Hello /b/, I need to you guys to explain something to me, how can people be smart, intelligent people, yet still be religious ?
And I am not talking about people who are old and never had the chance to find information or diffrent opinions, it just baffles me.
A few weeks ago I met this 16 year old on steam, hes funny, Extremely smart, has good grades and wants to be a fucking astrophysicist, yet he is religious, please explain /b/, If you guys want I will give you his steam webpage.
because what dumb people doesnt comprehend is that believing in "god" is not believing in some old fart sitting on a cloud. God is a Force of nature. Go do ur reading stoopid!
intellect comes in multiple forms, ie philosophical and academic intellect and many others
however my guess is he just tries really hard, it's not difficult to get good grades and do that shit while being only marginally above average
Some people enjoy living an optimistic life, encouraged by the hope religion brings, false or otherwise, it doesn't matter even if they understand the He really doesn't exist.
Hope is a powerful thing.
I guess the idea that religious beliefs can be philosophical is mind blowing, huh?
I'd say not questioning mainstream science's belief that everything is materialistic and only that is just as foolish as believing the Earth is 6000 years old or whatever it is they think.
peer pressure for one. all his friends and more importantly parents and relatives will probably be religious.
and deep deep down most "normal" religious people don't really believe. it's just kind of a meme to them. jesus, doge, what's the difference...
If someone is intelligent, how does that mean they cannot be religious?
If you plan on going with the argument of "they can use their heads to figure it out" you're assuming that athiesm is correct already.
God hasn't been disproved; it's impossible to do so. No matter how intelligent you are, it won't work; hence intelligent people have no reason to not believe in a god.
Most of the people replying to this thread are missing the entire point. Chances are, if you were to ask him he has a great relationship with his parents. That leads to trust. What he learned when he was younger from his parents is just as easily absorbed, trusted, and stored as all of the information that makes him smart. There is no difference between a history book and a bible to someone who is told they're both true. Not to mention, if he's as smart as you're leading to believe, pascal's wager.
Sorry if I rambled on a bit, but I think you get the point.
Because science is used to observe the natural world, which religion, gods, spoopy ghosts, and whatever else aren't a part of. Therefore, they can go on believing whatever they wish while still being some high-tier scientist unraveling the secrets of the universe without losing faith.
Intellect has nothing to do with faith. Intellect deals with what you know, faith deals with what you believe. That's why.
if you need someone to explain that to you, you're a fucking idiot and it doesn't matter if you're religious or not.
Im sorry but, esoteric ?
Oh no he really believes, when he got confronted by it by one of my other friends, he got defensive and he answered with logical answers.
I guess you are right, could you tell me the name of the belief that thinks this? I cant seem to remember it.
You are right, he mentioned it before :)
>Why does he give a shit what other people believe?
Because we live in a world in which other people act on their beliefs, and their actions often have consequences for other people.
Holy fuck, how is anyone that stupid.
>That's a great way for edgy 13 year olds to be religious.
Nice work anon, you just found out how the church can reach out to edgelords
You have to be close-minded and uneducated to even ask this question.
Most believers in God or whatever they call their deity come to that belief through honest investigation and intellectual deliberation.
I've read several translations of the Christian Gospels and they've convinced me Jesus was a real person in history and did what is conveyed in those books. I've read a lot of history, other religious texts, and a lot of fiction. The Gospels are unique among all of those.
I have absolutely no issues with anything science has put forward, be it evolution, etc. Science is truth.
I feel we should never impose our religious views on others.
I know a lot of great, respectful atheists. But I also know a lot of ignorant and rude ones. I hope you're the prior.
I am respectful on the outside, as in I dont give a shit what you believe as long as it doesnt affect me, but on the inside I sometimes judge.
Yes, thats it, thanks.
It really depends on the person. Everyone's views and ideas are shaped based on their experiences. Some people just find comfort believing that there is more to the world than uncaring chaos.
I mean, the intelligent ones rarely are the militants, and they usually understand that parts of it don't make sense, but they're also the ones who don't treat it like a history book.
...? If you're intelligent, you KNOW that religion isn't real. I understand some people need something to have "faith" in, but enough intelligence makes that need go away too
If we didn't kill in the name of religion we'd kill in the name of something else its human nature.
Queue Southpark episode
Incorrect. Most agnostics admit that many gods, such as the Christian one, would be knowable if they existed. However, since they are omnipotent they can choose not to be knowable.
Esoteric is basically "what is hidden"
Most religions are a hidden road map to transcendence to other realms of consciousness and astral planes. (yes I know your probably going to dismiss what I say after this but eh, I got my own personal experience through research and practice)
It's kind of a really freaking large subject to talk about but I'll try break it down a little.
Don't think "the holy bible" when I say religion, although the gnostic texts were once like this the church has made sure to remove all the real hidden knowledge jesus used to teach from the eyes of the public and give them a watered down version of events.
More kabbalah, Taoism, Sufism, Buddhism, Tibetan monks, Hindu yogis etc
Religions are actually quite a beautiful thing, a shame most westernised cultures can't see past the evil deeds of the church. And thus giving all religions and spirituality press.
>Hello /b/, I need to you guys to explain something to me, how can people be smart, intelligent people, yet still be religious ?
People, especially children are biologically predisposed to trust their parents, when they're told over and over something even ridiculous they'll eventually believe it.
There's a certain lack of fault by the child here, no one can be expected to overcome harsh indoctrination, which is why many people consider religious parents to be abusive to children when indoctrinating them.
It's something held so strongly that it can often take many years into adult life to shake off, many atheists such as myself never had to do this so I'm not so quick to judge the religious as I never went through what they did. Question what your beliefs might be if you have extremely religious parents who told you that you'd burn in hell for non-believe and consider what your position as a young adult might be given years of this kind of abuse.
Once you view the religious as simply people who have been abused, you see them in a light much similar to any kind of other abuse. It requires sympathy and understanding to fix, and advocating secular parenting in future.
Interestingly enough it's the religious who break free of their indoctrination who will ultimately solve this problem, for its them who risk future indoctrination of their children and them who can fix it.
> Most believers in God or whatever they call their deity come to that belief through honest investigation and intellectual deliberation.
