constantine being a regular cast member of the flashbacks as they currently are would have probably have done a lot to help. But as it is it's just flashback after flashback of Reiter searching for "something", and with the cast having absolutely no clue as to what. Aside from it likely being a big deal. And such a lose premise just doesn't grab you when the pacing is this slow. If Constantine or someone with more clues would have dropped more hints along the way the search for this power would have probably been a lot more engaging. But the show isn't really any wiser to what Reiter is actually doing since they first introduced him basically. And that's really a missed opportunity because otherwise the scenes aren't that bad. They just leave the audience clueless as they are.
I never liked flashbacks and feel like it's the charisma of actors that mad them tolerable.
In season 1 we had pre-Mirakuru Slade.
In season 2 we had KGBeast.
Every character in season 3 and 4 flashbacks has charisma of a wooden plank.
The problem with Arrow villains is that Oliver seems to have in character plot armour. For some reason, instead of hiring someone like Deadshot to kill him, instead, the likes of Dhark seem content to just play with kiddie gloves and avoid actually "hurting" him unless they bump into him personally; and even then, Dhark lingers long enough to allow Oliver to be rescued every time.
Dhark's stopped being a threat and is more of a joke by now. Compared to villains who've actually killed cast members in both Flash and LoT, he seems like a child who doesn't really know what the hell he's doing.
Don't get me wrong, his actor is fine. But he can't make up for the non-threat that the writers have turned him into in the long term.
Then you have Arrow airing after Flash, too. Yesterday, Joe got offed by Deathstorm, Deadshot by Reverb and Zoom killed Reverb and Deathstorm execution style without even breaking a sweat.
Today, the "big threat" from Dhark is literally killing a helpless child to make the Arrow even madder, instead of, say, hiring Slade Wilson's son to kill Oliver or something that might be equally entertaining AND effective.
I'm going to be brutally honest with you here:
The Flashbacks are currently the best part of the show. They're the ONLY part of the show that has a plot that's going somewhere. You may not think they're "good", but not only do they have a far better cast, they also focus on the actual main character and hold far less filler drama.
>Dhark's stopped being a threat and is more of a joke by now.
I'd agree. And that's kind of what I mean by how they are messing up the pacing from what, I'd argue at the very, successfully established.
I realize now that they wanted some breathing room to have plots like disbanding the league and setting up Merlyn as a true villain again. I get that, and I can even get behind it. I think.
But they are really floundering Darhk's potential the way they're executing this.
If they would have just found a little bit of time to squeeze in elements of Darhk becoming closer and closer to actually completing whatever project he is doing. That would have likely done a lot to serve the purpose of raising the tension. And combining these episodes to that plot, even if they aren't directly connected to it at the moment. That way it wouldn't feel so forgotten. And it wouldn't feel as much of a joke.
It would even convey the feeling that they may all get in real trouble for having ignored him. And that's good tension to have because that's raises everything for when he makes his serious return.
Oliver losing really does come across as literal jobbing when Thea finishes everything right afterwards. And that's a tiny bit silly even if it set off Thea's bloodlust plot.
They should have just made Diggle, Laurel, or Roy (if he was still a regular member of the show) to job instead. Most likely Diggle. Laurel has had like over one and a half season full of jobbing after jobbing.
All that said. The actual action scenes with Anarky were really much better than I would have ever expected from modern Arrow.
I mean. Just look at this. From the weapons used, to the staging. And the choreography. It was all real neat. But we've barely even had things like it in so long. While things like it in earlier seasons probably did a lot to carry the whole show in between otherwise slow episodes. But this was awesome. Which I sadly can't bring myself to say about the action of the latest episode.
They're bad at their jobs and have no idea what they're doing.
Even S3 had a (flimsy) premise, but I can't even figure out what S4 is supposed to be about. This whole season just seems like filler for what are supposed to be meaningful moments, but they just fall flat on their face.
I loved Arrow, but I hope it gets cancelled. The money and time could be better spent. I know my time could be.
The league plot is really just another example of how bad these writers are. The impression I get is that some people have to fight tooth and claw to even get this kind of continuation going and anything good they might do with it is being actively sabotaged by someone saying "No, insert more Felicity" and "Oliver needs to face off against Merlyn. Also, you have exactly one episode to resolve this entire arc". It really feels like the writers and producers are split down the middle, with some (Berlanti, Speed Weed) actually writing Felicity as the little shit she is, others going out of their way to praise her into high heavens. Some wanting characters handled decently and exicting plots, others pushing hard for more filler drama and faux feels. The result is we get a lot of filler drama and the good ideas we occassionally see pop up (Anarky, The League, even Dhark's main agenda) are literal side shows.
This is insane. I doubt any of the writers are as autistic as the fans or think Felicity is a "little shit". If anything, last week's episode was a return to her S1&2 self, not the bizarre self-flagellation you make it out to be.
"I just pwned you!"
No. It wasn't.
We need the Felicity that was a techie goofball, unknowingly ran her mouth in entendres, thought out loud and embarrassed herself. That's the Felicity I remember. I don't know who this other girl is.
>I doubt any of the writers think Felicity is a little shit
You honestly think good writers can't spot a crappy Mary Sue?
>disliking Felicity is autism
Welp, we know who you are.
