What's happening with the netflix show and the hashtag #AAIronFist? I never read the comics, only watched the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon and in there Iron Fist is a white guy, and looking in google every picture I saw is more white dudes. I'ts another pc campaign like with Doctor Strange last year?
It was started by a person who doesn't understand his origin or character arc. Since it happened during the wake of Gamergate, it's bulldozed through any and all Iron Fist conversations. It's dominated the discussion, now. Even though it really shouldn't have.
That cracked me right the fuck up. Everything about brown Elsa was so amazingly racist and ignorant. I mean, yes, obviously the sami people are brown because all native peoples are brown. How could they not be?
Yep, exactly. I mean look at how many think-pieces there are already written decrying the character and how racist and archaic he is.
This Anon's rebuttal to the ComicAlliance "Asian-American or White Saviour" article is fucking brilliant. And perfectly illustrates why in this instance the white character needs to stay white. Do comic-book journalists not need to do research anymore?
Internet social justice teaches you, you can't question minorities. So people believe "Nerds of Colour"'s interpretation without question or research, and this happening post-Gamergate, has made this situation into the mess that it is.
Well the problem is that there's no incentive to do research. For a recent example of how quality reporting doesn't earn you anything, look at the failure of Grantland. Had the Disney beast behind them and still needed to shut down because it is so difficult to monetize good, long-form writing.
>the same guy that wanted Scott Lang to be black, because he went to prison?
You know I read a bunch of anti-identity politics and SJW articles on major newspapers lately and got the impression that movement was getting weaker, so I'm sad to hear about stupid stuff like this.
I can't believe this is fucking real. SJWs are delusional
>I won't watch Iron Fist if he's a white dude
Why do they think their opinion matters so much
It's actually fine if he's Asian-American or White American IMO. His mother could actually be from K'un L'un for example, that would completely work as a character beat and might help to ground things for TV plebs more.
See this is that problem of how big the Iron Fist misconceptions have gotten. It's spread to people in the industry, all over, including Lexi Alexander. Who recently said she had pleasant chat with Marvel.
Can someone just explain how white privilege effects his relationship with Luke Cage, and NYC as a whole. This is a shame, because I don't mind Marjorie Liu.
I'd be fine if the actor was HALF Asian, since the native Dragon-people's racistness to danny is a major plot point in Iron Fist.
Instead of the hate being because he's white it's because he'd be a mutt.
The whole "its racists for the Asian to do something thats part of Asian culture" is a fucking stupid talking point and not at all valid.
This is not to say he should be changed, because he shouldn't, but its a stupid argument.
>You can't can't call people colored!
>You can't group people together because of their race!
>Using people of color to refer to all non-whites is okay though.
>We must fight stereotypes, people cannot be confined by their race!
>The kung fu man better be Asian
What the fuck has happened? Are the SJWs going so left that they're coming right?
For those that can't or won't go to the link.
>Okay, thanks, that actually made me think of some things. That writer has very clearly never read anything centering around Iron Fist, which you can tell because they clearly don't grasp his origins. His article never mentions that Danny's father himself was an adoptive citizen of K'un Lun, that his expedition with his family and business partner was him trying to return to his home, that the expedition ended with Danny being orphaned. It never mentions that Danny was nine when he was stranded in the mountains, too young to have any real conception of his cushy life in America, that he found the city on his own after, or that he was adopted and naturalized by a man respected in the community. Danny was a citizen of the City of the Immortals, not a "tourist." He was an immigrant. The culture of K'un Lun is the culture he knows and understands, not the culture of America, where he was born.
>Naturally, not understanding or at least acknowledging that, he never discusses what it means to be raised the adoptive son of one culture and return to the one of which you were an organic part. Understanding only that Danny is privileged in America, affluent, handsome, blue-eyed, white-skinned blond, but not that his natural social superpower is something Danny is unaccustomed to. It's something he explores. Remembering that he was raised as the outsider in a society without wealthy extravagance, consider how he would feel returning to America where he is king. He wouldn't, as perhaps most men of his status do, take it for granted, he wouldn't believe that his life was typical, or that the lavishness and prejudice of the other men in his new social circle were ordinary. If you are looking for white privilege to be explored by any super hero, you can't look much farther than Danny Rand.
But in this case it's just making him asian because they do karate. He'd be an entirely different kind of asian going into KunLun, it's like saying a Chinese guy should totally be a samurai
Not him but I think it's worth mentioning since that is the movement itself. Surely if he was Mexican it would cause the same troubles for him being seen as an outsider but also provide them with something other than the white savior stuff right? But they still argue that he should be East Asian or of East Asian descent over anything else. That's a problem.
To be fair, those people who are complaining about Dick don't really care about SJW things. That whole situation is just gender-inverted waifufags. They just take advantage of tumblr's buttons so people will agree with them.
It won't be long now until one of them takes a picture of a Grayson tpb burning in a fire.
>The whole "its racists for the Asian to do something thats part of Asian culture" is a fucking stupid talking point and not at all valid.
I believe the argument goes something like "it's racist that because someone is good at something from Asian culture, they have to be Asian". Alternatively "it's racist to assume people with Asian genes (Asian Americans) have an easier time learning about Asian culture than people from other races (in this case whites) but with the same culture".
I mean fuck, nothing works like that. And I'm sure all those Asian violin prodigies are glad about it.
That's what they want to make him an "Americanized" K'un-Lunian reconnecting back to his culture via Kung-Fu. As an allegory for an Asain-American reconnecting back to their culture.
Which could be an interesting story. But, it isn't Danny's. Would would have to change his origin and everything about him for that to happen.
Y'KNOW THIS REMINDS ME OF THAT RESIDENT EVIL 5 DEALIE.
MY BUDDY WAS ALL LIKE "I DIDN'T THINK RESIDENT EVIL 5 WAS RACIST UNTIL I WAS A WHITE MALE SHOOTING ACTUAL SPEARCHUCKERS IN AFRICA"
AND I WAS ALL LIKE "WHAT, YOU WANT WHITE SPEARCHUCKERS? THAT WOULD BE MORE RACIST IN MY OPINION."
Even by the SJW definition of "Cultural Appropriation" it's not applicable for Danny Rand. He was raised there since the age of NINE. K'un-Lunian culture IS his culture. American culture is the culture he goes BACK TO. He's literally the reverse of an Asian-American. And they would know this if they took more than five minutes thinking about his character.
Problem is SJWs find race and culture VERY HARD concepts to divorce. That's why they are clamouring for Danny to be a Ku'n-Lunian who grew up earth then goes back to Ku'u-Lun. That's a 180 flip of his character origin.
The fact that people flat out refuse to get this, is maddening
Y'SEE, IF ANYTHING CHANGING DANNY RAND TO AN ASIAN WOULD BE RACIST BECAUSE IT WOULD BE PROMOTING THE STEREOTYPE ALL ASIANS KNOW MARTIAL ARTS.
YOU HAVE TO PULL JADEN SMITH AND MAKE DANNY RAND BLACK BECAUSE IT DON'T MAKE NO SENSE EITHER WHICH WAY AND WILL CREATE MORE ARTIFICIAL DIVERSITY VIA AFFIRMATIVE ACTION WHICH ALL FALL UNDER THE AUTISM UMBRELLA OF IMAGINARY SYNDROMES.
>And they would know this if they took more than five minutes thinking about his character.
Well, there's your problem. As if any SJW would read a comic if they can just read online that he's a white guy trained by Asians in under a minute.
They are also addicted to call-out culture. Not enough people actually praising good things that star minorities. Just white people trying to earn brownie points by showing they "care"
Shit like that has been done and done, and I thought it was racist to tell a guy "go back to Africa where you can connect with who you are". Or maybe I assumed wrong.
And yeah, it's not racist when (some) black American people decided on their own volition to be panafrican and rastafarai and all that shit, but they did that on their own accord. Fuck can you imagine if some white guy created Kwanzaa? "There, a Christmas for you guys too, it's African like you".
Point being: yeah, if Asians want to make a story about an Asian who reconnects with their roots (which there are already plenty of examples of), then fucking let them do that, instead of pressuring Hollywood jews and whites to culturally appropriate THAT fucking story too.
well she us right there is no reason he couldn't be asian.
there is also no reason he couldn't be literally any other race, as far as i'm concerned his race is not important to the character, at least backstory wise.
but i never got why race has to be a big part of all characters anyway.