This is false, most believers inherit the beliefs of the parents who raised them, with many of the exceptions being conversion through marriage. This is a fact you can research, since you are clearly open to taking in new information and reassessing your situation like any rational and intelligent human being.
Everyone has the potential to be decieved. Remember, Plato and Socrates, although holding extremely rational views managed to come to the conclusion that all learning is re-collection and 'proving' re-incarnation.
>but on the inside I sometimes judge
nothin wrong with that
we all do
but I will say this, if you think this:
>how can people be smart, intelligent people, yet still be religious
where you are essentially equating someone's belief or not with their intelligence, that's a atheism 101 unnecessary mistake
Some people just like to have belief that there's something bigger out there. It's all about keeping your mind open to the possibilities that there could be a good out there, even if science says it's highly unlikely.
Just stop, lol
the biggest flaw in what you said is that people with faith believe in something enough that to them it's 'true,' no matter how crazy it sounds to everyone else.
To say, if you're intelligent, you know religion isn't really intelligent at all. If you're intelligent, you'd realize you believe something and if someone else believes something different, that's fine since it doesn't affect you in the slightest. Arguing about it is the dumb thing to do
Also intelligence doesn't make faith go away. They really aren't even the same thing so one can't replace the other.
Nigga if you're intelligent, you know that no religion is accurate. But you also know that believing you know everything is stupid, regardless of which direction you take it. You can be an intelligent christian, it just involves taking the bits of christianity that make sense to your moral code and trying to live your life decently. Why do you act like anyone who follows a religion has to believe every last bit of it as though it were the truth?
Also, I would point out that, if you have a spiritual experience in your life, you are much more likely to think spiritually, and therefore more willing to accept some sort of shaping hand in the universe.
I am by no means religious, but I have had enough experiences in my life that seemed to transcend random causality that I do not believe that there is absolutely for certain no cosmic presence shaping events
Because maybe some people find comfort in believing in an afterlive and that good deeds will pay off?
Who cares m8, just because I'm too cynic to believe in that doesn't mean that its the right thing to do.
Try John Lennox dude.
Plus, I've happened to notice that when "scientists" ~ evolutionists or atheists or whatever, are asked too many questions they'll start limiting your ability to think for yourself.
For instance, infinity doesn't exist... So they say, and they only say this when it is convenient to dismiss any arguments they don't like, but when it is convenient for them, they'll speak in infinite terms.
Or, they say that "evolution is a proven fact", when it is nothing of the sort whatsoever. There is absolutely ZERO proof of evolution.
Or you point out that they are merely taking the God of the Bible and changing names around, so that instead of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, you have the big bang, evolution and natural selection. But most importantly, of all the things you must worship, it is always the mind of the evolutionist....
In short, I find evolutionists and atheists to be unscientific. Because they are always seeking to not have to keep asking the question "why?" And they try very hard to limit freedom of thought.
Also that they use bully tactics quite frequently, and the lie about that fact.
For an example of pretty much all of the above, one guy says that it should be illegal to introduce religion to someone before the turn 18, thus removing the rights and liberties of religious people, except for the religion of atheism/evolution.
And yes, it is a religion. It is people placing FAITH (look up the definition if you never have) in scientists to tell them the truth. When people are LIARS.
Scientists can't even explain the here and now, yet I'm supposed to believe them about what happened a THOUSAND years ago much less a million or 14 billion?~!?
What about when Richard Dawkins challenges the existence of Jesus Christ merely 2000 years ago, claiming that it is a debated fact, WHEN IT ISN'T AT ALL?! LIAR.. that's what.
God hasn't been disproved; it's impossible to do so. No matter how intelligent you are, it won't work; hence intelligent people have no reason to not believe in a god.
God hasn't been proven; it's NOT impossible to do so. No matter how intelligent you are, it CAN work. Hence, intelligent people have no reason [no proof] to believe in a god.
That's an idiotic point of view, I think. Faith is based on insecurity.
You - or whoever is the believer - are/is too insecure about the things that make up the world. They need comfort that a family member is dead, they need a reason that the universe exists, etc. These are all things we can't know, but the smart thing to do is to wait until we can know to try and make a hypothesis about it, not believe in a series of scriptures that was obviously made up by some person over 2000 years ago.
What this guy said.
Your "intelligence" should tell you that there are simply to many coincidences in this universe for it to all be one big coincidence.
Look at me, stooping to the level of an athiest.
You guys are just as bad as the believers when it comes to shoving your values and dogmas into those that have a belief system.. if not worse!
btw I don't just believe in one "god" I believe in all of them, they all appeared to us during times of great struggle in humanity and gave us exactly what we needed to "hear" during whatever current predicament we were in.
This is why it is said the gods of today are the demons of tomorrow, we shouldn't dwell on them forever like we are currently doing.
Perhaps if we all stopped fighting over who's god is and isnt real and if they do truly exist, maybe we might be able to hear the voice of whatever god is trying to get through to us right now to steer humanity in the direction it should head next.
He may have meant "most intelligent believers in god"
Some follow blindly because its the way they were taught, but I have met and conversed with several smart, reasonable dudes who identify as judeo-christian. They have given it tremendous thought, and they have determined that their holy book isn't that bad and the teachings of their religion are worth considering in spirit, if not in letter.
That shit flies right out the window when you get to muslims, tho. Fucking crazy bastards
>That's an idiotic point of view
Faith is what? Try looking up the definition.
You're projecting your own perspective on a lot of other people who happen to be individuals, and at the same time proving that you don't know what you're talking about.
The Bible was written by over 40 different men, over a timeframe of over 1500 years, and it is still completely congruent.
Try doing that with your scientists.. You can't get them to agree on just about anything. And you have more FAITH in them than you do the God of the Bible.
Who's really the dolt here?
As long as the Scientific method is used without religious bias, I dont care what you believe. The thing is, Theists generally reject the methodology for their own, circular variation. Deists, Pantheists, Atheists and whatever elseists make great scientists.
For an example of pretty much all of the above, one guy says that it should be illegal to introduce religion to someone before the turn 18, thus removing the rights and liberties of religious people, except for the religion of atheism/evolution.
This is a clash of freedom of mind and freedom of religion. Personally [because I believe religion to be harmful] I would agree with Anon about only allowing religion to be offered to people eighteen plus.
