I was wondering, how do japanese citizens (all categories) view lolita? I know it's like here by the fact that some like it and think it's ok to be eccentric and some don't understand/don't like it/... or even hate on it, buti was wondering what kind of stereotypes they put on it. Like here in Europe if a girl dress all black at school,idiots are gonna assume she eats cockroaches,pray Satan and shit.
I heard at some point on a translated 2chan discussion that they viewed lolita like we view emos (cutters), i also saw somewhere that lolitas were seen as "so arrogant" for wearing "such clothes".
The rest of the time it's just the same thing ("weird", "mental problems" and "trying to be a tacky princess" at worst)
Also general differences between here and Japan regarding the alt fashion. (such as "rules" for fashions being much less present in Japan)
Its still weird there too by majority. Japanese arent too vocal about what they think in real life besides whispers to friends. most in Tokyo will ignore the existence because its the japanese way but a few may just stare without a word.
Some in Harajuku will think its cute and others in other areas will think theyre fatties or ugly.
Lolita is generally seen as something for spoiled teenagers with a princess complex and people are expected to grow out of it when they become adults and get a job/get married. Having weird self-involved hobbies as an adult is looked down on even harsher than it is in the west.
Not sure if it has the same sexual/daddy issues connotation over there, though. I'd also imagine that since Christianity is more of an exotic aesthetic preference that a religion in Japan, there's not as much scaremongering about goths and gothic imagery.
Fashion in Japan in fact does have rules, and possibly has more rules than western fashion. The birth of harajuku fashion is because people did not want to conform to the strict rules and expectations in daily life.
From pretty much birth, people of Japan are expected to conform, either through uniforms (beyond just school) or through personal style choices. It is an asset to fit in, rather than stand out.
This is why uniform culture is very prominent in Japan. Beyond school, there are uniforms for work, gym, group activities, outings with work members. Even men who enter a business job choose a dark colour, most often black suit for work. Even with all the colour varieties available for them to choose from at a department store, they choose black because they know everyone else will be also wearing black, thus blending in.
i noticed it's a general reaction to call someone ugly (or even fat) when they wear something they don't understand
i wonder why is that.
One day i tried to wear "normal" clothes (i usually was called the ugly duckling by catty girls and stuff gotta love high school) and they fawned over me saying that i was "so pretty like that" and shit. And i'm not even super ugly or fat by european standards or anything actually i'm totally average. Swaggy thug boys and muslim bitches would always scream about how my face was scary because it's apparently doll like in a Chucky way or even Sadako-like if i listen to them, i have pale skin and even have been asked "why don't you tan" by one of them.
One day a boy who always insulted me came to me and said i wasn't even really ugly but that it was my clothes. At some point i considered really abandoning it all,i felt ridiculous, i felt that maybe i WAS looking stupid and i felt less and less comfortable. But after hearing this ,i never took their opinions seriously.
I've read a couple of times before that lolita is seen as a fat girl fashion in Japan, at least compared to other altfashions. I can believe that, considering how large most lolita brands measurements are.
FYI, there's a thread on girlschan that was started within the past 48 hours titled "Those who like lolita fashion, let's discuss"
Right now I'm prioritizing chores and de-stressing myself on tea and vidya games. So if anybody wants to go ahead and translate the thread, be my guest. If nobody bites, I may come back later and churn out translations, but it's currently very low on my list of weekend goals.
Also, that thread is specifically calling on Japanese women who already like lolita fashion, to give their commentary. So the content obviously will not reflect the general, mainstream sentiments that Japanese folks will hold toward such a niche fashion like lolita. And of course like any image board it will have its share of shitposters.
The thing with Japan is that people don't talk to strangers in general, and if you do make friends they will just tell you what you want to hear. Some Japanese people like lolita, most don't care and some hate it but you'll never know anyway so just wear whatever you want, as long as it's appropriate and not to a serious event.
Mori girls are largely thought to be mentally unstable in Japan. Sounded random to me the first time I heard it, but it's a surprisingly common opinion. I can see where people like that would be attracted to the style, though, and I wear it myself.
Just a few from around the top of the page, I don't know how many comments people would be interested in reading.
