>Alright hold up for one second, we may have a differing view of how to treat superhumans but take into consideration that you are literally attempting to assassinate me and not doing your ideology very many favors; before the camera starts shaking again do you mind explaining why Steve is on your side in light of the fact that you are trying to murder people who disagree
But no one died from hulk.
Sebastian-kun already said this Bucky is a mix of BroBucky and HydraBucky, the stupid manlet brought a StarkWatch™ to a fight so Buck tried to pop his ass like the trained Hydra killer he was.
>HE'S JUST CONFUSED!
>STOP IT TONY HE'S MY FRIEND
>You will never motorboat those titties
I love how the Japs are obsessed with his boobs.
This should be final proof that RDJ being shoehorned into this movie and demanding more screentime means he's going to be made to look like the good guy who's just trying to do the right thing. Marvel sold out Cap.
The Hulk isn't the one shooting at Tony right that second, anon.
Your argument is that Tony's thoughts should be "You know, this guy is trying to shoot at me and that's kinda uncool...but I probably shouldn't try to stop him because I could have stopped the Hulk at this point."
So the plot of Civil War is basically 'dont kill my friend who murdered all these people!!!'
does nobody else see how fucking weak and terrible that is? Even when you dont compare it to the original book
Seriously though in what way arent they? I get that the government is also pushing to basically "own" the Superheroes but at this point AntMan is the only one who isnt already part of the government?
The whole thing is steve being unable to accept the fact that his friend has become a mass murderer.
Well, Bucky was brainwashed, so there's that. He probably feels like Bucky should be exonerated since Pierce and Hydra were brought down, so he won't be assassinating people anymore. It still feels stupid that they shoehorned a Civil War storyline into this when this would have been much better if it was just a Cap movie with maybe a minor roll by Stark.
Drunk driver argument. It doesn't matter if he had no control, he is still responsible.
"A drunk chooses tp drink, He didn't choose to become the winter soldier"
And he can have a parole for good behavior if he shows remorse.
>I get that the government is also pushing to basically "own" the Superheroes but at this point AntMan is the only one who isnt already part of the government?
The Avengers are currently independent of any government. They're like MSF and their operations are very illegal.
Yeah he looked real brainwash while he tried to shoot tony in the face in the new tv spot
But even with him being brainwashed it doesn't excuse his actions?? Like at all. Steve is legitimately the bad guy in this.
>Yeah he looked real brainwash while he tried to shoot tony in the face in the new tv spot
Yeah that shit was dumb. He's literally trying to shoot an unarmed Stark at point blank. Tony might be a dick, but Bucky and Steve just look like bad guys here. This is what I was afraid of when I heard RDJ was going to be in this, then it was revealed to be Civil War, then it was rumored that he was demanding more screen time. Marvel knows where their bread is buttered and they don't want audiences thinking their poster boy is evil, so they're making him into the reluctant antagonist people don't hate him after this movie is done. They don't give a shit about Cap.
I'm going to be pretty pissed if everyone just magnets to Cap like this annoying retard does
If they're going to make Tony be sympathetic at least have characters in universe be sympathetic to him as well, otherwise it just seems like a story with 1 sane person and an entire world of morons
>Tony might be the poster child of "ITT: 'villains who did nothing wrong'"
>He probably feels like Bucky should be exonerated since Pierce and Hydra were brought down, so he won't be assassinating people anymore.
That's not Caps call to make. He has no idea the extent of Bucky brainwashing. It may only take some sort of trigger before he's slaughtering politicians all over the place
They all saw Hawkeye be mind controlled. All they have is Buckys word that he's reformed. And considering he's an agent of Hydra, an organization that is known for being sneaky cunts it's idiocy to trust him
Yeahh, after leaving Hydra she honestly has nowhere else to go, so it makes sense she clings to the guy that helped her and her brother the most.
Same is probably for Antman. Clinging to the only guy he's met before.
The problem always with Civil War type stories is that in the Marvel Universe
Tony Stark's side of we should regulate this stuff is actually the correct point of view, so to justify him being in the wrong the thing to spark the incident has to be so egregious that it puts people against him.
>He isn't being taken in for due process, they want him dead
>The system of due process has proven to be corrupt in the first place
It'd really be corrupt if it justified the murder of Tony Stark for attempting to detain Stan
No, they rightfully would want a man like Bucky dead, but Steve is also right in laying down his life to fight for the soul of his best friend. Most people in this day and age don't really understand the bonds of brotherhood though
I have a feeling that Cap and Tony had a conversation where Tony probably said something along the lines of "We'll make an example out of Bucky" and Cap was like "Yeah, nah nigga"
I never got why people always thought registering was less like having a census and more like the first step before putting people in camps. Magneto thought that way because he was crazy with paranoia thanks to his childhood and trying to rationalize his war on humans, not because he was a well-balanced individual. If he didn't keep trying to genocide regular people every other week things like the sentinel program and random mutant incarceration would have never gained the public support in the first place.
They've already said that they've given the kill order on Bucky from the beginning. He's an extremely dangerous and unstable weapon of Hydra that they want eliminated. Nobody but Steve has a reason to fight for him, but that's what makes Steve a great character. He will put himself at odds against the entire world to do what he knows is right, like saving his brother from execution. They're with each other til the end of the line
The difference is, despite what Hitler said, Jews didn't actually have the power to destroy all of Germany any time they wanted. Also if you're arguing that governments only want people to register so that they can hunt you down, how do you feel about Driver's Licenses and the census?
>that's what makes Steve a great character. He will put himself at odds against the entire world to do what he knows is right
Someone post the Red Skull "you move" edit
I think his problem is that he's barely even a character at this point - He's basically just an extension of Cap that does whatever Cap wants and doesn't really have motivations, opinions, or personality of his own.