>A return to her season 1 and 2 self
That "self" never changed. She has NOT been written differently as a character throughout all four seasons. The only thing that has changed is how her environment reacts to her.
The sad thing about Arrow is that I feel like they have finally built up the show and its cast to where they can really use what they've got.
The current team is a lot better than what the show has had before.
Their base of operations, with the actual lair in combination with Palmer Tech, is a lot better than anything they have had before.
A lot of things has really been built up to where it can be properly used. With the exception of the League I guess. Just about everything with the League was sadly terrible almost from start to finish to the point where it almost literally imploded unto itself.
But all things considered. I would probably argue that the destination the show has arrived at is a lot more usable and has a lot more potential than the show has had before. It's just that the show again and again completely fails to use it again and again. It's like the show finally has everything it struggled to have when the show first stared out. Only now they no longer have the talent to use it.
>That "self" never changed. She has NOT been written differently as a character throughout all four seasons. The only thing that has changed is how her environment reacts to her.
Yeah, you're fucking nuts.
It's kind of sad how Merlyn in the beginning, someone loosely associated with the league. Was more like you would expect from the league than the actual league we got, Ra's included.
>calling a character's personality crap when that's what's shown on screen is "sperging out"
>but I'm not a fanboy, really! I swear!
It's a bit weird, yes. It's also strange how HIVE has changed from contract killers to thuggee cultists.
The biggest mistake of that decision was to make Merlyn someone special. The writers made it so he could easily defeat any member of the League except for maybe Ra's. Merlyn being an ordinary member of the League who's no more competent than the rest would've made the entire organization feel much scarier.
That is assuming the writers weren't hacks, and made the League actually competent instead of Foot Clan rejects they were on the show. I get it that mooks are supposed to lose, but they at least should feel competent. Samaritan agents on Person of Interest are a better League of Assassins than the actual League on Arrow.
I'm disappointed by H.I.V.E.
They're supposed to be that huge international criminal organization with the best contract killers around, yet they don't really feel any more dangerous than Slade's and Brother Blood's organization.
That's what they were doing before the writer switch. "Mook" tier could have just been people without uniform at all who are given a knife and pointed at a target. Your fodder doesn't need 'training' if it can be literally anyone.
Yeah, you can tell the showrunners don't want to get into the organisational structure at all. Both League and HIVE have been run on the foot clan/power ranger putty formula for seasons 3 and 4.
>The funny thing is that somewhat agree with you, you're just mental about it.
What I said:
>Felicity is characterised as a little shit by some writers
What you said:
What the writer had her say:
>I pwned you
>That's not how hacking works Felicity/Oliver, shut up, I know better!
>You're picking on me because of my disability, not because I fucked up the presentation!
That falls under "little shit" in my books.
So I've been scouring the internet and according to the rumor mill this might all be somewhat Katie's fault for acting like a huge diva, something she's got a history of.
I mean they replaced her as Black Canary and Ollie's love interest and now she gets almost no lines.
It's several rumors put together over the course of the show's run.
The diva thing goes back a long way to the start of her career, but I've seen several reports about they've had it with her shit since S1. Was she even a love interest in S2? I think that was almost entirely Sara.
Even in season 2 arrow was as good as I remember it. S3 was only worth it to watch fucking Arrow get mauled by ra's al ghul and thrown off a mountain. That's how the show should have ended. The league kills everyone then Oliver dies trying to get revenge. Good ending.
After two seasons. She's been in every episode - she's the female lead and the write her like they want nothing to do with her.
It's just rumor and conjecture, but it kind of fits. I'm a Laurelfag if it helps.
We needed to see more executive officers.
Lady Shiva, David Cain, Chesire, maybe more Sara. Anyone to make it seem like Nysaa isn't the only competent member. Maybe Chase being an actual threat and a rival for Roy. I imagine Austin Butler got a better job so fucked off from the show but he was only in like two episodes.
Generals allow the mooks to be mooks, as they tend to be in the comics honestly, and still have an elite member that gives the gang a run for their money.
As it stands the group didn't even have Ubu. They have Nyssa and some mooks.
Imagine a season where Sara didn't die. Where Laurel took the mantel up after realizing the courts just weren't doing it. Then the League comes in not only for Malcolm's head, but to raise a city they view as impure and corrupt. To finish Malcolm's work.
Ollie has to form an uneasy alliance with him because they need all the help they can get and his inner knowledge of the league is too valuable to push aside, and Sara becomes a conflicted character that's stuck within the league trying to fix the problem her own way.
Season 3's not that terrible. It's bad, but it's not as godawful as people make it out to be. Felicity wasn't even the biggest problem with it. Malcolm was. Because everything is his fault for his terrible plan and we have a whole season of "BUT HE'S THEA'S DAD I DON'T CARE OF HE'S A MASS MURDERER GUYS WE GOTTA SAVE HIM!" which lead to nothing but absolute garbage.
Ollicity is certainly a problem in the season though. Felicity just doesn't really kick into high gear shit until around the last third.
The flashbacks are bad from a basic plot perspective but Maseo, Akio and Tatsu are generally likable and have some good interactions with Ollie. Ollie also goes through some good character development. I think they get a lot of slack for not being island-related.
