Retard here with questions for other of martial artists, whether or not they studied WC.
I have informal background from a Sifu in college, i.e. we trained a couple of times a month to every other month or so in a gym or in a park.
I'm starting in a formal school now, if finances allow (I have one free lesson), and i'm wondering about training outside of class.
1. Will videos and books help supplement my training enough to make a difference? Example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1F-vXRFgyM (although this guy looks like bullshit a quarter of the time)
and this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ic3Y9Jh3VE (this helped a bit on forms and movements from what I can tell)
2. Should I bother going to a school if I don't know I can make it to more than 1-4 meetings a month? (I work crappy hours)
3. As this is going to be a foundation, not the final product, what should I focus on next, like grappling or weapons, and should I study now or wait until I'm proficient in Wing Chun?
Thanks for any help/advice
A couple times every month or other month with some guy in a park probably puts you at barely above a completely clueless boob tier, so the good news is you still have time to do something worthwhile.
Videos and books can help as a supplement if their quality is good and you actually train what you read/watch and see what works and what doesn't.
If you can't even do at least twice a week don't even bother paying for a school unless it's cheap as fuck.
Train in sanshou/sanda if you absolutely must have something chinese, it's pretty much the only worthwhile thing out there.
If you want to be able to use techniques effectively, you need to do a lot of drilling to make the movements muscle memory, and you need to do a lot of sparring, because you need to do the move at the right times.
Because arts like Boxing, Kickboxing, Judo, and BJJ, are taught with an emphasis on technique and sparring, fighters who train them become successful.
And because of misinterpretations of this, along with ignorance, delusion is created, leading people to believe that arts ling Wing Chun are useless.
Some moves may be more difficult to utilize than others, and people interpret this as: the moves don't work.
That interpretation leads to delusion.
So, shitposting on /asp/ occurs.
So, to develop fighting skill, it'd be more efficient to just learn Kickboxing, Muay Thai, or Kyokushin Karate, given that you find a good gym.
If you think of Wing Chun in more of a spiritual way, a way to discipline yourself, and a way to develop your body, /asp/ will generally respect that after reminding you that they thing arts like Wing Chun are useless.
Thank you all. I should have mentioned that I've trained in Kyokushin before Wing Chun, but whatever.
My goal is to have Wing Chun as a foundation (centerline, economy of motion, etc) but I plan on expanding into other fighting styles, a la Bruce Lee if you will;
Would anyone recommend bodyweight exercises to develop muscle over weightlifting, or do I have to lift again? Practically, I mean.
Thanks again for answering my questions.
The stance was a good stone-age theory, but with modern data, it's pretty useless, and makes you too immobile.
Change your foot placement, and everything else should be just dandy.
I don't care if you decide to take my advice, though.
Do with it what you will.
>first of all remember to stand very squared up, okay, you gotta present the biggest target possible so the other guy gets overconfident
>then when he inevitably comes to attack you, you do this long sequence of traps and countertraps that the other guy will totally indulge you in, right, because everyone works trapping and tries to counter a handtrap with another
>When you beat a guy that doesn't use Wing Chun at Wing Chun, you throw a million noodly arm punches, don't bother using any real means of power generations, just tantrum that bitch up and you'll get it
yeah nah WC as it's taught in 99% of schools is just garbo, like most CMA. It happens when a community insists upon isolationism, perpetuating bullshit myths, getting stuck on lineage and never ever updates their curriculum, cross trains or even actually engages in sparring with other styles to see what works and what doesn't.
Stance is more of an isometric exercise from what I've read in books and on /asp/
I haven't been in the school for very long so if it turns out to be strict lineage "My way or the highway" crap I'm dropping. I may not be able to fight, but I can talk a good one. (sorry if that sounds insulting)
>first of all remember to stand very squared up, okay, you gotta present the biggest target possible so the other guy gets overconfident
Biggest target for what? Push kicks? Straight punches to the body? Standing square doesn't make your head any bigger, and doesn't make you easier to hit with round kicks or hook punches. I'm no chunner but I stand square as hell and it works for me. The only thing that gets me is I get knocked on my ass by inside leg kicks pretty easily.
