So Marvel recently reprinted "Alias" as "Jessica Jones: Alias" due to the Nexflix show being a hit. Reading the comic made him realize something:
>Has an arc that shows what kind of relationship JJJ had with Mattie Franklin. Saying he saw her as daughter and adopted her to compensate for his relationship with his son the wolf-man. JJJ and Jessica Drew lose their shit when Mattie goes missing.
>Arc has a follow-up 4 years later in The Loner mini-series, where Mattie is a lead character and redeemed her from John Bryne's shit writing. Marvel editors liked how the book turned out and other creators wanted to use characters like Mattie, according to writer C. B. Cebulski. Even he wanted to use her again, but the higher ups at Marvel tells them to hold off.
>Mattie goes into limbo for two years before being kidnapped(again) and later killed in Grim Hunt. Except this time JJJ and Jessica Drew act like she doesn't even exist. Readers ask if they were ever going to see a reaction from them and Marvel tells them to fuck off.
>Around this day Mayday's upcoming book gets canned and Marvel announces Anya Corazon(who already failed as a stand-lone character back in 2004) as the new Spider-Girl with a new solo. Putting Anya in front as the inheritor to both the Spider-man and the Spider-woman legacy, which was originally Mattie's role.
>Steals Julia Carpenter's costume from her and gives it to Anya to make more marketable. Shoehorning Julia as the new Madame Web. Which was a useless role that had not place in the Spider-mythos and stripped Julia of her personality. In favor of making her a perfect clone of the first Madame Webb, to add insult to injury.
>Anya series only lasts 8 issues before getting canned due to poor sales. Shorter than both her first series and Mattie's solo. Pathetic.
>Anya then becomes a background character, who falls in and out of limbo. Even the writer of the Web Warriors doesn't give a shit about her.
Eat a dick Joe Q.
>waaaaaah my favorite C-list character gets fucked with by editorial
Are you new to the Big Two or something?
You remind me of spergs who freak out over those other two Batgirls that existed and think that somehow means they should be catered to by publishers
Its not that they didn't like them. They wouldn't have let Cebulski throw Mattie a bone or let Mayday's series last as long as it did if they didn't.
Its that Anya was kind of a creator's pet of Joe Q. She was created to be a big time latino superhero and failed the first time they pushed her.
So out of desperation he canned Mayday's Spider-Girl book so it wouldn't draw attention away from Anya and gave her the Spider-girl title to make her marketable.
Writers were interested in using Mattie after The Loners mini-series and she had the potential to overshadow Anya if she was under the right writer. She was the niece and adopted daughter of J Johan Jameson who hates Spider-man and masked vigilantes in general. Yet Mattie was a Spider-man fangirl and a masked vigilante herself. This is actually a pretty interesting dynamic and Joe knew this. So he fridged her and didn't have her relationship with Jameson brought up again.
Joe was just willing to throw three other Spider-Women under the bus for Anya. That's why I'm angry.
Oh you mean Cassandra Cain and Stephen Brown. They are back in the books now. So they are not exactly fucked.
And Mayday is not a C-list character. Her series is longest reading female Marvel title.
You know, I'm a marveldrone but, can I say something?
Why? Just why should we just get with it when Marvel decides to screw characters we like, jsut because they don't earn 100k from sheep that will buy anything with Wolverine on it? And if your argument is "because they don't make money", then it's not an argument - if company cares only about money and not having healthy relationship with their consumer, then cosnumer has right to demand what they like and not care about the sales/ If company doesn't care about the consumers and if they enjoy their books, why should consumers care if company is making money?
>So out of desperation he canned Mayday's Spider-Girl book so it wouldn't draw attention away from Anya and gave her the Spider-girl title to make her marketable.
She had exactly 20 speaking appearances prior to becoming "Spider-Girl" in 2010, and a handful of other, single-panel appearances. That was spread across 6 years and most of it happened as a supporting character in "Ms. Marvel" in 2007/8, with the bulk of the rest of it being as part of the Amazing Fantasy anthology of 2004/5, where she got 6 issues. She also supported 2 minis as part of that story. Beyond that she appeared in a Doctor Strange mini, for one page, talking to Iron Fist about how they both got beat up that night, in 2006.
>Writers were interested in Mattie after The Loners and she had the potential to overshadow
I mean, given that nobody even used Anya from 2008-2010...