Best Canary came back anyway and is one of the biggest leads in Legends so I ain't even mad. Ollie and Sara were my favorite characters and at least one of them is being utilized atm.
I can't choose between Stein, Snart, Mick and Sara. Then Ray's just pleasant to me; need one of those on every team.
They kind of have to just due to how he is Merlyn.
The only way to actually kill off Merlyn. Would be to magically bring back Tommy somehow. Even though he is the deadest of all dead characters.
"Merlyn" is the Green Arrow's nemesis. He has literal plot armor.
Legends of Tomorrow just really impresses me right around every turn or so. I like literally every character of the team. I am loving the show, and the character interactions and how the show is juggling its huge cast. It's all so much, much better than I had ever dared to imagine.
But even at its basics. I find it kind of funny. None of them have been major, major characters of their own shows. Yet they are all very likeable. And now they are all together and bigger together. I love it.
The person everyone are so incredibly pissed at in the flash forward at the graveyard, is most certainly Merlyn.
They are in the middle of establishing him as the true nemesis.
I worry for when Guggenheim's shit is going to show. That 1950s lesbo love story positively reeks of him and him alone. I think we're going to see some really bad episodes with him at the helm.
Hopefully not. At the moment it has managed to keep up the excitement really well.
Too bad there is over a week left until the next episode though. But I will gladly watch the episode again when it airs later either way.
I really think Wildcat's actor leaving and whatever happened in regards to Austin Butler and Chase really killed some momentum the season was building. It was too plots just thrown to the wind.
I think the whole death arc was too short and Ollie shouldn't have come back until way later in the season. They should have found something else for Oliver to do in that time. Like have him and Tatsu traveling for a bit of time, or he could have trained with Richard Dragon or Lady Shiva for a bit, or maybe even have him go straight to the island with Thea and Malcolm and actually spend more than a damn episode on it.
Season 1: Average. Not using that as an insult. It was a pretty average crime/superhero/drama. The love triangles and some subplots were awful, but the action and overall story was really good. The flashback scenes were pretty amazing.
Season 2: Really impressive and almost fantastic. Slade was a great villian, and even some of the side villains were pretty cool. The main story with Slade trying to get revenge was simple but probably the best story arch of the show. It was gritty and I liked it. Some of the drama ALMOST worked, but it's still CW and they couldn't pull it off well enough.
Season 3: First bad season. The main plot was boring as crap. The drama/love subplots were practically unwatchable. The fighting was progressively worse than it was in the previous seasons. The characters seemed like they lost their personality. It wasn't entirely bad though. Ra's was a pretty chill baddy, and it was kind of cool seeing Oliver as a bad guy for a little bit, and I think there was 2 or 3 good episodes. Still the overall season was crap.
Season 4: Horrible so far. I can't really think of any redeeming qualities. The main plot is a convoluted boring mess. What the fuck is even going on anymore? I can't follow the plot because of how horribly it's written. Non of the villains are good, even Savage is disappointing. Why can't they just drop the League of Assassins crap already? It didn't work in season 3 and it's not working in season 4. The fighting is horrible filmed, the shots are terrible, the dialogue is laughable. I don't even know why I still watch the show at this point.
>Merlyn threatens Oliver with a fate worse than death
>had earlier revealed he know about Oliver's son
Oliver seems pretty unconcerned about this, which is pretty hilarious by the end of the episode
They showed him beating the bronze tiger in a straight up fist fight
There is litterally nothing richard dragon or lady shiva can teach him.
So there being that one guy out there that can hand him his shit and him being low on the totem pole when it comes to fighters was thrown out of the window for a quick and easy green arrow am the greetest beat down.
Merlyn has been established as the true final boss like nine times at this point. He vacillates between being an actual, genuine villain and Arrow's version of Kramer from episode-to-episode.
He should have died in S3, the idea that he's still a player in this universe after blowing up half of Starling and brainwashing his daughter to kill Oliver's waifu is fucking nonsense. If the writers had any balls he would have been killed off in S3, Nyssa would have become the new Ra's and then she could actually matter to the overall narrative.
Because REEEEE ROMANCE REEEEEE
We just had a thread yesterday about how Patty was the Flash equivalent of Felicity and she ruined S2. Literally any smell of romance triggers /co/ at this point.
>seems massively out of place in tone and pacing.
Sounds like entirely standard breather episode to me. Oh that's right,I forgot, breathers are now considered pure, irredeemable filler.
>We just had a thread yesterday about how Patty was the Flash equivalent of Felicity and she ruined S2.
Wow, so it took two weeks before Patty went from best girl to Felicity 2.0.
People are sick of every chick either being an awful lesbian character or fucking the mc.
No seriously, it's a show for white tween highschool girls with juuuust enough action and comic book stuff to attract or at least keep males interested.
A lesbian love story plopped right into the middle of that is honestly there for no one at all.
>Merlyn has been established as the true final boss like nine times at this point.
It has been very clear that the character has been meant to move in that direction. But it hasn't really been until lately that they are really pushing this development into action.
>A lesbian love story plopped right into the middle of that is honestly there for no one at all.
It's a world where people now considering attractive TV lesbian to be boring and unwelcome.
More like...what's the rest of the cast doing? Are they going to be sidelined for this or are there going to be other neat things they can do?