1. Getting more information, sources, interpretations and points of view can always do you good as long as you don't get confused, you actually get some solid guidance to ground it and you do proper actual practice and training.
As for sources try book's which were co-authored by/derived from the notes of Bruce Lee. The old grainy wing chun and jkd videos with Asian guys tend to be legit. IDK much about this master wong guy but just from first impressions his accent sounds kinda fake but his technique looks good.
2. I agree with >>910381
You need to train at least twice a week if you want to actually do anything beyond verifying some basic techniques. That goes for any martial art or sport. You can't get any physical development if you train less than twice a week. However, if this is what you really want to do and you have no other choice then you'll just be to make do with it. I'd recommend maybe joining up with some other gyms that have more flexible times like a MT, boxing, judo, BJJ or whatever else sort martial art.
3. If you want to learn traditional WC weapons then yeah wait till you're proficient in WC and your sifu think you're ready but otherwise no need to limit yourself.
If you're trying to emulate Bruce Lee then you might as well go straight to JKD. From reading his notes and literature surrounding his martial arts style and practice WC didn't have as big a part as you might think. Rather its just what he stumbled into and got him started, ultimately he deviated from it more heavily as time went on. I think his style has greater elements of fencing and TKD than WC.
See if you can dig up some of the old /asp/ calisthenics thread for body weight training discussions. If you can manage to join another gym and train another art there more regularly then I don't think there's a huge need for dedicated self-exercise since most place incorporate some into their program anyway.
Anyway that's my word. Best of luck in your martial arts!
Compared to a side or even 3/4 stance from a boxing perspective:
You present more of your torso for striking.
You now have to put more windup for your jabs/weak side strikes.
You lose punching length, or have to compensate more with more twisting motion. In a game of economy with moments these are absolutely killer wastes.
You lose a lot of rotational power from your straights/strong hand.
You lose your foundation and are easier to knock off balance.
>My goal is to have Wing Chun as a foundation (centerline, economy of motion, etc)
tbqh famm this is not the best idea. If you want economy of motion and being able to take the center or angles you're better off learning something that you will be able to actually apply against a resisting opponent, like boxing or kick boxing, or wrestling.
>Would anyone recommend bodyweight exercises to develop muscle over weightlifting
Nope. Hopefully no one that replies to you is stupid enough to either.
Now that's not to say body weight exercises don't have their place, they very much do. But lifting and body weight training go hand in hand. Building the Gymnastic Body is good starter for bodyweight training, but you should be doing the big three (OHP/Bench, Squat, Deadlift) as well. I would recommend Oly lifting too for developing explosiveness, but the Clean & Jerk and Snatch are skilled movements that take a lot of technique training before you start piling on the plates.
>My goal is to have Wing Chun as a foundation (centerline, economy of motion, etc) but I plan on expanding into other fighting styles, a la Bruce Lee if you will;
Getting a foundation in the Chun is probably a bad idea. I say this because, to me, it's always seemed like an art that's way too theoretical for its own good. The principles behind it are good, but the execution ends up being terrible due to poor practice (which is self-explanatory and gets talked about all the time), and too much theorizing.
Take trapping, for example. It's a cool idea, but when someone is actually trying to hit you, they're probably not going to act in a predictable way that'll let you do the redirect, block, and punch back at the same time thing. The same thing goes for chain-punching; in theory, it works, but in reality, you're just throwing a bunch of weak arm punches, which isn't going to accomplish much. And as someone else stated before, the footwork has an interesting idea behind it, but ends up being terrible. Coincidentally, Bruce Lee completely abandoned WC footwork pretty early on; JKD footwork is based mostly on fencing.
In fact, Bruce Lee is a good example of the limitations of Wing Chun. During the fight with Wong Jack Man, nothing happened and there was a draw (not according to his estate, but it's what seems likely). Right afterwards, Lee realized Wing Chun wasn't getting him anywhere because it was all theoretical, and he branched out.