>He will put himself at odds against the entire world to do what he *thinks* is right
It's not blind idealism to fight for the life of your brother who's been with you through the death of both of your parents, who you fought a war side by side with. Red Skull could absolutely use the same speech, and he simply would be met by Captain America as his opposing force, and they would determine who is right through their conflict. People like you have no ideals and would sacrifice anything you believe in and any person you love with pressure from the collective.
He's a loyal sidekick anon. It's the point of the character. People seriously barely understand what these characters are meant to be anymore and it's ridiculous. Where do you get your skewed perspectives on things?
>It's not blind idealism to fight for the life of your brother who's been with you through the death of both of your parents, who you fought a war side by side with
That's not what I was referring to
>Red Skull could absolutely use the same speech, and he simply would be met by Captain America as his opposing force, and they would determine who is right through their conflict.
Except Red Skull is very clearly wrong and Cap is almost always right in every scenario they meet, that doesn't mean that their psychologies aren't completely braindead
>People like you have no ideals and would sacrifice anything you believe in and any person you love with pressure from the collective.
There is literally zero, not even one true thing that you've said with this sentence
But none of these people were born like this. They all took it upon themselves to be Superhuman. You would have a point if were talking about mutants, and I would agree with you, but we're talking about people who choose this life
>Red Skull could absolutely use the same speech, and he simply would be met by Captain America as his opposing force, and they would determine who is right through their conflict.
I didn't know that you browsed /co/, Senator.
I don't see it as a flaw to lay down your life for your loved ones and for what you believe in. People like you would surrender anything so a quiet, mundane status quo could be maintained. People often just get mad seeing humble and virtuous men like Steve Rogers and Superman, growing to resent them and developing a desire to tear down these symbols of honor
>have to register for existing
But that's not what's happening at all.
It's about the Avengers not being allowed to fight as a private army and ignore all international law. They just can't go around shooting up people around the world anymore.
It's not a brain dead psychology at all, you've just been trained to rebel against true virtue and authority. You can't reach the ideal Steve Rogers can, so it must be a lie, it must be stupid and wrong. And eventually, it must be destroyed. You probably don't even believe good and evil actually exist.
Yes, they must only be allowed to do it as pawns of one of the governments already proven to be corrupt and do the exact same shit time and time again. But somehow instead of just Captain America leading this team, it would be better to have it in the hands of the fucking bureaucracy of politicians that are already bleeding the world dry. You're fighting on the side of the soccer moms who want to make the whole world the suburbs right now
What are you even talking about here? Unflinching idealism is never a good thing unless you have a really basic "ideal" that completely adheres to human rights. If your ideal is "help people avoid pain" or just a simple "promote hedonism" then that's fine. If it's "never ever let X die in any circumstance," at some point when you're met with a scenario where carrying out your ideal causes you to be a less morally upstanding person, you're a detriment.
And you seem to think that my suggesting that adhering to an ideal like Cap's ultraboner for Bucky equates to me saying all ideals are bad, which I haven't stated once. I'm just saying that blind idealism is a dumb way of looking at the world.
So what you're saying is that Steve Rogers could never do anything wrong, and that him imposing his will upon others (what you refer to as authority) with 0 checks or accountability could never have any negative consequences?
You're not arguing that Cap is a good man, you're arguing that he isn't human.
Absolutely. Elections are mob rule at best, and at worst a shame for the ruling elites who buy figure heads as puppets. The common people of the world are no more virtuous then these elites themselves. They have no conception of morality or justice. This authority needs to be in the hands of a select group of unique individuals that have proven themselves worthy of it like Captain America has. I'd rather have dozens of unchecked superheroes in the world than a cabal of government agents working at the behest of corrupt politicians. All you're fighting for is total assimilation to the collective.
No one should have absolute authority, including the Avengers. They are not infallible - An entire country was destroyed and the world almost ended because one of them made a bad call.
Your perspective is skewed because you're looking at this from the perspective of the audience, who has been following Cap as the main character and identifying with him. In-universe, giving him a free pass to do anything he chooses with no legal intervention is fucking insane, and more important sets a disastrous precedent.
It's only you that's understanding ideals as vague generalities. I'm suggesting that men with true authority shouldn't submit their power to the hands of lesser men who would abuse it. You take blind submission to the government and "the people" as a virtue, but it isn't. It's Slave morality.
I'll be really interested to see the true context of this scene. Has Bucky been recalibrated or given a trigger phrase? Is he in his right mind but there's a fatal misunderstanding? He might even think Tony is HYDRA, given the history of Stark Tech and Obadiah Stane's control.
What we know: Tony has been involved in some very shady shit and brings a lot of trouble on himself and the entire world. He's been *told* to answer for it, but never has because he's rich and powerful. It weighs on his mind, though, because he does want to be a good guy and is stumbling toward the path of the hero with good intentions. He's not malicious.
We also know: Bucky was a good guy who spent years fighting HYDRA with Cap as both a close friend and fellow soldier. He was captured and tortured by the very group he was trying to destroy (more than once!) and forced to serve them. Imprisoned, dehumanized, experimented on, drugged, and had his brain fried on the regular -- extra when he expressed any independent thought -- for 70 years. When you think about it, it's some of the darkest shit by far in the MCU. And we still see him resisting HYDRA conditioning multiple times, and they're probably hunting him now that he's gone AWOL. He has every reason to be paranoid and PTSD as fuck.
No way do either of these guys want to casually murder people. Either one of them is not in their right mind, or things are not what they seem. I'm guessing the latter -- they're not bad guys, they're guys with high stakes and bad intel.
Who grants this authority to the superheros? Who determines who is and isn't virtuous? In your system, you're basically just arguing that the strongest rule over all the untermensch.