I don't mind a slower episode, but given the track record for romance in terms of writing quality, focusing an entire episode on what the CW writers have time and time again shown us they SUCK at depicting is a really bad call.
>Patty wasn't Felicity recycled
Oh, look, it's this again.
>romance triggerz /co/
The minimum bar for romance I have is Rosamunde Pilcher. Your beloved Olicity isn't even close, so kindly fuck off until you grow some standards.
The cycle continues.
Because heaven forbid we admit the problem with S2 is Zoom being a non-entity, Jay being a glorified seatfiller who serves no purpose beyond fanservice and fatal amounts of main-narrative filler, clearly all of this is Patty's fault.
I really want to sit down with the writer who thought replacing a dynamic, fleshed out and well-characterized antagonist like Thawne was in S1 with a narrative block of wood like Zoom for S2 was a good idea. They've had more then half a fucking season and he's still a complete cipher, it's ridiculous.
There's only 23 episodes a year. It's not running constantly. You don't need filler. It's not anime. If you need an episode that's not A-plot at least use a good fucking villain.
>If you need an episode that's not A-plot at least use a good fucking villain.
Who's to say Vandal Savage doesn't pop up at the last minute and cockblock Sara? Episode descriptions are really vague, especially about b-plots at the best of times.
Oliver helped Nyssa seize control of and become the head of the league in place of Merlyn.
The first thing Nyssa does is disband the league altogether.
Merlyn becomes super pissed, curses Oliver. And sells out Oliver's son to Darhk as revenge.
>My waifu! My waifu!
The issue with Patty is that for her to have a productive role that hasn't been filled already, other characters needed to shut off their brains entirely. Even then, most of her plotline was pure filler rebound fuck, the only entertaining idea being the literal blind date.
She had nothing to do with Zoom, she had nothing to do with anything other than 'love interest for Barry' and Weather Wizard, who is barely a thing in this season. For her to have a narrative impact, the season's focus would have to be on the rogues and, simply put, it isn't. Hence why she is mostly filler.
As for Hunter being a seat-filler, I look forward to the day when his connection to Zoom is revealed and you bite your keyboard in pure, spastic nerdrage.
That's really the problem. We're worried he won't, because it's too minimalist. Making sense yet?
I just really want to know what happened to the fights like the ones that have been posted. What's with the dip in quality? It's like power rangers tier now. It can't be budget. Just seems like they don't give a fuck.
Why'd she even want the fucking league in the first place if she was just going to disband it? Even if she changed her mind later, why not give it back to Merlyn? Turn it over to Ollie or find a new successor? Just like a woman to shit on everything.
Do you really think every person who defends a female character on a V show is in love with her? Because you spam this shit when anyone defends a female character you don't like, it goes beyond simple shitposting.
You can like a character without being in love with them, you do actually understand this right? Like that process goes through your brain and your recognize this possibility?
>connection to Zoom
I literally could not care less. No revel would be worth the 13 episodes of non-character wheel-spinning.
I think Arrow, and Flash too more than likely, need to either switch to half season arcs or to start running mini arcs like the Brick storyline. Except not crappy like the Brick storyline.
Season 1 isn't that great and it's pretty obvious that they were making up a good portion of the Undertaking plot as they went along. Arrow has never really been a great show, just an entertaining one.
>Just seems like they don't give a fuck.
They don't, man. Everything is focusing primarily on olicity while everything else comes second. That's what happens when you let the dude whos in charge of a show have a pet character.
No one cares about lesbian drama anon. Espescially if they aren't naked 20/10 and skinnimax lesbians that are "doing it for the boys watching".
It's CW tier lesbian drama with average looking chicks.
The fuck is that for?
Why is litterally every other chick in sci-fantasy gay and or a mary sue constructed by betas and creepy broads who have the vagina monologues and the dworken manifesto memorized now?
In love? Nah, but you are hilariously undercutting the narrative standards you otherwise measure characters with in her favour. The hypocrisy is amusing and reveals a heavy bias on your part. Patty's romance plotline is just as superfluous as Jay's with Caitlyn for the overall series. The only reason Jay is liked more is because he has a connection to the main plot and Patty doesn't.
Her connection is to Weather Wizard and was resolved at the mid-season finale. Anything after that with Patty is unnecessary and the episodes she overstayed her welcome were pure standard CW relationshit shlock and cringe. Most of the stuff prior to that had zilch to do with Weather Wizard as well. It's almost like he was an afterthought so the love interest for this season could have some minor justification to even exist.
It's not a double standard because she wasn't a member of the team who was trying to stop Zoom. She's a glorified civilian who was a romance. Jay is a member of the Scooby Squad who has contributed pretty much dick after about episode 3 or 4, and instead spends all his time whining about Wells or running away for multiple episodes because of how pointless he is.
And the idea that romance only has worth if it connects to the main plot doesn't even make any sense. TV shows are not bullet trains that have to forward the main narrative as fast as possible.
When you focus all of your attention on said pet character that everything else is just a "don't worry about it" and do in one take kind of thing. The final fight between oliver and ra's was so obviously done in one take, it really hurt to watch. They just did the same choreographed movements, albeit slow and steady, over and over again.