Saying Anya was created to be a big-time latino superhero... well, I guess every creator wants that? But I doubt it's what they thought would seriously happen, and as you can see, the first time they pushed her, she did fail... so they left her alone for years until they were looking at what to do about the falling sales of the Spider-Girl title.
Spider-Girl is a legacy title. It's something you've almost got to have; the character who takes on a name to emulate someone truly and universally accepted as great. There are sales reasons, there are trademark reasons, and there are prestige and story reasons. Mayday had a vocal fanbase, but not a large one; it was worth trying a new character with the title, because the title was going to be cancelled anyway on the sales it was making. The fact it got as many reprieves and one-shots and minis as it eventually did suggests they were really very serious about making Mayday's fans happy, but in the end, there just weren't enough of them, and in 2009 Marvel made the decision to finish up and move on.
That was seven years ago. Why are you still mad.
>why should consumers care if company is making money?
If the company is not making money, it will fold. No company = no consumers.
> then cosnumer has right to demand what they like and not care about the sales
Nobody has taken that right from you. You're exercising it now. It's just that nobody is listening, because no company = no consumers.
>your argument is "because they don't make money", then it's not an argument
This absolutely is an argument. The only reason those characters were developed - the popular and unpopular alike - was to make money from publishing their stories. If they don't make money, you publish something else.
That's why there's so many comic book characters. A lot of them don't make money.
>I mean, given that nobody even used Anya from 2008-2010...
I assume you meant Mattie. She wasn't used during that time because Marvel told writers to hold off on her and Ricochet. As already mentioned.
> the title was going to be cancelled anyway on the sales it was making.
No, she had another ongoing that year which was suddenly resolicited as a miniseries. I wonder why...
Stephanie Brown has been back in mainline for almost two years and after Batman Eternal she's only had infrequent guest appearances in Catwoman and Batgirl. Catwoman's run where she appeared ended so she won't be back there and Batgirl's writing team is god awful and writes her like an idiot.
Cass only just came back so what happens to her is to be seen, but editorial clearly likes her more right now than Stephanie because she has major focus in Batman & Robin Eternal
And I would like to add that again, Anya was a failed character and Spider-Girl wasn't a best seller. So explain to me how that was good as business decision? Even DeFalco mentioned this and he was reason in the end.
>I assume you meant Mattie.
No, I mean Anya. She didn't appear after her Ms. Marvel run (in which she was depowered) until 2010, again as Arana, in the Nomad 4-issue miniseries and associated titles. Later that year she was given the Spider-Girl name and the Arachne costume following the events of Grim Hunt and the death of Mattie Franklin (whose previous appearance was 2008's Loners, after being a drug-source and implied prostitute in 2004's Alias). Mattie's own codename, Spider-Woman, hadn't been available since 2004 either - when Jessica Drew returned to the forefront in New Avengers, so she couldn't take that one.
>I wonder why...
Because the sales were terrible. Would you be this mad if Anya had become Arachne and the sales of her titles and Mayday's were still the same? That's what you really need to ask yourself here, because it doesn't seem like you believe Mayday's name transferring to Anya helped sales there any (in fact, that's the central thesis of your "karma" thing), which suggests either you believe Anya couldn't raise sales (putting her in the same boat as Mayday) or that transferring the name somehow depressed sales of the 2010-11 Spider-Girl series?
>If the company is not making money, it will fold.
Why should I care? I haven't written a contract anywhere that I'm obligated to care about company's well-being. I just want good stories, if the company is not interested in providing them, then I don't care if they flop, I will buy somewhere else.
Besides, Big Two are so set they would have to actively try to flop. They control most of the market, they have backing of big corporations, they can afford to be experimental, to try new things.
>This absolutely is an argument. The only reason those characters were developed - the popular and unpopular alike - was to make money from publishing their stories. If they don't make money, you publish something else.
>That's why there's so many comic book characters. A lot of them don't make money.
Not really that true, when you consider big two often make stupid decisions that fuck up the characters who aren't already big stars, only to keep that small, limited number on top.
>Dan Didio wanted to kill Dick Grayson, one of most if not the most popular member of Batfamily in Infinite Crisis, because he felt Batfamily needs to be only Batman and Robin and Batgirl. Geoff Johns had to kill Superboy in the story, his favorite character, to talk Didio out of killing Dick.
