Could the economics of Star Trek work in the real world?

No.

They had Replicators that turned unlimited energy into matter.

Star Trek Economics would not be a reality until the human race has those seemingly godlike powers where we can turn light and vibration into matter.

Who mines the dilithium?

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2009/05/15/who-mines-the-dilithium/

>>1039045
That's a horrible blog post from a very ideologically partisan individual who clearly lacks a good understanding of the Star Trek universe. They have an informal social currency based on a person's reputation.

Everything is "free" in the monetary sense, where people will give you what you ask for without charge because it makes them look good. However, if you're an asshole that abuses the system and demands a lot of stuff without contributing to society, people will dislike you and be less likely to give you stuff. People do their jobs in the Federation because it improves their reputation in the eyes of others. Similarly, if you invent some new and innovative warp drive design or whatever, people will honor you much like how we honor Steve Jobs or Thomas Edison today, and you will be granted social riches.

Basically the whole idea is that you can trade your reputation for material goods and services, and vice-versa.

>>1039035
Sure, if we ever got post-scarcity. Hard to see how we'd get there from here though.

>>1039035
They didn't have Angela Merkel in their ranks.

>>1039430
Read diamond age.
Or just look up molecular assembler.

It is one of critical technologies needed to take humanity to the next step...
>molecular assembler
>printable solar panels
>printable water filtration
>printable real time genetic manipulator
>farming robots

>>1039035
It could work, but, first we would have to evolve as a species.

Humans respond to incentives. We respond to putting in effort and reaping the rewards. We respond to acquiring wealth to take care of our families and love ones. Nobody "taught" us these traits... we evolved this way.

If a system where everyone lives to better the species, we must first shed our biological predisposition to take care of our individual selves first.

Can this be attained? Perhaps in the distant future when/if our way of thinking and behaving change. But there are many examples of a such a system being attempted in contemporary times and failing. Soviet Union and East Germany are two that immediately come to mind ..

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>>1039035
>tfw stuck in a local maximum because of capitalism
>tfw quarterly earnings are more important than human progress
>tfw we will never leave earth
>tfw you will never explore the final frontier

>>1039085
>informal
i.e., non-objective.

What if everyone who holds you in high regard suddenly dies? Your social capital is...GONE!

Unless everyone who died had kept a note of how highly they regarded you, so that the authorities would be able to keep track of your reputation. Star Trek police must love reading diaries.

>>1040099
It's almost as if that note should have a numerical value proportionate to the amount of reputation you have. Then people can directly store and trade these notes for goods and services...

The universe wouldn't work unless human nature changed. Even in post scarcity, people would want their own starship and human crew. Even the major human labor, say the doctor would be valued as some are better than others. There's only so many hours in the day or desire to work, so people would flock to the good doctor, limiting the time. Goods and services may be unlimited but not time.

One can argue many people in 1st world nations have very little scarcity and yet we still desire yachts and penthouses just because.

>>1039085

They actually explained this in Voyager, and it turns out they repurposed Holograms to mine dilithium. Holograms who are sapient with the capacity to be sentient. So yes, even in the far future with literal magic, socialism is built off of slavery.

>>1040124

Even in a post-scarcity economy there will still be certain limited commodities. There's only so much Mediterranean beachfront land, they're not making any new Picassos. There will always be people who have access to these and others who don't. A space-faring society of trillions might not suffer from the basic material needs that most people have today, but in that kind of scenario some of the things that are most valuable today will become even more sought after and harder to acquire.

>>1039700
Eh, as usual humans suffer long bouts of stagnation with minor incremental change, then brief periods of intense rapid development.

>>1040099
Except people would then feel bad for you, increasing your reputation. Also, it would increase other people's reputation by helping you since you're the poor guy whose family and friends just died.

>>1040146
Except they literally don't care about hoarding things. In fact, accumulating tacky displays of wealth would probably hurt your social reputation, making you poorer.

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>>1039045
i am fuming with anger
this guy doesn't get anything, did he even watch star trek? dilithium is not an energy source, the crystals are necessary for warp drive.
fusion reactors are the energy source
there are more mistakes in this article but im too angry to type

If you watch Star Trek, there is no law preventing humans from acquiring currency. Their society just doesn't use it. Star Fleet doesn't pay their members because they do it for the love of science and exploring. The menial jobs are given to inexperienced enlisted and officers. It functions very much like the modern military. If someone who out ranks you tells you to do something, you do it or face the consequences.