>When I look at pictures of dolls and stuff, I think there's a beauty to that kind of fashion
>I guess I don't really feel the same charm from it on real people so much...
>But I think people should be able to do whatever they like in their private lives, so it's not like I think they should stop wearing it
>It looks embarrassing, but I think it's perfectly fine to enjoy indoors
>It's like a hobby, right?
>But once they take that outside it becomes a public nuisance
>Love looking at it(*´∀｀) Just don't have the courage to wear it!
>It's cute but so expensive and you're cut off from everything if you live in the countryside so I can only wear it sometimes(;_;)
>I compromise with stuff like axes [femme]...
>The design of the clothes is cute and I like to look at it but
>Most of the people walking around town wearing it are ugly fatties lol
I can do more if anyone wants, or someone else can.
My Japanese is pretty shit anymore, t b h, but:
"It's painful (to say this?) but as long as you're enjoying it indoors, I think it's totally fine.
It's like a hobby, right?
But when you do* it outside (*持ち出したら here means to "if you take (it) from where it belongs," lol) it's a nuisance to others."
Japanese people are total fucking squares, though, desu.
Itai is used the same way in general Japanese as it is in the lolita context, painful in the sense that the person is awful to look at and/or gives you secondhand embarrassment with their behavior.
>Yeah, that's right.
>I don't mind people wearing lolita if they're model-tier cute
>But in reality, the majority of lolitas have "korean face" and have short, stumpy figures.
>That is something that even the world would view sternly
^had some issues translating that last bit
I knew the short/chubby stereotype, but I was surprised by the ethnic thing here. I wonder if it's because there are so many Chinese lolitas in Japan. Or does anyone know if the whole "korean face" thing is a long-standing insult?
>It looks like Alice! I yearn for it!
>Yesterday a foreign lolita was in a drama and looked cute.
+229 -29 (pic related)
>tfw i know that feel
>not even super yellow teeth, but white stains from braces
This one's so sad. I always feel bad when people on /cgl/ post about how they feel too old, but I feel like the age-related societal expectations (especially for moms and women over 30) in Japan are a lot stricter.
>More than 10 years ago, I loved Mana-sama, but at that time I didn't have the courage to wear lolita..
>Now I'm an "aunty" around 30 with a kid on the way (or already a parent) so I can't...
>I wish I'd worn lolita back then
Weird. Many of my Japanese friends always talked about how jealous they were of my Korean friends' looks/style so I thought the stereotypes had kind of changed/become more positive, but then again, I guess I have no idea how old these people posting are.
A couple of my Korean acquaintances would comment on how Japanese people were ugly or backwards, too, though. Like the time one of them said so many Japanese people had messed up teeth because they're allowed to marry so close (like 2nd cousin, whereas that sort of thing is very strict in Korea) and were thus inbred.
In response to the Axes Femme comment:
>I don't wear it because I'm 31 years old... (not sure about this)
>The shop interior is so cute, sometimes I wander around aimlessy.
I watched a documentary about a mother who wore Decora on weekends sometimes. Her husband didn't mind. Either him or the grandma would watch the kid and she went into Tokyo in full decora.
Another interview had a Japanese woman admit she thought she would never find a husband wearing lolita, but she did. He accepts her for who she is, but she doesn't want to worry him about how much it costs.
Maybe these women were an exception?
While I was living in Japan, I only saw two lolitas. I only lived in Akita and Aichi prefecture though. I wasn't into lolita back then, and to be honest, I thought they were weirdos. I guess I am now the weirdo.
Those would seem to be exceptions, from what I know.
I lived in Tokyo/Yokohama for about a year and a half, and I met a couple of older lolitas (late 20s-early 30s) at AP releases. One of them openly mentioned she thought she'd never really settle down because she liked having her freedom. I think the other was a stay at home wife (no children), but I didn't come out and ask.
Lolita seemed like an anti-dude magnet in Japan, at least in my experience. I was never approached/nampa'd in lolita even though it would happen fairly frequently if I was in more casual clothing. Maybe it was because I was a foreigner, too, though.
can you explain more about mentally unstable mori girls? I do not have any mental issues, but I know a lot of mori girl who do!