I guess I never ran into a lot of those problems because I have a karate background and a lot of natural power. Since there isn't a lot of standing "in the pocket" in karate, your range is determined more by how far you step/lunge in than by how you turn your upper body. Likewise with weak side vs. strong side, there isn't really such a thing in karate. Not saying you're wrong; I can see how standing square would put you at a disadvantage in boxing, where there's a higher likelihood of a prolonged striking exchange, instead of potshots and blitzes.
I personally like standing somewhat square because it lets me have equal power in my lead & rear hand punches, and it gives me a strong lead leg round kick that I can use without a switch or a step. I also find it easier to move laterally this way.
Note: for all of this I'm talking about a stance where my torso is square and my feet are on a 45 degree angle relative to the line between me and my opponent. Feet square would be super unstable and you'd probably get knocked down by jabs.
>I personally like standing somewhat square because it lets me have equal power in my lead & rear hand punches, and it gives me a strong lead leg round kick that I can use without a switch or a step. I also find it easier to move laterally this way.
That's essentially why Bas Rutten preferred a square stance.
Perhaps, with clear minds, we may more easily walk the path of truth.
Let us remove ourselves from trying to argue our points, and discrediting the points of others.
Let us consider why the arguments of others may contain the truth.
May we find peace in the present moment, so we may look back at the path behind us traveled.
I train wing chun for almost 3 years and I've seen people come and go. Different kind of people. Ones were regulars others trained sporadically.
If you want your trainings to be effective you have to be a regular.
So to answer your question briefly: No 1-4 trainings per month will not help you at all. In fact I think its a waste of time. You wont even develop soft structure which is the base concept of wing chun.
For future reference train one thing at the time. If you want to train wing chun focus on that untill you are profficent.
>wing chun sucks
yea wing chun isnt for everyone. You need at least 3x as much time and effort to become profficent but when you do you will stop those other guys (unless its bjj or wrestling - those guys can defeat anybody)
Google Wing Chun vs any other striking art and watch them lose
Google Wing Chun vs Wing Chun and see them flail like half trained boxers, and flinch kick-checks against every move opponent makes, getting them swept over and over against anyone throwing low roundhouses to the back leg.
If you need three times as much effort to even make Wing Chun "work" (compared to what I don't know since you don't say), wouldn't it be better to just put three times as much effort into a more practical system that takes less effort to reach basic viability?
Let me put it this way.
Before I started wing chun I trained koykushin-kan and it was just basic training like to get better you need to become stronger. There was almost no technique involved you just had to become stronger and faster. We trained few basic hits and kicks over and over again. From the talks with my collegues its the same in muay thai and most other martial arts
In wing chun the focus is on technique.
Technique alone will not win you fights. This is why wing chun is great basis for great martial artist.
Another thing is sparring. There is no sparring in wing chun just learning biomechanics and learning how to use them to your advantage.
>In wing chun the focus is on technique.
>Technique alone will not win you fights. This is why wing chun is great basis for great martial artist.
Have you ever live sparred with someone from a different art for longer than 5 minutes? I especially mean Boxing, a grappling art, muay thai, or any other combat proven art?
I;m not anative english speaker and I have some difficulty trainslating my thoughts to english.
What I meant is that you can be great in technique but stronger and faster opponent will kick your ass 100% of the time.
And besides there is no "most effective martial art" and talks like that are for people that never trained anything or dont know what they are talking about.
At the end of the day all martial arts is just a form of a hobby. You get better at it if you put time into it. You will most likely kick ass of some drunk idiot that bothers you at the bar but thats it. No martial arts will make you walking killing machine like in the movies.
Lol, sorry what data? What does that even mean?
I mean like has been used in a contact sport/competition and not just done in slo-mo or with a hamstrung ruleset. Tested against opponents who want to hurt you.
I'll just take that post as a deflection and a "no" though. Enjoy your "it works on paper" martial art.
You're not making any sense. You bitch about Kyokushin's and other proven martial arts' conditioning training and praise Wing Chun for focusing on technique and call it a great basis, yet say that technique alone will not win you fights and that someone stronger and faster (results of proper conditioning training) will kick your ass.