>There is absolutely ZERO proof of evolution
most of your post tl:dr
As a Christian, the evidence for evolution is so overwhelming that it's now considered a proven fact. Recall in the Genesis creation story that man went from a simple creature to one who possessed knowledge of good and evil. Sounds a bit like evolution doesn't it?
That is a retarded statement. If he doesn't exist, and you know that for certain, then you have proof he doesn't exist.
Excuse me while I answer a slightly more valid point.
You're saying that there's no proof either way, correct?
I agree. But the fact is that since there is nothing either way, intelligence doesn't play a part.
Your only argument is to reference the bible... Yes we are all aware it is mostly a book of lies and misinformation what else are you trying to prove op?
>You're projecting your own perspective on a lot of other people who happen to be individuals, and at the same time proving that you don't know what you're talking about.
Wow, you literally have no idea you are doing the exact same thing do you?
You take Richard Dawkins, and I'll take John Lennox. Oh, and I'd been aware of John Lennox long before "God's Not Dead" came out, which I just saw for the first time a week or so ago. It was OK... but that's it.. Just OK.
The Chinese guy was the only one who got saved in that movie. And that was awesome.
It is a beautiful and interesting thing when someone who is brilliant also embraces a religion. I say this because true intelligence is normally viewed as the opposite of spirituality, and so an equally intelligent person will question how one can perceive religion to be real. Here is the thing, having faith is not tangible. There is no real thought to faith, it just is, and so it is hard to truly understand by thinking logically about it.
Even now, if someone reads this post they will develop a response to my words, but the deeper meaning can't be answered or calculated, it needs to be found suddenly and genuinely.
it's the 21st century, people. I thought we have more important matters to attend to.
Here you have the exact truth... This guy practically quoted the Bible whether he knew it or not!
"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?"
So, if you boiled all of Richard Dawkins REASONS for trying to disprove God down to one basic cause, do you know what it would be?!?
He believes that God is petty for being concerned with his SIN. That's it.
Richard Dawkins loves his SIN so much he MUST attempt by all means possible to disprove, or destroy God.
An offence against God is a defence of SIN.
>Faith is based on insecurity
Fear is based on insecurity. Faith is built on belief. Intellect is based on knowledge. A person who is faithful has no problem with you trying to dismiss their point of view since they simply will choose not believe you.
I will note that a fear (insecurity about the unknown) may drive certain people to faith (a belief/religion), but you really need to learn that fear =/= faith =/= intellect.
As far as my POV, it's my own point of view. What can I say? I developed it through my own experience. You're free to view it as idiotic. Doesn't affect me in the slightest.
This post has transcended retardation, and reached a new plane of elemental stupidity.
>when "scientists" ~ evolutionists or atheists or whatever, are asked too many questions they'll start limiting your ability to think for yourself.
Are you sure they're just trying to focus the conversation so that they can actually have a discussion. Limiting the scope is a good way to avoid goalpost moving and abrupt topic changes
>For instance, infinity doesn't exist... So they say, and they only say this when it is convenient to dismiss any arguments they don't like, but when it is convenient for them, they'll speak in infinite terms.
Infinity is a concept. Infinity doesn't exist as a number, but any scientist who says infinity is not a thing shoud be required to turn in their lab coat and their gun
>There is absolutely ZERO proof of evolution.
False. It has not been proven as a global theory, but there is definitely proof that organisms change generationally to adapt to their circumstances
>they are always seeking to not have to keep asking the question "why?"
You realize this means they are constantly altering and improving on the ideas they have to fill in all of the gaps. The point of science is to reach the point when you have an answer to every why that isn't "Fuck it, magic"
>use bully tactics quite frequently, and the lie about that fact.
All sides do this, all of the time, because they can't see why the other side wants to be wrong forever.
>illegal to introduce religion to someone before they turn 18
It should be illegal to force a child to go to church if they don't want to, and it should be illegal to punish a child for not believing what you personally believe. I know several atheist parents who would gladly take their kid to church if the kid asked, even though the parent was not into that.
>people placing in scientists to tell them the truth. When people are LIARS.
Peer review nigga.
Not at all..... Sounds quite stupid to me. That considering there are people like you who believe that Eve copulated with the snake and THAT was "eating the forbidden fruit"..........
Which would mean, Adam had to do the same thing... And I think God would have just killed them on the spot and started over in that case.
At any rate, The Bible has the Sun and the Moon being created AFTER the plants and trees. Meaning that they survived for one day on nothing but the light of God himself. And the BIble does NOT teach evolution.
Not only this,,, Go ahead, SHOW ME the proof of evolution that you have SEEN with your own eyes.
Thats a cool point of view.
He is muslim, lol.
I dont believe in god because there is no proof, You have proof of some unnatural things, so I find it weird that you dont believe, sorry.
What about intelligent people who develop faith in a religion on their own after a certain age?
I didn't bother reading past a certain point because you missed an entire demographic, and you're a drooling shitpile
>The smarter you are, the easier it is for you to rationalize an irrational belief. You can essentially out smart yourself. The human brain is full of bullshit sometimes
You guys do realise this statement also applies to you and your own beliefs?
Although I am currently questioning whether you do have the required faculties or not.
Your posts have more flaws and inconsistencies then the bible you hate so much
so lets refer to this, because i'd generally follow the same philosophy as you do, that other peoples business is simply not my business
yet, i am differing this when it comes to religion, because religion doesn't stay relevant only to the individual. first off, most people growing up get indoctrinated by this, which isn't a sign for any concept that is reasonable and free to follow, but a sign for a concept that shall be followed. why shall it be followed? it leads to control. as for christianity, holding up the "good christian values" irritates and calms people into believing, that the people ruling them are following those morals, by calling themselves christian. combined with all the shitload of moral horrors they act along, the inhumanity of modern politics that get disguised by lies it is nothing good in it anymore.
yes, the believing human being generating hope and and energy out of it's faith is not something anyone should criticize, but the concept of religion gets abused and what is left over is a tool of control. religion is made by human. it is intentionally made to value up your image, to gather people under a flag and to abuse them.
also, they pretend to provide final answers, that in fact are plain shitty and unreasonable. humans are pretty fucking good at lying to their self to keep up faith, may it be for religion, their own life, their character or whatever the shit you want to look at. it's all about the feeling of being on the "right side". that gets abused. the end.