That in-and-of itself is a stereotype, glosses over actual issues within a culture in favor of a sanitized presentation, implies that cultural rigidity is an ideal, and denies the idea of autonomy or blending within individual cultural reconciliation, at best. At worst it's like if they made a remake of Eat, Pray, Love with Mindy Kaling and more punching.
I love how they pretend the opposite isn't happening more -- white characters being cast as "minorities" for whatever, never explained reason.
She can't take any more of it? Look who's talking! That's OUR damn line, the people who've read comics and have to watch them change things to fit YOU lady. You really doesn't give a fuck beyond what little social media attention they can get.
>they can just read online that he's a white guy trained by Asians in under a minute.
Yeah, but his origin has been twisted by several people, and several caveats left out. Just because of how the "white guy in a predominately Asian setting" has been done before.
Most of the arguments have been painting him
as " White, rich adult male looks for Eastern Enlightenment. Finds K'un-Lun, trains for two months, beats the Natives who's trained their entire life, gains the power of the Iron Fist, and saves the inferior Asians of their bondage with his superior white blood."
Which doesn't fucking happen. I know people want more non-white superheroes, and more Asian males on screen. That's a great goal, and something I wholeheartedly agree with.
However, strawmanning a character with very erroneous information is a really shitty thing to do. 1) It's poisoning people to character that otherwise might like. 2) It's getting people's hopes up over nothing.
Seriously, It's so fucking irresponsible. Expect Iron Fist to trend in a really bad way come casting time.
>how the "white guy in a predominately Asian setting" has been done before
Getting his ass kicked by Bruce Lee or some clone of him?
Because that seems to have happened a lot more than shit like The Last Samurai. Fuck it happens in every Jackie Chan movie.
Reminder that originally it was going to be a RE1 reunion: Barry and Chris go to save Jill from Wesker, so that Barry can finally get his redemption and revenge himself against Wesker at the same time. That's why the assets and moveset for Barry exist in the Mercenaries. However, with the racism backlash they hamfisted Sheva in there, so that the racism was ok. She will likely never be seen or heard from again, but she had to be there because it was less racist that way.
That said, the spearchucking thing was a little bit poorly judged.
True. It's less him being white which is central to his character, and more that his being non-Asian is central to his character.
Him being white is great for hanging out with Luke, though. Not that that's the biggest thing to consider, of course.
>What's happening with the netflix show and the hashtag #AAIronFist?
Nothing. Nobody pays attention to twitter campaigns or moveon petitions. Stop feeding the trolls and they'll go away.
If people want an Asian character who knows martial arts why don't they ask for Shang Chi instead of Iron Fist? None of the arguments I'm seeing which defend such a combination as enlightened and progressive rather than a throw back to the exploitation days seems like they can't be retooled so their themes are applied to him.
Not really. I mean if it was a straight up big budget action movie adaption of Iron Fist I could see that argument being used. But, It's being developed on Netflix the perfect place to talk about deep topic social issues. The other three Defenders are already paving that way, I don't see why his would be different. I mean look at what they are going on the Luke Cage series, I'm sure racism and police brutality will be explored. And they certainly won't be shying away from his Origin. If that theme/topic won't be seen in Danny's solo show (really he needs Luke's foil), It's probably be lampshade hanged several times when he and Luke meet and hangout.
Even then it his solo it might, just as he remarks about the differences between K'un-Lunian and American Culture, and how he's treated and seen in each.
Those same people don't know who Shang Chi is, and probably only know Iron Fist because of Ultimate Spider-Man and somehow ending up on his wikipedia page while searching for Ironman facts to impress their friends
>Implying judging a story unfit for watching simply because of the actor skin color isn't an incredibly racist thing to do
Chance are those white characters you speak of are played by Jewish actors, because they can use the anti-semitism card if anyone dare say something about the bullshit they pull (which as absurd as it might sound can actually get you into prison/ruin your reputation forever in many countries, USA included) and will use the fact that they are a minority to rake in the benefit of the affirmative action movement with impudence and in bonus act all smug about it, claiming that since they(a de facto minority) benefit from it, then its a victory for affirmative action and pull even more of that bullshit down our throat.
>It's less him being white which is central to his character, and more that his being non-Asian is central to his character.
The guy is old money originally. I understand they could make it so that he's not that old money, but if the guy is 20-something and his father had a vast fortune in the 1990s in the US (enough that Danny would be one of the richest people in the MCU when he comes back), how fucking unlikely is it that he'd be black or latino or any other?
The point (I believe, fuck if I know) of white privilege is not just that you're inherently treated better by society, but also that you're more likely to be born in a higher socio-economic strata.
I mean they don't make much of a point that the guy is specifically white, but really his background of a guy who is originating in the highest strata of the society in the US kind of makes him white.
>Him being white is great for hanging out with Luke, though. Not that that's the biggest thing to consider, of course.
Well it's important for the perenity of the character, since that's who he'll hang out with most after his origin story run, you'd think.
This has gotten pretty big, though. Most IF discussions seem to disintegrate into back and forths about his race.
It's because, unlike Doctor Strange, whose potential casting lists/fancied actors came out not too long after the announcement of the movie, so people knew what sort of actor Marvel was looking for . People have been waiting for Marvel to cast Iron Fist for over A YEAR AND A HALF. This has allowed this to swell the way it has.
Ah, you're one of those people who think TV shows now are deep and examine social issues interestingly, instead of lightly touch on them to justify violence-porn and regular porn.
Alright I'll be that guy who says that jewish people aren't a race, no matter how loud they claim they are one. Ashkenazi jews (the large majority of jews, especially in the western world) are heavily intermixed with central Europeans and should be considered white by the American definition of it. Most other jews are semites, like arabs.
I'm not saying those racial definitions are proper, but fact is the American distinction between "white people" (Anglo-Saxons, Germans, Scandinavians and maybe the French) and "not really white people" (Spaniards, Slavs, Italians, Irish, Ashkenazi Jews) is more cultural and social than based in much biology.
No, like most things it all depends. Like any piece of art it could have the potential to have interest critical ruminations on a variety of topics. But, I know what you mean this is cape shit, doubt it will be made a foregrounded issue, but It should definitely be there.
All this is speculation, we don't know how Mr Buck will handle it, but I hope it's sensitively.
I would not under any circumstance ever desire that for that to happen. He is a stand-a-lone character, with enough lore to be interesting and independent on his own. How the fuck would would meshing them work, anyway?
Instead of attacking this head on, I think the comic book nerds who do know Danny's Origin might try a different approach.
>Danny Rand IS multiculturalisim. His skin is white, but he grew up from childhood in an east asian culture. That's not something you see too often.
>Instead of demanding an asian actor, demand asian writers and behind the camera people to get the inside of his head right.
>Oh, and start scouting awesome asian actors for Shang Chi.
>Are the SJWs going so left that they're coming right?
See Horseshoe Theory.
Not quite. Progressives have gained political power. And their authoritarian fringe is coming out to use it. When they were a power minority, it's all about "Lets all get along", as opposed to "Do it my way or we will destroy you for being racist".
Progressives have won on critical important battles, so they either need to continuously attack more trivial battles with more blowback or quit.
Because actual racial representation isn't the goal.
I'd rather let the numerous anime that have done the theme well do it. But I would try a trade of an Amy Tan Great Ten superhero book.
It's a natural part of identity politics.
Then go adapt some shonen anime. And I don't mean like Dragonball Evolution.
Rand is an anglo/saxon name. Hispanic though isn't that crazy, if they went with a Don Patron kind of california rich, or castillian spain kind of hispanic. But then we get into white hispanics and all that shit.
I also agree with you on the importance of not fucking up Heroes for Hire.. The balance with Luke Cage, and the option of throwing Shang Chi is actually pretty important.
I'm European, but you know,as well as I do this whole debate is US-centric.
I mean, not to be that guy, but no matter how super-leftist we get over here, we'll never have many retards asking for Tintin to be arab in the next adaptation.
Who wants to see a kung fu thing directed, choregraphed, shot and edited by white people anyway.
Iron Fist isn't the Matrix.
Writing I don't care, it was orginally written by a white guy so a white person should be able to write it fine as long as they have a decent knowledge of Asian culture.
>then we get into white hispanics and all that shit.
This. Since they are just focusing on his origin, they would know him looking like K'un-Lunian natives makes no sense for his character. I keep on seeing it being suggested he an very "Americanized" late teens/or adult going and 're-connecting' in K'un-Lun, I guess for a couple of years before returning to America. This isn't Danny's origin, though. He's an Orphan, adopted into another culture, who goes back to his country of origin to avenge his birth parents. In a place now alien to him.