Also, you know how you learn to use all that biomechanics stuff that every martial art learns and how to apply it against a resisting opponent? By sparring. Which by your own admission Wing Chun doesn't. Nowadays we can actually compare the general performance of schools of martial arts via competition and determine what schools teach something that works against a trained, resisting opponent and which ones are worse by virtue of not teaching as much useful stuff. I agree there's no "most effective", but there's definitely "less effective", which seems to apply to every school of chinese martial arts.
Kyokushin has proven itself amongst striking styles in kickboxing, producing many a world champion, and consistently churns out tough as nail dudes. You have to be to even think to attempt a 100 man kumite. Andy Hug beat many of the best kickboxers in the world while literally dying of leukemia. A strong base and a strong conditioning regimen are not in any way a bad thing, and solid training in basic but effective techniques are what makes the foundations of a good fighter.
What the fuck has Wing Chun ever done.
1. Video will give you concepts, but unless you practice them with a partner it's not worth it.
2. You should be training at least twice a week, for at least an hour each of those days. You also should be working out six times a week with a day of rest. If you want to learn something, you need to invest time into it.
3. Wing Chun is an interesting style, but as I always say the school is more important than the style. Classes should be a rotation of fitness, form, technique and sparring. Also if they have a sanshou program, get into it as soon as possible.
I did a Wing Chun seminar at my schools annual boot camp and have a bit of understanding on the style. Lots of angled strikes and "sticky hands", and the stance has some merit (you don't keep your feet pointed in when you punch).
>and thinking that raw data means anything?
Okay, so what analysis of actual fighters in combat sports 99% not using Wing Chun (and those that do get BTFO on fucking video) would get you to another conclusion?
OP here, surprised (but glad) this thread is still here after a few days.
After reading the comments here, I've been very cautious and hesitant to continue wing chun training. I can already see obvious limitations (stance, footwork, slow pace of training) but I'm curious about practicality of the techniques (chain punching, blocks).
I feel bad because I looked up to my old Sifu as a great man that took the time and patience to train me, as well as the new Sifu I could've had that let my introductory lesson pay for the rest of January (lessons that I can't make now because of work) and I think he thinks I'm trying to steal from him (technique and positions, of which I learned maybe one thing).
So, I do have more questions to posit to the group here if you're bored of pro-wrestling.
a) I want to learn Wing Chun, but with a $200 per month fee, as many as I can make it classes three times a week, a work schedule that never stays constant so I might not be able to attend any, on top of all that rent and family trips I need to take, is taking formal classes worth it?
In short, can I learn WC through videos and books on my own, or do I need to man up and go to the classes
b) To practice general fighting ability, should I just look for a sparring partner (I've been thinking about asking /r9k/ as I'm obviously autistic enough to fit in)
c) Keeping WC in as a part of my personal style, whether I go to classes or self-teach, should I study something else and if so what?
I know I've gotten a lot of different answers and I appreciate everything this board has given, and I apologize if I'm repeating myself.
I'm locked in a mental puzzle, on the one hand I want to make my old Sifu proud by becoming good at Wing Chun, on the other hand, money, efficiency/proficiency and time.
You're all fantastic, thanks for any answers you have and be well. /end blog rant
The school I'm thinking of going to has one hour classes, first half is Si Lum Tau and second half is basic drills. Fitness I can do on my own but sparring was never really mentioned if I remember correctly.
If you decide to look at other options, look at boxing. Finding a cheap gym isn't a rarity and it'll probably make your wing chun better, based on what I've heard from chunners. Personally it's not my cup of tea, but I won't go full
>its shit, drop it
Since you get enough of that.
>$200 per month
Not worth it, especially since you might only be able to attend very few classes.
Personally, I don't think studying Wing Chun is dumb. I think that studying Wing Chun as a basis to getting into MMA is a bad choice, but Wing Chun for its own sake is fine. You will only fight other people in the art unless you really want to fight other people.
Maybe you won't be an incredible fighter, but that's probably irrelevant. MMA fighting is dangerous and it will require a lot more of you than, perhaps, you are willing or able to give. Street fights never have to happen, and, if you train with them in mind, you will be more likely to seek them out.
So, if you want to do a martial art, then do it because it's fun and helpful. If a martial art is fun and keeps you healthy, then it's worth pursuing regardless of how effective it is in an octagon that you will never be inside, or in a street fight that you will never need to fight.