> Marvel in the 90s canceled Thunderstrike and War Machine, because they were outselling respectively thor and Iron Man. Somebody thought that by killing these books sales for their parent series will skyrocket. They didn't.
Big Two doesn't care about making money. They care about making money but only with the characters they want you to make, the others are considered token gestures at best or disposable bait to get you buy "the chosen ones" like everyone else. This is why Avengers are cannibalizing on lesser teams, absorbing most popualr characters - so that the readers will move to the Avengers, so they can later dump that character into the garbage with rest of their old team.
How was making Iron Man black a good decision? How was giving Spider-Man's costume an all-black look and then making it alive a good decision? How was bringing Bucky back from the dead a good decision?
We only remember the things that stick. The rest of it sinks away.
Explain to me how it would have been a good business decision to keep publishing Mayday books that didn't sell either. If your choice is writing off losses on a title for 12 months and ending it because nothing has changed and sales haven't picked up, or writing off losses and trying to change it and potentially having to still end it, which do you pick?
>Why should I care?
You tell me, we're in a thread about a character you clearly care about.
>Big Two doesn't care about making money.
Yes they do. Now you're just being retarded. Do you know a company has a legal duty to shareholders to maximize profits? That's right, they're legally obligated to care about making money.That's why they publish popular characters, and it's why they try and put less popular characters with more popular characters. Because then they might both sell.
Pretty tricky with the tail-end of MC2, though. They already stopped publishing MC2 books other than Spider-Girl because those didn't sell either. What were they going to do? Bring her into the main continuity to keep a few whiners happy?
But then what do they do about the apparently equal number of Anya fans?
If only there were some kind of Spider-Verse that could make everybody happy. Except you, you sourpuss. You'll never be happy.
>Why should I care? I haven't written a contract anywhere that I'm obligated to care about company's well-being. I just want good stories
Thanks for the laugh, I needed that. You fucking entitled child
There's so much shit in this post that is just flat-out wrong, so I'm not gonna bother wasting my time going point-by-point humiliating you.
But you're gonna sit there at you're computer and actually try and tell me Geoff Johns' favorite character is Conner Kent? Get the fuck out of here
>Because the sales were terrible.
It got made into a mini before it even got published. And Anya's sales were far worse.
>How was making Iron Man black a good decision? How was giving Spider-Man's costume an all-black look and then making it alive a good decision? How was bringing Bucky back from the dead a good decision?
Black Iron man? As for the others: Daredevil changed his costume from yellow to red and it didn't hurt sales. DC brought Jason Todd back to life and it didn't hurt sales. The past has shown that those kind of things are not a death sentences.
>Explain to me how it would have been a good business decision to keep publishing Mayday books that didn't sell either. If your choice is writing off losses on a title for 12 months and ending it because nothing has changed and sales haven't picked up, or writing off losses and trying to change it and potentially having to still end it, which do you pick?
Didn't say it would be good move. But it would be a better move than launching a new Spider-Girl series right after the last one, with a character that sold worse in the past and wasn't very popular. I remember one guy on a Spidey board saying he didn't know who Anya was until Grim Hunt.
Costume changes are not even close to the same thing as a relaunch with a new character. Don't tell me you actually thought that was a salient point ...
>Black iron man?
Fucking kek stop acting like you know anything about comic publishing history and editorial stunts, because you've made it crystal clear you have no clue what you're talking about. Every post you make just digs yourself deeper. Probably should just quit while you're waaaay behind.
>You tell me, we're in a thread about a character you clearly care about.
Not really, I'm just some guy who stumbled upon it and saw an argument he wanted to talk about. I had some of my favorite C-listers being screwed over by Marvel, but neither Anya or Mattie were on that list.
> Do you know a company has a legal duty to shareholders to maximize profits? That's right, they're legally obligated to care about making money.That's why they publish popular characters, and it's why they try and put less popular characters with more popular characters. Because then they might both sell.
And I am naive one here?