And he's not a #WhiteSaviour, if they actually knew his origin they would know this argument people keep toting is null and void.
>have Iron Fist be one of my favorite characters
>Immortal Iron Fist is in my top five runs
>AA Iron Fist is cast
>"Oh you just like him cause he's Asian right?"
No, you're thinking of Noah Berlatsky who writes and edits for his site Hooded Utilitarian. As far as I know he never wrote for Comics Alliance.
The Iron Fist article was written by Andrew Wheeler who is EIC of Comics Alliance.
If he's not white, I'm not watching it. Simple as that.
He's a white character, who was created by white guys, and his character has been subjected to plenty of white stereotypes.
I'm not willing to accept him being race-changed, just as I'm not willing to accept Blade, Jubilee, Storm, etc. race-changed. It's an insult to character, unless it's for sure the absolute best actor to play the character happens to be of another race, which I seriously doubt is the situation.
No, but, fucking no, it's fucking clickbait.
I'm not willing to actually do anything about it, but the least we could do is ignore it, right?
I mean it's not like they're actually going to make him Asian anyway. Right?
These think-pieces are at the top of most Iron Fist google searches, now. It could be the first thing someone with no knowledge of Danny as a character will see.
I bet Marvel thought this would just blow-over. But, this is the age of Hashtag social justice campaigns, and happening During "The Gate that shall not be named" only allowed it to kick up steam. Of course this wouldn't just 'blow-over'.
Don't care, I still don't believe they'll actually make him Asian. They're not that stupid.
Yeah, I wouldn't call them that.
>"The Gate that shall not be named"
Oh go fuck yourself.
sigh, this will not stop until they announce the casting.
And frankly, I'm anxious to see the advocates of the "asian Iron Fist" devastated when Marvel and Netflix announce that the actor is a white guy. I'm going to enjoy it.
Thanks, for clearing that up. Wrong verb to use.
The only "false binary" I'm really seeing, is the one they're making. People who's actually taken the time to explain how "White Privilege" factors into his character and how it informs his dynamic with Luke Cage have been shut down as "problematic racists".
There may have been some folks that used that approach he describes. I.E- Say that an Asian martial-Artist is stereotypical so shouldn't be done, and Danny should be white, just because. (some people maybe even being racist) OK, to lump those with people explaining, is frustrating and unfair, and forcing a binary he says he hates.
>This YOU ARE WITH ME OR YOU ARE AGAINST ME! mentality post-gg is so fucking annoying.
God, I'm not. It already makes Iron Fist discussions stressful, as is. I actually agree with the #AAIronFist advocates about there being more diversity on screen, and having more Asian males in prominent roles. But, slandering a character with a false interpretation in the public consciousness in order to race-bend him is certainly NOT the way to do it.
A diverse Iron Fist movie would have hired an established East Asian martial arts choreographer and/or showrunner, and it would make Iron Fist black or Indian or Mexican or whatever the fuck. It (probably) wouldn't make him East Asian because that plays hard into a stereotype in a superhero franchise which already has 'The Rich White Guy' and 'The Real American White Guy' as actual characters.
An East Asian Iron Fist will be a comfortable, lip service nod to diversity in Marvel's TV franchises so they might well do it. But it doesn't change all of the announced production staff so far are white and it's far cry from one of Netflix's genuinely diverse series e.g. OitNB.
>First time finding out about Iron Fist
>See all this heated agro over his race, that's persisted for well over a year. Only see it grow.
>Everytime I see Iron Fist mentioned I get pangs of dread, as I know what conversations it's gonna lead to.
These are not the feeling I asked for guys. I wanna get off this ride.
I read an article that complained K'un-Lun was inherently racist because it was a medieval kung fu wizard city instead of a developed modern Asian economy. I wanted to die. What do the people writing these think these shows are meant to be?
>>This YOU ARE WITH ME OR YOU ARE AGAINST ME! mentality post-gg is so fucking annoying.
If things are going the way they're going on Twitter and Tumblr and various boards, I think at some point that mentality is going to be turned against them. You could see an example of it happening when Wheeler and Janelle Asselin (remember when she called out a Titans cover and got rape threats and somehow this led to the deletion and reboot of the CBR forums?) tried to defend Chris Sims and were attacked by people who were upset at them defending Sims.
Requires Hate A.K.A Winter Fox is an OG SJW, from LiveJournal, as in those who use the language of Social Justice in order to bully and harrass people and shut down conversations, like Riley and Gender-bitch. It's only after GG where the definition changed/another got added.
Just her luck her outting was right during GG, IIRC she re-tweeted Zoey Quinn tweets, called Fail_FandomAnon the "Fandom version of 4chan", and got defended by the likes of Arthur Chu. If only he knew what a sack of shit she is, but I'm sure he doesn't even care, just like her sycophants, who refuse to believe any and all evidence of her behaviour.
Because, it's easier and they don't have to think critically. Also, remember internet social justice can be pretty darn toxic. Anyone who makes the tiniest of transgressions, whether innocuous or not are deemed inherently "problematic" and gives people license to hate on them. This fosters a terrible environment in which people can learn in, because people's mistakes get punished dis proportionally to what they actually did. Which means people are shit scared of "fucking-up" and being accidentally "problematic", lest they get dog-piled. It's safer and less stressful to just run with the crowd, using SJapproved speak and applying it indiscriminately. Which is bad, because it helps spread erroneous information and just creates sheeps out of people.
At this point it all seems like its built first and foremost on the premise that "Straight + White + Male = Bad" and the further you get from that combination, the more socially "just" you are and the more qualified you are to speak on social and political issues, ironically because of your own race/color/creed, not because you're actually qualified in any way.
This of course leads to hilarious infighting when two marginalized groups start arguing over who is further from Straight White Male on the privilege scale, meaning who has more moral authority.
I still can't belive problematic favs are actually a thing.
>Which means people are shit scared of "fucking-up" and being accidentally "problematic", lest they get dog-piled.
Are they really though? I mean besides people who rely on fat girls being their largest fanbase, like most of the MCU cast.
I was replying to the Anon talking about RequiresHate. She's a serial harasser in the Sci-Fi community. She uses use rhetoric like saying a girl should be "raped by dogs" just because she disagreed with her. And other people to have "acid poured over them." Those are only some choice examples there is many more. At the latest Hugo Awards Laura Mixon won an award for doing a report on her. It was a relief for a lot of people, as some victims of her's weren't believed in. She's cyber-stalked people for years, but she keeps being defended, because of the SJ language she uses, and because she a supposed WoC. Even though she's not.
If you scroll down this explains how she single-handily destroyed a book community, devoted to celebrating and sharing genre books by PoC.
You'd be surprised by how many people feel like they are 'walking on eggshells' in SJ comms.
I've read some really good think pieces about callout-culture and it's toxicity. So, I certainly know I'm not the only one who feels it's completely unproductive and in many cases harmful.
>in SJ comms.
Well no shit. I mean sucks for them but who lives by the sword dies by the sword.
>using "toxicity" unironically when talking about culture
Oh. My God! YOU'RE ONE OF THEM AREN'T YOU!?
Calling her a WoC in an American or western context, would make sense, as it's a white supremacy. I.E- If she was an Asian-American, that lived in America, or another country where white people hold the majority of power.
But, she's a Han Chinese person from Thailand. She's part of the upper echelon of society. She has power+privilege. Also, IIRC Thailand was also never colonized by western forces. She's NOT a WoC, no matter how often she and her acolytes profess she is.
No, I'm not. A lot of my views would not mesh with SJW on Tumblr.
But, they would certainly be twisting over themselves if they found out I'm
>implying "toxicity" isn't the apt term to use for how Internet SJ can be.
Never colonized, but, when your original Portugese merchant traders are hitting this area there isn't even a Thailand but a variety of fluctuating and transient kingdoms. Thailand was never colonized but it was highly pressured and forced to throw in its lot with colonizing forces.
I'm in no way up-to-date with critical theory or SJ rhetoric though so if WoC now only applies to the native born I stand corrected. But she is or has been resident in America.
This is the argument.
There are next to 0 asians on TV and outside of Master of None they're all stereotypes. Name me one super hero of asian decent, name one Marvel protagonist that is Asian (no Thor's friend doesn't count he is basically a cameo).
So now you've got a TV show centring on a mystical bad ass from Asia. Why not just cast an guy from Asian decent? He could still be Asian American and he could still have long blonde hair?
Why not give loads of people who feel totally under represented in culture some representation? Assuming you find a suitably awesome actor?
>Why not give loads of people who feel totally under represented in culture some representation?