That's actually one of the best answers to any question I've ever had in my life.
I guess I haven't grown out of the "Autistic manchild uses TKD to fight off all of the ninjas and gets the girl" fantasies. I have this dream of becoming a great martial arts master, passing it along to my daughter and just holding a quiet but wise stance throughout life.
But nowadays, especially if you're cautious, street fights don't happen (but there's sense in being prepared for one) and I don't plan on going MMA.
Thanks for the advice, Anon.
If the guy actually thinks you're trying to steal his secrets of Wing Chun, he's a shit teacher perpetuating a terrible mentality that stifles the growth of martial arts in the year of our lord 2016, where everyone with a bit of common sense is doing their best to cross-train and learn as much good stuff as they can from any source.
200 bucks per month and you think you might make at most 4 meetings a month is not a good deal. You can't really learn that much on your own. You can take ideas, specific moves, supplemental material from books and videos and whatnot, sure, but for an actual honest to goodness learning a martial art experience you need someone to guide you and iron out the kinks in the process.
To practice actual fighting ability you need at least semi-regular sparring, preferably more than one guy, and preferably of varied sizes and styles. It also needs to be done either with someone you know and can trust or in an environment that'll ensure things don't go out of hand. Any decent school with have this or at least approximate this, looking up some guy and going "hey wanna chun" is a terrible idea.
If you absolutely have to insist on Wing Chun which you admit you know little of for whatever reason, look up any place that does Sanshou/Sanda. It's chinese kickboxing and that type of sparring/fighting used to be integral to serious curriculums of chinese martial arts before it became all about flowery form for the sake of clientelism. It's even got some grappling since it allows a lot of throws and takedowns but no ground fighting.
>MMA fighting is dangerous
Not any more than, say, boxing or kickboxing or anything that spars full contact regularly. The heavy grappling element serves to keep it much safer than striking only styles. Also you seem to imply that training in MMA/wanting to stick to what is martially efficient in a proven setting is training for street fights, which is laughable.
>I'm curious about practicality of the techniques (chain punching, blocks).
So are most WC practitioners, given they've never sparred in their own school, let alone with someone not doing WC. All jokes aside, some of the concepts such as crowding power, controlling the center, trapping and low-line kicks are good. But what you need to remember is that even Aikido, the biggest punchline in the martial community, has some workable concepts. It's how they're trained that matters and that is typically deficient.
By way of examples: Wing Chun places a ton of emphasis on trapping and counter trapping, doing these flowing sequences that look nice and all but will only be indulged by other WC people and maybe some Filipino Martial Arts guys. But doing a quick trap to a lead to sneak in a good punch is a perfectly applicable idea often seen in boxing, kickboxing and MMA.
Wing Chun applies flurries and occupies the center by way of rapid fire punches that have little power generation behind them since they're mostly done via arm motions rather than using weight transfer and hip rotation. They're also done typically moving forward, putting you at risk of running right into a counter. But if instead of that you actually train how to crowd a guy via proper combinations with power behind the strikes, it's a solid idea, and you can keep the center occupied by doing something as simple as holding out your arms to block the other guy's. By way of combat sports example, George Foreman would fight with arms outstretched and palms held out, blocking the path of straight punches and forcing the opponents to try and go around, at which point he'd nail them with his ramrod jab.
See what I'm getting at? You can take Wing Chun concepts and try to apply them to things that teach better, more proven fighting methods and you will probably wind up better for it than if you trained Wing Chun, which like the vast, vast majority of chinese martial arts has become a fossil.
>Not any more than, say, boxing or kickboxing or anything that spars full contact regularly
Agreed on technicality. Judo, jiu-jitsu, and wrestling are safer. However, Wing Chun is not often practiced with full-contact headpunching. It is generally more of a semi-contact martial art in practice.
And that makes the hard, headhunting-centric martial arts that make up the MMA meta significantly more harmful to oneself than Wing Chun.
>you seem to imply that training in MMA/wanting to stick to what is martially efficient in a proven setting is training for street fights, which is laughable.
I clearly separated the two, but I don't think it would be erroneous to say that a boxer will have more success as a street bully than most people who practice Wing Chun.