If he's really smart, he will have questioned it, and come to a resolution. Maybe he thinks that there must be a higher power, or that religion can teach a great deal. It's not always about the fear of death and subsequent everlasting nothingness, thereby inducing a belief in an afterlife - it's about the fact that there's so much we don't understand, but think we do. Religion can be a way of seeking out to guess at the unknown. I for one think that there may be a higher force which we cannot comprehend at work, which overall may have created us. But why does it matter? Who can say for sure. Depending on your mindset, it could just be preferable for you to hedge your bets on religion to give you a more positive outlook. It's not just about fear of death, it's about questioning life.
they believe for the sole purpose of believing in something I guess. It's fun to have something very stable to hold on to. Just like a steady relationship with a significant other is fulfilling, so is an imaginary relationship with a deity. From an existentialistic viewpoint, it's an open involvement with the possibility of afterlife. A mystery that keeps on giving.
That's what I think anyway. Could also be in some cases that people need a Hinterwelt.
It's all about the range of the metaphysical projection one's mind can cast.
Given that we, limited as we are as humans, can't point out a single Truth in the universe, anything is believable.
And by Truth, I mean a truly universal thing, something we can not grasp. Gravity? Nope. Time? Niet. 1+1=2? Naw.
Think of the universe/reality/the Whole as a mile deep lake, and mankind as a dragonfly. Religion, science, any way of thinking, is just a way of diving into the lake, trying to reach its end. But no matter how hard a dragonfly tries, it will never dive a mile deep.
Therefore, any kind of believing or not believing, be it religion, science, atheism, animism, shitism, etc...is valid.
But then again, everything I said is just another belief.
You are viewing faith as an institution, like the Roman Catholic Church, or something of the sort.
While people observe like that, true faith of an intelligent person need not be the same.
Reading through this thread, I think it's hilarious how much hypocrisy exists on both sides of the fence. I'm reading a lot of sweeping generalizations about entire groups of people and black-and-white philosophizing. Personally, I'd be wary of anyone who unquestioningly held their belief as absolute and, in doing so, vilified those who think differently. I wonder how anyone, religious or not, could reflect on what we know about the micro-to-macro universe and determine that anything can be defined as either true or untrue. Sorry, folks, but the world is much more dynamic than that. Every decision ever made has lead to an indeterminable quantity of consequential outcomes and chain reactions that persist indefinitely. Everything we know in this universe that moves (or doesn't) has an affect on the environment it interacts with, and in turn, a chain of environments beyond. To think that things either "are" or "aren't" is very human and, frankly, beneath the level of complexity that persists throughout our universe. Science is the pursuit of factual knowledge while religion attempts to conceptualize our origins as a [possible] result of a higher power at work. I truly believe it is because these two deeply dynamic concepts work in tandem that we are able to grow as a species. There is no right or wrong, just questions that may never have answers and the beautiful pursuit of a journey that almost certainly has no end.
He doesn't love his sin. He just (reasonably) refuses to accept that there is an omnipotent being which created the world, hid from the world, and decided he would judge people's right to suffer torture forever based off of arbitrary criteria such as 'Do you believe in me even though I literally never appear in any verifiable capacity to anyone on earth' and any of the numerous conflicting requirements for not disobeying the word of god.
If god created us to be flawed creatures, and gave enough of a shit to pay any attention to us afterwards, he's either a jerk who doesn't know how to fix his science experiment gone wrong, or he judges us based off of the quality of our deeds and not our adherence to an old book
This is what I did, when I was young I was forced to go to church and even as a child I saw through all the bullshit of the instituion.
When they would take the children to bible studies I would go run up a tree and hide because I didn't want to listen to there bullshit.
Of course I knew religious texts where never meant to be taken for there face value.
Below the surface they are metaphors meant to be taken as guidelines that if followed would promote a healthy happy colony.
In the "deep web" section of the religious scriptures (that few ever find) from around the world are guidelines that if followed can allow you to touch the holy spirit/the tao/oneness/divinity.
Few find this path, fewer succeed
So he believes in Allah? Wow.
Muslims are pretty stuck on their beliefs. He could be the smartest guy in earth but that won't overcome the Muslim he has in him. It is extremely likely his parents brainwashed him into believing religion when he was young, so I doubt he will ever change his thoughts.
>wants to be an astrophysicist
>Richard Dawkins loves his SIN so much he MUST attempt by all means possible to disprove, or destroy God.
If Richard was here, he would say that he doesn't even care of the notion of 'sin'.
He also knows that no matter how hard he tries he can't disprove god, because nobody can, no matter how intelligent. To quote him:' I'm only an agnostic to god in so far as i'm an agnostic to unicorns'.
This is what the Bible says that religion is. My question is what is wrong with this?
James 1:26 ESV
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
James 1:27 ESV /
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
John 6:50-71 ESV
There are no inconsistencies in the BIble,
Everything is made in pairs?
Not to eat shellfish?
'Thou shall not kill' - It's cool when god does Genocide though.
Cool story bro. I once made painting of what you just described and with kinda the same idea behind it. It's funny how you came up with this too.
Except my painting also depicted "world changing ideas" as color drops that colored the lake. Some merged into new colors and others canceled eachother out, etc. This lake is our inherent prejudice because you cannot be born outside the lake.
Wow.. First sentence and way to prove my point...
1~ Limiting progression of thought, and you're defending that. Points can be made across broad spectrums of analysis. Go watch John Lennox debate Richard Dawkins..
2~ Here are are proving my point. I've made it inconvenient for you... However, in one swath declaration you show both sides of the tool used to limit minds.
3~ I wouldn't even call the supposed "proof" you're talking about enough to consider it any more than a hypothesis. Let's say evolution made one of its infamous mistakes that lead to new SPECIES recently.......... Go ahead, show me something even REMOTELY close to this which would be ACTUAL proof........... FAIL
4~ Your perspective of this concept is flawed. There will ALWAYS be a why to ask. Its like dividing one by two until you run out of number to divide. It will never happen, yet scientists keep trumping the next thing as the "end-all of end-alls" until guess who?!?! CREATIONISTS come along and disprove them or show them the next problems to solve...