Do those people even give a damn? This seems like yet another case of "Don't worry. I, the white person, am looking out for YOUR best interests!".
Thanks, for illuminating me on some Thai history.
The term WoC was created by black-American women to show solidarity to other minority women under a system of white supremacy. (Changed from "Black Women's Agenda")
more info here:http://www.racialicious.com/2011/03/03/for-your-womens-history-month-loretta-ross-on-the-origin-of-women-of-color/
Sorry, if I wasn't being clear, when I used an Asian-American as an example. It doesn't just apply to native-born. An Asian from Asia could be treated the same way as an Asian-American could be under an American or Western context of "White Supremacy". While she is in America that term makes sense.
However, and this is where I take great umbrage at, she not in Thailand, for the reasons I've stated.
I don't want her be-moaning about being an oppressed female minority, when in Thailand, she is not. Your race, and consequently how you are treated can fluctuate depending where you are in the world. Race itself is not a fixed concept, and this is what people seeped in US-based social justice seem to fail to realize.
>outside of Master of None they're all stereotypes.
So your solution is to make more stereotypes by yellow-washing a white character instead of, say, making a new well written Asian character that isn't a stereotype?
>Why not give loads of people who feel totally under represented in culture some representation?
Because it isn't white people's job to make Asians or anyone else feel represented, doubly so when it involves altering someone else's hard work to suit some bullshit narrative.
Nope, this shit has gone viral. People in the industry are now giving their two cents over it, based on a false character study. Including Lexi Alexander, so recently had a talk with Marvel.
Everyone who actually cares about Danny's character, or at least those who've researched the character properly, understand this.
Non-fans don't though, and this is what they're being force-fed. Is it any wonder people now hate White!Danny's guts, and want him to be AA!Danny?
Ben Kingsley is of asian descent, SJWs still moaned "Whitewashing"
The campaign was started by as Asian-American guy, though. He got a lot of info wrong, it spread, and here we are.
It's not just white people that are pushing the hashtag, it's a mixture.
>Why not give loads of people who feel totally under represented in culture some representation?
Why not create something entirely new in order to do so instead of royally fucking with an established character whose canonical race is actually pretty damn important to the narrative? Or hell, why not give plenty of attention to the Asian supporting cast of Iron Fist?
Are you all expecting anything good from the producer who blessed us with the sixth season of Dexter?
Anyone else hoping Michael C Hall will play Steel Serpent?
There is literally nothing wrong with power fantasies. God damn near everyone has them.
Yeah but's as technical as you can get. I mean the guy is half-white half-indian.
And yeah I understand he's not actually playing a chinese man and that they'd probably have gone even more retarded if he was his Fu Manchu self.
Dexter ain't jobbing to no cliff, bro.
You say that like Marvel only make Danny white, because they didn't believe an Asian Kung-Fu lead. During the fucking 70's? Of all eras? Not true, Marvel had Martial Artists of different ethnicities make during their Kung-Fu exploitation era. Including Asian. This is one of the three main misconceptions I keep seeing repeated.
>You say that like Marvel only make Danny white, because they didn't believe an Asian Kung-Fu lead.
I never said that.
>Marvel had Martial Artists of different ethnicities make during their Kung-Fu exploitation era. Including Asian. This is one of the three main misconceptions I keep seeing repeated.
Shang-Chi was created before Iron Fist. They had an Asian hero, then they created a white dude next after the creator was watched a Bruce Lee film.
Quit trying to read into something that isn't there.
If an actor of Asian descent were cast in the role I'd be fine with it, but they shouldn't feel like they have to cast him as Asian in order to make up for a supposed "injustice" of him having originally been a white character with an Asian-themed superhero identity.
I know people are fed up of waiting for an Asian character in the MCU , and if he has to be a Martial Artist in which to do it, so be it. But, Shang needs his own property, not a support in somebody else's. Plus, that way an Asian male character would get to be the lead.
But anon, casting white people in roles for asians has been a thing since the early days of cinema and has continued into the modern era. It actually happens far more often than the reverse. Asians are the most underrepresented minority in Hollywood after native people for this very reason. If you don't believe me, you've probably never seen or heard of Dragon Ball: Evolution, The Last Airbender and Aloha.
Sorry, if that's not what you meant. I've just been seeing a crap ton of people say/suggest Danny is Danny rand, and not Danny Chen, because Marvel though an Asian lead would be unsuccessful.
>After the creator watched a Bruce Lee film.
Heck, most Kung-Fu characters probably wouldn't exist, if it weren't for him. Also, remember his origin is inspired by "Amazing Man".
I don't see why Danny's mother couldn't be from Kun Lun.
It would give even more reason for Danny's father to Kun Lun with his family.
Can't really imagine his American wife being totally okay with his obsession and climbing around the Kunlun mountains with their 9 year old to find it.
>Sorry, if that's not what you meant. I've just been seeing a crap ton of people say/suggest Danny is Danny rand, and not Danny Chen, because Marvel though an Asian lead would be unsuccessful.
That's okay, bro, we must be two of the nine people in the world who actually reads Iron Fist comics.
The hilarious thing about the SJWs on Tumblr is that they were trying so hard to be "anti-racist" that they ended up being "racist" by completely mischaracterizing the Sami people and promoting a false image of who they are and what they look like. They were also "racist" by assuming that all "indigenous" people have brown or ruddy skin and black hair.
I wouldn't take offense at someone having an innocent misconception about what a certain ethnicity are like, but SJWs crossed the line by trying to start another moral crusade around a misconception that a simple Google image search can refute. It's like none of them even did a modicum of research before deciding to try and spark a moral outrage over Frozen.
>If you don't believe me, you've probably never seen or heard of Dragon Ball: Evolution, The Last Airbender and Aloha.
Yeah DBE had at least like 5 Asians in important roles and the Last Airbender was chuckfull of Indians and had Asians as the dirt people.
I'm not saying they looked accurate to the source material but that's about as asian as it gets in Hollywood.
Also am I the only person who ever watched this movie?
>Bring his wife along then.
She makes a delicious snack for the locals.
Lee was also a fervent believer in merging western and asian cultures to make his ideas and fighting stronger (earning a degree in philosophy in an American college and incorporating western martial techniques into his fighting style, aswell as marrying a white woman), so he'd probably scoff at this cultural appropriation bullshit.
First of all, a lot of people are angry at the casting choices of that show.
Really though, this has to do with a lot of Asian men feeling as though they can't ever get portrayals of Asian men that are masculine and sexual. Its the reason everyone freaked out and praised scorch trials even though its a terrible movies. There are just a fuckton of Asian men who are tired of being seen as wimps.
As far as why that insecurity exists, is actually a really complicated history and it goes back to world war two propaganda that heavily feminized Japanese men, a stereotype that has now grown to encompass all asian men under it's assumption.
>Actual Iron Fist fans, who understand his character, are being drowned out by people saying he's "inherently problematic" by a false character study.
>It's going to turn away new potential Iron Fist fans, and demonize people towards him.
Being a Danny Rand fan, in these times must be truly suffering.
>The movie that made all the asians bad guys and all the important good guys white.
If anything the Last Airbender shows how unimportant asian americans are to hollywood, and how important white people are to their marketing departments.
also one indy movie made for a film festival doesn't negate the issue.
>Davos gets all the bitches
>Fat Cobra gets all the bitches
If they seriously think the Asian male characters in Iron Fist mythos are of the Asexual, or wimp variety, they have another thing coming. Also, Davos, like his dad is SWOLE AS FUCK. Which is rare for an Asian male to be seen on screen as.
Like many Asian emigrants he wanted to share Asian culture with the world. "Cultural appropriation" was not a thing back then. They were more interested in building appreciation for their culture rather than putting it in a box and trying to shield it from problematic eyes.
>There are next to 0 asians on TV and outside of Master of None they're all stereotypes. Name me one super hero of asian decent, name one Marvel protagonist that is Asian (no Thor's friend doesn't count he is basically a cameo).
SHANG CHI THE MOTHERFUCKING MASTER OF KUNG FUCKING FU YOU GODDAMN SIMPLETON
>Why not just cast an guy from Asian decent?
Because a huge part of Danny's character revolves around him being a privileged racial majority in America and a discriminated-against racial minority in K'un L'un. He's one of the last character who should be racebent.
>and outside of Master of None they're all stereotypes.
So you want the MCU's first Asian lead to be the Kung Fu guy?
Well you know, market studies and all that.
>also one indy movie made for a film festival doesn't negate the issue.
