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Girlfriend hit my son.
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I'm a single father and I have a 6 year old son. I've been dating this girl for 2 years. She's had little involvement with my son, on purpose. I didn't want to shoehorn her into my son's life until I thought something serious was there. About a month ago I started letting her come over to my house and in turn allowed her to be around my son because I thought she seemed suitable enough to be around him.

Last weekend she was over at my house and everything was fine. Unfortunately I had gotten a call from work that some shit was happening and I needed to come down. I didn't have time to book a babysitter or anything so I asked my girlfriend if she would look after my son for 2-3 hours while I dealt with this. I have never asked her to look after my kid before but I trusted her enough to look after him for a couple hours.

I did what I had to do and came home and my son comes up to me in tears and he tells me that my girlfriend hurt him. I talked to her and asked her what happened.

My son is a hyper kid, he's a little boy so he's rough. That comes with the territory. My girlfriend told me he was misbehaving and not listening to her at all and making a mess so she beat him with a belt.

I was extremely angry and upset. Whether you believe in that sort of discipline or not, I didn't give her permission to discipline my child. I sure as hell didn't give her permission to hit him. She didn't call me or anything, she took matters in her hands.

I yelled at her and told her that was unacceptable and she overstepped her boundaries by a fucking mile. She started crying and saying she was sorry but she didn't know what else to do and I told her to get out and not call me anymore.

She's obviously been trying to call me and she wants a second chance and she promises she won't do it again. I admit maybe I let the anger get the best of me but I feel like she went too far, unforgivably so.

Am I just being too overprotective or am I right in feeling she stepped too far?
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The issue isn't if you can forgive her, but can your son forgive her.
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Please don't underestimate the psychological impact it could have on your son. Notice how she's sorry because you got angry, not because she believes she did something wrong. She didn't tell you, your son did. She's not sorry to your son.

Please don't make him stay or spend time with someone who he is afraid of and who is willing to physically hurt him.
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Incredibly fair. It's probably even damaging to your child to have her around now. As harsh as that seems. A child has to be able to feel safe in their own home. How can they do that if they have violence like that. It will probably harm the trust of future women too. But the best thing I see is to convince your child that he comes first, always. It's possible to leave it up to your son if she should stay or not. But I don't know if that's such a good idea. Depends on how your son is. Personally I suspect my daughter would prefer to have me chose the choice she prefers for her. But I don't know your son. It could be he prefers to be active in 'solving' the situation.

It's a choice between your son and her the way I see it. You will often find that people in studies turn out ALOT worse after child abuse. I don't know specifically what the cause is, was the damage done right now? But I wouldn't risk my daughter like that either way. It would absolutely ruin trust to keep someone violent against her around. Sorry.
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>>16838998
She used a belt? Holy shit, what's wrong with that crazy bitch. As a guy who suffered by the hands of an abusive father: please don't let her near your son again. If she just didn't knew what to do she may have slapped him, but actually beating him with a belt requires at least a bit of planning.
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>>16838998
It could be a lot harsher than it sounds. You did put her on the spot however. If the kids not listening to her, doing what he wants she pretty much has no other option than to discipline him. She was the one doing you a favour, not the other way about here. But it does call into question long term with you two if you ever consider having kids.
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>>16838998
This is what happens when you dont discipline your own child.
You also ruined your relationship with her in regards to the childs eyes. If youve ever held an authority position you know that you can never contradict someone else in an authority position in front of your peers. Im not about to go into detail about the psychological damage you have just done to your child but you could have handled it a lot better.
Have fun with a child who rejects all forms of reprimand now.
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>>16838998

Yeah she definitely stepped too far, and like you said, the real problem is that she didn't even attempt to contact you or discuss it with you before just jumping to craziness. I wouldn't trust her alone around my kid.

In the future, though, if you leave someone to watch your kid, you really should give them a "briefing" on how the kid might misbehave, and how you usually discipline him. You can't really just expect people to read your mind and guess your parenting style, especially if she's never had kids of her own. It's possible that things were different in her household, and she really doesn't see "discipline" like she did as a big deal.

You kind of thrust her into an awkward situation, without warning, and expected that she'd automatically know how to handle it perfectly. Again, the fact that she beat him with a belt without even calling you is a red flag about this particular girl. But in the future, whether it's girlfriends or babysitters, don't just ASSUME that they know how your kid is used to being treated.

Especially when they just met a month ago, after TWO FULL YEARS keeping her "on trial" to decide if she was worthy to meet your son. You kind of forced the situation to be weird. Doesn't fully excuse what she did, but it wouldn't have happened if you thought this through a little better.
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You didn't overreact, in fact you didn't go far enough. I would have beaten HER with a belt to show her how she likes it, fuck that bitch.
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>>16839036
I agree with this.

When someone is watching my kids and one of my kids gets out of line it falls into the babysitter to discipline the child and do it right away. At that young age you must discipline a kid right when it happens much like you do for a dog. If you had come home and did it the child might not fully understand why you are doing what you would have done for discipline.

Using a belt for discipline is obviously abuse and is illegal and anyone that isn't retarded or plagued with autism knows this. So yea that was taking it too far. If she had spanked him then i would say that is fine.

Pic probably related.
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>>16838998
Holy fuck.
She physically abused your child!
She's lucky you didn't call the cops.
Move on.
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>>16839057
I don't think OP expected her to be a pro at looking after his kid. Her job is to make sure he doesn't get himself killed, not lay her hands on him. Anything he's done to the house or any misbehavior would have been handled by him when he got home. No matter how abrupt it was, there is no excuse for that poor behavior.
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>>16838998
Does your 6 year old son behave how he wants in school? Did you explain to your son beforehand that she was in charge, and that he should do whatever he asks? Because your child doing what the fuck he wants when you're not around, and you getting defensive if anyone reprimands his behaviour is BAD fucking parenting. YOU pushed her into that scenario, your kid behaved like a little shit from the sounds of it, and he comes crying to you, and what does he see? Does he see a parent question what he was doing, why she did that? No, he sees his father get angry and start yelling. Rather than ask your kid to think about WHY she hit him, what he was doing, you enabled your child to think he can get away with doing what he wants. Good job.
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The fact that she didn't know what to do and resorted to beating him with a belt is indicative of an unhealthy home life when she was young.

Her parents likely overused physical discipline and as a result, your girlfriend doesn't know how to handle children without a belt or spatula or whatever.

It's a tough call, but definitely talk to your son. If you want to stay with this girl, you need to establish some strict boundaries because she clearly wasn't disciplined in healthy ways.

Whatever you do, remember that your girlfriend has no idea how to handle kids healthily. Maybe take a discipline class or something with her?
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>>16839068

I said, like, three times that it doesn't excuse the beating. I just said it's not a good idea to leave someone to take care of your child the first time, without even telling them how to take care of your child. If you just leave it up to the guesswork of strangers, this is the kind of shit that happens.

I'm not trying to rub OP's nose in it or say that his ex is blameless. It's just advice for the future. A quick statement like "if he misbehaves/won't listen, he gets 15 minutes time-out, or no TV tonight, or whatever OP does to discipline his kid" would've probably prevented this. Her decision was insane, but it happened because she didn't know what she was supposed to do.
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>>16839068
Pretty much. I had no expectation that she would be a top tier babysitter for him. I just needed someone to keep an eye on him for a couple hours. That's it. It was an awkward situation certainly, but the only alternative was leave him alone and that's a whole different sort of abuse and neglect. It was my day off, I wasn't expecting to go to work and getting babysitters literally last minute is just impossible. I had to go and I needed someone to keep him safe.

Besides my son is usually well behaved, he's always done well with other babysitters and at school. I suspect he's just not fond of her and wanted to give her a hard time but that's not an excuse to belt him in my eyes.
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Report her to the police.
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>>16839091

Again, though, you kept them separate for two full years because you didn't think she was good enough to be around your son. This gave your son a very low opinion of her, and made her very insecure around him and desperate to prove herself. Some people really don't do well under pressure.

None of this excuses the belting. This whole situation is definitely a major red flag about her, and if I were in your shoes, I'd just break it off for good. But you really did not handle this thing well, you might not be AS MUCH to blame as she is, but you still had a lot of responsibility in this. Just make sure you learn from this, and don't create a situation like this again in the future.

It's just standard practice to tell people how to discipline your kid before you leave them alone together. Kids love to test babysitters, you need to give her SOMETHING she can do to keep control.
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No matter how abrupt the situation was, who the fuck hits a kid with a belt? I would have sooner let the kid destroy the house before hitting him. He's not my child, you don't touch children who are not yours. His dad would have dealt with him when he got home.
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>>16839080
>you pushed her into that scenario
So what justified the violence? Did she have to beat him off with a belt because the 6 YEAR OLD son was abusing her? There's simply no justification. Even yelling would be considered bad. Letting him be or physically forcing him in a place like that supernanny TV show would be better (though that's also severe abuse as stats show). How about she calls him and fucking asks him for permission at least. She presumes beating someone else's child with a belt is OK. Or at least she's unstable enough to do something like that without thinking.