Regardless, "martial efficiency" is irrelevant outside of the octagon or off of the street, because when you are practicing a martial art, you will generally only compete with others in the same art.
You have the knowledge of what it takes to be a good fighter, but I don't believe that your priorities are healthy. The OP doesn't need to be a good MMA fighter - but he can be a good competitor within any martial art, if he tries hard.
I don't think this Wing Chun school will be the answer for him, but I believe that the art is a good option for him, among many others that you consider to be trash because they are not "martially efficient."
Martial arts are, by virtue of the very term used to define them, a collection of fighting methods. We can get into an argument about the use of martial as related to military versus the use of martial as simply related conflict but a martial art is a codified fighting method. I place importance on this fighting aspect. The vast, vast majority of people take up martial arts because they want to know how to fight, be it to feel safer or to feel badass or whatever, they want to know how to be strong and fight, it is the focus of the pursuit and I believe a base human instinct.
Well, we live in an era where cross training and the spread of information has allowed more and more people to strip away the unhealthy veneer of mysticism and secret knowledge that martial arts used to have, where you needed to seclude yourself in some ancient temple in China to achieve true asskickery or even worse, pay the so-called grandmaster down the street out the ass for his great secret wisdom. Nowadays people can actually see what fighting is like and the myriad of ways one can be good at it without all of that bullshit in the way. This is wonderful.
I believe that one can be physically healthy and undergo personal development with the martial arts without having to sacrifice the things that make them martial. In fact, I think that you can grow so much more with these things I advocate (styles that use pressure testing, cross-training) because you're constantly pushed to break past your limitations and grow and broaden your horizon than by memorizing the forms and techniques your sifu shows you while always wondering in the back of your mind whether this shit will actually work.
We are simply at a disagreement, and maybe a misunderstanding.
> martial arts because they want to know how to fight
Well, who do they plan on fighting? There's no reason to fight people these days, and I'm not sure that I agree that most people take up martial arts to become fighters. You see a lot of people who take martial arts for fitness and health, fun and competition. Competition can give a person the same rush that your idea of fighting does.
>unhealthy veneer of mysticism and secret knowledge
I certainly don't follow the path of mysticism, so we are at an agreement. I think that mysticism can be very healthy outside of the martial arts, but I don't think it's usually a good idea within them.
>Nowadays people can actually see
I don't think it can be stated enough just how wonderful it is that we live in an age where all people have access to what is basically infinite knowledge.
>I believe that one can be physically healthy and undergo personal development with the martial arts without having to sacrifice the things that make them martial.
> than by memorizing the forms
I don't think just memorizing movements is very good for most people. I think a lot of people enjoy competition as well. Remember, though - Wing Chun does have competitions. Tae Kwon Do might be the best example of a highly competitive martial art that doesn't generally see daylight in the octagon or elsewhere. I don't believe that competing against other styles is necessary for the kind of growth you advocate, because there are so many forms of competition.
I believe that most people rightfully treat martial arts as sports, but there is nothing wrong with training for UFC-style competition as your element of fun. However, that element of fun comes at the cost that you'll be taking more injuries and damage. You don't need to pursue unhealthy practices in order to compete with other artists.
>Well, who do they plan on fighting? There's no reason to fight people these days, and I'm not sure that I agree that most people take up martial arts to become fighters. You see a lot of people who take martial arts for fitness and health, fun and competition. Competition can give a person the same rush that your idea of fighting does.
The appeal of martial arts is in their martiality. Whether people admit this to themselves or not doesn't matter, whether they'll get to use this or not does not matter. If you want to be fit and healthy and compete there's a myriad of options that don't involve something meant to teach you how to fight. You can run, you can swim, you can bike, a shitload of options.
People learn martial arts because their purpose is passing along knowledge of fighting, with everything this implies. Whether they'll get to use it or not, it is having that knowledge that drives people to seek these things out. Maybe they were inspired to be a badass by a movie, a TV show or a comic, maybe they wanted to defend themselves from a bully when they were young or because they felt it'd be good to know something to defend yourself with just in case, myriad of reasons, but you learn a martial art to know how to fight on some level.