Also most have this image that you have to live a amazing 'mori lifestyle', to be a mori girl.
While I always thought most japanese see it only as a fashion anyways. Like in some way those fashions are in a way still just dressing-up for them.
most people who wear alt fashions in japan are a bit crazy anyways. that's likely cause they're seen that way just due to wearing the fashion and due to the fact that many of them use it as an escape or to rebel.
I know about their general relations and history, didn't realize saying "korean face" was a thing in itself, though.
Have a creeper shot of some lolitas in Yokohama this past spring. I think there were a couple of foreigners with them, so if this was one of you gulls, I'm sorry for doing the very thing that gets complained about. I was with my family and too chicken to say anything.
ok thanks! I guess that also counts a bit for the west too than...
A lot of my lolita friend who like me grew out of the fashion. Turned out to have mental issues or some kind of a troubled childhood.
Mori seems like a really weird one to label as mental. The country seems obsessed with charming European things and mori just seems like a branch of that and doesn't seem nearly as out there as some others.
Basically what the other anon said, but I'd say nampa also has an added connotation of happening just in the street, club, etc. For example, guys will just stand around places like Shibuya/Omotesando and then go up to cute girls and try to get them to go on dates. It happens a lot.
From what I've seen, it draws a lot of girls who pull a "sweet, innocent little me" act and come across delusional as a result, covering up their bad/insecure points with a costume instead of actively working to improve themselves. Like the checklist says, "a mori girl has a pure aura about her or longs to have one." So it's more of a fashion in Japan to the extent that westerners tend to put more of a hippie-ish, environmentally conscious spin on the lifestyle (although that's a frequent stereotype in outsiders' view of the style in Japan as well), but there's still that pressure to maintain the ~mori girls r lovelies~ ideal which, IMO, causes more grief and embarrassment than it's worth, especially if you have to fake it.
Some excerpts from a random anon thread I stumbled across while searching up on it:
>I'm a mori girl
>But I think they tend to have a lot of mentally unbalanced traits
>I hear that a lot! How scary
>Feels like the best option might be to capture a girl who isn't a mori girl and make her wear it
(the thread was about how the style itself is their type, just not the girls who wear it, lol)
>Maybe it's best just to think of mori girls as mental cases...
>Every one of the mori girls I know is nuts
>Are you serious...
>I mean, there's degrees of mental illness, but
>[pic related] honestly feels like overkill
>If you dress in a way that's too disconnected from reality then you're going to get called a basketcase
>Supposing that 10% of women as a whole are mentally ill, I get the impression that the ratio of mental illness among mori girls must be closer to 70%
I'm reading this study by Terasa Younker: https://web.stanford.edu/group/sjeaa/journal111/Japan5.pdf
It explains everything about lolita in Japan. That study was written in 2011, the things may have changed. But Japan never changes imo.
>Supposing that 10% of women as a whole are mentally ill, I get the impression that the ratio of mental illness among mori girls must be closer to 70%
Fucking kek. I love the GC threads because, I dunno, it seems like the Japanese posters say stuff like this much more casually, if that makes sense. Even here, on /cgl/ people try to word things in such a way that it's not so blanket, and even then will get swamped with anons trying to disprove them.
this isn't completely untrue. i like mori fashion but i don't wear it regularly. i also have bad depression and anxiety.
but calling someone a basket case, nutjob etc. is rude af. i know this is 4chan, but people with depression are still normal people, not psychopaths.
2chan and its offshoot image boards like girlschan run because they allow Japanese people to vent out their true thoughts which they absolutely can't say in public without huge reprecussions. It sort of makes sense they'll be more blunt about stuff and not invest too much effort into arguing. There are a couple of posts there complaining "This is a thread intended for people who like the fashion, right?", I'm guessing in response to people who're calling it embarrassing, but they're not really directly responding in the way seagulls do when swarming on obvious bait posts.
Yes i think it's really interesting how they are diffeent from us in a way.
Their society is even stricter than ours and saying what you truly think there is like...rude? You must always sugarcoat things,... you must stay a kawaii polite person all the time. So on the internet they unleash this repressed part of them.