I wasn't trying to negate the "issue" (which honestly I don't think there is much of an issue here), just genuinely curious because I stumbled on this movie accidentally when on a comedy binge. Had no idea it was an indy movie but it certainly explains how meh it was and how there were literally only asians and pacific islanders in it.
And to get back to "I don't think there's much of an issue here", Jackie Chan, Jet Lee and a host of other asian actors have been playing badasskickers in Hollywood movies for decades. No they haven't been playing the titular character most of the time because of Hollywood relying on said market research.
And really, internet activism isn't going to be a better measure in their eyes than that market research, so I mean, why fucking bother caring about it.
Also Romeo Must Die was kind of a daring movie wasn't it? Asian male and black female leads? Did the jews kill Aalyiah?
Stereotypes get power from being the only thing you see of a character. Giving the kongfu guy a whole TV show will eventually evolve him into being something more than just the kongfu guy.
Well yeah but that's ignoring his own personal interest in western culture. I mean you don't get a philosophy degree in a western university in the 60s/70s if you aren't into western culture.
Besides he wasn't much of an average asian immigrant, he was a superstar before coming to the US.
Holy shit, this vapid cunt can't even stop himself from making a dig at the passing of a great man.
Andrew Wheeler is garbage. Human garbage.
The research youre talking about is bassed on backwards and outdated understandings of our country. We're in a different world now. Starwars was all women and people of color, twenty years ago that would have bombed or skated to stage left as "niche" media for minority audiences. Now movies like that are making some of the biggest numbers ever seen.
Jackie Chan does in one of the Rush Hours. Also doesn't he get Jennifer Love Hewitt in the Tuxedo? If not Jackie Chan is a fag.
And yeah, Jet Lee getting that hot brown pussy is the plot of Romeo Must Die, if the Romeo and Juliet reference wasn't obvious enough.
So? If there was any fucking logic to this bitching, the "Why isn't Iron Fist Asian?!" movement would be the "Where's my Shang Chi movie?!" movement. And the more people bitch about the former, the less likely the latter will be, because if they made Iron Fist Asian and then said "also we're introducing another Asian hero, Shang Chi", the internet would be in an uproar over "WTF THERE'S ONLY TWO AZN HEROES IN THE MCU AND THEY'RE BOTH KUNG FU GUYS WTF STEREOTYPE BULLSHIT!"
Isn't it MORE racist to say that because he's good at martial arts, Iron Fist HAS to be Asian?
And don't fucking "muh culture" me, as other anons have pointed out, martial arts transcends all culture, color, creed and gender. It's the one true equalizer, and I hate to see it sullied by social politics.
I think it depends on what interpretation you're read. I think in the latest Iron Fist that explored more of his childhood, their was a panel where some young K'un-Lunian boys called him "a white pig", just before Sparrow help trained him.
Here's what Andrews had to say.
>There are several flashbacks in "Rage" involving young Danny and young Sparrow that show she may have given Danny an important emotional attachment while he was growing up in K'un-Lun.> Their friendship was one of the reasons he wasn't completely murderous when he first left the mystical city.
>She is also an outsider. She's only half of K'un-Lun origin. The other half is of American descent. K'un-Lun is a world of warriors and fighters like Ancient Sparta, and Spartans lived a very hard life. It takes a forge to create a sword. You need to hammer the blade to imbue it with strength, fold the metal over and hammer it out again. So you can imagine his upbringing living in a world like that would be hard, especially as an outsider -- someone who's unwanted and maybe resented by the locals. I could write a whole book just about that childhood. I think it's so cool and I haven't seen it before, not like this.
He is still an outsider, so not everyone may like him, even if the higher echelons do. I've heard was treated like that in his earlier arcs, but I can't corroborate that, as I haven't read them.
Whether the fact that some K'un-Lunians hated him based on his race, is strong, or just "micro-aggressions. What is important is Danny is not the default race in K'un-Lun, but he IS in America.
>The research youre talking about is bassed on backwards and outdated understandings of our country.
Nigga it's pretty simple. They ask people if they want this or that in a lead character. People answer. They do this all the time, it's not based on research from the 60s. I'm not saying people are right or wrong for apparently preferring white characters on average, I'm just saying they do.
>Starwars was all women and people of color, twenty years ago that would have bombed or skated to stage left as "niche" media for minority audiences. Now movies like that are making some of the biggest numbers ever seen.
Yeah dude it's fucking Star Wars. You could have made Rey a transgender aborigene nazi and people would still have gone and checked it out. And shit it was one woman and one person of color, yes they're the main characters but pretty much the entire supporting cast is white. No, Oscar Isaac doesn't count as PoC. Also where are the dreaded demographics of Hollywood, the asian male and the black female?
Also pretty sure they were trying to make a statement after years of Star Wars being mocked for having one woman and one black guy in their entire universe. No, the prequels don't count and you know it.
>If there was any fucking logic to this bitching, the "Why isn't Iron Fist Asian?!" movement would be the "Where's my Shang Chi movie?!" movement
That would require them to know who Shang Chi is.
My solution is to keep Danny white, but throw in Fat Cobra and make him hyper competent.
Danny being Asian-American means that he'd have no connection to Asian martial arts other than his race. That association is literally racism.
Especially since K'un L'un is a fictional culture, so it'd be saying having genes from one Asian country makes you tied to the cultures of all Asian peoples.
This, even though I want a white Danny. I don't think this argument holds much water, I still want to see Shang-Chi. He's certainly more that just an Asian martial artist TM. That precise argument doesn't leave him much room.
>Who wants to see a kung fu thing directed, choregraphed, shot and edited by white people anyway.
>Iron Fist isn't the Matrix.
Uhhh, The Matrix had kung fu choreography by
YUEN WOO GODDAMN PING
I swear, the fucking ignorance of actual kung fu/martial artistry by the people debating this is staggering.
Sheesh I knew that Matrix dig would bite me in the ass since the action scenes actually look cool and the fighters look competent, which is unusual in Hollywood movies. My bad, but it's certainly not what you'd want from an IF show, and many other people impact how martial arts are filmed besides the choregrapher.
That guy has a fantastic resume though.
>I swear, the fucking ignorance of actual kung fu/martial artistry by the people debating this is staggering.
Well aren't you easily staggered when literally the only person besides you calling for asians to be involved behind the camera makes a dig at a movie.
But the argument isn't that it's racist to have an Asian martial artist, it's that it's racist to make a non-Asian martial artist Asian because martial artists have to be genetically Asian.
the problem is that all these people have probably never heard of Shang-Chi, or the Sons of the Tiger. They hear about a martial artist/superhero with fancy powers and costume and want that, like kids in a toy store.
>Implying Netflix Marvel shows don't pull the most viewers of Netflix shows.
Starwars or not, the show is going to pull in viewers no matter whos leading the cast. Hence Jessica Jones.
A agree with a lot of what you're saying, I was just clarifying intent.
I guess not for some. Arguments I've saw disputing that are:
>They aren't the leads,YMMV on that one
>Daisy is a 'White-Passing' half-Asian
>They're Asian females, not males. Which is what #AAIronFist want.
i'm afraid that even if they make Iron Fist asian, or Marvel make a tv show or movie with Shang-Chi, then they started to whine again about why a doctor of chinese ascension and no japanese? why not from taiwan? or Thailand? or korea? ...
I think this is where people are at a cross-purpose.
There's people arguing that having a Martial artist be Asian is stereotypical so it shouldn't be done, and there are people arguing changing a white martial artist to an Asian one, and not any other race, because he does Kung-Fu is very suspect. It wraps back around to the first argument, which leads to people seeing it without context. Although, context should be obvious considering what we're arguing about.
I know we're getting a head of ourselves here, but I was just thinking how future seasons of Iron Fist could develop, what characters could appear. It would make perfect sense that if Sons of the Tiger were to be introduced in any show it would be Iron-Fist. Sun-Lin, leader of sons is Chinese-American. The theme of "cultural re-connection via Kung-Fu" could be done with him. It would certain fit him more than changing Danny's character.
The real question that people should be asking is how the action is going to be.
Will it be Wirefu? Will it have CGI? Will it be like Daredevil?
Personally i'm okay with some Wires but TV CGI is always bad
I'm not even mad at Hazmat. They're angry kids lashing out because they felt betrayed. Of course she'd go for the easy dig. She doesn't know Danny as a person either.
Context is important, something these AAIronFist people don't seem to get.