I don't think people who haven't been in a perfectly peaceful situation can understand. Kids don't act poorly for no reason, but they aren't helped in the longterm if you use violence or cohesion. Most people consider children unreasonable but I've been around 4 kids at different ages at different points in life and what you need is a great deal of empathy and even more patience.

My siblings never act up aside from my autistic sibling (special case clearly). None of them were hit, the most punishment we got were our parent telling us they were disappointed if we (according to their judgement) consciously hid or lied about something. My daughter is being treated the same way. I talk to her about things when she's not behaving the right way and give her reasons why she should do things one way. I allow her to make mistakes that aren't dangerous (like pouring her milk by leaning the packet on the glass and tipping). She's incredibly happy and she doesn't do anything that I'd even dream warrants abuse.

I'd gladly spank someone like you who would say things like this. (though it is 4chan so I guess you could be trolling)
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OP is both a shitty parent unable to raise a child properly, and a bad judge of character.
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I don't see how OP is in the wrong in any way.

Yeah he pushed it on he but somehow that makes it okay that she ABUSED a little helpless boy? What the fuck?
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>>16839129
>bad judge of character
Because the girls that will abuse children are right out in the open with that.
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>>16839091
No its not okay to beat a kid with a belt, ever. She no doubt went to far. But she's never been a parent, and you didn't prepare her on discipline. She fucked up big yes, but she was put into a risky situation without enough "training". Picture you work at a factory with and you leave a new employee you've barley trained alone with the most important machine without telling her how to deal with it if it starts acting up. Yeah, that doesn't mean she was right to hit said machine with a hammer until it stopped shaking, but you also very much fucked up for not showing her how to deal with that correctly in advance.
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>>16838998
I would take everything your child tells you with a grain of salt, most kids these days are spoiled to bits and thought that nothing is ever their fault. Due to this they learn to talk shit and be disrespectful towards others in a very early age and he might not like the idea of you bringing new mother figures to his life.

He probably blew things way out of proportion as I find it hard to believe that anyone would actually go for the old school belt whip discipline in this day and age, especially not with other peoples children at least not to the fullest extend.

I'd say give your girlfriend a second chance, you've been dating for 2 years now so she deserves that. Just be clear that she should tell you next time your son misbehaves so you can talk to him and punish him accordingly.
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You did not overreact. I had abusive parents/step-parents growing up and this isn't something you want to expose your kid to, and the chances of that kid ever trusting this woman are really low. I'd say keep her far, far away from your son. Sorry to hear your relationship is so suddenly over, but it's for the best.
>>16839026
>It's probably even damaging to your child to have her around now. As harsh as that seems. A child has to be able to feel safe in their own home. How can they do that if they have violence like that. ... But the best thing I see is to convince your child that he comes first, always.
This.
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>>16839131

Nobody's saying it "makes it okay." Not all conflicts like this have one bad guy and one good guy. They both fucked up. OP fucked up, and then his girlfriend fucked up even worse. Neither of them handled this well, and the kid is the one taking all of the shit. It doesn't really help the kid at all to say "you did nothing wrong OP, feel free to try again with another stranger without learning anything from this"
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>>16839137
The thing is under normal circumstances, I would haven't have asked her to babysit for a long long time so I felt no need to "prepare her". It was an unavoidable situation, I was in a rush to leave. Besides she didn't need to do anything but make sure nothing bad happened to him and she failed spectacularly at that. That was literally her only job. I don't see how her unpreparedness matters at all if you agree that beating a child is inexcusable. I'm wasn't asking for a full daycare service, I was asking you to just make sure he was safe. I don't think that's unreasonable no matter how "unprepared" she was.
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>>16839137
You say its never okay to beat a kid yet at the same time you're white knighting her and saying she's unprepared.

She's a piece of shit, no amount of confusion with children should ever make you default to abuse.
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>>16839126
>So what justified the violence?
I call what she did discipline. Kid misbehaves, she asks him to stop. Kid ignores ADULT who's in charge of her, continues doing so. Kid gets disciplined. Now, for all we know it could be a light tap with a belt. If she went heavy, left big red marks etc, I'd be in agreement of excessive force being used. But a belt is no different than a smack, depending upon the force used. A belt has more authority to it, however.

She has no obligation to call. For all you know she wanted to, but didn't want to disturb him at work since it was important enough to get called into work and leave her with the child.

There's not enough information here. All that's plain is the kid misbehaved and he was disciplined for it. OP was the one that shoved her into that position, OP was the one that didn't give any clear instructions on the dos/don't of the child. The OP was probably also in the position to turn down work.

Simply put, this entire thing is the OPs fault. He shoves her into a scenario, leaves no instructions, then gets mad that the girl disciplines the child. This is entirely his making, and the girl in all honesty has done nothing wrong.

Wether you agree with using physical force or not, smacking is NOT illegal, over-excessive force is. So she has done NOTHING wrong, despite a lot of proclamations of "abuse" in this thread.
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>>16839063
> Using a belt for discipline is obviously abuse
What a bunch of special snowflakes.

Shit, my father beat me with a belt if we weren't waiting by the door when he got home from work with the paper and a martini. And you damn well BETTER be sure that it was dry enough.

Hyper? Sounds like your son isn't disciplined enough. Time to teach your offspring self control around his elders.
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One time when I was 15 years old my sister made me look after my niece for 6 hours while she did some shit. It was sudden and obviously I'm not a parent.

My niece was extremely misbehaved and a cunt for lack of a better term. She did a lot of terrible things but I tell one thing I didn't do: I didn't beat the shit out of her with a belt.

I was 15 and I understood that. A grown woman should be far ahead of curve.
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>>16839152
>>16839169

Oh for fuck's sake, people.

It really, really doesn't matter who's "right" and who's "wrong," because every time someone fucks up, OP's six-year-old son is the one taking the consequences.

It's ridiculous to say she did nothing wrong. She beat another person's child with a belt for acting like a child. That's insane. She shouldn't be left alone with kids.

However, it almost certainly would not have happened that way, if OP had taken just a few seconds to tell her HOW to discipline his child if he misbehaves. You don't just make assumptions with your child's safety. Ever.

Both adults fucked up. The poor kid is the one who took the consequences for it. OP, stop looking for fucking validation and worry about your kid.

All parents make mistakes. I'm not saying you're a shitty dad. I'm just saying you're GOING to be a shitty dad if you can't accept your mistakes and learn from them. You can blame it all on your girlfriend, and you're gonna be just as "shocked and appalled" when another babysitter smacks your kid because you didn't bother talking to them
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Whether discipline is necessary or not, that's not the job of a babysitter. Disciplining is a parental action, it is not your call to make.
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>>16839152
She is a shitty person, and shouldny be around your kid. Ever. Yep, she did a really bad job.

You also fucked up. You let someone stay around your kid when they had no training or prior knowledge. Even if she wasn't a dumb bitch, she still could have fucked up in many ways. And that's because you fucked up. Her fucking up and being shit doesn't excuse your own part in this situation. You fucked up, and because of that you're in part to blame for the fact you kid got beat with a belt. Learn from this.
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>>16838998
Not gonna lie. Unless you guys are really close, and have given her permission to do so, she shouldnt be touching your son.
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>>16839175
>I didn't beat the shit out of her with a belt.
Good job on the propaganda there!

ITT: People who confuse ABUSE/VIOLENCE with smacking, who don't understand the law, who try to make the OP gf into some demonizing child abusing and probably a molestor, for hitting a child that was misbehaving.

Have I just stepped into tumblr? Next you'll be telling me we need to ban the word bossy because it's abusive.
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>>16839152
>I don't think that's unreasonable no matter how "unprepared" she was.
It isn't. It's just these pussies have a hard time putting all the blame on a woman.

Who the fuck assumes their girlfriend is going to beat the fuck out their child?
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Six is pretty young for a belt-beating. There might be some advocates of 'tough discipline' or whatever, but she still should have called you and ask how to deal with the kid when he misbehaves.

That being said, I think she's a trashy person from a shitty home, and stupid too - usually adult people can deal with kids' hissy fits without belting them. Drop her like a sack of dung unless you want your child walking around black and blue in the near future.

(I think she even might have done it on purpose, not as much as to discipline him but rather to use him as an outlet for her anger/jealousy. The kid is, after all, a living reminder that you were very close with another woman. Because of him she's knocked few steps down as he's the most important person in your life rn and she's somewhere lower in the hierarchy)
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>>16839199
Hitting a child is abuse no matter how you try to spin it. There's a reason it's illegal.
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I dunno about you guys but I would be okay with letting my girlfriend of even 1 year babysit my child for 3 hours. If she couldn't even last that long then without resorting to abuse, then there's something wrong with her. It doesn't matter how much experience she lacked with children or OP's child, normal people don't do that.
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>>16839200

Nobody assumes she is. A good parent would never assume she wouldn't. You don't make assumptions with your kid's safety. You explain shit that feels like it shouldn't be necessary, because sometimes it is.

