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Karate or TKD without kata or form
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Are there any schools/disciplines of Karate or TKD that throw kata, forms, and wood breaking out of the window?

I'm looking for a school/discipline that purely focuses on sparring. No "self defense" bullshit.
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>>996420
Kyokushin kata is lip service at best.

Kudo has no kata but that depends on a) deciding whether it qualifies as karate (according to my teacher it does) and b) finding it outside of Japan and Russia.
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>>996420
>I want to do karate but without all that karate bullshit :^)
I know it sounds much cooler to say you're doing karate, but what you want is straight up kickboxing and you can find kickboxing school pretty much everywhere.
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>>996447
>> know it sounds much cooler to say you're doing karate

I'd say its actually embarrassing to say you do karate with the stereotype of the typical TKD or Karate student being what it is
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>>996422

What exatly is Kudo? Basically Karate + Judo?

What makes it different than combat sambo?
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>>996463
Judo, wrestling, karate, sambo, some CMA grip fighting, etc.

It's still got the karate budo shit but without the dancing.

Another notable difference is 12-6 elbows and headbutts are legal in competition.
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>>996420

Karate is always Kata + Kihon + Kumite. But if you do Kyokushin and get you ass beaten in full contact all day, a little Kata here and there won't kill you.


>>996463

Sambo = 90% Judo + some basic punching

Kudo = 90% Kyokushin + some basic Judo
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>>996501
m8 I do kudo. You're way off. Monday and Tuesday are striking. This includes pad work, kuzushi, grip fighting, clinching, etc. Friday and Saturday are grappling. This includes standing locks, transitions, takedowns and ground work. Sunday we don the bubble masks and do proper sparring.
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>>996447
Are there any striking techniques unique to karate or tkd that are not used or allowed in kickboxing?
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>>996558
Under normal amateur kickboxing rules no elbows are allowed. I'm pretty sure there's a limitation on knees too but I'm not sure.
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>>996562
Elbows and knees aren't allowed in Karate or TKD either.
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>>996645
What are you talking about, fullcontact karate allows for both elbows and knees
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVr6tsSYnq8
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUfaHRuG7Rg
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>>996705
Elbows and knees aren't allowed in most Karate styles and TKD either.
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>>996720
>Elbows and knees aren't allowed in most Karate styles
>Elbows and knees aren't allowed in shit Karate styles
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>>996501
Damn, looks like the sambo school in my area has been doing it all wrong, I'll tell Stephan Kofepher to put up his kurka because he hasn't been doing Sambo all these years.
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>>996501
i used to practice Kyokushin, got bad knee injury, i can confirm

>gonna go back there when healed
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>>996420
If you lack the patience to learn forms/katas you shouldn't be learning any kind of fighting skill
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someone tell me why kata is agreed to be an essential part of judo training and you literally can't become proficient in judo without it
yet when it comes to karate kata is considered embarrassing pointless mcdojo shit?

protip: you can't

sub note, if you don't think kata is an essential part of judo you have never done judo so save yourself the trouble here
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>>998484
Because in Judo they are done with a partner to show you exactly how to perform each technique against another human and how this affects them. If we see kata as a means to pass down techniques and drill them safely doing them like so is certainly much more effective than karate's flailing into the air and then having to listen to oftentimes ridiculous bunkai.

And there's still better ways to learn and pass down techniques nowdays.
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>>998572
>karate's flailing into the air
you do realize that kata being preformed that way is the sign of the mcdojo condition, right?
kata is meant to be exactly what you said, a safe way to learn and practice techniques

it isn't supposed to be a dance that gets judged in competitions, or something that is supposed to be memorized and performed with a team in class, its supposed to be used as an individual training tool
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>>998583
Even with picture perfect, so good it'd give Gichin Funakoshi a woody levels of technique during kata, you are still punching and kicking and occassionally doing other motions into the air and then you need to have your sensei tell you that what you are doing has this or that meaning. The disparate as fuck bunkai, many of them fairly ridiculous, across different schools and even between different highly regarded reps within the same karate style/organization just cement that this maybe all needs some reworking.

Judo patterns are still patterns, there's better ways to learn and pass down techniques nowadays, but at the very least they have someone else there with you. It's not alive training, but just having your partner there to act as a recipient, showing you how the presence of the other body affects what you're trying to do and how your technique works on someone, makes it all a hundred times better than karate kata.
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>>998627
not all karate kata is done without a partner, but more importantly there is no better way to learn how to move your body and do techniques properly than to practice at the air
You don't need opposition when you can't even throw the punch into nothing properly
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>>998739
Karate kata are primarily done solo, Judo kata are primarily done with a partner and that's why they're more highly regarded. You asked, I answered.

There's better ways to learn how to do techniques properly such as hitting pads so you figure out distance and how impact feels and get that feedback. Makiwara served much of the same purpose, not just toughening up the skin and knuckles but making sure you figured out just how hitting something feels and what is a good distance for that and whatnot. You can have fantastic technique against nothing but if you have no idea how much it can suck to ram a part of your body against a solid part of another body then you don't actually have a technique that works. You have something for show.