Jim Morita in C.A: the First Avenger, Scorch in Agents of Shield...
yeah, very few, but with Iron Fist they probably introduce all of this characters: Yu-Ti, Lei-Kung, Davos, Master Khan, The Ninja, Fat Cobra, Dog Brother, they even could change the race of Prince of Orphans (unlike Iron Fist, it's not important to the character), Lin-Sun if they use the Sons of The Tiger... They even could use Hector Ayala and we will have the first latin superheroes in the MCU.
Stop being a faggot.
You want representation? Go support a Deadly Fist of Kung Fu and series. Or ask for an original series with Amadeus Cho.
Stop rice washing white heroes and thinking its not just as racist as changing a character to white to pander to a wider audience.
And if they do what they did with Doctor Strange and they white wash all the tertiary characters too? Like I can see why Iron Fist being white might be better, but to me the pros of having an asian lead in popular fiction outweigh the cons or the pros to the counter argument.
What I REALLY do not understand, is the people that hate the fact that Tilda is The Ancient One, and that Wong seem to be written out/mushed into other characters, saying that even if it's a secondary character it's still good for representation, even if it's in a stereotypical role and they should stop rubbing out Asian faces. Yet, Iron Fist has a whole host of them, but it his case it's non acceptable. I'm sorry, what? People's arguments seem to change depending one who's points they're arguing against, even if it contradicts what they said before.
SO you want to sacrifice major aspects of the character purely for representation's sake, and re-enforce racial stereotypes while you're at it?
If you want an Asian lead, almost any other Marvel hero would be a better choice to change. But you latched onto Iron Fist for clearly racist reasons.
Also, yes, If anyone needs to be "Race-bended" Asian it's not. 1) It's not relevant in the scheme of things. 2)It would be really cool to see the strongest Immortal Weapon be an Asian guy.
Nothing about his character really necessitates him being white. It necessitates that he's rich and not from Kun'lun. You're actually making an argument thats no different than the prison=black thing.
Major aspects of his character? that he's rich and foreign to the country he's raised in? That Kong-fu was never apart of his upbringing, or culture until Kunlun? none of these necessitate whiteness.
It's important that he is visibly privileged in America and visibly an outsider in K'un L'un. Growing up as someone who could never pass as a local, then returning "home" and being on the opposite end of society, is hugely important.
The people he identifies with culturally don't accept him because of his race, and the place where he is treated better than everyone else based on his race is one that's alien to him.
Meanwhile you decide he should be Asian because he does martial arts, and obviously that requires Asian genes.
You can't argue that you want him to be white for non-racist reasons if you keep calling asian people rice. Secondly, it doesn't. Youre right. People just want to take this as an opportunity to right a hollywood wrong that has existed since the binning of filmmaking.
The fact that he can't pass because of his appearance is something that necessitates whiteness.
It's not just being privileged and an outsider. It's that he can't hide these things no matter how different he is on the inside.
I'll just C/P myself
He's an orphan that loses it all, his parents, his privileges (both racial and financial), everything. And bare in mind he's been in K'un-Lun since the age of nine. NINE, he didn't enter KL a rich, white adult. It would be extremely contrived if after half of his life living there he's still treated like an outsider, if it's not based on a superficial reason.i.e. What he looks like. It's not like he doesn't change clothes and doesn't assimilate to K'un-Lunian culture. Villagers on the street can tell he's an outsider, just by looking at his face. Which, yes he doesn't have to be White, but it doesn't make any sense if he's ethnically K'un-Lunian.
And that only one half of his story. The other part is when he returns to America, and remembers what he forgot. He was born at the apex of social possibility. He's a rich white guy. The world of the rich, white bourgeois is something alien to him, which he explores. He doesn't wish to exert his will on the masses, but help the guy on the street, with his best friend. A black guy, who grew up poor from Harlem. Their social stations are lampshaded when together. What I love about them, though is despite this mild tension, they regard each other like brothers and would die for one another.
His race is very relevant. He's also the perfect character to have interesting and detailed ruminations of "White Privilege" on.
Doing an injustice to source material is not as important as wronging an entire race of people, and actively keeping them from pursuing careers in film. The two wrongs are not equivalent.
You're creating a false dichotomy. If you want more Asian leads, Iron Fist is the LAST place you should be looking, both because it doesn't suit the story and because it's a absolutely racist connection.
Instead of wanting an Asian Dr. Strange, or an Asian Spider-Man, they immediately jump on Iron Fist. And why? Because Asians do the Kung Fu!
If he was mixed-Asian, he would need to be an extremely white-passing one like Alexa Chung. A mixed-asian can still experience "micro-aggressions" in America, whereas a white person would not.
Privilege isn't something you "exercise", but Its something that's there that can make your life easier compared to those that don't have that particular privilege. In this case racial, Just look him compared to his partner and best friend Luke Cage.
>There's people arguing that having a Martial artist be Asian is stereotypical so it shouldn't be done
But no, there are no people arguing that. If you want that there's plenty of that, including Shang-Chi. What's racist is that a non-asian can't be a martial arts master and that martial arts masters have to be asian.
Essentially, yeah. The #AAIronFist campaign is being used as a lighting rod to discuss the plight and sparsity of Asian (male) actors in Hollywood. It's something that there definitely not enough off.
People whating to race-bend Danny I have a problem with. Because, if they analyzed his character origin, arc, personality, closed relationships they would see that they are trying to Race-Bend one of the white characters imaginable. They are trying to bang in a square peg in a round hole.
You're one of the reasons people say Team White!Danny are racists who dislike diverse casting. Let's not.
To be fair, this is the first good argument I've heard in six months of talking about it as to why danny should stay white. That said, I still think it's hugely important to a lot of people that he is an Asian or mixed Asian in the show for legitimate reasons.
I mean Crane lady in DD had super kung fu to force DD into a wirefu blowback so there is that.
Also, i don't think its fair to say that kung fu movies doesn't use wirefu. Jet Li for example uses them a lot
>You're one of the reasons people say Team White!Danny are racists who dislike diverse casting. Let's not.
Maybe people need to grow thicker skin, learn how to take a joke on the internet, and realize that the only "privilege" is wealth.
>he was adopted by royalty.
And? It's pretty standard for the "favored child" to still be hated by everyone else. In fact, wasn't that shown in IIF, where that drove a wedge between Danny and Davos?
Again, we've been over this. There are plenty of ways to do an asian iron fist that are not racist. If a character with stereotypical habits is on screen long enough the audience will start to see them as more than just the stereotype.
The full intro to Iron Fist is pretty brief.
Marvel Premiere issues 15-25
Iron Fist vol 1. issues 1-15
Marvel Team-Up vol. 1 issue 63
Power Man issues 48, 49
Power Man and Iron fist vol. 1 issues 50-125
Wealth the only privilege?
But queers couldn't marry until a year ago, and can still be fired for being gay.
And black people are still under-hired at 4x the rate when they have the same credentials.
And natives live in the worst living conditions. More than any other group on average.
But wealth is the only privilege.
I would agree that its maybe the biggest privilege, but not the only.
No. its a response to having another movie or tv show be about a white guy who marches into a foreign land and is better than everyone else cause fuck yeah aren't white people the greatest most supreme beings that have ever and will ever exist?
no because they don't stop you getting ticketed for doing 55 in a 55 zone twice a week and getting dragged to the station once a month to prove you didn't steal your car from whitey and didn't get your money from drugs.
the richer the black man, the more public humiliation he is made to suffer. and when too many rich black men are in one place, terrorists burn it down. Ever heard of the tulsa race riots?
Nicer cars are pulled over less often. Cars in richer neighborhoods are pulled over far less often. Drive a nice car through a richer neighborhood and you're astronomically less likely to be pulled over. Rich black people are less likely to encounter racism first hand for this precise reason. Most cops can't see the face of a driver from the road. Haven't you ever wondered why most black celebrities don't believe in racism? Wealth is a force field.
Then, why wasn't there an #AADoctor strange campaign? I mean, I get what you're saying and everything. But, Doctor Strange seems much like much more erroneous example, he's not like Danny who arrived in K'un-Lun as an orphaned child, and trained for over a decade. He went there are an Adult,in search of a cure. The only thing I can thing of is, because Danny is a Martial Arts practitioner, where as Steven practices the mystic arts.
And when he's pulled over he has enough wealth to pay for an expensive lawyer that will help him get away with anything a poorer counterpart would never be able to. I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist for black famous or rich. I'm saying its easier.
His advantage has nothing to do with whites being superior, and actually looking at racism and white privilege would be a million times better for societal progress than making a token Asian a master of Kung Fu.