^^^This point DESTROYS you whether you like it, accept it or whatever or not..... Science NEEDS God... lol
5~ you're right.
6~ This is why I will not have children so far as I can see. The future doesn't need more genius minds to delude, deceive and limit. It doesn't need more people to play hitler to. You get to train your children the way you prefer but I do not. It IS illegal for you to use the government to invade the privacy of my home.
And HERE is where we run into some MAJOR issues... You see, this is a part of the very SINS that Dawkins and others like you fight against God in order to defend.
Peer review indeed.
hahaha gud 1 m8.
But the vatican have made sure that you never get the true story of what happened 2014 years ago
if you believe the bible as fact then yes, you actually are a moron.
The catholic churches only objective it to make sure there religion is the one and only religion in the world.
Facts and legitimacy is not something they are concerned about.
Dawkins can SAY anything he likes. Doesn't make it true. For instance, i watched a debate between him and Lennox the other day and it was the ONE point he kept referring back to, that "God was petty" to be concerned with sin. And he repeated this statement over and over and over again. I might go watch it again and COUNT the number of times he states this. I guarantee its over 23.
My dad is very religious, but he's also very smart.
He was raised strictly southern Baptist but when he joined the Air Force in like '85 he learned about the rest of the world.
Lots of deployments to places like Turkey and Saudi Arabia (before they really hated the US), and he respects Islam deeply.
After having many conversations about this he has made it clear about his beliefs on a few things...
>Proselytising makes you look stupid
>There are many good people out there with many different religions, one person fucking around being a cunt doesn't represent everyone
>It is only logical to at least tolerate other religions well, the ones that shouldn't be tolerated are the individuals that are fucking around
>He believes in Evolution, but he also believes that God helped it along
>He understands there are inconsistencies in the Bible, as in any religious scripture, and views it more as a collection of metaphorical lessons (like Aesop's fables) than utter truth
He takes no issue with me being Atheist, though sometimes he does admit he wishes he'd taken me to Church as a kid.
I also have no problem with him being Baptist as he is a logical, loving and tolerant person.
His wife on the other hand is an uneducated Christian Filipino wench from hell who makes it known that I will never find happiness without her God.
No, i'm saying that it's impossible to disprove something.
I'm also saying that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the claim: 'There is a god' requires so much evidence, that the current amount of evidence won't suffice.
In terms of your 'no proof either way, correct'?
You're right that no side can give definitive proof that the other side is wrong [such as in an argument about maths] but this lack of proof is only a lack of proof on the claim that 'There is a god'.
TLDR: The claim 'There is a god' requires proof. The claim 'There isn't enough proof to accept that there is a god' I would agree with but it isn't an absolute.
I LOVE the Bible.
The King James Bible that is. And I wouldn't have made that comment had I not believed it about myself first.
Of course the nature of a Bible Believer OUGHT to be integrity........
>His wife on the other hand is an uneducated Christian Filipino wench from hell who makes it known that I will never find happiness without her God.
I wanted to answer you but this just made me laugh too much.
yeah i forgot to differ between faith and religion. religion has those given answers made up, while faith can just be the belief, that the things missing explanation by science _can be_ created by any higher intelligence. and i am not refusing the fact that there are some things existing in nature that are truly well thought-out, yet i can't bring myself into believing it is the result of any higher force. i tend to break down any spiritual issue to biochemistry, because apparitions of the "force above us" are brought to us by human perception - and perception can be altered very easily, be it internal drugs, external drugs or just misinterpretation of experience.
>[Editor's note: Not everyone will agree that all of the listed "contradictions" are, in fact, contradictions. It is therefore up to the reader to use his/her own intelligence and decide for himself/herself what s/he can and will accept as a contradiction. In other words, you need not agree with what Meritt sees as a problem or contradiction. It should be kept in mind, however, that a perfect, omnipotent, and omniscient god would reasonably be expected to have done a better job of it than the Bible had such a god inspired a book. In any case, lists such as this can be useful in serving as a springboard for further study.
Now you may throw as many at me as you like.. I'll answer them ALL....
To disprove would be to remove previously introduced proof. That's easy to do, because "proof" is usually subjective to bias.. As is the case ALWAYS with any group including atheists/evolutionists further proving that those groups are also religions...
I don't care that she's Christian, I do however care that she's dead-set on converting me.
This woman grew up on a farm in the poor parts of the Phillipines.
SHE KNOWS NOTHING!
One time we were camping and Dad and I were talking about other Galaxies. She did not know what a Galaxy is. She did not know that other Stars are essentially our Sun.
This woman doesn't know shit but she's still so certain that I will burn in hell if I don't get on my knees and suck God's dick.
The only retard in the room is you.
You honestly think there are creationists on /b/?
YOU ARE BEING TROLLED!
THE CLOSEST THING TO A THEIST ON /B/ IS A DEIST.
We knew it would be subjective. Still doesn't stop them being contradictions.
The world has been proven to be over 6000 years old. The bible says that it's about 6000 years old. INCONSISTENCY!
Oh... And the "disprove" comment was directed at evolutionists always acting like they've found the "end-all to all end-alls" argument when another "discovery" is found... Their end-all attitude is disproven.
well, considering our country has an average IQ of 86, you can expect those answers. there are actually more churches than mcdonalds in here. we're not in a lack of catholic qts that I qould like to raep though.
Speaking of qts, does your mother look like a monkey? Brown, with huge nostrils, oily face, overall disgusting looking?
>evolutionists always acting like they've found the "end-all to all end-alls" argument when another "discovery" is found
That's a load of horseshit, you're confusing edgy militant hard atheists with actual men of science.
I'm a Philosophic kind of guy, and you just don't know shit mate.
>To disprove would be to remove previously introduced proof.
Let's say your proof for god is the bible. It can be objectively show the bible is wrong about the age of the earth. Therefore I can claim the bible is wrong. This destroys you proof but it doesn't dis-prove god [as much as i would like it to, it doesn't]
>That's easy to do, because "proof" is usually subjective to bias..
You stupid fuck. 'Proof' has to be empirically correct. We could all rationalise the 'proof' but it wouldn't be sound. Nigga, do you even scientific method?
>>565419506They can't prove its age any more than they can prove that the earth revolves around the sun. Both are "educated" guesses...