It's not like everyone is on the same wavelength out there. Even in this thread, you can see stark differences in opinion on "proper" ways to discipline a child. And it's not always the people you expect. And that's why you DON'T FUCKING ASSUME.

This really is not about defending the girlfriend. She's crazy and she did a crazy thing. This is about OP's kid, and making sure the same thing doesn't happen again. Playing the "blame game" is fucking worthless at this point because it doesn't help the actual victim of this situation in any way
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>>16839211
It's not illegal, dipshit. This is why you and a lot of ignorant ass people in this thread keep throwing out the word abuse. Why do you think I said people who don't understand the law?
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>>16839219
>It doesn't matter how much experience she lacked with children or OP's child, normal people don't do that.
That's the crux of the matter. This isn't something normal people do even if they're dumb as bricks with children.
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>>16839220
>A good parent would never assume she wouldn't.
No a good parent wouldn't be with someone they assume would abuse their child.
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>>16839129
This to be honest. Was the belt even that bad or was it just a spanking. Spanking isn't a big deal if so. If she actually beat him than okay but I have a feeling op didn't bother to find out and his son is a little shit who prob deserved a spanking.
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>>16839222
As a mandated reporter, at least in my state, we get trained on what is abuse and what isn't. Hitting with a belt is illegal.

Also, even open-handed spanking is illegal in most states. They aren't going to throw the person in jail for a spank, but they will investigate and likely give the person a warning, parenting classes, etc.
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>>16839235
Citation needed, because a quick google is showing that physically disciplining a child is legal in all 50 states. I'm from UK, btw. So I'm just going to go ahead and call bullshit on your statement that it's illegal.
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Whether or not the boy deserves a spanking is irrelevant. SHE IS NOT HIS MOTHER, ITS NOT HER RIGHT TO BEAT HIS KID.
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>>16838998
She let her stress and frustration overcome her and took it out on your son. Think about this, motherfucker: the FIRST time she's left alone with him she beats him. You honesty don't think this would happen again? Really? Why? Because she promised you? Beating a child the first time you're left alone with them as an emotional response to a stressful situation obviously makes her unsuitable to be around your child, or ANY children, for that matter. She didn't even ask, which shows it was an emotional response, not something she carefully considered. She beat him angrily, felt satisfied and was only apologetic once the consequences for her became apparent. If you let this woman back into your life you're doing a disservice to your son by forcing him to be around someone who's proven to be violent and emotionally unstable. 'Nuff said.
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>>16838998
Your response is understandable, but if you didn't establish ground rules for your child with her the fault is on you too.

You both come from different upbringings and that might be normal in her family. If you've told her she can't do that and she does it anyways then you have a problem.
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>>16839063
>Using a belt for discipline is obviously abuse and is illegal
It's not necessarily abuse and it's certainly not illegal. It might be wrong, but it won't get you into any kind of legal trouble.
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>>16839246
>SHE IS NOT HIS MOTHER, ITS NOT HER RIGHT TO BEAT HIS KID.
^
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I wouldn't let her back into my life.
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>>16839227
And good parents don't assume the person they are leaving a child with is a "good person" just because they have been dicking them. That's how situations like this happen. And that's why he, OP, needs to understand in the future don't assume people know anything when it comes to your kid.
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Would like to just weigh in an opinion on child abuse (not your situation dad).

Google "Child abuse *" where * is a negative effect of some sort. Use your selection bias consciously.
Do the same for positive things. Use your selection bias consciously.

Realize just how bad child abuse is because it's hard even if you have a bias. At best you find anecdotal evidence of successful people who were abused as children. But you also find that almost every serial killer of note has been abused as children. Usually in multiple ways but still.
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>>16839173
Did you turn out well? Perfectly happy in life? Compared to your peers at least. Do you love your father like people in movies (because I love mine that way if not more).
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>>16839255
OP gave her 2 years of time before he even let her near him, if you can't trust your girlfriend after 2 years then just leave her. OP had to gamble on her and it didn't work out.

That's just how life works, I don't he's at fault. Sometimes shit just doesn't go your way.
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>>16839246
"It is not her Right to beat a kid".

If she is left in charge by the parent, and the parent doesn't discuss what to do should he misbehave, she's going to do what any person does if the kid is misbehaving - discipline the child. Just because you disagree with the method used, does not mean she somehow did something wrong. That goes for a lot of people in this thread throwing out the word "abuse".
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Yeah I'm sure the boy will have mental scars from that one time he acted like a total shithead and got spanked because of it.

Idiots.
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>>16839267
>she's going to do what any person does if the kid is misbehaving
Time out?
Take away his toys?
Bribe him with candy?
Call parent?

Beating isn't on that list. She should have just let him misbehave.
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>ITT: Let's make this about boys vs. girls and completely ignore the well-being of a six-year-old, except to use him as a pawn to make a point
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>>16839267
Most of the people posting are probably angry kids.

I have a vague memory or two of getting spanked as a child, but I also recall I was acting like an obnoxious little twat. Kind of surprised my parents didn't drown me in a pool.
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Whether you beat your own children is one thing but beating other people's children is another. It is not your job to 'discipline' other people's children. Babysitters have been put in jail for less, you just don't cross that line.
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>>16839274
>Just because you disagree with the method used does not mean she somehow did something wrong

Let me reiterate that for you

>Just because you disagree with the method used does not mean she somehow did something wrong

Now, let that sink in. I think we've established that physically disciplining a child is something you disagree with. But it is something that other people do agree with. It is not illegal to do so.

Let me reiterate one more time for you

>Just because you disagree with the method used does not mean she somehow did something wrong
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>>16839222
Hitting a child with a belt regardless of why is illegal.

If you were to do the same to an adult that would be considered assult.
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>>16839283
Hitting someone with a belt is assault. What makes you fuckers that exempts children? There is no 18+ rule on assault.
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>>16839245
273a. (a) Any person who, under circumstances or conditions likely
to produce great bodily harm or death, willfully causes or permits
any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon unjustifiable physical pain
or mental suffering, or having the care or custody of any child,
willfully causes or permits the person or health of that child to be
injured, or willfully causes or permits that child to be placed in a
situation where his or her person or health is endangered, shall be
punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or
in the state prison for two, four, or six years.
(b) Any person who, under circumstances or conditions other than
those likely to produce great bodily harm or death, willfully causes
or permits any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon unjustifiable
physical pain or mental suffering, or having the care or custody of
any child, willfully causes or permits the person or health of that
child to be injured, or willfully causes or permits that child to be
placed in a situation where his or her person or health may be
endangered, is guilty of a misdemeanor

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=270-273.75

It is not up to a reporter to determine if physical harm on a child is illegal. What CPS does is investigate the situation by interviewing anyone involved, and they determine if the child was unjustifiably injured by the parent.

If a child was "misbehaving" and got hit with a belt. What was the misbehaving? What was the first action taken? Did the punishment outweigh the crime? What was the child's mental reaction to the hitting? Overall, what was is the child's home and life like? Many of these things are what CPS investigates. They determine if the hitting was illegal. Every situation is complex and different.
>>
>>16839286
>Hitting a child with a belt regardless of why is illegal.

CITATION NEEDED. seriously. I'm not interested in what you think ethically or morally should be illegal, I'm interested in what's actually illegal.
>>
>>16839274

>Beating isn't on that list

For anyone? That's just an assumption you can make, and feel safe about it? Because there are a whole lot of people right here in this thread that seem to disagree with you. You think you could identify them on sight, without a conversation? If I made a police line-up of all the posters in this thread, you feel like you could pick out the child-beaters?

ANY FUCKING TIME I leave my kids with a babysitter, even a family member or close friend, I give them a short "briefing." This includes a statement like "if they won't listen, they don't get to watch any TV or play video games tonight." I don't just fucking leave it up to chance. I don't say "she seems cool, I'll just let her decide what to do if my kid are bad. She'll know."

This is not about saying the girlfriend was right. She wasn't. She never should've hit the kid. But OP never should've left him alone with a new person without explaining a few things. If she'd been told how to handle misbehaving, I really don't think she would've beat him. It was a panic response. A stupid one, yes, but it was preventable.
>>
>>16839292
Thank you. So, as that reads to me,to clarify, as I said to begin with, excessive force would be illegal, physically disciplining a child is not.
>>
>>16839299
>It was a panic response
Stop apologizing for abuse.
>>
>>16839292
>great bodily harm
>death
>belt causing death or extreme suffering
your parents could have beat the stupid out of you, anon. but it's too late now. you're an autistic armchair warrior.
>>
>>16839304

I'm not apologizing for abuse. I made that pretty fucking clear. The belt-beating was unacceptable. I'm trying to help OP prevent future abuse. This really isn't about pointing fingers, it's about the fucking child who got beaten.
>>
>>16839169
I don't know what his motivations were to leave his son with her. It's true. But it's fairly irrelevant. It has surely hurt his relationship with his son but we can't deal with that like this. It's for them to clear up. What's perfectly clear however is that she both overstepped boundaries and in my opinion she also stepped over the boundary for how an adult can act. What is she? 18? Maybe then I could understand her for being a moron but abusing someone elses child is just many measures beyond where I put the limit. The girl does do wrong because while she has the justifications you claim they're really not solid enough to justify going this direction when there's so many other viable options to deal with a child.

