So I was reading some backstory on The Loners mini-series by CB Cebulski where Mattie Franklin was one of the main characters. It featured a follow-up to the events of "Alias" where she got revenge on the dudes that used her as a MGH source and date raped her. Many people considered Mattie's characterization there to have redeemed her from the awful reboot in the spider-books back in the day.
Apparently editoral at Marvel liked the book and other creators wanted to use the characters from that story. As evident by Phil Urich and Darkhawk's later exposure. Along with the remaining team appearing in Avengers Academy.
Now according to Cebulski he wanted to use Mattie again and Marvel editorial told other creators to hold off using her until he got his plans together. But two years later she was instead fridged in Grim Hunt and it didn't impact the Jamesons. As a matter of fact the other Spider-Woman Julia got crapped on in that story as well. By erasing her personality, implanting Madame Web's, and taking up her worthless role.
So what happened that made Marvel editoral change their minds and shit on the Spider-Women not named Jessica Drew?
>As a matter of fact the other Spider-Woman Julia got crapped on in that story as well. By erasing her personality, implanting Madame Web's, and taking up her worthless role.
>We want a story about a female superhero as a mother
>Julia who? Just get Jessica pregnant!
He's not an actual Spider, just clones of a super-soldier with an Iron Spider suit. The symbiotes weren't involved either, it was those who would presumably be involved int he web of life.
She's a literal who that's not even a hero, killing her off in her only appearance since the 70s would have been completely pointless.
>Not an actual Spider.
Neither was Mattie. This was even pointed out in Grim Hunt.
>her only appearance since the 70s
I was referring to the one that appeared in the late-90s/early-2000s. You know, who was Madame Web's granddaughter and was left in a coma in her mansion which the Kravens raided?
I'm starting to think that Grim Hunt was less about telling a story and more about getting rid of characters.
That Spider-Woman is depowered.
Mattie Franklin also had explicitly spider-related powers by the time of her death thanks to absorbing the powers of the other Spider-Women.
Mattie really was just the least important person they could kill off without it being too forced.
>That Spider-Woman is depowered.
How would the Kravens know that? It's not like she could have told them with her being in a coma.
>Mattie Franklin also had explicitly spider-related powers by the time of her death thanks to absorbing the powers of the other Spider-Women.
She later lost those powers except for the spider-legs that were really just psionic energy.
>Mattie really was just the least important person they could kill off without it being too forced.
Oh it was pretty forced considering the reason why the Kravens captured her is because she was superheroing. The Loners established that Mattie had retired from being a superhero and only wore the costume that one time to get her revenge.
Don't think this was fair at all to Cebulski.
It's the circle of life OP
Mattie was killed to make Anya the only teen Spider chick
Anya was kicked out of 616 to make room for Silk and Spider-Gwen
I'm sure something horrible will happen to Silk sooner or later
Now that makes more sense. They should have at least have her death impact the Jamesons given what was shown in Alias about their relationship.
Ironically, Anya's Spider-Girl series only lasted 8 months while Mattie's lasted over a year.
I vaguely remember the previous thread.
Anyway, yeah, what happened to Mattie sucked. I kind of liked her, even when she was little more than another one of Byrne's fetish dolls that he'd dress up and have weird shit done to (pic related).
They did it to get to Spider-Man, who is the supposed center of the web or whatever, so he could be used to resurrect Kraven. Instead, they mistakenly killedKaine, who happens to be an impure (soul, mind, and body wise) version of Peter, making the entire family cut their losses, Cassandra Web's throat, kill Mattie, to drive Peter overr the edge so he'd be an easier target. Instead, he startedd hunting THEM (God I love when he does that), and Kraven wanted him to kill him so he could be put to rest.
Also, we got cool fucking Dishonored Corvo Parker over here from that. Shame the What If completely dropped the ball and went in a different direction. The last good What If was of The Other (which I ahem... ahem to be a fan of.).
So, in shot, Mattie was only killed to hurt Peter, not because she was a spider or anything.
>So, in shot, Mattie was only killed to hurt Peter, not because she was a spider or anything.
I don't think that concept was explored well at all though. She really should have been the Jason Todd(pre-red hood) of the spider-books instead of being forgotten afterwards.
She was JJJ's niece and adopted daughter. Thus was family to Peter since Aunt May and JJJ senior are married. That made Mattie Peter's step-cousin.
This also should have made JJJ hate for Spider-man personal. Since she was a fan of Spider-man and that's what got her killed.
JJ didn't give a shit she died. He never reacted to it.
The writers were more interested in killing off Marla and getting his reaction to that.