The question is which is inconsistent with which?
Jesus claimed that no man had seen God at any time, yet he also claimed to be God, and he claimed that he blinded men from seeing his as God so that they wouldn't die. The Old Testament says a man can't see God without dying yet a man stands before God and is purified of his sin so that he may stand before and look on God, so that he could write God's words about what God looks like.
The facts are as they stand, God is far above you, so the only way you can defend your SIN is to attempt and discredit God. You'll stoop to whatever disgustingly filthy and pathetic level to do so.
You haven't shocked me. Lurk more in the word of God.
>They can't prove its age any more than they can prove that the earth revolves around the sun. Both are "educated" guesses...
Both of those are proven, l2physics you dumb cunt.
People can be really smart in one area and not know anything about another.
Lets say you want to learn mathematics. What if that's all you do? How will know anything about history or biology or any other science? You won't. Those things are learned just like everything else in life is learned.
Being an atheist has to do with understanding multiple subjects. You have to know history, maybe basic physics, and biology. It has to do with a rational point where you go... "Oh there is no way a super natural being is going to stop this person from dying or stopping this building from falling down". The thought of "maybe god doesn't exist" actually has to come up in your life time. If I hadn't been asked about my religion, I would probably still believe in it to some degree.
That being said, most scientists are atheist and many successful business people are too.
When you reach a certain point of intelligence, its fairly obvious that religion does not play a role in anything natural. Statistically PHDs are the highest percentage of atheists in academia. High school graduates being the lowest.
The most intelligent people in the world are Ashkenazi Jews, but I highly doubt the smartest of them really believe in a higher being. Identifying as Jewish is more of a cultural and respectful thing.
As for your friend... getting good grades does not mean you are smart. You could be going to a very shitty school and be getting straight As easily. Also, wanting to be an astrophysicist does not mean you're smart either. He could fail in his field.
Let's say he is smart and he does become someone important. He is still very young and come to realize that he is an atheist. He could also stay a christian because he enjoys it and enjoys believing in it. There are many Christians who contributed to science.
To make this all very simple, it is more likely that an intelligent person is an atheist, although there are intelligent people who are theistic.
I haven't found a difference............
They all want to limit my freedoms, and all want to indoctrinate my children, and all want to force their views on me, and all consider my peaceful views to be dangerous.
Atheist baits after religious people trying to find arguments.
>Ofcourse you can be smart and believe in a higher being
What is carbon dating?
We also physically see ourselves rotate around the sun everyday. if that's not enough for you, we even saw it from the moon.
Come on /b/ro I'm agnostic, mainly because religion is a touchy subject, but this stuff is first grade.
Called it. There is a running joke here to americans taking away all our uglies, we really don't mind lol. Fucking hell, I really hope you did not inherit her genetics.
You... Really mixed up something here.
1) intelligence and knowledge are faith. They are seperate things. One is not at all necessarily connected or dependent on the other.
Maybe you mean how can someone very intelligent lean towards a dogmatic perspective on faith or something? I'm not sure what you're confusion is.
I actually spent some time writing up a response to this post.
But then I printed it on some toilet paper and wiped my ass with it. Why? Because it was a better use of my thought and effort than responding to you in any meaningful way.
Good day, sir
>and all consider my peaceful views to be dangerous.
The problem is that your views ARE dangerous and can easily lead to your kind of people oppressing others. Have you ever opened a history book?
do you even realize that you're proving my point?
Let's view the evidence for your "proof" that the earth is over 6000 years old.. When they calibrated their tools how could they not do so using their prejudicial assumptions of age when living molusks carbon date to be anywhere from 5000 to several million years old?
Yeah, you have proof of nothing to present except proof of MY point.. Thanks though.
I'm with you, OP. I don't understand how people can reconcile using rational thought while still believing irrational things. At least when I electively decide to adopt good luck superstitions for fun, I admit "It doesn't have to be logically consistent if it's not logical in the first place!" but yeah, motherfuckers who act like they get to use the benefits and processes of science but still believe in made-up fairy tales when it's convenient and makes them feel good, UNLESS they're the kind who ACKNOWLEDGE that it's made up feel good shit (Norse Pagan style ... a lot of those fuckers know it's stories that serve a purpose, not literal truth) baffle the fuck out of me too. Like, really, just pull your head out of your ass and deal with not being able to predict and control the universe. Humans aren't special, and people need to quit clinging to reasons to believe we are.
Oh no, they married when I was 19.
She wanted to have kids with him I'm guessing to cement their relationship but he flat-out refused (they're in their forties and he's already had to deal with me for 24 years).
Hey there OP, I think myself an intelligent individual, to some degree at least. So let me try to help you understand in layman's terms. You obviously seem to understand the underlying reasoning for which intelligent people can practice religion and some practice of the mind, say astrophysics; balance. In order to train your mind, you use reason, and to train your emotions, you use belief (read: imagination or dream). That belief doesn't have to be to a god from a religious sect, you could believe you are god's dreams reincarnate, as postulated by Descartes, or god could be all of existence, and humans a mere piece of the puzzle. The point is, a harmony between cold and cunning mind, and the warm glow of emotional thought come together to create a human being. A human being as stated by Aristotle is a rational animal. The reason comes from the brain, and the emotions associated with animal like instincts from the heart (using picture as reference metaphor). I hope this can help elucidate the idea that not only is it not baffling, but to be strictly following the emotions and ignoring the reason or vice versa is what is truly baffling.
>Fear of death and the unknown.
I would add "and an unhealthy inability to manage that fear" since just about everyone experiences this to an extent, some of us can just deal with it. Otherwise, yeah, nailed it.
mfw i live in the home country of Christianity, and near it's HQ also (less than 1 hour drive) and here religion it's pretty much a tradition and little else, people say they are religious but in fact they practice little or nothing, I am an Atheist and people don't give a damn about it, no ever got into a discussion by this.
>mfw other thread is kill after typing a reply
These religious threads are almost certain to contain creedy backwards beings, then it starts to become a shit flinging contest with fairy tales versus pure rationality.
If your religious, stay religious and go about your life contributing absolutely nothing to humanity. We could not advance with you.