Frankly I'd just leave her because she's clearly an unfit partner for a guy with a child. Ignoring all the other consequences.
>Kid ignores ADULT who's in charge of her
I find that emphasis on adult very disturbing. Because she certainly didn't act like an adult. She hit someone defenseless because she got annoyed. There's absolutely no way she couldn't have solved it a better way. If she's an adult. I'd put more trust in someone of equal age to his son than this little girl knowing what she's done.
>>
The most important thing that has been asked yet is what exactly did she do?

Did she spank him with the belt a few times? While not justified and overstepping her bounds, this is at least understandable. If this is the case, then I see no reason why you shouldn't proceed with the relationship, albeit very carefully with respect to her exposure to your son. You'd need to really ease her presence back into his life, under very controlled circumstances, and communicate the situation as best you can with your son.

Now if she actually savagely beat him with a belt, especially on the back, torso, arms, or face as everyone in this thread seems to assume she did, then there's a problem. That's no longer justifiable discipline, but actually getting into the legal definition of abuse. In this case, you did a really shitty job of judging her as a person and you should cut off all contact.
>>
>>16839303
>excessive force would be illegal, physically disciplining a child is not.
That is not up for you to decide. That is up to CPS to determine. There is gray between discipline and excessive force. CPS has a method of objectively finding this out. Me, as a reporter, if anything even looks like abuse (fuck all about how it got there or why), I have to report it because it is not up to me to determine if it is illegal. It is also not up to you to decide.
>>
>>16839306
It also says "unjustifiable harm." It is up to CPS to determine what is unjustifiable harm

ex. being beat with a belt for spilling milk and a child is 2-6 years old? Is that justified? Versus let's say a child who punched his sibling in the eye and got a slap with a belt? Slightly more justified? That is what CPS determines.
>>
>>16839169
I like all those leaps in logic you take to try and apologize for her abuse.

Again, this would have all been okay if she asked OP if she could discipline the kid. But she didn't, she just abused him of her own volition.

OP was forced into that situation too and as he said the alternative was leave a 6 year old child alone which is FAR worse.

It's nobody's fault how they got in that situation but it is her fault not reporting to OP which is basic common sense.
>>
>>16839306
>didn't even read to (b)
"Any person who, under circumstances or conditions other than
those likely to produce great bodily harm or death, willfully causes
or permits any child to suffer,"
That's enough, suffer. You think he enjoys being spanked? He's just a little cute sub to her?
Were you abused as a child? They often have developmental problems, like lesser IQ, problems reading and writing and comprehending written text in plain English.
>>
I've babysitted several kids and I never needed to be briefed like it was a military plan.

Babysitters aren't there to be surrogate parents, our job is to make sure that kid doesn't do anything stupid. If they're annoying you then ignore it. It's not your job to discipline.
>>
>>16839317
> CPS has a method of objectively finding this out.

And I can gaurantee that using a belt isn't going to land someone in jailtime. The only exceptions are going to be is when the force is that excessive that it leaves scars/marks, or used too excessively for anything.

However, in OP context, with no instructions from OP, I would honestly stake my life that her physically disciplining a child with a belt who was misbehaving isn't going to land her Jailtime or be classified as "abuse" like a lot of people here are claiming.
>>
>>16838998
You were right to get rid of her, but that said you could do with displining your son a little more harshly. The reason he acts like an annoying prick isn't "kids will be kids" it's because you let him.
>>
>>16839325
If your definition of suffering is that fucking broad then I guess children should never be punished or disciplined for anything.
The kid hit his sibling? No time out, that will cause him to suffer and is clearly abuse.
He tried to steal candy? Better not make him pay for it with his allowance, that's some pretty hardcore suffering right there.
>>
>>16839331
Kids are annoying even when you abuse them. They're just annoying but now with a mix of mental scarring and possible serial killing.
>>
>>16839336
You could just, you know, leave the disciplining to their parents.
>>
>>16839317
>CPS has a method of objectively finding this out
No, they have a method of subjectively judging something that have no connection with based of a metric they pulled out of their ass.
>>
>>16839338
Nope, that causes suffering. Didn't you see the definition of abuse?
>>
>>16839341
Alright it's clear when there is going to go, you're going try and be a petty shit now because you don't like the law.

It's clear to people with common sense who weren't physically assaulted that she was in the wrong and at worst she needs to be in jail.
>>
>>16839336
>suffering:
>pain that is caused by injury, illness, loss, etc. :
>physical, mental, or emotional pain
>sufferings : feelings of pain
Try and find me a definition of suffering which does exclude some harm and doesn't exclude all harm. This is legal text not stuff based on how you talk to your friends. If we had that system then faggot wouldn't be a discriminatory word. Faggot.

Worse yet I wasn't even pointing out that the word would suffice. There's so much in that text that can be interpreted towards that end.
>>
>>16839323
>I like all those leaps in logic you take to try and apologize for her abuse.

It's good that you recognize that I am being logical about this. Like I said before, the girl may not have wanted to disturb OP, so she took the next best option and that was to discpline the child. The OP wasn't forced, the OP could have responded that he has his kid that day and couldn't attend work. He chose to go to work and left no clear instructions. Why? Because he didn't think. He left the responsibility to someone else, then bitched about it as soon as he got back.
>>
>>16839344
>>16839347
You guys are making me suffer. Better call the cops, as this is obviously emotional abuse and cyber bullying.
>>
On no planet is it ever okay to hit another person's child unless expressed permission is given. What the fuck is wrong with you people?
>>
>>16839337
Just because you were a brat doesn't mean everyone was.
>>
>>16839351
Yeah sure. Do that. See what they care about your definition of words.
>>
>>16839348
>the girl may not have wanted to disturb OP
Then she's a moron. You always ask a parent about things involving their children.

>The OP wasn't forced
You've never had a job before.
>>
>>16839353
It absolutely is under many circumstances.

This is not one of them, but your statement is not even remotely true.
>>
>>16839360
I'm using the dictionary definition. And that post? Yeah, this is now class 2 suffering.
Getting ready for some serious abuse charges, you sickening monster.
>>
>>16838998
I understand the not want her to hit him but not disiplin doesn't make sense. If your relationship is going to work in the long term she's going to need to be given authority over him at some point.
>>
>>16839353
>On no planet
Not even on Mars?
>>
>>16839348
Yeah I'm sure OP willingly went to work on his day off without resistance.
>>
Not op but

My dad used to beat me with a belt when I was about 7 for not eating vegetables, is that wrong?
>>
>>16839366
OK. So you're a child. Hope mods are alert.

Because clearly your understanding can't be that poor that you think this pertains to people that aren't children. And the specific conditions mentioned.

But English is my second language. I dunno what the definition of a child is in the US. I'd think it's very cool if it's mental maturity you guys judge.
>>
>>16839380
>But English is my second language
This honestly explains so much.
>>
>>16839361
>Then she's a moron. You always ask a parent about things involving their children.
It's not her responsibility. It's his. It's his kid. If he wants things done a certain way, he should specify beforehand. If he gives no instructions, people are just going to do what they assume is the correct thing. Which, in her case, was discplining a child who was misbehaving with a belt. She's not a fucking mind reader. Just because you disagree with physically discplining a child does not mean she did anything wrong. The OP did not specify that she could not do that. He dumped his shit on her, and she did what she thought was best. Your own biased opinion against physical discipline is whats making you give horrible advice her. Mines is on point in what he asked for. Had he left instructions that if he misbehaves not to hit him but to turn tv off, I'm pretty sure this scenario wouldn't have occured. And if it did, I would be in full agreement with you. But he didn't.
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>>16839378
According to the general consensus of the thread, yeah.

But in the time and place and specific household in which you grew up, it was probably considered acceptable. Whether or not that consideration makes it okay would be a matter I'm sure a lot of people would disagree on.
>>
>>16839344
>Alright it's clear when there is going to go, you're going try and be a petty shit now because you don't like the law.
It's funny how they always resort to this kiddy shit when they've been outargued.
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>>16839394
There's so much fucking suffering happening here.
The abuse is unreal.
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>>16839390
Oh so suddenly it's not her responsibility where it would actually make her look bad but it is her responsibility to discipline other people's children.