Meh. They generalize it or merely troll. I wouldnt take them seriously. Having mental issues such as depression or anxiety and such doesn't make you a fucking basketcase you are a normal human being. There are some psychos out there but gee, being depressed doesn't make you a psycho nutjob or something.
The comments from the Japanese boards are pretty interesting...
From personal experience living in Tokyo, I've seen a handful of lolita girls out and about outside of fashion districts, but I haven't talked to any. The farther they stray the more negative attention they seem to get. It sort of seems like a "there's a proper time and place for everything" vibe, and that lolita is seen as a visual inconvenience.
Lolita on trains sometimes get the same looks from older people as rude teenagers talking on their cell phones, like "I can't believe this child is doing that! IN PUBLIC!" But 99.9% of the time no one will actually SAY anything, so they try to just breathe through their teeth and pointedly avert their eyes. The people who like it, and the people who don't, will both have almost the same reaction. Silence and staring.
I asked some of my university friends what they think, and a couple made the point of "It is pretty, but it seems like someone like that is trying too hard to be a doll... it's sort of creepy and fake. I would be embarrassed if my friends dressed like that!"
And yeah, I'm seconding that it seems sort of like penis repellent to have a very individual and loud style in Japan. (But, Yokohama anon, being a foreigner also repels attention naturally because we're scary)
>lolita is seen as a visual inconvenience.
This is so fascinating to me. I understand how they would be irritated to be stuck near a lolita on a train or in a crowded area, but it seems like so many Japanese people get annoyed by the fact that they even have to see lolitas. Like even seeing someone stand out from the crowd sets their fremdschaemen into overdrive.
If I were in Japan, I think I'd wear lolita even more purely due to the fact that they get so buttmad over stupid shit. Just knowing that they were inwardly seething over something that doesn't affect them in any way would keep me laughing inside my head all day.
See, there's a problem with that. When it comes to a foreigner, I have no actual evidence of this mentality for lolita specifically, but it seems to be a general "but they don't know any better!" or "how interesting that they've taken a liking to something Japanese!" People are more likely to openly stare at you and get curious/excited about why you're wearing that. If they can gauge that you understand Japanese, or they're confident in their English ability, they might ACTUALLY ask you about your outfit, even in public. You're less likely to get an irritated reaction unless they dislike foreigners specifically. You're not a visual inconvenience anymore if you're foreign, you're rare, exotic, and even dangerous. It would be difficult to figure out if their reaction then is because of your foreignness or your lolita coord... I mean, you're still right, they get butthurt over every little thing and its ridiculous, but if you're a foreigner it probably wouldn't be the lolita that knocks them over the edge into crazyland.
It reminds me of that day i went out in lolita with a friend and that middle aged lady kept staring with such a mean look on the train. We were just quietly talking and sharing earphones to listen to music.
Later that day some muslim girl on the street was screaming at us "it's not halloween you ugly whores it's not fucking halloween" and her friends were nearly restraining her or else this crazy bitch would probably have tried to hit us or follow us.
And that made me think, why are people so bothered for something that doesnt even affect them? It's sad and hilarious at the same time.
In Japan mental illness is still highly stigmatized, so anyone with it is actually seen as unstable, nutjob etc. One of the highest teen suicide rates and they sweep it all under the carpet on the name of conformity and societal stability
Wow this is so sad.. no wonder so many youngsters kill themselves. Without proper support you can't do it and even less with being called such things. All that to fit in a perfect mold. fuck society really
>inb4 "wow u so edgy"
>It is interesting to note there is no male equivalent to the fashion
How new are ouji and kodona as fashions anyway? This article is intense, I really want to pick it apart. Regarding this particular subject, the article mentions that most Japanese lolitas' boyfriends are Goths and the closest thing to lolita for men is Aristocrat. I know this article is a little older but that makes this all the more interesting
I think it often depends on how the majority of people will react depending on location and age in Japan.
I am currently in a city that has a shopping hub for some of the more prominent brands and a nice second hand shop solely for lolita/alt fashions. When I go out while wearing lolita or other alt fashion, the most common reaction is that people will pretend to not notice something strange. If I receive looks of admiration or nice comments, it's usually from younger guys up to their late twenties and older women, oddly enough. Rarely do I get angry glares, but I tend to avoid wearing alt fashion too far outside of town. I'm usually only approached by people when I'm wearing clothing like Axes Femme or outed to be a foreigner ("free English practice!"). This is just my personal experience, though.