For OP's question, it's highly likely he was taught to go to church at a young age. As he grows he tends to hold onto that same comforting belief because that's what he was taught as a child.
These same people have no right to an opinion, and they don't contribute to the advancement of our civilization.
I myself was a biblical baby. Around a young age I would pray to God. If I sinned I felt terrible and I had to confess when I got home. I've come to the realization that it wasn't helping me, it wasn't doing anything, it was just comfort.
I love history. Just, I haven't found but one incident in the last 2000 years where someone who believed like myself ever formed a group to harm someone else which wasn't in self-defence.
Note that, I'm a Bible Believer. The one incident is where a guy marched an army into ireland and left Bibles everywhere. Problem is, the catholics(who you ignorantly equate with me) have been mass murdering us for centuries, so have the muslims, so have communist athiests/evolutionists, so did Hitler....... etc..... etc....... etc..............>
So, the truth stands as it is, any view BUT mine is dangerous.
>mainstream science's belief that everything is materialistic
Science isn't all empiricism. There's rationalism, and deontology (which is wrong but it's there), and many other ways of examining physical and intellectual processes. There are words for this. You should learn actual stuff before you go around talking about how something is foolish when you don't even know what that thing is. (And the very fact that you believe you can even discuss ideas and criticize methods means that you, at the end of the day, adopt SOME kind of method of comparing information and trusting that some information is real, therefore you actually do believe that science is superior to making shit up. You're just not calling it that because you think you know what you're talking about but you don't.)
>implying all religious people are stupid, or sub par.
Well, yeah. A willful adherence to something that can't actually be logically defended is BROKEN, and we call that MENTAL ILLNESS if it's anything other than the socially accepted version of it, religion.
many people cant deal with the fact that atheism is a logical option.
for some of us, we have seen things only revealed to us, wherein we take it as a religious sign.
obviously this could be due to observer bias, but we choose not to believe in such things.
the day before my medical entrance exams, i saw the number 666 come up 6 times throughout the day.
it could be a coincidence, but then again... im in medical school.
nomine dei nostri satanas luciferi excelsi
The majority of people who become religious do this before the age of 18, and by that I mean 90%.
And by before 18 I mean mostly before the age of 10.
Somehow kids who just managed to not shit their pants or wet their beds are able to make that kind of decision which will influence the rest of their lives.
Little kids fully understanding the bible and the meaning and relevance of it.
If we would stop the brainwashing and let people figure it out on their own, christianity would vanish from this world really fast.
You are christian because your parents are, and because their parents were aswell.
You didn't make the decision, it was made for you, and you follow it like a sheep.
You need the bible to tell you what to do because apperantly you are unable to make choices for yourself, you let your entire life be guided by choices others have made for you, you pathetic piece of shit.
Hahaha hi Ken Ham, how's that observational versus historical science made-up bullshit working out for you?
>Let's view the evidence for your "proof" that the earth is over 6000 years old.. When they calibrated their tools
The thing is I didn't give any proof for the world being over 6000 years old.
Here's some though.
Half-life of radioactive materiel
Fossils over millions of years old
Massive coal/gas reserves made up of fossils which could only accumulate over large periods.
>guessing to cement their relationship
lol no. every woman here wants to marry an american to alleviate her from poverty. To be more blunt, they're gold diggers. I'm even guessing she's from Visayas or Mindanao, hell, I'll even guess she does not speak english that well, makes you pray before meals, and only have sex with your father in the missionary position.
lol but fuck it, I'll just try not to hurt your feelings by saying that "they were in love."
>People can be really smart in one area and not know anything about another.
Yes, but most of the time those things bleed into each other, in any case, You are right about the grades thing but the guy knows an insane amount of stuff, Im not sure I can prove it.
It seems to me that you are more close minded than the people you hate so much.
Most kids grow up to be one religion because their parents taught it to them from the time they could understand speech.
It's not correct to assume that a child chose a religion for themselves as any child is prone to actively embrace their own parent's viewpoints and opinions.
That's just nature.
The reason many retain what they learned during childhood is (as well as nature's design) because they are simply used to it and comfortable with it.
Jesus fuck, dude, you've got this shit down.
She's been in the states for something like 30 years and still pronounces her F's as P's.
Roast Beep and such. Not that that's an issue, just something I noticed.
No idea where she's from.
Does make us pray and I'd rather not know how they have sex.
I am willing to believe that they are in love though, because I just want good ole' Dad to be happy.
I assure you I could go beyond on the matter, and that I'm highly developed, as opposed to a primitive being such as yourself who haphazardly states an opinion on my comment with absolutely no worthy retort.
I'm anything but close minded. I do not hate religious people, and there you go again.
Ah I guess I misconstrued your message, my apologies.
This is still not true for all people of a religion though. It's possible in my opinion to be religious and logical, so long as you view religious teachings as more of a tool to live life than simply a black-and-white way of life.
at some point, people who are smart enough to know there is little to no evidence for their old religious beliefs make a choice: they either decide it isn't reasonable to keep believing in them and construct a new philosophy to replace them (e.g. me), or they decide to keep believing them anyway because they want to (e.g. various people I know and have talked to about this). personally I'd rather be intellectually honest than happy, to the extent that religion does actually make anyone happier (probably does for some people). having consistent views isn't as important to some people, though, so they simply choose to keep believing. they also tend to have a much more abstract sort of religious faith -- less literalist, because that would conflict too obviously with their other experiences. so they might believe in god or gods or spirits (met a Russian girl from Siberia who was like this) but they won't typically believe in widespread supernatural miracles or refusing medical care or weird fundamentalist stuff like that.
>I am respectful on the outside, as in I dont give a shit what you believe as long as it doesnt affect me
Yeah that's what I'm saying...
Fuck all those presbertatian, st. Jude's, and any other hospitals started because of Christian beliefs. Fuck the Red Cross and their Christian standards for helping people. How dare they affect me and other people in the world.
I can't believe they would have the nerve to do that shirt...
If everybody wasn't religious laws would be based entirely on personal understanding of morality rather than the teachings of morality from religious texts.
Advancement comes with rationality, and logic. If everybody was religious, we would still be in your favorite time.
There you go again, calling me retarded when you clearly have no idea what you're saying.
Those Establishments function by being unbiased about Religion.