Also the replicator technology is a semiclosed loop system. It recycles matter and you can assume the efficiency is very high. That means all waste (trash, feces, urine, dirt, hair, ect) is recycled back into usable products.

Dangerous tasks are given to holorgrams and robots.

Now there are certainly humans who have and seek out wealth in the star trek universe. Commerce is still a real thing, there is trade and commerce. The Ferengi are the most notable example of this. The federation itself has money and has been seen doing deals with the Ferengi.

So it Star Trek, there is clearly still some level of capitalism, it has just been made unnecessary and minimal.

>>1040168
>Except they literally don't care about hoarding things.

Except the arts and history are some of the most critical elements of the show. Every major character is obsessed with the arts and history. Picard collects artifacts.

>>1040146
>but in that kind of scenario some of the things that are most valuable today will become even more sought after and harder to acquire.

Replicators. I could have a molecularly identical copy of any famous painting hanging on my wall. Plus I could have a likeness of the artist paint me an original painting in the holodeck.

>>1040263
>Except the arts and history are some of the most critical elements of the show. Every major character is obsessed with the arts and history. Picard collects artifacts.
But none of those things are scarce material commodities. The artistic works can be endlessly repicated, and hey value those things because of their sentimental and cultural value.

Also Picard is an archaeologist: he doesn't keep those things for himself.

>>1040258
I'm pretty sure that cooperating with Star Fleet gives you access to more accurate replicators and other facilities. They are just communal.

Since there are leaders, there is necessarily a priority on their well-being.

Since there is an Academy and an order of rank, there is necessarily a class system, just one based on ability to contribute to Star Fleet rather than ability to buy things
How did people who failed imperial examination in old China react?
Despair, despondency, rebellion.
I'd actually be pretty interested to read a fanfic that shows the federation falling apart due to inherent human ambition.

>>1039035
See >>1039038 and >>1039451

Some sort of "replicator", and access to whatever fuel it needs. A more realistic step to get a bit closer would probably be asteroid and planet mining. That'll get us a lot of resources at little cost.

>>1039451
>solar panels
Get a load of this cave man.

>>1039700
>Durr
We just need some more wars. When you have wars, they try to one-up each other, and that's when they release all the technology. Of course, people have to die, but that's the price for progress I guess. Feels good to live in an irrelevant country.

>>1040456
But that gardener guy was one of the most valued members of starfleet. They are pretty classless if you ask me.

>>1040462
Without money, rank becomes class. Simple as that. It's about pride, not economics.

And without money, a rank based class system will end about as well as China's bureaucracy did. No way to relieve the pressure without destorying everything already in place.

>>1039035
Of course not. Everything is free and everyone does what they want with their time, somehow.
It's just silly magic and is totally unrelated to the real world just like their ability to fly around to different solar systems in a few hours. It's a fantasy like the fairy stories of old.

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>>1040465
>Communism
Hey, maybe it'll work this time!

>>1040469
>He doesn't know that the Alcubierre drive is a few optimization steps from being functional
>He doesn't know that the military has secretly been working on FTL-travel (and anti-gravity devices, more notably) since they captured nazi documents and scientists in the 40s
It is a fantasy, but based on possible (theoretically) technologies. That's what sci-fi is, fiction that seems scientifically sound. Most of it isn't at all of course, but it has to keep to some general concepts to not seem too silly.

Faster than light travel is theoretically possible. We just need to figure out how.

>>1040465
>>1040469
You're clearly one of those hardened randfags that has never actually watched Star Trek in earnest.

Their society is flat, despite there being ranks in starfleet.

trekkers rely on automation. It could work.

>>1040566
>You're clearly one of those hardened randfags that has never actually watched Star Trek in earnest.
You're clearly one of those retarded commies or pollacks who just call everyone randfags.

>>1040263

A replicated painting isn't the real thing though. You can get a near-identical copy of a painting made now, it doesn't mean it has the same value as the genuine article. Only so many people can file past the Mona Lisa in a day, in a society of trillions, all with equal material wealth, there will have to be some kind of capital which influences who lives where, what they have access to, how they're able to spend their time. Star Trek never does a particularly good job of fleshing out the implications of its post-capitalist economics, The Culture explores the idea better and probably comes closer to how that kind of civilisation could function.