>Why'd she even want the fucking league in the first place if she was just going to disband it?
Because she saw herself as the one and only rightful heir to the mantle of Ra's al Ghul, and she despises Merlyn. Letting Merlyn remain in charge was something she could abide, even if her wish was to disband the league afterwards.
And Patty, who is actually a cop, Joe's partner and part of the metahuman task force, so, anything BUT a civilian does what again?
-Damsel in distress
-Love interest for main character
We already have characters for that who actually have a connection to the main plot.
>But it doesn't make sense to connect characters to the main plot!
Never write anything, ever. Characters need to have an arc. The one Patty had with Weather Wizard and the metahuman task force was largely sidelined in favour of yet-another-romance-subplot, which we already have Jay for. Both characters make each other redundant and in the end, Jay has a connection to Zoom and the portals, while Patty is of lesser importance to the setup for the grand finale.
TLDR: Her characterisation was redundant and her potential wasted, because the focus of this season is LoT and Zoom, not the rogues. In a rogue-based season, she would have fared much, much better.
Do people seriously have any real problems with the current season of Flash?
Yes people naturally missed Thawne as the antagonist. But the season has still been overall quite incredible. Like season 1.
And tons of things are way better than in season 1. Like Iris for instance She is an actual character in this season. They also resolved most of Barry's family drama. And the season has done a lot to develop non-Zoom villains like the Rogues and Grodd. As well as supporting cast like Cisco. While "re-"introducing Wells efficiently developing his character.
And while Patty has admittedly been largely irrelevant to the overarching plot, she has never really dragged the show down. Even the moments where she took up the most time and focus, it was alongside the inclusion and development of great antagonists like Cold, and the Trickster. Or the Turtle which involved Wells (and Zoom). And the moment this was done they didn't even drag on with Patty even more. But I feel like some feel cheated exactly because of that reason, as if they wanted it culminate more somehow. But that doesn't change how she never really dragged the show down even if she didn't directly contribute to much. And by progressing the way that they did they even prevented her from actually dragging the show down.
People have kind of bitched about Wally ever since the original casting and since it was made apparent that he wouldn't be the true comicbook Wally. But he has barely even had a chance to have much of an impact on the show either negatively or positively yet. And he should probably be given a fair chance. Just try to not think of him as "Wally", but rather a Wally, or another character named Wally.
The season started off strong, directly picking up from previous events without dragging over the events. Kicking it off with Flash of Two Worlds and Family of Rogues, introducing the multiverse and really building up Cold's character.
Then it effectively introduced Jax, who is really the type of character who Ronnie should have been all along. Developing both Jax and Stein in tandem. Not to mention the rest of the team. Building up towards the introduction of Zoom himself after having only been mentioned by name. And to finish it off with a huge Grodd plot that also very much helped to develop Wells.
Then you had the huge crossover that also effectively set up Legends of Tomorrow which has been a really strong show itself up until now.
Only to end it with the huge Trickster and the rogues episode. A great finale that came with great development for the related characters.
It has been gunning it pretty strong and steady since the start of the season. Yet I have been starting to see more and more complaints as of late for some reason.
But don't the actors have any remorse? If I was Amell or Barrowman I'd feel bad about that performance and I'd have something to say about it. It really looked phoned in and they just don't care. If they don't care about their performance why should I ya know?
>Do people seriously have any real problems with the current season of Flash?
Zoom is too uninteresting. Maybe they will develop him into a better character, but he's just fucking nothing so far. I get that they want to make him a mysterious horror movie villain, but they fucked up by making him lose all momentum.
I didn't even like Thawne like most of /co/, but Zoom is just boring.
>the focus of this season is LoT and Zoom
Could have fooled me with how little he actually matters.
My big issue with S2 is it lost the well-structured emotional arc Barry had in S1. We had his relationship with Thawne and the whole story involving his mom, which was neatly tied up in the S1 finale due to an emotional choice, not a physical action choice.
Zoom was great for the first few episodes, but it was with the promise that at some point he would become an actual character. Nothing has happened yet because the show thinks keeping his identity secret matters more then fleshing out a villain we might care about. I feel like nothing has actually moved forward for most of the season between Barry getting is back broken and going to Earth-2.
I don't hate S2 or anything, it's fun. But at this point I'm probably enjoying Arrow more, which has worse plotlines but at least they're fucking moving and Dahrk is an established villain who makes sense.
Barry was the character dragging things down in their relationship and that was effectively pretty good character development for him and Wells and it moved the plot along.
The only really big problem this season is Jay, Caitlin not really being necessary, some of the fights are really anti-climactic, and to some degree the way they're pacing Zoom's stuff.
Otherwise the show's been pretty great this season.
Eh, post mid-season finale, Patty was annoying and it was pretty obvious they were padding out the break-up as filler material. Her scenes in the Thawne episode, especially, seemed very much out of place. I was content with the resolution in the prior Turtle one and it made much more sense.
There's also the problem that most of her screentime isn't building up and interacting with the rogues as a cop together with Joe, but romancing Barry. This leads to the above misconception she is a "civilian", when she should be anything but. They really wasted what she could have been, which is unfortunate. As she is, I think we'd have been better off without her.