To say that they wouldn't be here without Religion is technically true but also intrinsically hypocritical.
Well, uh, mentally deficit spazz, can I call you? Thanks. Life doesn't have a meaning. You give your life meaning. Evolution explains quite a lot, you should educate yourself.
Because me being an atheist then finding Chist at the age 21 proves this argument, as well as all the arguments that say their parents brain washed them...
Do people actually believes that's the only way people believe in their religion.
We don't say god is a spaghetti monster it's just for you to understand how stupid a dude in the sky is.
Evolution explains a lot a LOT.
I guess you can tell us the meaning of life then?
While you have a point, I also have to bring up "Natural Law" which, as I have said about something separate, function outside the realm of Religious creeds.
Granted the men that put the idea into words were religious, it still stands that even today if nobody was religious Natural Law would still exist.
Where did you get that from?
Where are we now exactly? Well we are becoming more affluent and secure, slowly but surely. It takes time for old practices to be completely demolished, but it will happen.
You literally have to be retarded. I can confirm as your reading comprehension is horrible, more so than the neanderthals.
I clearly said when I "sinned" that I would confess to them and it felt comforting. Where the fuck did you get something retarded like "religion made me do bad things"?
If I'm bait, you're the fucking net.
/b/'s discussions on religion are disgusting to read. So many 16year olds trying to disprove (ONLY the christian, muslim and jewish beliefs), by doubting the existence of a god and how unrelevant the bible is. We even discussed that shit in school (kraut). READ THIS GUYS FUCKING POST
>Those Establishments function by being unbiased about Religion.
>To say that they wouldn't be here without Religion is technically true
How many major humanitarian organizations wouldn't exist without the cause of their original religious beliefs. For some one to say "I don't want someone's else's religious beliefs to affect me" is being quite ignorant to the great impacts that religions have had all over the world.
And also I will not turn a blind eye to the negatives, the disgusting atrocities that occured to religion. The Muslim extremist for one are a disgrace to the human race.
Ironic that you would misquote immediately after claiming I had no reading comprehension.
Here's a quote of your own, word for word:
>If I sinned I felt terrible
Enjoy your frustration and inability to concede / apologise as you'll feel you'll lose your (imaginary) credibility.
I don't deny that Religion has positively affected the world just as I wouldn't deny that the lack of it has negatively affected the world.
That was not what I was implying by posting that, I was simply stating that religious organisations such as the Red Cross and St. Jude function by becoming impartial.
On a side-note, any extremist is a disgrace to the human race.
>Pretending that this is an actual discussion-strategy.
>According to the Barna Group, only 6% of adult Christians made their decision to follow God over the age of 18
> Another survey -- by the International Bible Society Adults age 19 and over have just a 6% probability of becoming Christians.
Didn't add it because I'm a fucking idiot, but I mean to say:
Life is not about extremes. Life is about finding a balance and living happily within it. When one person lives to an extreme, they are simply hurting themselves and others in a misguided search for personal happiness.
Because I know my religion just adds texture to the world and doesn't shape the world. I choose to believe my religion and I understand why others don't agree. It's also agienst my religion to force it on others and act entitled because of it. I'm pastafarian for anyone wondering.
You're certainly the minority.
Excellent refutation of tasteless designations.
That doesn't change the topic. If you're going to move to a different goal post, pack your bags and go. I'll ask again.
Where the fuck did you get something retarded as "Religion made me feel bad for doing bad things?"
I clearly said when I "sinned" I'd confess and it felt comforting.
credibility? That's funny. Refer to your original post considering your use of the generic notional entity.
Philosophy fag here. I'm an atheist A.K.A. physicalist. YOU should take a phil course because obviously you've never heard any arguments going against religion; They're a lot more compelling than the religionfags.
If you can't understand why people are religious you won't understand if someone tries to explain it to you.
With any luck you'll learn why as you get older.
Good place to start if you want to learn: The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell
Really don't understand what specifically you were directing those statements towards.
My thoughts are: Religion shouldn't be taken as literal fact(like many religiousfags do) but it shouldn't be completely and totally rejected either(militant atheist style).
In the words of Campbell - Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.
> how can people be smart, intelligent people, yet still be religious
They aren't intelligent. They've just tricked you into thinking they're intelligent as they're still not quite as stupid as you are. They also have absolutely zero integrity.
Can you explain why you're argument as to why people believe in religion was, "take a philosophy course"? Philosophy isn't all about believing in religion, most philosophers that I know don't believe religion.
When did you first learn about philosophy, last week?
Being smart and having faith are two different things. Smart people can have faith because it helps them through tough times. Personally I believe in what can be proven to me.
>How many major humanitarian organizations wouldn't exist without the cause of their original religious beliefs. For some one to say "I don't want someone's else's religious beliefs to affect me" is being quite ignorant to the great impacts that religions have had all over the world.
Man created religion, so man would surely have been "humanitarian" with or without religion.
I would outright disagree with you on only one point.
>getting good grades does not mean you are smart
Being smart is an application of intelligence. Although one may not have a fair amount of intelligence, if they apply it, they can get good grades. You could be the most intelligent person in the world, Ashkenazi or not, and still have terrible application of intelligence. Likewise, you could get nothing but straight 100's (or more if you take into account correcting mistakes the teacher/professor makes) all your life, but that doesn't mean you're very intelligent.
The attractive, very daft girls in secondary or later education who manage to get amazing grades despite being shallow airheads.
The less attractive girls with more ambition, willingness to learn, and enough intelligence to provide an enjoyable debate in one or more fields.
You're trying too hard to appear intelligent, and it's really making an ass of yourself. Luckily for you we're on an anonymous image board so no one gets to see how you're actually sub-par at everything in life.
No, fucking idiots like you give people a bad name for what other people do. Atheism isn't a belief system. People who are atheists don't represent ANY other people who are atheists without their consent. Stop being such a generalizing, stupid fucking pussy.
You honestly don't make sense
>Describing what athiesm is
where did i show lack of understanding?
>Claiming that im generalizing
Where did I generalize?
>Claiming I give a bad name for what other people do
What the fuck does that even mean?
Is english not your first language or something
Another Campbell quote, if I may:
“Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies.”
note: if you can't figure out what the quote means you really shouldn't be debating this topic.