Congratulations you've just justified Supes' character in Red Son.
>you've just been trained to rebel against true virtue and authority. You can't reach the ideal Steve Rogers can, so it must be a lie, it must be stupid and wrong
Sounds like something Hitler would say at a fucking rally. Just replace Steve Rodgers with "The Aryan"
Captain America opposed Ultron from the beginning and was the one to end it. If Tony wanted to quit the Avengers, take all of his resources and funding and fold himself into the military with War Machine, he has every right to do so. But he crosses the line when he tries to impose this decision upon the others. Steve did nothing wrong and has no reason to conform the way Tony has. The panicking mobs of the people and the corrupt politicians should be disregarded
So what is it about these select individuals that exempts them from public authorization and scrutiny, then? What makes them more capable of evaluating morality and justice than the will of the collective?
Imagine if Captain America started bombing abortion clinics because he thought it was systemic murder on par with the Holocaust. Imagine any of them having some extreme political opinion, and the power and "moral backbone" to act upon it.
It's all fine and good when the unassailable cabal of superhumans fights for what you believe, but the problem is they're not going to. They fight for what THEY believe. I'm not that much of a fascist hero worshiper to abide by that.
>It's only you that's understanding ideals as vague generalities.
My entire point is that when they go above that, they can get scary (and even when they don't sometimes).
>I'm suggesting that men with true authority shouldn't submit their power to the hands of lesser men who would abuse it. You take blind submission to the government and "the people" as a virtue, but it isn't. It's Slave morality.
Absolutely nothing I've said even remotely suggests that I take "the people" or "the government" above all in judging a scenario (though as a utilitarian I guess "the people" would describe my views in a different context). I'm stating that the "no u move :(((" psychology that Steve has is moronic and is a dangerous ideal to have. The only reason people are fooled into thinking it's sane is because Cap is written by people who want to make him the protagonist of the story. Applying blind idealism to moral judgements instead of evaluating the particular context of a scenario with additional viewpoints and a digestible thought process is what you're seriously, seriously advocating here. Take a step back and realize that your fictional hero has the same thought process as his villain.
Your argument has literally boiled down to "God's Will shall determine who is truly just, and grant them the strength to rule others."
I take back what I said. You haven't justified Superman in Red Son, you've justified colonialism and slavery.
It's something a warrior aristocrat would say, and before the era of the French Revolution would have been a thought held with no apprehension
I'm sorry to break it to you, but Nietzschean ideals are what superheroes are built upon.
What gives the public this authority you speak of or gives them the right to scrutinize those who are greater than them and have saved them countless times? What makes you think the public has any true conception of morality to begin with when all of the human experience would tell you otherwise? The public has no authority other than violent mob rule
>I'm sorry to break it to you, but Nietzschean ideals are what superheroes are built upon.
No, not necessarily
And you'd better not be attempting to slap the Ubermensche = Superman argument here, because the allegory has superficial-at-best connotations for Supes
My argument is how all conflicts in human history have been determined. We can proselytize our ideals and virtues all we want, but in the end who is right will be determined by who emerges when these opposing views clash against one another
>What gives the public this authority you speak of or gives them the right to scrutinize those who are greater than them and have saved them countless times
Holy hell man, the entire point is NOTHING, and it's literally, LITERALLY a fallacy to say the people or Steve inherently have the power of judgement due to "authority"
You should not be looking to an authority alone for judgement (though it may have rational points which could guide a judgement- but that's independent of its authoritative status). You should be evaluating a situation with all the data you can find
>It's not blind idealism to fight for the life of your brother who's been with you through the death of both of your parents, who you fought a war side by side with.
It is if that brother is responsible for the deaths of innocents.
>everyone's going to act retarded for this movie
>won't get explained away as NANOMACHINES SON.
All you're suggesting is submission to the government, in the very specific context of this scenerio. You're suggesting Steve surrender his ideals and his brother because the bureaucracy demanded it. You can try to convince yourself that you're simply considering all points of view and trying to compromise, but all you're actually doing is considering surrender. There is nothing that you hold sacred that you wouldn't offer up as sacrifice to your enemies
>What gives the public this authority
The public is the entity that is being saved/protected/served. Superheroism is a service, much like any other, which means that the party being serviced has final say about how the service is carried out. After all, without a public to protect, the superhero has nothing.
>All you're suggesting is submission to the government, in the very specific context of this scenerio
What scenario? The specific context, the thing that I'm arguing about with you is whether or not blind idealism is a retarded psychology to have.
>the rest of your post
No, my argument is my argument and not whatever you want me to say my man
I think they don't want to publicize him too much when his is just a small supporting role, possibly just a glorified cameo, otherwise people would get all hype and get dissapointed, and claim false advertising.
>the concept of a hero is though
It's literally as superficial as that
A person with superpowers that saves people. That doesn't mean all heroes are Nietzchean. The main man Supes couldn't be further from the Ubermensche- he's a guy who trusts humanity to evolve on its own path but just wants to placate threats which endanger the species' existence. Completely conflicting with the hypothetical Super man that exists to bring in a new standard for humans
That's a sense of narcissistic entitlement on the side of the people. It's slave morality, wishing to see great men dragged into their collective. They are being saved, but they are still ignorant followers who have no real authority and no conception of virtue or justice. Steve has proven himself virtuous and worthy of his authority, the masses have proven the opposite.