>>1041710

No you dont understand Replication.

Its exacly the same even on a Molecular level.

They are not the same Molecules that was in the original but they are the same types of molecules in the very same order and position.

For all intents and purposes its a perfect copy.

>>1040446
>But none of those things are scarce material commodities.
there's only so many Picassos out there.

>The artistic works can be endlessly replicated
what's the value in something that's just a copy? Humanity without any sort of personal drive, if we just have everything on a silver platter, goes crazy. why replicate it when you can instead collect it the old fashioned way, the way your ancestors did it?

sure, i can just download a couple of MP3s from the internet, but it doesnt have the same kind of feel that buying an album, putting it in the player, and connecting with it has. it's an almost spiritual satisfaction of having acquired something and experienced it.

>and hey value those things because of their sentimental and cultural value.
which is why they collect the real deals, and not just replicated forgeries. its the same as it is today. Sure, I can buy a replica van Gogh at the local bombay, and it looks nice, it's identical to the original, and cost me next to nothing... But it's still a fake. it wasnt hand painted by the artist and aged by the years. now if i was able to obtain an original van Gogh, now that would be an achievement. That would be something worth my satisfaction and appreciation of what it took to get, and what it is.

those types of connections and feelings with objects dont just go away if there's no money involved.

>>1041718
>Its exactly the same even on a Molecular level.
yes. but it still isnt the original article. it has the exact same strokes of paint and weathered wood, but it wasnt made by a painter, it was copied by a machine.

you dont seem to understand the concept of emotional and spiritual attachment to stuff. I can download an MP3 of a Beatles song for identical, BETTER even, quality to the vinyl record. But it can't replace the experience of buying the record, taking it out of the package, playing it and enjoying the music.

>>1040566

name calling isn't an argument friend. As a previous anon said human nature will make this kind of society impossible. Petty human greed, competition and wanting to be better than others will eventually break down this kind of society.

>>1041718

it's still a fake, not origonal just a copy.
People who collect historical pieces do so mostly for a connection with that period of time, knowing that this object was in x or y event is what gives it it's value.

>>1041839

Take for example a gold coin with Numismatic Value.

If I could make a perfect replica of that coin on the molecular level, where it was gold, not a fake coin, and all the molecules were in the exact same position then anyone would accept it.

Because it would essentially be the same thing.

But this is all very hypothetical and it would change the fundamentals of economics if this was reality.

>>1041841

it dosen't matter if it molleculy perfect it would still be a copy.


it doesn’t matter if it molecularly perfect it would still be a copy.

Take for example two identical cakes, one cake is destined for a super-market the other a royal wedding.
Now which one do you think would have more value?

no
star trek economy is post-scarcity due to unlimited supply of energy and replicator tech.
replicator tech doesnt exist.
thus, star trek economics can't work in the real world.

>>1040459
Star Trek IV
>we can't survive without the sun

>>1041732
Ah the mp3 file.
Probably humanity's first experience with post scarcity.

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>>1040058

So the Ferengi are like Precious Metal stackers ?

They try and keep their wealth out of the system.

>>1041934
Latinum can't be replicated for some plot magic reason, making it limited in supply and thus good trading material.

>tfw even star trek writers understand inherent value of scarce resources

>>1041943
also Dilithium, whose scarcity is the plot of many TOS episodes

>>1041732
It looks like you're wired to want the painting for its value though, and not for its beauty. A simple thought experiment would be if it troubles you to choose from two paintings of starry night, indiscernible from each other where one is the original and another is a copy.

>>1039463
Pretty much this. Startrek type of society is unattainable (currently) because people respond to incentives, and in the year 2016 the only real incentive is money. Everything else is bullshit.

Money by itself though is just toilet paper, its the ability to exchange it for scarce products that gives it any value at all. Theoretically if a cheap energy source can be discovered (e.g. antimatter reactors or something that can release a lot of collectable energy), post-scarcity and a StarTrek type of society can be achieved.

>>1041959
Don't forget the AI sentient hologram-robots that do the mining. That will be another key element. But if we have that sure.