Mattie should come back as a villain or something
Yeah, did they not read Alias? They didn't have to kill Marla to create drama with Johan. Mattie's death had far potential for interesting drama with both him and Peter.
My guess is that Marvel editoral just told Joe Kelly to kill her off and he did zero research on her background.
>That made Mattie Peter's step-cousin.
>Mattie should come back as a villain or something
Wouldn't be very hard to do, seeing as how her powers were mystical in origin, and she was murdered as a part of a resurrection ritual.
Technically Anya's was 11 issues, with the Spider-Island tie-in that should have run in her normal series if it hadn't been cancelled.
There's "the point a series was cancelled" and "the practical point at which it stops being published because it's economical to use paid-for art and writing up to then".
>Spider-Man Writer No More!
To be honest his hateboner for Spider-Man was already strong after Marla died, bringing up a whole load of stuff about Mattie might well have been gilding the lily. I mean yeah, a shout-out for all three of her fans
myself includedwould have been nice, but to mention something like that and just never follow up on it, or to weirdly make this character's death super-important to both men even though she rarely appears in print, are both options that have specific problems and take up pages. Easier to never mention the connection.
She was already shit on through Alias, which was a series that was originally supposed to be about Jessica Drew (hence Jessica Jones is perhaps the laziest rewrite ever - pretty similar powers, pretty similar personal history with the coma and detective business, and so on) so the genesis of that Mattie Must Suffer idea probably came then, out of Bendis's love for what was, pre-New Avengers, a relatively obscure character. Ideas that make it into print in longer-running titles tend to stick; Mattie gets shit on in Grim Hunt because Mattie gets shit on. Like how Anya's parents and father figures keep dying; it's a motif.
To be honest, if Cebulski asked for her and didn't pitch a usable story idea in two years, she was fair game. The same happened with Jessica Drew after Alias was started: the original embargo on using her was lifted, so when Bendis was given the Avengers he was free to use her.
He can turn back into Man-Wolf again nowadays, as they've revealed that the Godstone inevitably regrows in him whenever it's removed or destroyed.
Marla's death happened after Mattie's. They pretty much didn't have to kill off Johan's wife for drama since Spider-man was indirectly responsible for his niece/adopted daughter's death. And Marla didn't show up that much either.
I don't think it would have mattered if Cebulski had a story or not. They were clearly just sidelining Spider-Women for Anya as evident by what happened to Julia. Marvel should have just kept the Mattie and Julia retired like they were before Grim Hunt.
As for Mattie being shit on in Alias. I would say that what happened there was far more respectful than what happened in Grim Hunt. As she was used as a parallel for the main character and it actually focused on her relationships.
Bendis also got flack from Byrne back when Alias was announced to have a sex scene in it. I kind of think Bendis used Mattie as sort of a response but also in a way that would be respectful as possible since he always enjoyed Byrne's comics back when he was just a reader, and Byrne would've gotten upset with any depiction anyway.
Grim Hunt was probably the most overrated BND story at any rate.
Seems pretty obvious that Marvel wanted to clean house to push Jessica hard.
Pretty ironic that the amount of attention required to seperate the old "problematic" Jessica into the new SJW friendly tone tanked pretty hard.
>I kind of think Bendis used Mattie as sort of a response
I thought that as well
>Grim Hunt was probably the most overrated BND story at any rate.
Yeah, Grim Hunt had a lot of major continuity errors. Such as that asspull of a wife(who would be killed and forgotten) instead of resurrecting Kraven's real lover Calypso who was into voodoo. There wasn't even a name drop.
I think it had less to do with Jessica and more to do with Anya. They stole Julia's costume to give it to her and killed Mattie to make her the only teen spider-chick. But this failed hard in the end.
Didn't the character who got resurrected (one of the Kravens) get killed at the end of that story anyway?
So she pretty much died for nothing. It's almost a textbook case of Women in Refrigerators.
Don't forget gave her Mayday's codename.
>It's almost a textbook case of Women in Refrigerators.
That is pretty much the case. Marvel doesn't mind having many Spider-men in the 616. But they want few Spider-Women.
Pretty fucking sexist.
Grim Hunt pissed me off for several reasons but turning Julia into the new Madame Web had to be one of the most pants-on-head retarded ideas I've seen come out of them.
Julia was an awesome character in her mini and Avengers West Coast and she wasn't even using the "Spider-Woman" name. There was no need to turn her into a shitty precog in the Spider-books.
What's with all the Mattie Franklin love lately? As of just a few months ago, I see her name keep popping up. Previous to that, she wasn't mentioned -anywhere-. And for good reason: she's easily the worst Spider-Person ever.
>fridged in Grim Hunt
Oh hi, tumblr!