I'm surprised you're actually going to try and engage people HERE about this issue. I'd thank you for sticking up for Asian American male issues, but the cynic of me realizes that no one will listen to you here.
Tokens can't be the main character. Its literally counter to how tokens work. He will always be too important and too fleshed out to ever be as expendable and replaceable as a token.
Even though I agree with you, it is funny to note how many white males heroes where raised or visited and gained powers by visiting an Asian country, or an Asian analogue.
That's what that Anon might be referring to.
The context and purpose of his character changed though, once he started Bro-fisting with Cage and Bumping and Grinding with Misty. It went from "mightly whiteyeque" for lack of a better term, to a (newly) white, rich guy learning about Urban life. One of the best things they ever did was hooking him up with Luke Cage.
Why is it the white man's burden to "throw them even one?" Are we to assume they are unable to come up with a movie-worthy, mystical martial arts based character that can beat Danny Rand in popularity? What exactly are you saying they're lacking that a white character has to cease to exist for an Asian one to be popular?
Maybe. Maybe not. But even if I can't convince anyone, fighting allows me to solidify and make better my own understanding as others point out the flaws in my logic, and I point out the flaws in theirs. Arguing on 4chan might not make anyone change their minds, but it's great practice for real life.
Because when white people monopolize and control the market it becomes very hard for anyone else to have a say. People can either demand change, or make movies that people will have a hard time hearing about.
>Even though I agree with you, it is funny to note how many white males heroes where raised or visited and gained powers by visiting an Asian country, or an Asian analogue.
Isn't that a huge endorsement though? Apparently, everything East of the Bloc countries and South of Russia is so awesome, that just going on a vacation there is enough to become a super hero.
Do you just conveniently decide to pretend that issues relating to Asian-American representation being erased and caricatured through periods of American entertainment history don't exist for the sake of these arguments?
But wait, it wasn't your fault, so you don't give a shit. Not your responsibility.
The head of Disney comes to you and he tells you, he's heard your complaints. They won't change Iron Fist's race. They won't make him asian.
But the SJWs are on his ass like hyenas and he needs that diversity quota otherwise he's gonna have to check his privilege on the way to the unemployment office.
So instead of changing Iron Fist from white to Asian, he's gonna need a semi-recognizable Asian Marvel hero with their own solo series and at least one acclaimed storyline.
Who do you name?
I think it's because the non-white people are used to further the main white lead? And they are portrayed in stereotypical secondary/tertiary roles. Those are some reasons I've seen why that configuration is disliked.
Once again. Do you understand how averages work? Until the world lives in in some sort of unified Robo-Socialist Utopia where everyone has the exact same home and provisions, then someone will be below the average. It just happens to be them. Boo hoo.
You know, I wonder if there's a story from real world history that sort of echos that narrative.
>Get the rights of Namor sorted out cast someone like a muscular Daniel Henney
>Get a Shang-Chi property up and running. A Kung-Fu spy movie, that deals with family, revenge and redemption.
First, that statement belittles the tens of thousands of Asian Americans that have worked and continue to work in the American movie industry, along with other media industries, pic fucking related.
Second, the Chinese market is the biggest movie-watching market in the world right now, and film making is changing in a HUGE way to appease them, which shouldn't even be necessary since they already have a multibillion dollar movie industry.
Third, why are you the one demanding the change instead of the ethnic group you're defending, if the problem of bad representation is apparently so egregious? If there was really that much motivation behind Asian leads, the community would rally behind any positive representation they can get and force change in the only language that matters, their money.
Have you seen Into the Badlands? Its a fucking great martial arts show staring an Asian lead, and you might appreciate that all the bad guys are white, while all the good guys are some shade of brown. If you haven't been receptive to it, and other properties in the same vein, you have no fucking right to complain, because people are trying to market towards you and you're here complaining about there needing to be change instead of supporting the actual new blood shows trying to make it happen WITHOUT changing established properties.
But they're not erasing or caricaturing anyone by depicting a character as true to the source material. Avatar and Dragonball Z, Mandarin, that's making it the present. But Iron Fist, isn't.
>Herc and Cho will never make it to the big screen, or small screen, or any screen.
Fuck you I'm not counting the Ultimate Cartoons probably for the best.
This is all the more frustrating, because I actually agree what you and others are saying on the #AAIronFist are saying regarding Asian/Asian American representation, but see
Making Danny anything other than white guy doesn't make any sense for the character. You would have to change A LOT for that "Americanized K'un-Lunian re-connecting back to his culture" theme to work.
>Square peg, round hole
>Third, why are you the one demanding the change instead of the ethnic group you're defending, if the problem of bad representation is apparently so egregious? If there was really that much motivation behind Asian leads, the community would rally behind any positive representation they can get and force change in the only language that matters, their money.
This statement belittles the thousands of asians who have been protesting about this from the start and implies that only whites/non-asians care about this issue.
About badlands, and new properties. Both changing old properties, and supporting new properties need to happen to turn this ship around and give Asians more stuff to do in tv. And just because people are complaining about this doens't mean they aren't watching Into the badlands or any other show, so I don't understand where youre even coming from.
>Danny is still pale blonde hair and blue eyes
>But his mom and/or dad says one word of Spanish before dying
>so I don't understand where youre even coming from
Then I'll spell it out for you as simply as I can.
Into the Badlands was made, therefore, there ARE properties being made to market towards people who think like you. This show exists entirely on its own, and doesn't need to change established properties that already have fan followings. Everybody wins and, hopefully, ITBL has enough of a following to stick around for as long as possible.
And then people like you come in and fuck up this win-win scenario. "Its not good enough" you say. As if the characters of Danny Rand and Sunny can't exist in the same universe. Instead of trying to build up a currently syndicated show, expand its fanbase and make your voice heard in a positive way that matters, you demand that something has to be taken away from someone else. Why?
Theres a giant wealth of content made for and by white people each year. They make up 30% of the world's media each year and 90% of american media. For a fair balance, some properties will need to be retooled to fit an even wider audience than just white people.
>It would satisfy both camps
Not really. At best it'd dissatisfy a good amount of the camp that don't want him changed. I don't know SJWs feelings on Halfiies reclaiming their quasi-roots.
There has never been a live action iron fist tv show. This is not asking to change the comics or his representation in cartoons. all it does is impact the cinematic universe moving forward. In no way does this ruin an established character any more than the different MCU interpretations of Hawkeye, Ultron, and Falcon.
Source for labor demographics in Hollywood.
Also, your third point is victim blaming at best. You act as if Asian Americans hold such great power over entertainment in the US, and we just aren't using it and doing this to you out of sheer spite. And don't just say money, hurr durr. You can't throw money at something that doesn't exist.
How can the community rally with something that rarely, if ever shows up? People are already rallying with Fresh Off the Boat and Into the Badlands. FOTB got a second season going, so does Badlands. Great, I'll turn on my TV and watch some more and watch reruns if they play. How do I give money to a TV show? Fresh Off the Boat doesn't run some kind of fucking Patreon.
So movies then. So how do we rally with Asian American representation in movies? Measure by ticket sales. Alright, shit, I'll buy multiple tickets and get my friends and family to watch this hypothetical movie.
Well first you'd have to have an Asian-American male leading star for people like me to actually throw our hypothetical money at. And I haven't seen an Asian American male LEAD in a very long time. Now who do I throw my money at? Where do I wire my paycheck to?
Making Iron Fist Asian isn't going to change the fact that the guys signing his checks and writing his scripts are all white.
Race swapping is just lipservice to hide the fact that the staff behind these things is still monochromatic. Oh but at least they're trading occasionally talented white guys for shitty hipsters that feel guilty, but are still just as "privileged" as their predecessors. That's...something I guess.
Am I supposed to be mollified by the fact that they're profiteering and spreading just as much ignorance but profess guilt over it?
We need more McDuffies. This isn't the way to get them.
Me and what film studio? what funds? Oh all the big studios are white owned? Oh in order to build credibility and notoriety in the film industry I'll have to make movies that appeal to the status quo?
Oh, your argument is self defeating.
>Then I'll spell it out for you as simply as I can.
Man you're forgetting that for these casuals Silk is the first Asian American superhero.
They won't realize the characters and properties exist if there's no controversy or huge media push behind them.
Black people played stereotypical roles in hollywood for a long time. But as black actors and actresses gained notoriety for those roles they gained more money and power to make their own media. Black people are one of the highest represented groups on television (12% of lead characters compared to 16% of the populace of america) because they worked their asses off to get there.