First of all, the company has to regularly present a business plan that is based on the predictions what will make money. This is why the synergy became such a thing since MCU exploded. However, there is a downside to it. If something strays from the business plan, then it makes people who created it look incompetent. Even and maybe especially if it makes money. If it makes more money than you predicted, while thing you told company to focus on makes less, then it means you made a mistake. This is why they cancelled War Machine and Thunderstrike in the 90s - because the plan was to focus on Iron Man and Thor and these two outselling them would make people who made the plan look incompetent. So they cancelled them in hope to boost sales of books the plan approved. It's also why they put Runaways on a mean-spirited murderfest book - because they have vocal fan-following demanding new series and if it's voice reached the higher ups, it wouldn't matter how many people would actually buy Runaways book - the people who decided to not publish one would look incompetent. So they threw two popualr characters into a meantgrinder and subjected to two years of awful shit (which will likely continue in A-Force, which already looks like it's going to be all about how Arena broke Nico and nothing else) to alienate fans and have something to tell boss they tried
Spider-Girl's (Mayday) books dropped in story quality as time went on.
It started as a great mix of her civilian life and super stuff along with a nice colorful cast on both sides. Eventually most of the cast stopped appearing and they started doing shit like class president stories and turned her ex into a asshole out of no where and had her date a self-insert.
>Saying Anya was created to be a big-time latino superhero... well, I guess every creator wants that?
Is it just me or do latino heroes generally don't get much support from the tumblr crowd? The only one I can think of that gets recognition is MAC, but that's mainly because she's a lesbian and a total bitch.
>That's why they publish popular characters, and it's why they try and put less popular characters with more popular characters. Because then they might both sell.
or they want to use less popular, new characters as disposable bait. They create new characters and teams in order to bait new customers, who are not interested in old big names because of the confusing continuity and long backstories and whatever else. New blood comes in, the team is successfull or not, at one point they cancel it for one reason or another. Then they throw most popular characters into Avengers book so at least some part of the fandom follows them. Then they spent time showing them how cool and awesome all these old guys have and how lame their favorites are comapred to them, so they can make these fans support these old A-Lsiters and buy their books. And then they take the c-listers they used as a bait and throw them into the trash.
And just in case somebody says I have no proof - remmeber that the official reason why Bob Harrass lost a job as EIC in Marvel was because he refused to make X-Men comics more in line with first movie roster and the books did not raise as much money as predicted in the company plan.
Anya a cute though, which is more than I can say for John Byrne's jailbait.
>John Byrne in charge of writing a teenage girl who doesn't want to fuck an adult man
That time she was sewn into a skin monster.
When the first X-Men movie was coming out, Marvel was still in Chapter 11 protection. Not meeting his financial targets is, indeed, a good reason to fire someone under those circumstances.
Oh that's true, but of course the LoL couldn't ever leave their alt universe, and she was dead there.
Didn't read them.
>War Machine and Thunderstrike
War Machine was cancelled because after 24 issues they discovered nobody wanted to read about "Eidolon Warwear", but also because he's a supporting character from a none-too-popular comic book. Iron Man just doesn't get high sales and hasn't for a very long time.
Thunderstrike was presumably cancelled because of low sales as well, though if not I would argue that it was eventually rolled into the Thor title to try and salvage the legacy title from poor sales, given that he was killed off in 1995 (when the crash had been knocking 15% annually off the market as a whole for 2 years, and would continue to do so until 1998) prior to the decision to reboot all non-X-Men titles with low sales (anything that wasn't Spider-Man or the Hulk). I don't have the comparison figures for Thor and Thunderstrike from 1994/5 to hand, but I'll bet you that Thor was still selling to a more solid audience and the plan was to draw the Thunderstrike readers back over, reducing overheads from producing two competing titles and increasing sales on the surviving title.
>the people who decided to not publish one would look incompetent
Nobody gives a shit what fans think/want, but actually they secretly do and base their decisions solely on that? Make up your mind, anon.
>And I am naive one here?
You can't even seem to get your own conspiracy theory straight, so yes.
They were about the same.
>Black Iron man?
Boy, you really are a casual. Don't you remember? You even brought the guy up.
You also missed the point here, which is that they try all kinds of shit, but you can only remember the things that stuck and the things that personally pissed you off.
> it would be a better move
No, doing the same thing that got you No New Sales for years on end is financial suicide. Doing something that is new, but ultimately fails as well, is at least trying to avert that.
>I remember one guy on a Spidey board saying he didn't know who Anya was until Grim Hunt.