Yeah, but when they were killing off Mattie they already knew what they had planned for Jonah.
I don't disagree that it would have added to Jonah's grief, but "my wife is dead" is an easier sell than "my best friend's adopted daughter who I adopted after he died who to be honest has always been a problem teen and a runaway died".
I don't think after 30 years of other Spider-Women you can really say "they could just stop here with these ones and just re-use them ad infinitum". Sure they could do that - but it was never really going to be what happened. Anya was just a progression that was started with Julia.
And I disagree about Cebulski; pitching a story is not a sure thing. You have to pitch something that is likely to sell and fits with the direction the wider setting is taking or is absolutely so great a story that it can stand on its own. Another Loners mini wouldn't have done better business than the first.
>Bendis also got flack from Byrne back when Alias was announced to have a sex scene in it
My irony meter just exploded.
This just doesn't ring true. Why bother killing Mattie on behalf of Anya's relaunch? It's not like anybody had even used her for what, five years?
And stop asking for those pictures of Anya in the /aco/ drawthreads, you weirdo.
Fridged is a term we've always used here, since long before tumblr existed.
The origin of the term comes from a Green Lantern story in which his girlfriend is murdered and left in his fridge for cheap pathos. It's the loss.jpg of comic books.
You've just described 90% of comic deaths outside of origin stories.
And a good chunk of all female heroes backgrounds are littered with random dudes dying on their behalf and it not changing a single thing.
>The origin of the term comes from a Green Lantern story in which his girlfriend is murdered and left in his fridge for cheap pathos. It's the loss.jpg of comic books.
Yeah, Gail Simone came up with the term. That's common knowledge. But you don't generally hear it, except when tumblirinas are bitching about "muh feminism!"
You know, kinda like what's happening here. Its Tumblr 101: Latch onto a character that no one gave a shit about in the first place (and for good reason) and then bitch and moan that they aren't getting the attention they deserve, you know, because le patriarchy has get those women down!
It sucks, since she'd actually be a pretty eat supporting character for Jess as both superhero & PI.
Has Cebulski ever mentioned what other plans he had for Mattie?
Iunno, Silk, now she's out of Slott's hands, seems to have actually developed into an interesting character.
I like how I think Breevoort said 'how often do YOU talk to your niece?' as justification for Jonah's apathy. Never mind that she'd gone missing once before and gotten in a lot of trouble, so you'd think if she dropped out of contact again JJJ would have gone to Defcon 1 to bring her back. Especially since Alias established he thought of her as the daughter he never had.
She wasn't even in that. And you're kidding yourself if even half the people who watched that even bothered to read Alias, even more so if even half of those people bothered to google who the fuck Mattie even is.
>my best friend's adopted daughter who I adopted after he died who to be honest has always been a problem teen and a runaway died
No, Mattie was Marla's biological niece(her sister's daughter).
According to Tom Brevoort they didn't have Jonah's reaction to Mattie's death because "she's just his niece" as he put it. He obviously didn't read Alias. Not to mention an relationship with one's uncle/aunt is a big part of the spider-mythos. Remember Uncle Ben and Aunt May? Dude is an idiot.
>Character created for the express purpose of pandering to vagina bearers
>Treated as a throwaway character by editors
Gee, what a shocker.
Maybe if you women went out and started creating your own characters and worlds, you might have something legitimate to complain about when they're unceremoniously killed off.
One would think, anyways.
If it wasn't true, then this thread wouldn't have been created in the first place.
You'd think Peter himself were killed off (again) with the way you cunts are carrying on about this literal nobody.
Byrne is the opposite of what you think he is. He was pandering to himself. And he's been blacklisted by Marvel for being one of the biggest jerks in comics, so yeah, they're going to not care if someone wants to shit over his ideas/characters.
>Created by jerkass writer who also wrote some stuf reimagining Spider-Man's early days
>Made for self-gratification/titillation
>Had potential for being a great character if given a good writer
The parallels between Silk & Mattie are bizarre, really. It's just a shame Mattie never really got a chance like Cindy's had.
>I see you don't know John Byrne at all.
Ironic, because that very statement seems to apply to you. Just because you can wiki the writer's name, doesn't mean you know anything about them.
>Both made out with Peter.
>Both are spider-women with connections to the spider-mythos unlike the other Spider-ladies.
>Had JJJ as a support character in their solo books.
Yeah, the parallels are crazy.
>Byrne is the opposite of what you think he is. He was pandering to himself.
Well, you can ask him yourself, on his own forum: http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/
Having no knowledge of Byrne going in should make things real fun.
The fuck are you on, nigga? The American Son story from Dark Reign was great.