Giving asians rolls like this allows them to start working down that same path. If the problem is there arent enough jobs for asians in film, hiring asian actors for screen helps alleviate that.
>This is not asking to change the comics or his representation in cartoons
In b4 someone posts that Nick Fury Jr comic summary. Because as we all know Marvel NEVER changes shit up to match the movies.
>There has never been a massive shift in Hollywood based on the popularity of low budget movies that appease a certain niche that was going untapped before
Ironically thats where Exploitation films came from in the first place.
>Source for labor demographics in Hollywood.
I call it talent. Sure, executive positions are going to be the last to change, but if they don't make the best decision for their company, their company will suffer when they leave compared to companies that were objective when it came to hiring better talent. If Asians want to hold more media executive positions, they have to make damn sure they are that objectively better talent
>How can the community rally with something that rarely, if ever shows up?
Oh gee fucking wiz, I don't know, maybe use this new-fangled invention called the internet? Oh, but if only there were certain locations where there were receptive people to the idea of pushing Asian-led, diverse shows as hard as possible. You could call it....Stumblr? Naw, that's fucking dumb.
Oh well, guess our only solution is to change shit that people already like, I mean what else are we going to do?
>Black people played stereotypical roles in hollywood for a long time.
>Implying they stopped. Concussion is getting snubbed for a reason.
>But as black actors and actresses gained notoriety for those roles they gained more money and power to make their own media.
Not as much as you'd think. Danny Glover still can't get his Haiti movie funded. And, speaking as a massive bleeabo, you've got an entire pacific rim of countries with movie industries. I care more about Stephen Chow getting another movie made than I do Whedon, at any rate.
The infrastructure is already there, so it's not really the same thing. And besides that, it still doesn't actually explain why changing a preexisting property is a part of the solution.
Adapt Shang Chi instead. Do the series about ALL the Immortal Weapons. There are alternatives beyond the race swap that seem like they work but you guys keep saying it's not enough and not why.
Yes mine is self defeating because I'm the one admitting defeat and implying that the only way these properties could be successful and for minorities to gain more prominence is by piggybacking off pre-existing names and properties even if doing so makes no sense when looking at the source material.
The implication is that I'm already watching these shows. So are you telling me to buy DVD box sets that don't exist yet? Rewatching it on Netflix and Hulu? Okay, a little odd, but sure, I'll even rewatch them on Hulu and Netflix.
Objectively...better talent. Talent is subjective. How do you objectively find better talent? If white people don't want to cast Asians then they'll find any reason to. Talent is subjective. Jai Courtney and Sam Worthington are objectively talentless...to me. No, they're not fucking objectively talentless, they're subjectively fucking talentless to me. But someone thought they had talent, so they were cast in million-dollar Hollywood productions.
There's no objectivity about it.
Nobody is paying attention to the idea of Asian-led, diverse shows. Nobody is, nobody will. You know what apparently gets your attention and the attention of a bunch of whiners on /co/? When we attach to "well-known" properties. THAT gets attention. And it does, and it works. You know wouldn't get a single article? #MoreAsians
Stephen Chow is one of my absolute favorite directors and I want Danny Rand to stay white.
Only barely. The way it goes is
Marvel wants to base Ultimate Nick Fury on SLJ
SLJ, being a nerd, but also being smart, says "Okay you can use my likeness so long as I get to play him on screen."
Marvel agrees, MCU happens, SLJ Fury.
MCU is successful "Shit we need to make 616 more like the comics too"
>There's no objectivity about it.
I'm talking about executive positions. Directors and Producers. People who actually make decisions about who to cast, and yes, there's a fuck ton of objectivity when it comes to who leads a studio better than others
>Nobody is paying attention to the idea of Asian-led, diverse shows. Nobody is, nobody will.
Then you've fucking failed at the best way to change the industry because they exist and you could be helping to push them instead of "getting attention," but since that's apparently all you're really after, expect no more from me. I'm going to fucking bed.
Im implying they got more power to make roles that weren't stereotypical. Not that the stereotypical ones went away.
Also its not perfect for black people obviously. They still need more opportunities in film. They just have more than Latinos, and Latinos have more than Asians, and everyone has more opportunity to make their own media than natives. Black people are under privileged in most areas. Film is like the one place they've seen the most improvement.
LOL okay. Guess I'll just keep rewatching Into the Badlands and Fresh Off the Boat, pushing the industry into great change. I'll be sure to buy the DVD box set when it comes out and maybe even wear some merchandise around.
Here's just the statistics for women's media.
Here's statistics for film
Maybe if you hashtagged that instead of the race lifting they'd listen.
Look, I get it. Iron Fist needs to be Asian because you think the name is bigger and you can get more face time from controversy than you could otherwise.
But...look at Falcon Cap. Steve is ALREADY coming back. Race swaps are temporary. And even though Into the Badlands might not ever be as big as the MCU, that's permanent. Quality, original works starring minorities endure in a way that these fad swaps never can.
Hell remember when Superman was played by an Asian? We're never getting that again.
Yeah, but that statistic is counting every single speaking role as one example. in order for total fair holistic representation, that should be the way it is for women who are lead characters.
Thats its own problem. And also don't pretend western beauty standards don't exist for men.
Another problem is that the association that gathers that kind of statistic is one of the only that do and theyre entirely focused on women's representation, so a male equivalent is just hard to find unfortunately.
I find it funny that people assume that the SJW or #AAIronfist idiots would ever take the time to ever read a Iron Fist comic or any comics in general.
Hell that is a giant pet peeve of mine. People claiming that they are SUPER FANS or that their favorite character is [insert superhero here] but have never bothered to even attempt reading some of the source material.
Why is it so hard to just say "I like this character, but don't know much about them". Just don't act like you are a super-fan that knows what they are talking about all the time.
WHY ARE THEY ALWAYS LYING?
>A show has more reason to keep the character Asian.
I'd argue a show would just not get made before that.
On a semi related note, what's the blasian version of Ebony and Ivory? Ebony and Jade?
I was going to say that actually seems pretty in line with actual statistics but then otherworldly made that a load of bullshit. Which I should've known.
Depends if Latinas are identified. They could be lumping the white Latinos in with the regular Whites. But that still leaves it below the accurate number by two or three percent I think.
But people love fetishizing women of various races.
Kamala is fun and has qualities beyond her race and gender. Carol belongs in a garbage can
I am an American citizen. I do not live in Asia, nor do I speak the language, nor do I identify with their upbringing and way of life. I want to watch Asian-Americans like myself, with backgrounds similar to mine, and I want to see roles where characters like me are afforded some kind of dignity.
But I guess that's all a joke to you anyways.
I call troll.
I still have the capacity to operate within this reality. I'm not going to aim for gold. Let's be real. I'm aiming for the tiniest step of having an AA male being cast in a lead role.
Which is apparently very tough, considering the opposition.
It always goes in this circle. Do you all read from the same book? You sound like you read a script.
>representation is not a right
No shit Sherlock. If it was, then all the hullabaloo wouldn't exist. How is that some kind of rebuttal? I have to fight for dignified representation in my own country.
Representation is a right. That's what a Representative democracy means. That's how minorities don't get trampled by the majority.
Anyways, you act like you are the sole representative of the 95.3 percent of the rest of the population. You're not.
That's the only reason there's even any pressure. You can blame it on the jews or tumblr or whatever you choose, but it's a mixture of people who think that this is the right thing to do.
I'm white, and I'm totally down for more Asians in television and movies. I don't feel threatened by it.
Representation in entertainment isn't a right.
I'm not white, I'm cool with more Asians in American shit too, but I don't like race swapping a character to do that, especially for dumb reasons like only asians should do kung fu.
Iron fist had to be retooled so many times (much like other comics that had their origins in the 70's) Does it really matter what they do with it?
The first issues were not good, and anyone that says they were, either have never read them or are straight up lying.
If someone posted something brand new that was identical to the original iron fist, it would straight up suck.
When it comes to elected officials yes.
And how exactly is it the "right thing to do" when forcing others to do work for you.
If you want to create shows with asians as leads go right ahead. I;m not stopping you. Go right ahead.
nah ya moron. That's how public appeal works.
You act like this first time this has happened. People want something to change they chime up, if enough people want it to change. It changes.
you're like some kind of retard baby. "Make your own movies hurrr!"
Or instead because I don't want to make movies (I like owning a business instead) I can chose to support or not support things with a large group of vocal people.
In fact, if enough of my clients complained about something. It would change very quickly. They don't have to own a similar business to get me to change something.
I just want to remind you. You're an idiot.