I like Wally so far. He seems like a legit good guy and is, thankfully, not yet another nerdy type. He even came to check up on his dad when there was a meta wrecking the city. With his heart in the right place and his focus less on geek stuff and more race cars and family, he could become a good addition to the team. I hope the writers borrow more from Jax in LoT, because he seems a very similar archtype, except earlier in his own personal development.
I'm split on it. The Flash bits were really good, but the Arrow crossover was poorly handled, especially in the second half. It had a strong start but ended up anti-climatic.
My only problem is that they've kept pushing Zoom as a season long villain from the very start, and then doing very little with him on screen, instead people just talk about him. Too much telling, not enough showing. The few times Zoom actually does shit it's awesome, but there's too much pussyfooting over him being so overpowered. They should have given him similar small cliffhanger scenes like Eobard had in S1, where he's clearly engineering shit to make Barry run faster and looming in the shadows menacingly, to create suspense before you realize he's a speed vampire. Like, why not have a cliffhanger where you see he has created like a trophy room of other speedsters he's already killed, with Barry's picture working as a place holder for his next victim?
They should have also started the season normally with one off villains, only revealed the doppelganger thing couple of episodes in, made some of the E2 villains of the week be merely refugees running from Zoom, and their motivation was just try to make a quick buck or right wrong they experiences back home on this new, weird Earth-1 they are now living on, etc. instead of making them assassins from the start.
>He vacillates between being an actual, genuine villain and Arrow's version of Kramer from episode-to-episode.
This just works too well, especially with how he keeps turning up in the Arrowcave.
NO TIME FOR COOL FIGHT SCENES
NEED ALL THAT PRECIOUS SCREEN TIME FOR FELICITY DADDY ISSUES
I'm seriously considering the idea of dropping the show and just skimming /co/ talkback for the major points of each episode
I feel bad for Stephen, it's barely his show any more
Yeah, that's right. It's Felicity's fault for poor choreography, and whatnot because say, they sliced budget for Arrow because it's so street level, so that Legends of Tomorrow and Flash could have bigger budgets for the SFX.
>I'm seriously considering the idea of dropping the show and just skimming /co/ talkback for the major points of each episode
That's what I did, and some people got so ass ravaged that I could possibly drop the show.
He almost literally is at points.
>Guys, I have a CRAZY SCHEME that JUST MIGHT WORK against Ra's
>Oh Merlyn, you're so crazy!
Remember when he was an insane terrorist who nuked half a city? The fuck happened to him?
Jesus fuck how can people watch this garbage?
I think I just need to accept the fact that I am no longer the target audience, and the people running Arrow have no problem ignoring the appeal of the main character and would rather pander to Felicityfags
Flash and Legends are way better at actually respecting and catering to the comic book/capeshit audience
There's so many things wrong with those scenes, I was almost laughing at the end.
Cisco is so cute.
>Laurel and her father had huge beef with Ollie - not only did he break her heart, but as far as they knew, Sara died because of him.
FUCKING THANK YOU.
I hate it when people call Laurel a bitch in season 1 because damn it I would've been pissed off at Ollie too.
I really find her more a bitch in season 2. A lot of it felt really forced for the sake of giving her something to do.
Season 1 was understandable and she works through it at a pretty good pace.
Season 2 was the systematic destruction of Laurel as a viable lead and the introduction of Felicity as her replacement, yes.
Season 1 Laurel was fine. Season 3 side character Laurel was fine, too.
Laurel had her assholeish moments in Season 2 but at the same time if my sister came back from the 'dead' and dated my ex right in front of me, I think I would've flew off the deep end too.
Its not even about Oliver helping the city anymore. Its just about whatever situation the side characters get into, and him ending up helping them because Fuck It, You'll Watch It.
Oliver was a much better character before Felicity made him give up shooting to kill.
Malcolm needs to fuck off this show. He has overstayed his welcome, seriously what has he done other than coming from the shadows and saying witty shit.
They said this season oliver will be light hearted and we finally got funny oliver but the shitty drama keeps bringing him down. I feel bad for Amell
>Showdown between Nyssa and Malcom
>Literal leagues of assassins fighting each other
>Nah man have Ollie beat him up in like 10 seconds, we need to make room for a Felicity subplot
yea im done
It's been said she didn't take it seriously in the first season and that she's a huge fucking diva. That's why they introduced a new Canary and made Felicity his love interest, even though she's technically the lead actress.
I mean, I don't know. I'm not there, but things fit.
Honestly season 4 has been much better than season 3, I mean I think people forget how shitty season 3 of Arrow was. It was the worst superhero show I had seen since birds of prey and smallville.
The Flash season 2 has been meh but now that the pointless Patty is gone and with the earth 2 stuff heating up it's becoming fun to watch again. I just want them to focus on the characters they have and stop introducing new boring love interest.
The fight scene's in Arrow are pure shit now.
To he completely honest, if the show were to quickly change into comic Ollie a lot of the current fanbase that doesn't read comics would probably flip shit because its not what they know and completely sudden
No one anyone could possibly care about. The best part of the flashbacks this year is Brad from Continuum playing an angry hillbilly soldier who just hates Ollie and acts like a gigantic cunt for no reason.