Amazing Spider-Man Presents: American Son is what you're referring to. And that does suck. But its more a part 2 of the Dark Reign story, rather than a Sins Past follow up, despite having Gabriel Stacy.
>Previous to that, she wasn't mentioned -anywhere-.
I have found over 300 posts mentioning Mattie in the achieves.
>And for good reason: she is easily the worst Spider-Person ever.
No one is worse than Julia as Madame Web.
That diverges way way back from the main timeline, when Peter and MJ were married and hadn't chosen to erase that from history.
Jessica Drew. Either of them. Easily tied for worst just because they're pointless waifuism from Bendis.
Wasn't Mattie supposed to be almost Thor-tier powerful?
She got the power stone gift from the gathering of five story-line and I don't remember it being referenced that much. (I can understand Osborn not being mentioned because he already was insane before getting the insanity gift)
>worst Spider-Man ever written
>Not referring to OMD, OMIT or Superior
You just went full retard, anon.
>This just doesn't ring true. Why bother killing Mattie on behalf of Anya's relaunch? It's not like anybody had even used her for what, five years?
They used her two years prior to Anya becoming Spider-Girl. Creators were interested in using Mattie after The Loners. Anya would have been nothing special with Mattie being active.
No it wasn't. I remember reading interviews stating that it was a mini-series prior to its release.
Also, notice how every site calls it a mini-series with no mentioning of a cancellation.
>Originally debuting in the book Runaways under the name "Excelsior", the team later received their own limited series with an option to continue as an ongoing should sales be high enough, though this was not the case.
It's a half-right thing.
But nobody was using her, and presumably her appearance two years prior didn't set the world on fire.
Has it occurred to you that maybe a Loners reappearance was out of the question because Darkhawk went to space, and Mattie wasn't considered a viable solo character because her support network are all also superheroes?
>she was instead fridged in Grim Hunt and it didn't impact the Jamesons
Thank you for bringing that up OP. That pissed me off back then.
Jameson's fucking adoptive daughter fgs. Not even a mention . WTF.
>nobody was using her.
Of course not. Because Marvel had creators not use her and Ricochet until Cebulski got his plans together. Cebulski mentioned this himself.
>viable solo character
Didn't say they wanted to give her another solo. She would have likely been used as a support character in a story with Jessica in Avengers and/or Peter in his book since she has a history with those two.
Yeah, Jonah blames Spidey for every bad thing ever, and yet he says nothing when Mattie is killed by Spider-Man foes?
If they didn't want to deal with the consequences of her death, they should'nt have killed her at all. Madame Web could have been enough.
On Newsrama forums back in 2007 before the forum got removed.
Luckily, someone on Superhero Hype quoted the whole conversation during that time. You can found it on the "Official The Loners thread" on page 31.
>Probably because Slott hates everything Byrne did with Spidey and wants to bury it? IDK. Byrne/Mackie Spidey was a dark, dark age
> Grim Hunt
That was actually Joe Kelly, J.M. DeMatteis, Fred Van Lente who wrote that.
No, there was Mark Waid who did the follow-up which was wrapping up all the loose plot threads (Harry, Menance being pregnant, and the remaining villains who worked with the Kravens' for the Gauntlet).
Slott came on right after with Big Time which is when he reintroduced Marla only to kill her off a few issues later..
Mattie made an appearance in the dream Peter had about the people he couldn't save. That was written by Slott. For him to have show Peter mourn Mattie but not Johan is weird. He probably forgot about their relationship.
If we're talking about something Cebulski thought might happen as far back as 2007, then it was probably off as soon as the Spider-Man reboot happened and BND started. There was no indication back then that Bendis would ever leave Avengers and to be honest, I don't think anybody but Bendis was allowed to play with Jessica back then either. It wasn't until his run was over that she started appearing in other titles by different writers as a main character.
If Cebulski's intent was to have her as a supporting character in a Spider-Man story, BND would have been the best time to use her - since it wasn't one run by one author and it was trying out new stories at a rapid-fire pace. I guess the timing was off or the pitch wasn't compelling.
I still think it would just be confusing to non-experts in Spider-Man history to have to reintroduce Mattie properly just to explain that JJJ is angry about her death. It's not like Uncle Ben where you can rely on a short description of the scene now and then; who Mattie was and what the fairly complex relationships were between her and Spider-Man and JJJ requires a little more than "He was my father-figure" or "She was my wife".
Slott is brought his own supporting cast in that he created. The only regulars still are Harry, Liz, Normie, and JJJ. Everyone else is basically in other Spider Books.
I really do miss Norah. Shame Slott had Robbie fire her because she unknowingly fucked the Hobgoblin aka Phil Urich.