I'm not saying day 1 rookies need to start hardcore pad drills or anything of the sort, but after they've been taught the techniques and internalized them they should move away from hitting air and start, at the very least, practicing with pads, bags and the like. Also now you bring up total beginners but kata is constantly practiced across karate, well past the point where the students already know how to perform their techniques well.
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>>998739
>>998793
The Kara done with more than one partner is referred to as yakusoku kumite
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>>998793
>kata is constantly practiced across karate, well past the point where the students already know how to perform their techniques well.
because once its value as a technique honing tool it spent it still continues to be great low impact exercise, there isn't any reason to stop doing it

seriously, do a decent length kata 2 or 3 times, you will be out of breath. It's a great warm up as well as cool down exercise that gives you the added benefit of still practicing relevant movements unlike say jumping jacks
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>>1000056
>"lol u guys can't even tell me why Judo kata are better"
>this is why they're better
>"but muh krotty kata, lemme shift the goalposts"
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>>996524

With "basic Judo" I didn't mean bad Judo. I was just talking about the range of techniques I've seen. My impression was it's some wrestling techniques included but only a small set of Judo. Which would make sense because there's really A LOT of Judo throws and if you split your time in half (because the striking/kicking part) you might want to be master of some techniques instead of knowing a lot of techniques not very well.


>>996766

God you guys are touchy..
I don't who Stephan Kofepher is and I couldn't care less. There's a huge overlap between Sambo and Judo (one of the Sambo founders was a Judoka) + some fancy leglocks and wrestling shit. Or are you pissed because I wrote "basic striking"? What's wrong about that? Simple doesn't mean bad, it just mean you won't see a Wheel kick or something here.


>>998484

> you literally can't become proficient in judo without it

Right. Because no Kata = no grading.
You don't like it? Create your own damn fighting system then.
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>>1001085
>I'm going to spout shit about what I've never tried then get mad when who actually train the styles tell me I don't know what I'm talking about
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>>1001047
there was no goal post shifting, judo kata isn't better. End of story
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>>1001318
>simple, to the point two man drills with a partner to show you how to apply techniques against someone and how the technique affects them
>not better than overly long theatric performances against nothing where application is up to whoever's leading the class at the time

If you like ethnic dancing so much there's better options.
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>>1001468
>two man drills with a partner to show you how to apply techniques
sound a lot like muh compliance! you guys are always complaining about
>overly long theatric performances
not in any way what kata means, thats a made up thing that people started doing in competitions. Training kata is nothing like that, its simply a way to practice moves
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>>996420
>i'm looking for a traditional martial art without the traditional
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>>1001106

Basically you're just insulting me without adding any further information. Cool.

So enlighten me then:
Does Kudo have all throws of Judo? I can only judge from what I've seen (shame on me) and from what I've Kudo doesn't look like "Judo + Kyokushin" but rather like a subset of both. Which is NOT meant to belittle Kudo.
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>>996420
If OP is still around. Yes. Come to my school in LA
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>>1001611
There is no set range of techniques. Your question is the same as asking "does MMA include all judo throws"
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>>1001497
>two man drills with a partner to show you how to apply techniques
sound a lot like muh compliance! you guys are always complaining about

I'm not him, but those "complaint" kata in judo are adaptions of the fundamental training method of jujutsu, they are and were proven teaching devices,

karate kata on the other hand, come from the chinese tradtion, and while I do not doubt they were at sometime part of an effective system, most karate does not resemble Okinawan Te in terms of its training methods
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>>1001689
>I do not doubt they were at sometime part of an effective system
Really? I do.
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>>1001676

Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. Kudo has belts, so it has belt requirements. It also teaches throws, so either any Kudo teacher can choose which techniques he wants to teach (which would would be terrible) or it has a fixed set of techniques.
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>>1001721
You dont think Te was an effective system? Keep in mind it was pretty different from most karate
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>>1001724
Grading is decided two ways, competition results and demonstrating proficiency in a range of techniques. White belt grading, for example is straight punches and front kick + roundhouse.

Actual training is very free form. Someone's got problems with kuzushi? We're doing kuzushi drills. A couple weeks ago we spent an hour on spinning elbows because someone asked the coach about it. Everyone at my specific dojo has significant experience in other styles so dunno if it'd work differently if there was a full noob around though.
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>>1001497
>sound a lot like muh compliance! you guys are always complaining about
Yes, which is why it's been said from the first post that replied to you that there's better ways of teaching and training. Learn to read.
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>>1001910
>there's better ways of teaching and training
you have no way of proving this at all, there is absolutely no study or sample size of people that have practiced compliance drills and kata being worse fighters than those who haven't

you only have your opinion, not facts
For fucks sake even bjj has compliance drills
closed guard>arm bar>triangle>omoplota>triangle
repeat 50 times every day until you can make those transitions in your sleep
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>>1002377
And yet Judo, BJJ and any other well regarded martial art that's been shown to work effectively as-is on a consistent basis places a large amount of importance on sparring as a way to properly polish technique. Kano's emphasis on Randori was what really set Judo apart from existing schools of Jujutsu.