>She's not a mind reader
That's why phones exist.

Your entire argument is retarded. She could have simply said no if she didn't want to look after a child and left. Plain and fucking simple. She agreed so it is her fucking responsibility and she was in the wrong. She physically assaulted a 6 year old boy.

You're a retard, go kill yourself.
>>
>>16839391
He's also into kiddie porn so it might aswel be wrong.


;_; I want to disappear
>>
>>16838998

whether you could or should or would forgive her, dont.

nothing hurts more than having someone who is not your authority figure control your life, and then have your parents stand by and not do anything.

i remember one time my mom had a friend over who cooked us dinner. generally during dinner we sit at the table, but my mom would sit on the couch. from the table we can see the TV, and this was just normal. this was our life.

my mom was flipping through the channels and we saw the simpsons (our family show at the time)
and i got excited and said
>can we watch the simpsons!?
to which the new lady, who i had not done anything to offend at that point turned around and YELLED:
>NO, YOU'RE GOING TO SIT DOWN AND EAT YOUR DINNER

i was shocked. i mean wtf. my moms right fucking there, i was asking her. my mom simply looked down and wasnt sure what to do (as an adult i imagine she just felt awkward and dealt with it privately later). as a kid it felt like my mother was letting someone yell at me.

that thing sat with me my entire life and shocked me so much that im bringing it up now.

now imagine your kid... who actually got beaten with a goddamn belt.... and you taking that woman and forcing her into his life.

nope.
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>>16839026
>this entire thread was unnecessary
>third post gave the entire answer needed
>it's dads choice anyhow and keeping an abuser around is bad
Why the fuck are you arguing?
>>
>>16839406

guess now you know why he liked spankin you
>>
>>16839404
>Oh so suddenly it's not her responsibility where it would actually make her look bad but it is her responsibility to discipline other people's children.
Nice strawman, you fucking idiot.

>That's why phones exist.
You're really dense, aren't you? If she's under the impression that she's doing nothing WRONG, there's no fucking need to pick up the phone, is there, you dense retard? Or do you think she intentionally did it, knowing that it would cause a massive fight like this? Oh for fuck sake, just shut up and stop responding. You're embarrassing yourself.
>>
>>16839406
So, are you saying your father made child porn, or just happens to like child porn and also happened to beat you?

Either way if you want to talk about it you should probably just go make your own thread because you're getting offtopic from OP's situation.
>>
>>16839425
I found some one his computer when I was young.
It's not that it upsets me or anything but having a weird childhood like that isn't good for kids.
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>>16839421
If anyone is creating a strawman it's you. Those are your your words, not mine.

>If she's under the impression that she's doing nothing WRONG
Then she's seriously mentally ill and still in the wrong.

>do you think she intentionally did it
There's no way to not intentionally abuse someone. Again she is mentally ill if she thought there would be no pushback and still in the wrong.

You're a retard, kill yourself.
>>
>>16839404
>She physically assaulted a 6 year old boy.
Physically disciplining a child isn't against the law. CITATION NEEDED OTHERWISE. If you can't provide one, Fuck off.
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>>16839421

>hes embarassing himself

what? the lady fucking belted a 6 year old boy she was asked to just look after for a few hours. it doesnt matter if she thought she was right or wrong, SHE DID WRONG.
>>
Anyone saying the girlfriend was in anyway right needs to get raped as a form of discipline. It's not that different.
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>>16839421
>If she's under the impression that she's doing nothing WRONG
Then she has to realize just what the fuck she's doing. She has probably heard that child abuse is a political issue since it's been around as a political issue for far more than her lifetime.
What if his son was gay and she found out. Should she have sent him to christian camp?
What if he had phimosis, circumcise him with scissors right then and there?

Just what kind of low ass fucking standard do you put on judgement?

She's not considering shit at all if she just assumes things like abusing someone elses child is correct. Sometimes I don't even get what kind of slums you fucking anons come from. That's a very tall assumption any way you twist and turn it.
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>>16839434
>there's already been a discussion surrounding this already
>doesn't even look it up
>doesn't even have a hint of knowledge about the law
You beltposters are the worst.
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>>16839433
>Then she's seriously mentally ill and still in the wrong.
Nope. CITATION NEEDED, again. Because, TA-DAH, PHYSICALLY DISCPLINING A CHILD IS NOT ILLEGAL. IT IS LEGAL.

CITATION NEEDED for the bullshit your muttering that links any person who uses physical discpline as mentally ill. I want a citation stating that physical discipline is illegal. If you can't provide either, well, you're speaking bullshit, as we both know.

Unlike you, the law backs me up here. Because guess what. Physically disciplining a child is legal.
>>
>>16839445
>Doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about
>Thinking arrogantly greentexting posting makes them right.

There is no citation that states that.

Here's one for you:

http://time.com/3379862/child-abuse/

What does it say? Oh, that's right. Hitting a child is legal in all 50 states. Now piss off, greentext

>:)
>>
>>16839432
Okay, so were you trying to provide OP with advice using your own anecdote? Not to invalidate you, but I'm betting OP's girlfriend probably isn't into child porn herself. There are people that physically discipline children but aren't also pedophiles.
>>
>>16839452
>doesn't reference caseswhen he has inquiries about the law
>he doesn't even reference lawbooks
>he references TIMES MAGAZINE
Clearly the best official source for this kind of stuff.
Bet you're just mocking me I swear. You're a good parody man.
>>
>>16839446
Someone older than 12 couldn't have written this post.
>>
I think you reacted more calmly than I would have. If someone hit my kid, I would absolutely channel the deepest, darkest crazy in me and fucking unload it like a month's worth of shit in a bucket all over the person's head. I'd be worried that if you let her back in, the child won't trust her, and more importantly won't trust you to protect him.

Also, longterm, you seem to have different ideas on what discipline methods are acceptable. She was probably raised in an environment with violent punishment, and likely sees nothing wrong with it.

But when I babysit, I assume it is my responsibility to discipline the child, which I usually do with a time out. In the future, discuss that with potential sitters, even if it's a brief, "send him to his room for ten minutes if he's bad." It's usually assumed when someone watches a child that they take responsibility for discipline during that time.
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>>16839446
>CITATION NEEDED for the bullshit your muttering that links any person who uses physical discpline as mentally ill
And you accuse others of strawman? Nowhere was this argument stated.
>>
>>16839456
>CITATION NEEDED
Keep trying, anon. I'm waiting for that citation that states physically disciplining a child is illegal. Burden of proof is on you, not on me. Keep it up, anon. It's not me that has to prove anything.
>>
Hitting someone with a belt is basic assault, discipline or not.

Look up any assault law in the US and it's pretty clear cut.
>>
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>>16839457
Right at the bottom. When you can't debate using facts, go right to the bottom!
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>>16839446
Lawyers are professionals at mind rape. It's not not their job. Lawyers are so close to dictators it's never even funny. Using the law to frame a topic outside the bounds of law (like you say) then the discussion may or may not continue but we may bear in mind it wasn't illegal, but still morally and shame on people who beat their kids. People have already posted lots of reasons why, and thenpartni free with is that this generates mistrust in the world surrounding the child. What was a place of safety and happiness becomes a place of fear, isolation and misery. It ruins the little person (you are essentially breaking somebody. Congratulations) and sets them for total distrust in society and the world around them, making them ultimate prey for a society that feasts on the hurt and wounded.

Remove this tempestuous whore from your child's sight forever so that he knows what to do with enemies, and she became both his and OP's enemy the instant this insane whore took a belt and whooped a child that was not wen her own. What a fuckig diagrace to humanity. Put the bitch whore in a dumpster.
>>
>>16839474
Except it's not. Don't spread false information as if it's fact, please.
>>
I got a 13 years old kid,and we were on vacations with a mad bitch,she gets mad because i took her to walk 2 kilometers (4) with me because she was bitching all day and bothering my family on FUCKING VACATIONS,so after that we come at 1:am (zone was safe overall,no problem) but she is mad,she was starting to hit me,i took her outside and gave her a bucket of cold water,after that i go to bed with my kid,and i hear she say... Your kid is going to leave when he grows up. That got past the line.
Tomorrow everything is normal,we come to the city,after 1 day i say,You,stupid retarded my kid is going to leave me because he will need to trip to another city to study what he wants;She looks at me with a bitching look and i scream in her face GET OUT OF MY FACE MAD SLUT

After all,dont let NOBODY say anything to your kids
But,give your gf a second choice,maybe she had a brother that was hyper and got beaten with a belt and stopped,and she never felt the pain of a belt on the back.
>>16838998
>>
>>16839483
Except it is. Go out on the street and hit someone with a belt, you've just assaulted them. Have fun in jail.
>>
>>16839262
>"yeah, I turned out great! That's why I make hateful posts on 4chan towards people who weren't beaten as I was!"
>>
>>16839490
What a point it is.
>>
>>16839482
I've also heard that drinking alcohol will result in turning into an alcoholic, before you know it you're gambling away your mortgage with your wife and kids leaving you, to then resort to fucking prostitutes, then it only escalates further into being homeless until you decide to blow your brains out.