If you ventured to the Osu Kannon or Sakae areas in Nagoya on weekends/nights/holidays, there are usually a few. Today, I counted 6 or 7 (it is a holiday).
I think this anon nailed it. Most people in Japan will never tell you if they admire it, hate it or seriously don't care to your face or in public. If you ask directly, they'll probably say something nice.
It's less of a drama and more like a really long commercial/tv movie. Idk the name (I can't read japanese) but you can watch it here, no subs though
The girl is called Taylor R, she's a model but apparently she's branching out into acting.
I remember reading one researcher who used endless Bodyline pictures as examples of lolita fashion. Clearly she didn't know what the shit she was talking about.
I wouldn't be surprised really. Also I read one scholarly article that claimed that Misako was 34.
You can't really fix the part about gums though. I have perfectly healthy teeth, no cavities, floss everyday, brush twice a day, etc. and my gums are mainly pink but have a weird dark area. It's on the part the lip covers and I asked my dentist but apparently it's just genetics
I'm assuming you know that the word "kodona" comes from a mistranslation of an interview with Ryutaro of Plastic Tree. The thing is that a lot of Western blogs picked up the word and explained it as a style, and upon correction, they changed the word "kodona" to boystyle, but continued to explain it as "men's equivalent of lolita".
Looking back now, I realise that I don't really see this mirored in either the GLBs or the brand releases. Even now, when you see shorts and vests being put out by brands, they seem more targeted at females than at males. If you take a look at Innocent World, when they make shorts they don't even bother making them in men's sizes. I'm not saying that men don't wear shorts and socks in kodona style, but actually we don't really know if boystyle is even a real style in Japan pre-2011, let alone whether it's really the "men's version of lolita". We feel like boystyle has been around for ages because of western lolita blogs, but it might just be someone's made up answer for "what is the male equivalent of -----?" question that we seem to get alot.
Ouji might have to do with Aristo. Especially in bygone years, on egl, you'll find that girls do lump ouji in with aristo instead of lolita. The styles look pretty similar, or more similar than ouji and lolita. The logic is that ouji is pretty much "prince-themed aristo" as much as hime lolita is "princess-themed lolita". So I can certainly see the logic behind how ouji is "not lolita, but ouji-themed aristo is the closest thing to lolita for men".
for gothic, I'm going out on a limb here since I don't know what the author's real intentions are. I think it's a convenient word to include Aristo, vKei, and punk groups. That's just my guess, though, I find the "gothic" style to be pretty ambiguous.
anon, i have to sleep, but i have been researching this a lot. your speculations are way off. i can't address it all yet though.
pic related is a screenshot of a google translated profile of a male Japanese ouji. the "Goss, Prince system" is google's "translation" of gothic and ouji kei, which this guy listed as his personal style somewhere between his 2006 registration and his last 2008 sign-in.
as for "boystyle," this is a term used in japan for different things, including ouji/aristo. some GLBs call ouji "boy lolita" and none use aristocrat outside of Moitie ads (if anyone has PROOF otherwise, please, please post it).
but yeah, kodona is incorrect 100%.
and for the curious, another shamelessly uncropped screencap, this ine without google translate. this 2007 ouji lists her styles as goth-ouji, ouji-kei, goth-punk, and v[isual kei].
FINALLY, there were some discussions on the egl LJ comm in 2005 where kodona vs ouji were discussed. a coupke people said they would get yelled at for using "ouji" because... pic related, the most retarded argument.
the word kodona itself as a thing to call ouji seems to have emerged from a 2002 yahoo group. people were already sick of it by 2005.
true finally: Lauran called pic related prince style back in her earliest blog days (2003?? can check later). the next ouji coord she posted that i found, she called kodona, which reflects the western comm's linguistic shift.
up next: ouji was so obscure in 2005 *in Japan* that one Japanese lolita claimed there wasn't a name for it (she was probably just not aware of it; but still...)