Well, given she had about 30 appearances from about 6 years/4.5k unique issues of various Marvel comics from her debut up to then, that's not really surprising. I guess he wasn't a Ms. Marvel fan either.
>They were about the same.
Really? They actually bothered with another on-going. While Anya was reduced to teen side-kick after her first series flopped.
>Boy, you really are a casual. Don't you remember? You even brought the guy up.
You must have gotten me confused with another poster. Are you referring to when Rhodes was wearing the Ironman suit back in the 80s? That wasn't suppose to stick and Iron Man readers were familiar with him. Same can't be said about Anya to Spidey readers.
>You also missed the point here, which is that they try all kinds of shit, but you can only remember the things that stuck and the things that personally pissed you off.
And all those things you mentioned are not even comparable though. Which was my point.
>No, doing the same thing that got you No New Sales for years on end is financial suicide. Doing something that is new, but ultimately fails as well, is at least trying to avert that.
Giving Anya another solo is the same exact thing as that. Well...it was actually worse since they took away everything unique about her and shoehorned her into the Spider-mythos with little preface.
>Well, given she had about 30 appearances from about 6 years/4.5k unique issues of various Marvel comics from her debut up to then, that's not really surprising. I guess he wasn't a Ms. Marvel fan either.
That pretty much shows it was a bad move. One of the reasons why Silk is successful is because Spidey readers were very familiar with her before she was given a solo. With Anya, she was just randomly given one right after coming out of limbo.
Her main baddies were two sisters called Flesh and Bones.
Lots of body horror, especially when it came to the latter, who was just skin, or something.
Anyway, the sewed Mattie into her so that she could, I don't know, take over her body, or feed off it, or something.
Byrne made a enemy called Flesh and Bone. They were two anorexic supermodel who got a curse put on them so they could be thinner. One became a living skeleton and the other became nothing but skin who can suck people up through her mouth and drain their lifeforce.
This is probably the most disturbing Marvel characters John Byrne ever made.
>Nobody gives a shit what fans think/want, but actually they secretly do and base their decisions solely on that? Make up your mind, anon
They don't, but the people above them don't even know what the fans want. So if the voice demanding Runaways book would reach them, their minds would go "there is demand on product we are not making because this guy told us we should make other product isntead" and they won't care about how big that demand actually is, they're jsut going to fire the guy who told them to not make that product.
Which is why Marvel has been so adamnt to destory Runaways in 2013 and 2014. 2015 was surprisingly okay but now we're back to raining shit on them, starting tomorrow.
>Warmachien and Thudnerstrike
It doesn't matter if they were selling poorly, they were still outselling Thor and Iron Man. Anyone with clear mind would in that situation cancell book that does worse and keep one that does better. They did the opposite, because Thor and Iron Man were chosen to be company icons, even though nobody was buying them.
>I don't have the comparison figures for Thor and Thunderstrike from 1994/5 to hand, but I'll bet you that Thor was still selling to a more solid audience and the plan was to draw the Thunderstrike readers back over
So you're talking out of your ass.
I would but I don't have the issues
Have this as an apology
Remember that Byrne pissed off Quesada and Bendis more than a decade and a half ago. Back when Kevin Smith's Daredevil was delayed, one of the reasons was that a parent of Quesada's died (either his mom or his dad, I can't remember) and Byrne remarked on AOL something like "if the book was on a reasonable schedule to begin with, the funeral shouldn't have been a problem).
And then at the time Alias was about to start it was hyped up about having a sex scene with Luke Cage. Byrne was livid about them using superhero characters for adult stuff and Bendis got kinda pissed off at Byrne's dismissal.
So if they had an opportunity to shit on a Byrne character it wouldn't surprise me if they took it.
>Byrne was livid about them using superhero characters for adult stuff
Jack Kirby might have a thing or two to say about that.
>Manchild detective flavor
>Government agent flavor
>Old psychic woman flavor
>Future Child flavor
>Rock symbiote flavor
I'm a fucking casual and these are ones coming to head.
as a Mayfag I don't especially bare any grudge to Anya
but I think we can all agree this Gwen shit needs to end. May and Anya at least have distinct personalities. Gwen just apes shit and is sung to high heavens
>but I think we can all agree this Gwen shit needs to end
Spider-Gwen is fine...I guess. Only has a cool costume going for her and that's that.
They crossed the line with Gwenpool, though.