So, if you're seeking out martial arts to learn how to fight, why not seek out martial arts that teach you proven ways to fight and train in such a way that you can see for yourself what works and what doesn't? Wing Chun might have competitions but without actively sparring full contact as part of the training curriculum it means little or nothing for its application as a martial art.
You can only learn fighting by fighting. If you're never forced to face up to and overcome the stress and challenges of standing in front of someone wanting to hurt you in some way and trying to apply what you were taught in such a situation then you're just deluding yourself, and that shit could be dangerous for you.
Taekwondo is competitive but at the same time seen as a joke in the martial arts community because it's become entirely about commercializing itself and doing flashy shit for the sake of establishing an identity to separate it from its karate roots, doing a whole lot to kill its credibility in martial application in the process. Olympic rules neuter it so bad that much like every point sparring karate style it becomes a glorified game of tag, and this doesn't teach you a whole lot about fighting. Competition is good, but it's so much better when it is actually performed full contact and full speed to actually put what you learned to good use.
I don't think you have to compete against other styles like some kind of batshit old school dojo crusher, but I do feel cross-training to get as wide a look into the spectrum of martial arts as possible is ideal. Instead of pigeonholing yourself you're actually made to see that while you might be the shit in boxing or Muay Thai, you're just another noob in wrestling or BJJ, for example. It's humbling and creates much more opportunities for actual personal growth than sticking to one thing and being happy just with that. Of course, if you can actually find places to compete against others who bring different things to the table, that's great, they'll learn from you and you from them.
I do like that you keep saying training things that actually test themselves is unhealthy though, really shows where you're coming from. I mean never mind that the only people in risk of accruing serious damage in, say, amateur boxing are those who regularly compete at the highest levels such as Golden Gloves competitions. Or that BJJ is well known for being a healthy practice even for those of advanced age while still actually pressure testing what they do and putting a premium on application. You can treat martial arts as whatever you like, but they're meant to teach you how to fight, so you might as well actually learn that.
Both work, really. Judo will teach you some degree of submission knowledge and you'll learn to manipulate clothing for grips. Unfortunately Judo rules mean you won't learn much ground game (unless you find yourself someone teaching Kosen Judo) and the focus on throws can be a bit iffy, since in a self defense situation they can end with you on the floor as well and in non-Judo competition a lot of them put you at a huge risk of giving up your back.
Conversely, wrestling lacks submissions but it will give you a much stronger positional game, making it much harder for you to be thrown or tackled to the ground, and it doesn't have Judo's reliance on gi grips that can be an issue when you're competing/fighting against someone that's not wearing a thick jacket with long sleeves. It's also very good training for explosive movement, which is a good thing to have and which can help make your striking stronger.
Really, I'd say you should go with whatever's got the better quality of instruction. If they're about equal pick based on comfort, meaning distance, price, class schedule etc.
>The appeal of martial arts is in their martiality. Whether people admit this to themselves or not doesn't matter, whether they'll get to use this or not does not matter.
For you. To me, the appeal is that the competition is more interesting, aggressive, and personal than the competitions in other solo-priented sports.
>BJJ is well known for being a healthy practice
We are in agreement here. I never said otherwise.
>things that actually test themselves is unhealthy though
I didn't say this. I said taking headshots is unhealthy.
You are having a difficult time expanding your perspective. I stated that we are simply at a difference of opinion, so we should just leave it at that. Your approach to things isn't my approach to things.
Try to accept that different people have different reasons for getting into the martial arts, and though those reasons may not appeal to you, they are all still legitimate.
>I am learning a thing defined as a codified system of combat practices
>I swear the fighting bit isn't what interests me
You're either lying to yourself or retarded.
>I didn't say this. I said taking headshots is unhealthy.
No you didn't, you generally implied that mixed martial arts training is dangerous, then switched to the headshot-centric thing even though two cornerstones of mixed martial arts are wrestling and BJJ.
I have outlined a number of reasons why people get into martial arts, but studying something meant to teach you how to fight means you're interested in learning how to fight. And if you want to learn how the fight, the fact of life is that there's some things that are better than others and you're better off learning those.