So why'd they eventually make her Black Canary? Should've just wrote her out of the show because she has not measured up to Sara at all and I hate how Sara is scared and timid of herself now since coming back from the dead and fucking Laurel needs to comfort her.
Four seasons and I still have to struggle to like Laurel. Goddamn, it's like every time they develop an endearing trait for her two more things get brought in to make her scenes a fucking chore to get through?
Ollivers son is in the grave
>Lot of episodes of Felicity drama where she finds it out he has a son
>Even more Felicity episodes where she spends time with William and accepts him
>Show kills of his mother to replace her with Felicity
>Show runs out of Felicity subplots and kills William off
>A lot more episodes of Felicity grieving
>Felicity becomes an alcoholic and fuses with season 2 Laurel
>Marc Guggenheim found dead in back alley one week later
You know, it's been a while since I've even thought about the early part of season 1 but jesus, that fight from episode 1 is movie quality.
>tfw will never have that quality of fight scene with the comic-book weirdness of the later CW stuff
Because she's under contract and is really good friends with a few executives at the network. Or so I've been told.
We'll see by the end of this season. If he's still with Felicity then you have to wonder what if ever would break them apart.
>Season 4: Horrible so far.
I refer to it as "The Felicity Killed the Show for Good" Season.
>Every character has a conversation for about ten seconds before the next scene
>No matter what is going on at any given point, if your phone rings, you stop everything ans answer it
>Nobody has any idea WHAT the fuck they're doing with relationships
>Romance is such a heavy topic in a show about scientists with super powers fighting crime
>Lead actor can only make 2 facial expressions--dopey happy guy and broody guy
>Literally no sense of urgency in a show where the main focus is super speed
It's so fucking bad and it has been since season 1. The only good part about it was unraveling Dr. Wells' plan and they threw that out the window after a few episodes.
To be fair I kinda think the Arrow writers got shafted by DC. Season 3 was pretty garbage but I feel like Slade and Deadshot were going to relevant for Season 4 because of their relation to HIVE but were suddenly taken off the table, which is why the quality of Season 4 is all over the place. Some episodes were pre planned and others the writing had to get rushed out because they had to scrap a previous script.
>We just had a thread yesterday about how Patty was the Flash equivalent of Felicity and she ruined S2. Literally any smell of romance triggers /co/ at this point.
Really? Patty was the kind of thing that the romance in these shows should be. The characters actually act mature and it complements the main story rather than acting like a tumour and overtaking it (i.e. Felicity and Oliver).
Probably be someone like Gypsy, since we're seeing more of the Detroit era Justice League of America characters in the various shows.
They way they've been fucked over because of the movies means they'll probably mine the lesser-known heroes for now.
Yeah because they really need characters like Gypsy and Vibe for the future Justice League movie.
Of course I can't completely rule it out since we didn't get Blue Beetle because of this shit and really, who the fuck in the movie going public is excited to see Beetle?
I am really glad /co/ is able to see what I have been saying all along, season 1 was the best. It was grounded, planned and full of potential
Then /co/ wished with a monkeys paw and well you got what you wished for. A more comic bookey show
Season 1 was fully planned and setup a foundation of a path of atleast 5 more years.
Then they changed tracks with the whole superpowers thing and opened the pandora's box. Its been all downhill from there due to several on screen as well as off screen reasons
The problem with felicity is not exactly her character, the problem is she is being overused. Also sometimes they dues ex machina her "hacking". Overall she wouldnt be annoying if they had used her in little doses and had still kept the dynamic of her having crush on Oliver while he didnt like her in that way
>The only way to actually kill off Merlyn. Would be to magically bring back Tommy somehow. Even though he is the deadest of all dead characters.
He is the only dead guy who hasnt come back yet, I am sure the wriers will come up with some contrived way of bringing him back. I mean they already established magic so wouldnt take too long for Tommy to come back in some retarded manner
>Season 2? Going downhill
Are you insane? Of course we had some meh filler episodes, but it's been fucking great
Not so much hype as season 1, but Zoom is fucking terrifying, Barry is great, Iris finally stopped being a bitch, Patty was best girl until they axed her, Joe continues to be best dad and the dinamic between Harry and Cisco is amazing
Oh, and Cisco, Cisco continues to be what Felicity could've been:good
See I don't get what the problem is there. Let TV have Ted and the movies have Jaime. Hell with LoT time travel shenanigans it's fucking insane we aren't getting Blue Beetle and Booster Gold.
That Blue Beetle gun and Kord Industries financing STAR LABS ;_;
My apologies. I know next to nothing about Doctor Light. He literally hasn't shown up in anything I've read except a few 90s JLA trades. Sure seems like a weapon Ted would use though.
>Supernatural has better magic shit than Damien
This makes me so mad
They could've gone BALLS TO THE WALLS with it
And HIVE is also such a minor organization, and they've been setting it up for TWO SEASONS for it to do NOTHING
>They could've gone BALLS TO THE WALLS with it
I was hoping last season considering Oliver getting run through with a sword and then KICKED OFF A FUCKING MOUNTAIN and not dying from it meant they were going to have Death of the Endless show up. But nah, it was just the Power of Stubborn.