They are a conquered people yes. The fact that they were destroyed and scattered doesn't make them virtuous. That's just your conception of slave morality telling you that what is weak and helpless is good, and what is strong and authoritarian is evil. You must always align yourself with the perceived victim
That's irrelevant to what I'm saying and you're taking the argument from "Caps psychology is bad" to "is Cap in the right here" so good jo-
Damn, it took me a while to realize but I now understand that you're merely pretending to be retarded
I'm not saying that all Native Americans were good people, I'm saying that there was no moral justification for killing them all. I think if you honestly disagree with that sentiment, you need to take a step back and look at your worldview. Your argument up to now has been "might makes right" in every sense, and therefor would see the expansion into the West along with the extermination of millions of people through genocide and biological warfare as acceptable.
Thus the whole marketing of teamcap or teamironman and such. Don't think it through too much or you'll ask why they don't compromise, bring Bucky into some neutral-ish location like Wakanda until they can be sure he's free of his brainwashing and make some sort of deal so he goes away for some time but has a good chance at being released in the near future and shit.
Course Hydra's probably trying to keep any kind of negotiations from happening too perhaps.
It's a mark of someone who has nothing to say to label his opponent stupid or "retarded". You're neglecting to see how your belief that this system of regulation even having the slightest chance of working without becoming immediately corrupt and abused is a greater expression of blind idealism than anything I've said. You've failed to explain how registration wouldn't just put the authority of these heroes in more dangerous hands, or at best place arbitrary restrictions on the for the comfort of politicians and soccer moms who demand a false sense of control over the world
It's like the first trailer to Winter Soldier, where Fury shows Cap the Helicarriers and says "We’re going to neutralize a lot of threats before they even happen" to which Cap replies "I thought the punishment usually followed the crime" and "This isn't freedom, this is Fear!"
The way that looked in the trailer, was that SHIELD had made a new fleet of Helicarriers and were going to start being pro-active about stopping terrorists, bad guys and shit. It made Cap look like a he was saying that they should wait for shit to happen before they go after bad guys.
But then it turned out that Project Insight basically involved shooting people from long range based upon a DNA match and SHIELD's best guess as to whether or not they were "bad". And not only that, Fury was not entirely convinced that it was a good idea.
There will be some scenes not seen in the trailer that change a lot of contexts of scenes from the trailer, like maby when the kill order comes through for Bucky, Steve tries to reason with Tony and convince him that he wasn't in control of his actions, like Hawkeye in Avengers 1 or Hulk in Avengers 1 and 2 and that they should bring him in alive, but Tony doesn't care. Maby the scene with Bucky trying to shoot Tony is while Tony's having a metting with Zemo, who Bucky recognizes and tries to shoot, but Tony intervenes
All you can do is look at the world as the way you think it should be and lament the fact that reality does not align with it. You're incapable of taking in the human experience as the tragedy that it is and accepting the suffering that is a part of it inherently.
I'm pretty sure you're trolling, but Barnes never decided to murder people. He was never allowed to decide anything, and forced into compliance to an extreme degree. Handlers like Pierce are the ones with the intent murder people AND torture Bucky into mindlessly serving as the weapon.
Bucky is also one of Hydra's victims, and to force him to answer for their crimes is not only illogical and unjust, but cruel. Unfortunately only Steve knows the man under the machine.
There's that I guess, well I don't think they've quite confirmed that yet though. Still Stark isn't unfamiliar with brain washing, don't think he blames Banner for Hulk destroying another city and stuff.
How would that save them money? At this point I Think the actors all want more screentime, RDJ doesn't like doing the in-helmet stuff because it's all recorded afterwards when he's tired as shit and he's just alone with a bucket on his head or something.
Stop making assumptions about a scene that was obviously sloppily edited for trailer purposes, we don't know who he was trying to shoot or why Tony grabs the gun from him and why he pulled the trigger.
But OK I'll start assuming too.
Bucky is dangerous and a threat, the guy is a mess and he just barely shook up the Winter Soldier programming and from what one of the suppose spoiler leaks said
he's going around murdering HYDRA membersnot to mention he is also getting chased by HYDRA which means that just about anyone doing anything aggressive or doing something like reaching for Bucky's weapon might get seen as a threat to him and for all Bucky knows Tony is out to kill him too.
So far from what I've gathered in the trailers and from EW interviews Steve's main beef with Tony's side is that they are chasing Bucky to either to kill him or take him in and use him for their own purposes, he's obviously not OK with them doing that.
And Steve is on the right to be wary of them, the Winter Soldier killed Tony's parents and shit will be personal to him and I bet he won't have any mercy for Bucky, General Ross has history of experimenting on prisoners and creating Abomination, Zemo (although unknown to everyone) is from fucking HYDRA and hell him alone is enough to justify Steve of being distrustful of Tony's side taking Bucky in, then there's the shady as fuck World Council who along with SHIELD got BTFOed by HYDRA.
The smart thing to do is to appoint Steve and Sam as Bucky's handler and give them certain terms and conditions as to what Bucky can or can't do unsupervised and for Bucky to get some therapy and then Steve would most likely comply with the Sokova Accords, but obviously Tony and his side don't have any desire to help Bucky at all.
I don't think they're paid for how much screentime they have, and fuck I would imagine they would want to appear more if possible, most of the actors seem to love being in the MCU and others are trying to get into the DCEU, unless they're just assholes like the dude that was supposed to be War Machine.
>And he can have a parole for good behavior if he shows remorse.
The difference is that Bucky is not even going to get the benefit of a trial, especially since there are people on Tony's side who want him either dead or want to use him as their weapon.
Not to mention Baron fucking Zemo already infiltrated Tony's side.
Yeah, Natasha probably did as much shit as Bucky did. You'd think if anyone would have some empathy for a conditioned, manipulated spy-assassin it'd be the one that went through bullshit conditioning herself.
That might be for the point of them trying to be more accountable and such. She wasn't exactly happy about Cap trying to find Bucky to begin with. The heck does Vision even care about Bucky for example.