So yeah, everything points to your pantomimes not really teaching you how to fight.
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>>1003388
> Kano's emphasis on Randori was what really set Judo apart from existing schools of Jujutsu.

Well not really, sparring and challenge matches were already pretty common by Kano's era
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>>1003388
who said sparring isn't important? but I will continue to ride this conor mcgregor hype train and reject all assertions that nothing but heavy sparring is the way to train when the guy spends most of his time whiffing at the air and hitting pads to practice techniques with no resistance
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>>1003388

Of course Judo is great because the huge emphasis of Randori. But don't leave out the rest!

Look at a tree: It grows upwards and downwards. While the branches give height, and people look at the blossoms and fruits as "result", the roots are what really enables the tree to carry those fruits and makes the tree stable.

Therefore it's not only about learning more techniques and throwing as much opponents as possible. It's also about in-depth knowledge.

The cycle goes like this:
1) Learn a new technique or a variant of a known technique
2) Do Uchi Komi of it as much as possible
3) Use it in Randori
4) Repeat Step 2 and 3 until you can sucessfully use it
5) Get deeper understanding
6) Go back to step 1


And here's what great Koga has to say about the importance of good Uchi Komi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JoPK7T1JVE
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>>1002377
>>1003388
>>1003553
>http://www.cagesideseats.com/2012/12/8/3669792/the-forgotten-golden-age-of-mma-part-two-the-rise-of-judo-dawn-of-new-age-john-nash/in/3477185?_ga=1.219915355.35017304.1455509480
>http://www.cagesideseats.com/2012/12/22/3669814/the-forgotten-golden-age-of-mma-part-iv-ultimate-fighting-of-the/in/3477185
>>1003388
>So yeah, everything points to your pantomimes not really teaching you how to fight.
Bullshit. Forms are integral to learning a style and there are nearly no martial arts without singular sets of patterns made to learn and hone your basic movements, practice stances and stance changes and for them to be drilled and repeated again and again. Kata in the case of Karate is one of three basics along with Kihon and Kumite. And it is said that without basics, there is no Karate. Karate also practices form applications though bunkai. These patterns and kata very much do help you learn to fight and if you want to do anything more advacenced you damn sure better have mastered your basics and continue to practice and perfect them. If you don't personally like kata then do something else, But they most certainly aren't useless and definitely should not be neglected.
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>>1007315
I agree with this. This
>you must spar full contact all day errday
meme that is getting promoted by r/martial arts and /asp/ is a joke.

I remember well when my boxing coach gave a big angry speech about people asking him for free sparring when they can't even keep they hands up for a full round. But they feel they need to spar more and get hit in the face more for some reason.
Sparring =/= sparring.
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>>1016961
>During the Edo period, only samurai were legally allowed to train in armed or unarmed combat,

This is blatantly untrue, not only did peasants dominate most jujutsu schools, they filled most kenjutsu schools as well.

Though this article is a lot better than many of the pseudo-histories of early judo floating around
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>>1017164
Rest.
Intro
>http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/12/22/3795828/some-holiday-reading-forgotten-golden-age-of-mixed-martial-arts
Part 1
>http://www.cagesideseats.com/2012/12/1/3669774/the-forgotten-golden-age-of-mma-part-i-the-golden-age-of-wrestling/in/3477185?_ga=1.241263040.35017304.1455509480
Part 3
>http://www.cagesideseats.com/2012/12/15/3669800/the-forgotten-golden-age-of-mma-part-3-sherlock-holmes-les-apaches/in/3477185?_ga=1.219915355.35017304.1455509480
>>
>>1017906
Personally I dont think Kano's judo was techinqually very different from its jujutsu forebears. Lots of people trained in two or more schools and started their own art. Lots of jujutsu guys did randori.

I think Kano's success came from several things.
1.jujutsu and the martial arts in general were in decline when he appeared.

2. he put together a very effective curriculum

3.He worked with Jujusuka, aggressively recruiting people from other styles

4.He got judo adopted by the police and schools.

I dont mean to dispute Kano's genius, He certainly improved jujutsu in many technical areas, but its often suggested that he Invented all this new stuff, but most of it he just adapted from older schools, something that every does when they start a new martial art
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>>1001497
>Training kata is nothing like that, its simply a way to practice moves

So if we look up the list of kata for a style on Wikipedia those aren't the exact same kata people are doing in competitions?

Pull the other one. It's got bells on.
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>>1019756
>So if we look up the list of kata for a style on Wikipedia those aren't the exact same kata people are doing in competitions?
Yes, but have been been turned into this
>overly long theatric performances
merely for show and to win a contest.It is almost exclusively the fault of comps that make kata like this and giving points and wins to kata that are done in this stupid manner (this doesn't even get into the mcdojo's that look at these competition kata and teach that's how it's done as well, further propagating these jokes of kata).
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