>They should have also started the season normally with one off villains, only revealed the doppelganger thing couple of episodes in, made some of the E2 villains of the week be merely refugees running from Zoom, and their motivation was just try to make a quick buck or right wrong they experiences back home on this new, weird Earth-1 they are now living on, etc. instead of making them assassins from the start.
This would be really cool, actually
No see when it happens, Oliver will finally have a wife who isn't a crybaby cripple cuck.
That's the best kind of sex.
>mfw felicity can never have sex again
Colton Haynes is gay breh. Like, out of the closet homosexual.
>Earth-2 Tommy has the new Dark Archer
It would be a nice change to see other shows repercusions on Arrow
Ra's wants Oliver to be new Ra's. Oliver says I don't wanna, Ra's stabs Thea to try and convince him, eventually Ra's and Oliver fight, Oliver wins, lets Malcolm become Ra's, then season 4 Felicity is making Oliver live a normal life instead of y'know being a superhero, he gets dragged back when some guy is shitting on Star City, now Oliver is trying to stop him, btw they revived Sara so she could be on Legends
It's so... strange looking back at Season 1 and 2 nowadays
Remember Salmon Ladders? Remember the hype coming from seeing a really obscure character or logo in the background? Remember the grounded sense of reality that slowly grew to super-human lengths as the plot thickened? Those were the days....
kek. You mad or something?
They should have just ended Arrow then. There's nothing left they didn't already do in those 2 seasons. Everything feels inflated and meaningless, like Dobson's political views. I'd be much happier if DC could put all of their efforts into one show that still has opportunity than keep like 4 shows where only half of them are actually any good
I don't think number of shows matters. It's not as if there's a finite amount of talent or something. The only person actively involved in all of them is Johns but he works with all adaptions stuff.
Also Moira "swimming pools for the poor" Queen
I kind of agree with him. The show is bad now but meaningless and inflated aren't two words I'd use to describe it. Maybe more that they were forced to deviate from certain plots and didn't have good enough backup plans.
Remember Ollie knowing those Russian mobsters? Doubt that will ever come up again.
It is meaningless. Flash and Legends have more clear cut goals and progression. Arrow is just meandering.
This last episode was a good example. "Hey rememember those league guys, yeah let's bring them back, but we don't want to deal with them, so let's disband them". Just reads like someone threw together a script in an hour.
That's aimless more than meaningless though. Like they're just going through the motions.
But that's TV for you. They have to keep going when it gets ratings that good in comparison to the rest of the network. You have to make the decision when to drop it for yourself personally. I don't think I've watched any show to the end because they all get shitty before they get cancelled.
How can it be aimless when they just brought it up now
Idk they might do something with it. Even if they don't that's not nearly on the same level as most of Arrow being aimless.
I'm not saying they're synonymous but it's obviously pretty much the same thing in the context I was talking about, you're splitting hairs.
>the whole "protect the city" stuff
Which I would consider both aimless and meaningless since it's just the same shit again.
Jay this season is a waste and they shouldn't have kept him around. Should have just introduced him and E2 to explain the multiverse then have Zoom and everyone come from E3.
>you're splitting hairs.
I thought we were having a discussion of word choice. Of course it's splitting hairs.
1. More screentime at the expense of better characters
2. Causes more drama and issues
3. Whines and cries a lot (see pic)
Basically they saw that a certain fanbase loved Felicity so they doubled down and altered the show to pander to them.
They wanted to give her more screentime because the fans liked her. But when they did that they dropped the part of her that was actually likable (normal person reacting to superhero shit) and had her steal Diggle's role as the voice of reason.
>I thought we were having a discussion of word choice.
No, we were having a discussion about Arrow. I'm not getting into a further autistic debate about words.
It's been like 1 episode though.
Yeah, for like 4 episodes and now she's right back to being shit.
>muh despair over being crippled that last 1 episode!
>muh marriage being more important than a city dying!
People only disagreed with your Arrow comment due to your word choice.
No, she's basically the same except she doesn't cry as much anymore. Last night was kind of tolerable in execution, I think they need to keep her away from the main plots. They could have cut down the time on her scenes a little though.
>People only disagreed with your Arrow comment due to your word choice.
I don't know who you're talking about but it's not me.
When her bitch mom found a ring, and then Felicity ran up to Oliver being all WHY DIDN'T YOU ASK ME TO MARRY YOU OLIBURRR and Oliver tried to explain that things were way too crazy to think about marriage right now and she still threw a fit.
Oh the mid-season finale i'll forgive that since the episode was based
That's the exception. The episode was directed by the fight coordinator (or something like that). The episode right before that had the same crappy fight sequences as the ones after it.
>He doesn't know how cancerous /arrow/ is
The worst part is how Ollie is now actively trying to find a way to avoid bloodshed yet his entire team is pushing him to go for the kill. The same people who never fail to remind him of his necksnapping phase in season 1/2.
Felicity egging him on to deliver the killing blow was disgusting.
Bad writing, and several episodes of her crying and bitching out Ollie, including when he first met his son and he has the audacity to not come running straight to her. Vandal Savage literally magic nuked Central City because of her nagging, causing Barry to time travel and recommending to Oliver that he shouldn't tell her crazy ass this time.
She's been okay the last few episodes, but they still can't resist throwing in a few lines here and there about how great she is. No, I'm not being hyperbolic, that's what actually happens.