More like "Don't take my friend who was abused, tortured and brainwashed by a terrorist organization into doing their bidding without a proper trial and proper help and with your shitty intentions of also doing the same to him" also do people keep forgetting that Zemo is with the people that Team Tony is working with?
It just seems a bit weird that a group of heroes that has been very accepting of redemption sob stories gets divided with Bucky.
I mean literally nobody in the previous movies even implies BW should pay for her crimes.
I understand it's personal more than anything here but it makes them look like huge hypocrites.
It's a cute ideal, but it fails when it meets the reality of the human experience. You might as well of just handed me a finger painting of people from all nations holding hands encircling the earth. It's the lowest order of thinking for men who have no real belief in anything or true understanding of philosophical ideals.
>what if we all just got along guys?
You are the person who makes the most sense in this thread.
>I'll be really interested to see the true context of this scene. Has Bucky been recalibrated or given a trigger phrase?
Wasn't the codename for this film Sputnik? In the comics Winter Soldier's shutdown phrase was Sputnik so it could be that it's his trigger phrase in this movie.
Also in the comics Sharon Carter gets brainwashed by Faustus and shoots Steve after Crossbones snipes him which is what kills Steve (I am ignoring the time bullet BS) so maybe they will do something similar with Zemo and Bucky.
Trailers lie a lot so yeah people making hasty assumptions out of them is kind of dumb but I guess we don't have much info about what exactly will go down in the movie so it's one of the few things people can actually do for discussion.
Except Bucky did it unknowingly, also if Wolverine forgave him about being brainwashed into murdering his Asian waifu in the comics then everyone else can.
Oh yeah and thanks for the shit posting.
>god told me to do it
>literally the same thing muslims say
Saying we can trust the Avengers because only one of them did the bad thing and is now gone is equivalent to saying we can trust the government because only some of them did a bad thing and are now gone.
What. There's nothing idealistic about basic cooperation, it's how our all damn society works.
And it certainly doesnt mean we can all "get along", you can cooperate with people you despise.
You're way too pretentious for your britches anon. You talk like Eisenberg Luthor.
Honestly if saving Bucky meant being dropped to a desert planet just the two of them and no one else, to live the end of their days, then yes he would accept.
In the comics he even at some point says he is willing to run off with Bucky, fake their deaths, and live as hobos if it meant keeping him safe.
It's obvious theres going to be someone who triggers Buckys murder mode on Stark, even though he's been good up to that point on. Hell they might have even been fine with Bucky joining up with them up until that moment.
Because RED IN MUH LEDGER.
But really I think she gets a hearing or a trial of some sorts during the end of TWS after she leaks all of SHIELD's info.
That said Bucky would not get the benefit of having a trial.
>Trailers lie a lot so yeah people making hasty assumptions out of them is kind of dumb but I guess we don't have much info about what exactly will go down in the movie so it's one of the few things people can actually do for discussion.
It's kind of inevitable for a movie like this with a lot of buzz, speculating about it more won't make it come quicker. The only alternative is just to not pay attention to trailers and publicity and only discuss the movie after it comes out and you've seen it.
>It is if that brother is responsible for the deaths of innocents.
Bucky will answer for being responsible for the death of innocents the winter soldier murdered when Stark answers being responsible for the death he caused with his weapons.
Bucky will stand trial and answer for the murder of Stark's parents when Tony does the same for Wanda's parents.
But that's wrong anon. 99%/of everything you do is dependant on others cooperating.
The decision making/driving force is a separate question, and even then collectives have a lot more say than you seem to think.
She's probably got a bit of leeway due to saving the world from aliens.
Under a very specific ideology and lead by the authority of a select few. They cooperate to fulfill the vision of someone outside of them.
The totality of our existence in this place throughout time and our place in the cosmos. It is our continuation of what our progenitors experienced
You know that if Bucky ends up captured on Tony's side then HYDRA gets their Winter Soldier back not to mention the incompetent government and world council get fucked by HYDRA again.
I mean Zemo is already there.
>You still have an adolescent fantasy of what the human experience is
Most cooperation comes from within inclusive groups in conflict with other groups in support of their own vested interests. Cooperation is literally driven by conflict with others.
>Under a very specific ideology and lead by the authority of a select few.
Even governments generally cooperate with each other. They respect each others boundaries and trade with another, and wars are the exception that make up a tiny fraction of these interactions.
and according to you -or at least to your posts-, the human experience sums up to 'people are either sheep or the selected few who herd them so everything is shit, so why even bother'?
This is nothing like being a drunk driver dumbass. The only "crime" Bucky committed was falling off a fucking train in World War II. He had no say in anything that happened after that.
That would be the perfect conclusion but like I said there is no way Tony's side would let Bucky get the benefit of a trial and Tony has never been held accountable for all the shit that he has done.
And Tony's side is already hypocritical, it has General Ross and Zemo in it.
Excluding Bucky, the worst person on Steve's side is Scott and he only stole shit and got to do the time for it.
Depends on if you understand that contrasting concepts define each other to such a degree that they actually cannot exist without one another. We could not understand cooperation without understanding conflict
The common goal is mutual benefit through trade, and thus (barring some other event) has no reason to end.
It comes down to the prisoner's dilemma - Things would be best for everyone if both sides cooperated, but fear of the other side backstabbing you is making you both squabble and result in no one getting what they want.
Individualism. Trying to get more for yourself and/or your group. This can (but doesn't have to) create conflicts.
Fact being, even if 2 groups share an ideology, they can definitely still be in conflict if their individual interests collide.
This is where your idealism that the system works crashes and burns against the reality of the human experience, as in this trade partnership one will always come out to have power over the other. Shortly after we will have conflict
Right. Do you understand that concepts are representations of the world and not the world itself?
Something can definitely exist without its opposite existing.