What point am I making here? Context and moderation, damnit. Smacking a child doesn't do any of the things you listed, at all. This is you doing your best to propaganda it up. Abusing a child with physical violence is not the same as disciplining a kid misbehaving. Stop trying to say they are. Because the above example shows just how stupid that is: Taking one sip of alcohol or drinking occasionally won't turn you into any of those things. Abusing it does, however.
>>
>>16839503
Is your boss allowed to punch you if you Fuck up at work, even if he only does it once?
>"no, that's assault"

WELL HOW ABOUT THAT
>>
>>16839490
Except we're not talking about assaulting strangers on a street here. We're talking about disciplining a child misbehaving. And it's not illegal, despite you trying to strawman it to be that way. It is not against the law. Google it. I'm tired of repeating the same shit to people who are too lazy to google. If you can find any citations which state that it is ILLEGAL in the us, I will agree with you. Until then, you are wrong. Have fun being wrong.
>>
>>16839520
Assault is assault whether you know a person or not. You attacked them and harmed them, it's assault. It's cut and dry.
>>
>>16839520
I'd love to see that point in assault law that specifically excludes children.

Protip: You won't find it.
>>
>>16839516
Are you still going with this example? A boss isn't a child, whereas a child is, and a parent has parental rights, and guess what, smacking that child is a parental right.
>>
>>16839529
Protip: Google Parental rights. I'd love to see you say that a parent doesn't have that right "in a court of law". You're fighting a losing battle.
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>>16839530
>smacking that child is a parental right.
Smacking, debatable. Assaulting with a belt? Not so much.
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>>16839530
She isn't the legal guardian or parent of the kid you idiot.
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>>16839520
>Except we're not talking about assaulting strangers on a street here
What relation does OP's son have with this woman? I rest my fucking case.
>>
>>16839503
Not him, but let's be real, here: people can't be trusted to hit their children "responsibly". Remember the case recently where the guy left huge bloody welts all over his 4-year-old? He didn't think he was doing anything wrong. When my grandfather beat my mother, he thought he was doing the right thing, but she's fucking traumatized. Some people discipline their children with a closed fist, there was even a case in the news a while back where parents disciplined a toddler by biting him. I think they eventually killed him through abuse.

There have been studies that indicate those who were physically disciplined as children are more prone to mental illness and violence in the future, but if I remember correctly the studies were flawed in that they had no way of measuring how hard or frequently the child was hit.

I think it's a really complex subject. The right answer is that in moderation, a light smack is okay. But the safe answer is that you shouldn't physically discipline your kids, because what constitutes "moderation" and "reasonable" or "light" is far too subjective. Especially when you realize how much people differ in terms of pain tolerance and threshold. I can take a severe beating before it even registers as painful. Other people whimper at the first touch of a flogger or paddle.
>>
>>16839538
>Google Parental rights
What does parental rights have to do with OP's girlfriend assaulting his son?
>>
>>16839540
Assault is assault in your context, smacking with a belt would still be considered a parental right. Seriously. Stop shifting the goalpost. It went from smacking is illegal, to it's assault, now that I've proven that wrong it's moved to well ok smackings fine (not debatable btw, it's actually legal, you fucking moron, you can't debate something if its legal). The correct terminology is corporal punishment, and IS legal. Google. Seriously. It's your friend.

>>16839541
nannys are allowed as well.

WILL YOU TWO ADMIT YOU'RE FUCKING WRONG instead of constantly moving the goalposts. You're wrong. Admit it, it's not the end of the world!
>>
>>16839561
>nannys are allowed as well.
She isn't a nanny.
>>
>>16839561
There is no law that says nanny's can abuse your children. Even if there was, she's not a nanny.
>>
>>16839566
She was left in charge of the kid. Given permission, by the parent. The parent did not specify that corporal punishment was not allowed. This is his mistake.
>>
>>16839570
That's great! Because corporal punishment isn't abuse. So you don't have a point here.
>>
>>16839572
>She was left in charge of the kid. Given permission, by the parent.
That would make her a babysitter and a very loose one, not a nanny.

I challenge you to find me a law that says babysitters can hit your children without permission from the parent. You won't find it.
>>
NOTHING TO SEE HERE. JUST DISCIPLINE DON'T WORRY.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U_yex4InDw
>>
>>16839580
https://youtu.be/v8Ni4gXnnK0?t=60
NO PROBLEM I HAVE SOME DISCIPLINE VIDEO TOO.
>>
>>16839580
NICE STRAWMAN BRO. IT'S NOT LIKE PARENTS CANT ABUSE THEIR CHILDREN BY LOCKING THEM IN A DARK ROOM FOR 9 HOURS A DAY OR NOTHING WITHOUT PHYSICALLY HITTING THEM. BY YOUR DEFINITION OF PUNISHMENTS, NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT IS THERE? SEE I CAN DO STRAWMANS TOO.

>>16839576
I'll concede that point. However, the rest still lays on the father for not being very clear about this. Honestly? If this was taken to court, you would have a very hard time finding someone to convict her of it.
>>
My cousin got a son and when he starts screaming i Just want to beat the shit out of him.
Dat litle shit always starts screaming when somebody is on the Phone.

I bet OP's son is a fucking little evil pepe that screams
REEEEEE
>>
>>16839592
>If this was taken to court, you would have a very hard time finding someone to convict her of it.
Maybe so but that doesn't mean she wasn't wrong.
>>
>>16839592
>the rest still lays on the father for not being very clear about this.
"Don't abuse my children please."
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>>16839592
Except if she has no legal basis to stand on then yeah, it was assault. She attacked another person.
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>>16839561
Yeah, so google it before you call the cops. People like you, disgusting whores.
>>
>>16839607
kek
>>
>>16839602
Hence why I said ages ago that she was under the assumption she wasn't wrong. If you see nothing wrong with physically discplining the child, and a child is misbehaving, what are you going to do? I'm not asking you personally what you do, I'm asking you to take into think of the mindset of someone anything wrong with physically discplining a child. The father left no instructions. It is his child and at the end of the day it is his responsibility to make sure whoever is caring for that child knows the ins&outs of what he finds acceptable. What was the original point of this thread? It was whether he was right or not. And he wasn't. If he had specified what to do with the kid, this situation wouldn't have occurred at all, this thread wouldn't exist, they would be talking just now. So the core fault is OP.
>>
>>16839607
This guy. Look, we know you want to be special. I know you have a hard time grasping the concept that physical disciplining a child does not equate to abuse. But just....try, for me, okay? Honestly you think you're trolling me here. But you're just making yourself look like a fucking idiot that can't establish the difference between what abuse is and what disciplining is. It's no sweat off my back. So please, do continue yelling abuse. You're the one looking like an idiot.
>>
>>16839628
>she was under the assumption she wasn't wrong
Except that argument falls apart because nobody thinks strictly in "Is this legal?" terms. People have morality and it wasn't even her child. No law backs her up on this and we've clearly established that but assault is assault. She assaulted this child, discipline doesn't fall under hall.

If she honestly thought attacking another person's child was okay then she has serious mental issues. Nobody except people with serious problems would default to that.
>>
>>16839628
>I'm asking you to take into think of the mindset of someone anything wrong with physically discplining a child

You can apply that to anything that isn't blatantly illegal. With that logic cheating on someone isn't wrong if you don't feel bad about it.
>>
>>16839628
>I'm asking you to take into think of the mindset of someone anything wrong with physically discplining a child
It doesn't matter what she thought, she's still a piece of shit.
>>
>>16839613
Except she does. It would be a grey zone, a misunderstanding. Not assault.
>>
"What I really want is a nice place for me to hit my kids." That's what you're saying if any of you post in favor of, you know, hittin yer kin.
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>>16839655
>Except she does
Except she doesn't. No law allows her to do this and assault exists.

Assault law does not exempt children. Do I think she would be convicted in court? No because women are given special treatment in court even in cases of clear abuse. Women get off easy on crimes all the time.

She still committed a crime though and a terrible one at that.
>>
>>16839643
We've not clearly established it's assult. Honestly if you took this to fucking court, you would be charged with WASTING POLICE TIME. She didn't "attack" him, stop trying to butter it up. She didn't assault him either. She hit him with a belt for misbehaving.

>You can apply that to anything that isn't blatantly illegal. With that logic cheating on someone isn't wrong if you don't feel bad about it.