I don't get it either. I understand thinking people look stupid or weird but have no idea how or why anyone could have such a hostile or agressive reaction just to the way someone looks. Like there's a woman I regularly see on my bus who alternates between cybergoth and furry ravewear-looking outfits (despite it being the middle of the day and her being at least in her late thirties) and I honestly think she looks terrible and sometimes even kind of gross, but I can easily just look elsewhere. I don't know what would have to snap in my brain to make me want to scream at or hurt this woman. She's just minding her own business, whatever that may be.
Maybe there's a subset of the population whose villages were raided by pillaging lolitas so now they have PTSD and are triggered every time they see a poofy skirt, idk.
Next time you're sleepy, you may want to sleep first and post later.
What I said was that the (Western) egl comm debated classing ouji as aristo.
The author is not Japanese, that much is also obvious, is it not? So presumably she would have been involved on the Western egl comm, not the Japanese one. Are you following me?
So following egl's debate over whether ouji was under aristo or not, she may have classed ouji under aristo. This is plausible, is it not?
And thus, ouji would now be under aristo, and aristo would not be lolita.
Therefore, regardless of when ouji and kodona came into being or whatever it was doing in Japan, she would reasonably write that "[sic] there is no male equivalent to lolita, aristo is the closest thing to lolita for males". Kodona doesn't exist, boystyle means too many things, and she classed ouji under Aristo. (I will not get into whether this is a corrrect classification or not).
I kind of get you're excited to prove ouji existed pre-2011, but you're kind of arguing with yourself on that one, no one said it doesn't exist pre-2011, just that some girls classed as a substyle under aristo instead.
>Next time you're sleepy, you may want to sleep first and post later.
that may be, but this is the primary point i was responding to:
>we don't really know if boystyle is even a real style in Japan pre-2011, let alone whether it's really the "men's version of lolita".
i get what you are now saying, but i hope you see how the way the above quote is worded, in present tense, can be taken how i took it. thanks for expkaining though!
>Maybe there's a subset of the population whose villages were raided by pillaging lolitas so now they have PTSD and are triggered every time they see a poofy skirt, idk.
The author may not be Japanese, but she is evidently solely writing about the Japanese Lolita community.
It seems her claim that there is no male equivalent to Lolita is because there is no youthful male style. She states that since the closest male style to Lolita is Aristo, then men must look mature while women must look youthful. However, I'm fairly positive there is an emphasis on looking cute for males as well as females over there. At least today. While I don't believe it can be assumed that she is involved in the western community, I do believe she is looking at Japanese Lolitas through Western colored glasses.
I wonder how they feel about male lolitas/otokonoko?
They're seen as cosplayers at best and creeps at worst. I think performers like Mana, Kaya etc get a pass because of the idea that it's a stage costume or maybe that they've proven themselves by contributing to the development of the style like a designer, but just your average guy wearing it I think is not seen as someone you want around.
Yeah, I don't doubt some (Japanese) guys do try to be cute, and there were certainly many snaps of dudes in cute shorts and socks in the older GLBs. But I think if she wanted to explore that, she'd end up having to explain a lot of different fashions rather than focusing on lolita alone, which would probably dilute her focus.
I do see what you're saying about the bias. However, even if she'd written the report today, she'd be able to say the fashion is almost exclusively female insteadly of strictly exclusively female, and she'd still have it right; a look at any random tea party photo will be mostly females than males. There's a chance that the bias you think she's implying is actually right regarding girls wanting to be young and males wanting to be mature, or maybe the brands simply make clothes for females because females are usually the ones that buy a lot of clothes.
The assumption that she is involved on the western side is one I made, I figured egl/western comm would be where one started if they were looking for information, plus she had a very fine laser focus on lolita fashion alone. Probably should have lowered that to saying she definitely wasn't looking at things purely from the Japanese side than implying she herself was a western lolita.
Sorry, I'm just going to bow out from this convo, we don't seem to be communicating well.
Going off reactions/comments from an actual JP brolita I'm loosely acquainted with, but I guess it depends where you are? And no, he's not actually a creeper, or fat/ugly, so I don't think he himself is the problem.