Also conflict and cooperation arent antonyms anyway.
Yes he did. She also likely killed the daughter of someone named Drakov. And then she closed a portal opened by an Asgardian god made to take over the planet using an ALIEN ARMY. The governments of the world will be less likely to try to take down someone like that than someone who they know has done nothing but assassinate important figures for decades.
Not to mention Scott gives me the vibe that he's an anti-establishment type of guy especially with the whole VistaCorp thing and judging from that interview with Christine Everhart, he doesn't seem that fond of Tony.
>Christine: Believe me you are no Tony Stark
>Scott: Thank God.
As opposed to how far we get with all the other scintillating conversations we have on /co/? Don't come here unless you hust want to talk openly about stuff without having any real agenda. It's kind of the whole point. Do you come here with an itinerary or something? We aren't supposed to be going anywhere
In this specific case anyway I don't see how it could be that. It's just a statement of fact that is either true or false. "Individualism has been a driving force for people" I would put in the same category of statements as "Capitalism has been a driving force in the western world". "Capitalism has been a driving force in the western world" is not itself an ideology, it's a statement that's either true or false.
or, is either true or false in your opinion, depending on your view on relativism/truth, but I'm not getting in to that so w/eHeck, I'd maybe put "Capitalism exists" in the same category of statement. I'm just a simple bumpkin who butted in to this conversation, I'm not usually confident on my opinions on such stuff, but that's my perspective on it.
I know nothing of the true world. Only how I perceive it. Plato's cavern and all that.
I don't have to understand something for it to exist.
Can't we just talk about the damn movie though?
we can only discuss it by posting about it, and only stop discussing another thing by deciding to stop posting about it. There's not really much we can discuss by now before it's out, except a few small details from trailers which may be misleading anyway.
He's seriously created every single major problem he's faced so far besides Loki, and even in that using his giant arc reactor he built in the middle of New York was key to Lokis plan. He's like fucking Cat in the Hat, just fucking things up everywhere he goes then cleaning up his disastrous mess
Not exactly, though it's not the easiest to tell since it's a trailer with quick cuts. I would guess he had the glove activating out of Bucky's sight as he's walking up and doesn't have the gun drawn yet, probably when Bucky pulls the gun he tries to grab it with his left hand to direct it at his right, admittedly Bucky could still pull the trigger anytime in that process, but dunno how hard you want to analyze it and shit it happens in about a second or two, and he's wearing the same clothes that he has on when Cap is interrogating him in the earlier trailers and such so maybe he's half out of his brainwashing.
Everybody who watches these trailers outright ignores the fact that this is a lynch mob after Bucky, and the clear lack of due process is exactly why Steve is against it. It's simply un-American.
That's the issue, why bother getting within inches of Tony when you have a gun in the first place? Also from the cuts it looked like he saw the gun, activated the hand, then grabbed it, not that they both armed themselves while Bucky inexplicably walked within grabbing distance to THEN fire. Not seeing the seconds proceeding I guess it could be the latter, but that's still doesn't seem like a world class assassin move.
Reminder that forced registration of people for reasons beyond their control is almost certainly a breach of their rights and would probably not fly in any court anywhere due to the precedent it would set
That didn't stop Guantanamo and it doesn't stop big brother type spying.
If someone is a potential large threat to security (which most metahumans are), you better believe that takes precedence over silly individual freedoms.
I'd definitely be pro-reg irl, the consequences of unbridled superpeople running around without any knowledge of who they are is terrifying. Yeah it's unfair as fuck, but that's how shit is.
They'd treat it the same way they treat guns, powered people possess weapons so they must either register them or since most can't actually give away their powers they'd say it's illegal weapons and they must be arrested.
"Well, I made some mistakes. Gave terrorists all kinds of superweapons, made a genocidal killer robot, etc. Clearly I have done things wrong, so to prove I can change and I won't always be a screw up, I will help by making sure others with that kind of powers are regulated so no more global disaster comes forth from them doing whatever they want without supervision and making mistakes."
IRL I would totally think superhumans should be registered (but not made into government agents that have to follow orders.), however in the MCU the government is apparently full of Hydra, Ten Rings and other infiltrators, so I wouldn't trust them either.
Not really since none of the people concerned possess the ability to end life on earth with a mere thought. There's a bit of a difference in scale here.
Just saying something being illegal has never stopped governments before.
>Good deeds don't excuse past bad deeds though.
You punish them for their bad deeds and reward them for their good. Heroic acts don't wash clean the villainous ones.
There's no evidence to suggest that they'd start locking up all the supers just for having powers. Wanting to register them is fine, just like registering gun owners. It lets you know that the person registered is more likely to use it responsibly, not to rob banks or do drive by shootings. Remember that hero registration isn't the same thing as mutant registration in the marvel world, where the latter for some reason always leads to Sentinels, horrid experiments on people, and death camps. It's more about making sure that if some spandex guy threw a car at a bad guy but missed and hit your grandma he'd be held responsible for it, and not just some masked asshole that gets away with it because no-one knows who he really is.
So what's going on here?
Flashback scene or is this how the government is keeping Bucky after capturing him? Maybe Cap is the one to break him out.
>Tony pushing to get out of the super hero game, to pass the torch to someone else, as he becomes more and more frightened of the power that he, and his fellow Avengers, wield.
>Fucks up with Ultron, but the end goal of that was still that the power would be out of his hands.
Did... did you watch the same movies I did?
Do people not remember Bucky with his arm in a clamp at the end of Ant Man?
He's obviously being remote controlled, or the arm has some kind of chip in it.
Goddamn, this shit is simple.
I still have a theory that Bucky actually wanted to shoot Zemo or someone he recognized from HYDRA and Tony just wanted to stop him in that scene.