Cheating is intentionally betraying someone. Hitting a kid for misbehaving with no prior knowledge that the father your dating would not be okay with this isn't in the same fucking ballpark. Nor would it make it illegal. It WOULDN'T GET TAKEN TO COURT over a misunderstanding. You WOULD have a case on your hands over repeated abuse of this, but a one time case? No, you seriously need to drop this bullshit of assault. It's going nowhere.
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>>16839682
>She hit him with a belt
Which is assault.
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>>16839682
"She didn't assault him, she just assaulted him because he was annoying her."
>>
How about you just don't hit children? Why is that so hard for people to not do? Just don't fucking do it. I was scared of my dad growing up but you know what? He ever once hit me, ever. All mommy had to say was "Wait until your father gets home." and that terrified me. He ever hit me though, he just knew how to keep you intimidated and in your place.

That's a good parent, that's how its done.
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>>16839687
Prove it.
>>16839692
Prove it.

Prove that it was assault, and prove that a police officer would convict her of assault for this.
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>>16839700
>Prove that it was assault
I'll use your shitty tactic: Google Assault.

>prove that a police officer would convict her of assault for this.
lol do you want to call a police officer? Please, you've lost this argument.
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>>16839250
The thumb rule still applies to many modern cases of simple abuse.
I would have asked her how many lashes she gave then whipped her while explaining why she is so obviously retarded for using violent punishment when I never consented to it or was even informed.
That's exactly how I'd handle a bad babysitter. The fuckheads that think corporal punishment, for young children, is ok are all retarded and had their potential IQ spanked away.
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>>16839704
I didn't ask the definition of assault. I'm asking you to prove that she assaulted him.
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>>16839700
We would need to get an actual cop or somebody needs to start citing sources. However, tellin people they can't and shouldn't call for help get is, again, essentially enabling abusers. In case you haven't noticed, these are character attacks because WE ARE NOT IN LEGAL COURT NOT EVEN IN MAGICAL RP LAND
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>>16839706
There has never been a thumb rule in existance. This is bullshit feminists spread. Piss off.
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>>16839700
>prove that a police officer would convict her of assault for this.
That doesn't even matter.

>>16839667
>No because women are given special treatment in court even in cases of clear abuse.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/men-women-prison-sentence-length-gender-gap_n_1874742.html

Women are living on easy mode when it comes to crimes. Not being convicted doesn't mean you didn't do anything wrong.
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>>16839722
>That doesn't even matter.

It does. You're saying it's assault. So I want you to prove that it's assault. You're being a complete asshat twisting words to suit your debate. You know damn well that it isn't assault, you're arguing semantics here. So I'm just doing the same. Prove that it's assault.
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>>16839728
>It does.
It doesn't. Even OJ got off.

>You're being a complete asshat twisting words to suit your debate.
The irony is amazing.

>You know damn well that it isn't assault
I know damn well it was. She had no legal right to "discipline" him so she attacked him with a belt. That' assault.
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>>16839740
>She had no legal right to "discipline" him so she attacked him with a belt. That' assault.

Great! So you'll have no issue proving that her intent was assault, then!
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>>16839744
>you'll have no issue proving that her intent was assault
I guess I can attack anyone I want with a belt if I just say it wasn't my intent.

:)
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>>16839751
>I guess I can attack anyone I want with a belt if I just say it wasn't my intent.
Oh, but you are implying that assault was her intent. Since you are implying this, you must be able to prove it was! So Prove it to me. I'm still waiting for that proof that it was assault

:)
>>
>>16839744
She fully intended to hit him with that belt under the false guise of discipline which she had no legal right to.

Your move, champ.
>>
>>16839757
>you are implying that assault was her intent
Link me to where I said this.

I simply said she assaulted him, nothing else.
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>>16838998
Anyway, she stepped too far.
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>>16839761
So you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was false guise? Excellent! Glad to hear it. So...how do you know that?
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>>16839771
She claimed it was discipline and since she's such a good citizen, she knows it was against the law but did it anyway.
>>
>>16839767
Implications aren't said, they are implied. You're saying that she assaulted the kid. I'm asking you to prove that she assaulted him. You're saying by legal definition it is assault, this is your main debate, legally it's assault. So, legally, you would have to prove that assault was her intent.
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>>16839728
How do you attack someone without intent? Was she sleepwalking?
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>>16839788
>You're saying that she assaulted the kid.
Actually, she said it.

>My girlfriend told me he was misbehaving and not listening to her at all and making a mess so she beat him with a belt.
>beat him with a belt
Check and mate.
>>
>>16838998
This is why single parents suck. Yes, this includes single dads. There's a reason why he couldn't keep his wedding vows
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>>16839789
>How do you attack someone without intent?
She attacked him but she didn't really mean it! It was a friendly assault!
>>
>>16839795
That doesn't mean it would be classified as assault. For it to be classified as assault, you would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that she intended to assault the kid. As in, intent to hurt and reasonably cause impending harm, because thats what you would need to prove for it to be classified as assault.
>>
>>16839825
>intent to hurt
She beat a child with a belt. She didn't beat him with a pillow. A 6 year old child. She intended to hurt him. Seriously hurt him? Debatable, but she admitted he was acting in a way that didn't please her so she responded with attack him. That's a calculated move.
>>
>>16839842
No, you're confusing that. Her intent was to chastise him, not assault. She wanted him to stop misbehaving. It was not to cause deliberate harm. So it's not assault.
>>
>>16839853
If she wanted to chastise him then a spanking would have sufficed. Instead she brought a weapon into the equation. Why? Because she wanted to hurt him, that is the ONLY reason she had to bring a belt into it. She wanted to fucking hurt him.
>>
>>16839863
A belt symbolizes authority, and is a well established punishment for chastising children who misbehave. A person can apply more force with their hands than they can a belt, so I'm not seeing your point here. The rest is your biased speculation and assumption, and has no merit. What matters is that it would not be classified as assault, because regardless of whether she had permission or not, her intent was to chastise, and because her INTENT (which is very important when dealing with claims of assault) was to chastise, it can not, nor will it ever be, assault. Game, set, match.
>>
>>16839879
Bull. Shit. The thing about your hands is you can control the amount of pain you give fairly easily and it gets your point across. That's why a simple slap on the head doesn't get moms thrown in jail. Because they didn't put their full force into it. A belt is extremely difficult to control in terms of pain because of how fucking belts work. You either go all in or you've rendered the belt ineffective. Plus this is a female we're talking about, an average female. I doubt her hands are that far off, especially when she's putting full force into a belt.

She got the belt to hurt him, that was the entire point. A spanking symbolizes authority too but that wasn't enough for her. It was clear intent to cause pain onto this little boy. There are other less painful ways to chastise someone and she chose a route that was painful as fuck, because she wanted him to feel pain.

Check and mate.
>>
>>16838998
Sounds like your child has discipline issues. Needed a spanking. 10/10 gf would marry. Just look at your son and see if she over did it.

If your son respected you more there would be no need for her to hit him. All my mother used to need to do to settle me down as a child was say the words "want me to call dad?". Hell that worked all the way to high school.
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>>16839879
>A belt symbolizes authority, and is a well established punishment for chastising children who misbehave
So does an angry spanking and I'd rather take a spanking over getting a angry bitch with a belt any day. Belts are way worse and unnecessary plus leave bruises and at worse cuts all over your body.
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>>16839922
Your insinuation is unfounded. If she intended to cause pain there's a high chance there would be marks left. If this was the case the OP would have said as much, and I would be in agreement with you. However OP did no such thing.

You've already lost the debate because you've involved personal feelings into this matter. You have concluded, without any proof, that the OP intended to cause pain, and in your own words "putting full force" into a belt. It's very clear that you are incapable of rationally thinking things through, because in your mind, anybody who physically chastises a child is someone who sadistically enjoys inflicting pain onto them.

You are not someone capable of giving advice, nor would you be good in a court room because you let personal feelings about your own ethics guide you in declaring if someone is guilty or not. You've completely demonized this woman, who in all honesty when it comes down to it, had the audacity to have a different way of raising a child than you would. That's all it is.

Her intent was to chastise, she achieved that, it was the OPs fault originally for not specifying things and putting her in that position, and it would not be classified as assault because the intent was not to assault, but to chastise, and nothing you say will change that fact.
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I am a 16 year old male and I was wondering if something like lowering my hairline would help with my appearance. My forehead is my #1 insecurity and it has been bugging me for that past 6 years.
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>>16839972
>If she intended to cause pain there's a high chance there would be marks left. If this was the case the OP would have said as much
"Your insinuation is unfounded." You don't know, stop pretending. Let's just ask.

>>16838998
Did the boy have marks on him from her beating?

>You've already lost the debate because you've involved personal feelings into this matter.
I've mentioned morality, yes. But they were just additional points to my argument not the crux of it. You're ignoring it because you were wrong. So no, you're wrong.

>You have concluded, without any proof, that the OP intended to cause pain
My proof is reality. If you've ever seen a belt in your life you'll realize that if you don't put your strength into it, it fails to be an effective punishing tool. It's common sense, just because you ignore reality doesn't make it not true.

>anybody who physically chastises a child is someone who sadistically enjoys inflicting pain onto them
My argument is in that in this specific case she wanted to harm him. Which she did.