That's why he got so close to Tony, because the person he actually wanted to shoot was far away.
If you look closer, Bucky's arm was pointed somewhere else and Tony grabbed him and pointed it to him.
Bucky also looks surprised.
This. Bucky is pointing the gun at someone else, Stark grabs it and point it towards himself to stop the bullet with his smartwatch glove, Bucky fires while the gun is pointing at Stark's face, much to his surprise.
Also Bucky is clearly being controlled in this scene.
That scene probably happens after this, when Cap surrenders and goes with the police to meet Ross and Stark and talk about the registration.
Bucky has the same outfit.
Starl wears the same suit as in that gif.
So Bucky goes with Cap and meets Starl and Ross and probably sees someone from HYDRA with all the politicians there. Tries to shoot him, Stark stops him and wants to arrest him, Bucky and Cap escape. Cap goes with him because he trusts Bucky when he says HYDRA people are there, Stark probably thinks he's insane and doesn't believe him.
That looks like a tense standoff deal, not an attempted assasination. Bucky's just kind of standing there at the beginning of it. The vibe I get is that Bucky's standing there with the gun pointed at him feeding us plot and looking pouty, RDJ gets fed up with not being in the spotlight, tells him to put the gun down or something. He doesn't, so RDJ does a bitchin' glove move and grabs the gun from him and Bucky fires it when he goes for it, which just shows us how gosh-darned on-edge he is right now.
Nobody gets hurt, but the audience just gets to see how high the stakes are and it turns out they're really high?
Nah, did you watch IM2? MCU Tony used to think his dad hated him, but then conveniently found a tape with his dad explaining him 'btw I've always loved you' which made him appreciate his dad more.
If Bucky wasn't a lunatic here is what would happen.
>Lets himself get taken in and explains everything.
>US would get Steve Rodgers to ask questions only Bucky would know the answer to, they would compare photographs (which they have) or DNA testing the corpses of his parents or any living relatives to see if its really Bucky and maybe take a look at THE VIBRANIUM ARM and the fact that despite being 90 years old he has the body of a young man. Bucky could tell them where to find the equipment used to brainwash him (we see it in the Ant-Man stinger.)
>Instead he decides to try and murder Tony Stark, for wanting to bring him in
>Are we supposed to believe that Cap is going to side with a guy who tried to murder Tony Stark?
Yeah, he was still a neglectful father, but Tony was shown to be more at peace with himself after he got that message. MCU Tony is also never shown directly hating Howard, he has daddy issues, sure, but they seem to be focused around the idea that his dad did not appreciate or want him.
Are you implying Bucky, a trained super assassin, is so poor at handling a gun he would accidentally unload it in a person's face because they grabbed it?
He is clearly being controlled though.
He has a bigass chip on his shoulder regarding Cap though, because of those daddy issues and how Howard gave Steve the approval he never had. Probably wouldn't be so quick to jump on Bucky if he wasn't looking for an excuse to fight Cap.
its not like being taken in would led him to be question and not transferred to another HYDRA cell to be reconfigured again. The security and intelligence of any government is proven to be...lacking.
>the sokovia accords literally only apply to the original avengers
>it has nothing to do with registration, it just places the Avengers undet control of the UN instead of the now-defunct SHIELD
>but muh Bucky so I fight you Iron Fascist!
Way to fuck up your own story, marvel.
>Iron Man 3
>Where is Cap and the other Avengers??!
>WHY AREN'T THEY HELPING TONY!!??
>Captain America: Winter Soldier
>Where is Iron Man and the other Avengers??!
>WHY AREN'T THEY HELPING CAP??!
>Captain America: Civil War.
>WHY ARE THE OTHER AVENGERS AND IRON MAN THERE???!
Based on every Marvel movie RDJ is in. Turns into the usual witty humor during action scenes and the fact that Iron Man is their Batman. He'll never lose and never be wrong (even when he was clearly wrong in AOU).
Well I was never someone who bitched about IM3 and Cap2
Why weren't they helping Tony in IM3 though?
His Malibu home getting blown up was live on the news, the president was taken hostage, a big terrorist villain was threatening America, and Iron Man is the only Avenger to do something about it?
Makes more sense in WS, since most of what happened in the movie was kept under wraps from the public.
So, all the toys for Giant Man are being kept under wraps, so he'll probably be this trailers money shot.
Will these mad men actually not get a deal with Sony to show Spidey until the movie releases?
>treating Rhodey like a porch negro accessory for Stark
Jessica Jones had a civ cry that she watched a chunk of a building fall and crush her mother. Could've been aliens, could've been Hulk.
Also the 3 Brazilians from the second movie that chased him into a factory to give him a beating.
But isn't the whole point of AOU that he's wrong? He was fucking wrong and he ended up destroying a whole country because of it.
That movie shouldn't have ended on a friendly note.
The slide will likely still move.
"slide bite" is a thing and the amount of force from one moving is something you can't just grip tightly to prevent from moving.
Everything from direct blowback, to roller delayed is going to put a lot of force on that slide. Enough to say, "fuck your hand."
My slavshit makarov.
Nobody's disagreeing with regulation.
It's the fact that it's also a conscription agreement that's the problem.
In the comics, it turns them into a SHIELD army battalion. Probably going to do the same in the movie.
SHIELD answers to the UN.
The UN denounced SHIELD after the Hydra uprising.
The military was on their ass because they no longer had UN authority and nobody could vet or trust the existing SHIELD remnants. New SHIELD is no longer affiliated with any government and is basically a vigilante spy organisation now.
He may be their Batman, but AoU was about Stark being wrong, and the end was about him taking himself off the board because of it.
Also, are you really saying that RDJ as a protagonist is that different from other Marvel protagonists? Because frankly, I don;t see the difference, except maybe in AoU.
She and Cap are both alone in a world where they feel they don't belong. Cap has lost Peggy so Bucky is his last connection. Wanda is deeper into that wilderness with the loss of family and home. They both want their old lives back. It's painful. Her growing powers are pushing her further and further away from the person she was. Clint connects her to her past self, Cap inspires her, and Vision connects her to the new person she is becoming by being on a similar journey.
Cap molds her into an Avenger.
Strange molds her into a Witch.
I don't think it's like Speedball at all, the whole team probably fucks up by chasing CB into a populated area but Wanda gets the sharp end of it. She panics, something Zemo does disrupts her powers, or she gets her powers janked by
a certain naughty Elder God
My guess is Wanda quits, or wants to quit after the Crossbones incident, but of course the Accords create a problem for her there. She leaves and Clint takes her in at his farm.
It's kind of canon (sans Bendis) that Wanda does not like Avengers fighting each other, and, despite her hard to get over anger towards him, she does know Stark wants to "make things right".
Bucky probably has layers of brainwashing, wheels within wheels. He might be the Trojan horse used to destroy Cap by leading him down a dark path. I think Hydra have let Bucky think he is free.
The encounter with Stark at the UN occurs just before the explosion IMHO, thus Bucky is framed.
It's not called Iron Man: Civil War.
Wanda generally has no place to go
Until maybe a year ago she was a homeless gypsy girl wandering the streets of bumfuck Eastern Europe
She literally joined a Nazi to have some purpose in life
Plus she must have spent a lot of time following her parents' deaths whoring herself out on the streets for a loaf of bread so she and Pietro wouldn't starve, and now Pietro is gone
She's a filthy slut who only had her body to make a living with and if she hadn't joined Strucker, she'd be out on the streets of Europe right now taking refugee cock for welfare money
Look at her eyes and tell me she isn't basically begging for it.
Those eyes look like she's been taking it for far too long and can't feel anything anymore
She probably just agrees to anything now for an extra loaf of bread; double anal, piss drinking, ass eating, anything
>device that serves a purpose of stopping a bullet when you're holding a gun
>takes a second or so to grab the gun
>only works when the gunner is in grabbing range
>takes at least 4 seconds to apply
>used by someone with jack shit combat experience outside his suit
>against a career assassin
Is this the most useless invention of all time?
I've never seen it edited with Skull. Doom's a better fit, he doesn't think he's evil while the Skull is proud how evil he is.
>''No more m
>Wanda arrives at Avengers HQ after Age of Ultron
>Steve shows her to her room
>There is a nice bed, a clean bath, good clothes and plenty of food and water
>Wanda is overwhelmed and instinctively falls to her knees and starts undoing Steve's pants, as years of life on the streets have programmed her to do
Will Steve pull away out of shock and tell Wanda those days are over or will he be too much of a sperg and succumb to the temptation?
OH MY GOD WANDA HE'S TRYING TO BITE ME WHERE ARE YOU
google says 5'10, so he's probably like 5'7 or something.
Doesn't help that he's always surrounded by 6 footers and above, but most of his scorn come from not accepting it and being ashamed of it. Ruffallo is about the same height and no-one gives him shit because he's the chillest guy there is.
I don't understand why people say that Age of Ultron had bad CGI because of the flying truck scene when pic related is the worst offender.
YOU ARE AN ENEMY OF FREEDOM AND AMERICA YOU COMMIE SCUM
I don't think people say bad CGI about the truck scene. It was a moronic scene, with an idiotic plan to carry the thing, but the CGI itself was good enough to be believable, visually. The worst offender of bad CGI in AoU is Thor at the beginning and Iron Man mk 45.
The Doctor isn't know for his fashion sense. He wore celery as an accessory in the 70s.
At least those colors match.
That suit fits him pretty well, what's the issue with the suit?
God damn, he's built like a midget.
>you will live to see Iron Manlet shot in the face
Praise the sun.
she a cute
I'd marry a bitch taller than me in a minute. Hit me up, Karlie Kloss.
Not that anon and We can debate what "good means" but it drastically increases the chances of the gun not firing. Presuming he is pushing the slide backwards or attempting to. You can take a semiautomatic out of battery by doing that.
I'm not claiming you can cause semi-auto to not fire by by putting downard pressure on the slide, but if you push it back you can knock it out of battery.
>going full retard
All of your posts in this thread are stating that Captain America is somehow an inherently greater man than the rest of the billions of people on this planet and is therefore the ultimate arbiter of judgement when it comes to any moral statement. You're saying that no matter what he does, it's always going to be right as long as he's doing what he believes in. That's insane. You're not looking for a Captain America. You're not looking for a Superman. You're not looking for a hero. You're looking for a God.
And even he'd be disgusted.
>would you rather hunt down Bucky Barnes or Bruce Banner?
>Their nature determines their authority, and they will live out their greatness if they are born with the capacity to do so. Steve was chosen for a reason
So you're saying that Thanos didn't do nothing wrong, then?
>lego general is here
Also, I don't give a shit about Cap but he has Wanda and Ant Man, so game on
The outright correctness and sanity of this post reminded me that I need to get back to work and stop reading 4chan.
Easily to capture and kill a cripple with one arm as oppose to a rage monster with a temper tantrum.
uhhh holding the slide of a pistol wont stop it from firing, just stop it from cycling. the victim would still be pretty screwed in that situation.
also this highlights why revolvers are superior in this situation.
>But really I think she gets a hearing or a trial of some sorts during the end of TWS after she leaks all of SHIELD's info.
Yeah, a trial she walked right the fuck out of while no one even bothered to try and stop her.
Come on anon this outfit was baller.
Will he show up as Tony the Tiger?