>You are not someone capable of giving advice
Says the one who's pro abusing children.

>nor would you be good in a court room
Court rooms aren't devoid of morality despite what you think. Plus all my arguments have logic backing them up, yours do not.

>You've completely demonized this woman
Who deserves to be demonized for assaulting a child.

>who in all honesty when it comes down to it, had the audacity to have a different way of raising a child than you would
Who's child was not hers to raise.

>Her intent was to chastise
Her intent was to harm.

>it was the OPs fault originally for not specifying things and putting her in that position
Your argument was already debunked because of how inanely lacking in common sense it is.

>it would not be classified as assault because the intent was not to assault
It would be because it is.

>nothing you say will change that fact.
Nothing you say will change the fact that it's assault.
>>
Some parents use feints or extreme minimal force to discipline their kids. It's more to scare the kid into relating misbehaving with "pain" (not actually pain, just shock from the confrontation).

Search for scars and realize if your kid is a pussy that would cry for anything.

Hitting a child is something that shouldn't happen at all but you should know better than anyone in this thread that your kid isn't an angel and you're accustomed to the stress he gives, others aren't.
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>>16840080
I don't even want to get involved with this argument but yes he has large red marks and some bruises on his back, arms, and legs. She hit him very hard, unfortunately. Whether that was intentional or she got carried away, I don't know. She hurt him pretty bad and that's what matters. I probably wouldn't be as angry if she gave him a light spanking. I wouldn't like it but it seems less deplorable to me. He was legitimately hurt to address everyone that thinks it was a light punishment, it wasn't.

He very rarely acts out which is why I feel this is even more undeserved, I wouldn't even consider it after a first or second offense. He's a hyper kid, he likes to run around and play but he's not a bad kid. He's very way behaved with his actual babysitters and teachers. Whether that makes me a bad parent or not, I don't care. I don't take out belts for minor discretion or anything really, sorry. I've talked to him about it and he said he just doesn't like her and he doesn't want a mom so he wanted her to go away. How can I be mad at him for that? I talked to him about it and we sorted it out for the future.

As for her. I was only considering forgiving her because she gave me an extremely seemingly heartfelt apology and my son was giving her a hard time so maybe the pressure got her. I think it's clear now that she's just a piece of garbage for what she did and I need to forget she exists. Regardless of reasoning, she hurt him and that's not okay. Thanks for people that seriously responded, I'll cut her out my life.
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>>16840062
Dude just stop
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>>16839330
Not the first time, but if a child has reoccuring belt marks in my state, they can be removed from the home. Jailtime for these kind of things is not immediate. Most abuse cases do not give immediate jail time.

They usually start with some kind of therapy, parenting classes. If the child is determined unsafe for the environment, they are put in foster care until the parent takes classes and does things to earn back their rights.

It literally all depends on the individual situation.
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>>16838998
Call the cops on this cunt and ruin her life. Sue this cunt, make sure everyone she knows hears about this.
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>>16839063
>Using a belt for discipline is obviously abuse and is illegal
Did your parents make you sit in a corner or take you mp3 away lmao!!!
Parents used to punish me with the following: cable wire(dads personal fav), belt, stick, hand, pour salt on the floor and made me get on my knees on said salt, and more.
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>>16839262
>Did you turn out well
I actually did, and after around 10 ish. I never got in trouble. I was the perfect child.
>>
>>16840935

That's fucked, dude. I mean I got slapped in the face once or twice when I was REALLY out of line, I got spanked with a few times when I was much younger. But that's some legit sadistic power-trip shit your parents pulled on you. There's never any reason it needs to get THAT crazy unless your child is literally trying to murder you
>>
>>16840406
>yes he has large red marks and some bruises on his back, arms, and legs. She hit him very hard
Clearing this up completely changes the situation. Yes, you are completely justified in your anger and it would be understandable if you were even more upset. No, you shouldn't give her a second chance.
Spanking with a belt is one thing ( still not a good thing to do in this situation but at least understandable), but leaving marks and bruises, especially in those locations is serious.
>>
you absolutely made the right decision.
I admire you for putting your child first - a lot of single fathers are so desperate for love that they will put the woman first.

Stand strong and cut her out of your life.
There will be more women. Better women. Your son is your only son, and he'll be your son for the rest of your life
>>
>>16838998
You should beat her with a belt.
>>
Neet virgin central doesn't approve or corporal punishment.

Hm
>>
>>16838998
Don't, I've been through this as the son, I've lived 6 years with an abusive step mom , im 23 now and as you can see, I'm on 4 Chan, but on a serious note, I have social anxiety because of that. Do it for your son, he won't forget it.
>>
>>16838998
Didn't read the thread/maybe you got this advice, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here:
>You're both fucking dumb.
Her error is obvious. I understand; I was a babysitter. Beating children used to be the norm pretty recently - NFL players beating their kids with switches, etc. Does that make it healthy? Fuck no, but realize that it's not some "out in space how could this happen" shit. Your style of parenting is actually new... as in new to the human race kind of new. Have some empathy for your fucktard of a girlfriend.

That being said, it's obvious you're an over protective little helicopter parent who doesn't understand how to properly balance your responsibilities.
>dating this girl for 2 years
>2. fucking. YEARS.
>a month ago I started letting her come over to my house
What the fuck? Someone has anxiety and/or possessive issues!
>Whether you believe in that sort of discipline or not, I didn't give her permission to discipline my child.
Oh... OK. So someone you've known for two years and are actively pursuing a future with isn't allowed to discipline your child.... So who is "allowed" to discipline your child, exactly, Mr. Helicopter parent? Or do you believe that every time ANYONE EVER ANYWHERE has a problem with your son, they need to put him in isolation and wait for your approval about what to do? That's impractical and foolish. You are going to have to come to terms with the fact that you cannot cradle your special snowflake in your special tits forever.

Should she have done what she did? FUCK NO. She really fucked up. But your outrage is annoying and naive and, frankly, you're kind of an idiot for not realizing that you should have set forth your expectations for how you want your child treated WAAAAAY before you put this girl in such an awkward fucking position.

You dated her for two YEARS and she's just now allowed in your house and around your son? Fuck that, red flag, run away.
>>
Fucking hate my pussy generation. I've been beaten, not with a belt but... Yeah, anyway, not at all cool that she did it. Punishments were always reserved for parents. Babysitters could put kid in timeout and that's about it.

Lucky my parents realized what discipline worked for me. Not everyone is smart enough or patient enough.

Sorry this happened to you. It's unacceptable to hit someone else's kids. However, I think the whole "spanking your kids is abuse" thing is total shit
>>
Sounds like your kid is a little fucker because you don't know how to discipline him. He probably should have been beaten when he was a little younger, than he would know how to act around strangers.
>>
>>16838998
no, op, I think from what you've disclosed to us, you did the responsible thing. fuck

your biggest mistake was probably trusting that she wouldn't do something like this without explicitly mentioning it to her first
>>
>>16839041
>OP ignores the psychological damage he did to his child
kek
>>
Well, yeah. Frankly OP I would consider my relatioinship with her at all and I would certainly, at least for a few months or another year or 2, not let her near my kid at all. I would absolutely, 100% not let her anywhere near the kid for a long time. That's most important. Whether you see her outside of that is kind of irrelevant. Just don't let her near him. I would break up if I were you, to be honest. But that's just my opinion. The keeping her away from your son part though is obvious.
>>
>>16839063
This and I'm against spanking. If she had spanked him, I would still be livid and angry with her and explain that I don't parent that way (I know that a lot of you disagree, but I simply am not doing that). However, I would forgive that.

A belt is not so forgivable. There are very, very few situations where she could plausibly have done this that would not have been abusive, meaning it would be extremely hard for her to explain away this situation.

I would move on from her too. That's not acceptable and your son should know that.
>>
If you decide to spank your child, that is one thing.

Your girlfriend should never be allowed.

You did the right thing by dropping her. Your son will remember your loyalty when he is a man.
>>
>>16839034
It was not the girlfriends place to discipline the child but what is wrong with using a belt? A belt or hickory switch is not abuse, I would get it all the time as a kid.
>>
I don't have much to add, I just wanted to point out how abusive most of the people in this thread are being to each other. Ironic, no?
>>
>>16838998
Just a word of /adv/ OP. If your son can make someone you've been in a relationship for 2 years want to bea tthe shit out of him, he's going to have problems later. Time and time again parents will say, "Oh my son Zachary is just a little hyper is all," as the little prick is screaming about not being able to get candy.

You night be telling the truth and he might be well behaved, but that might just be around you, if it all.

Just a warning to be a good parent so your kid doesn't become a little brat.
>>
>>16838998
Don't date people without kids
>>
>>16838998
>Am I just being too overprotective or am I right in feeling she stepped too far?

You're right. she went too far.
>>
>>16838998
It's not even a question she went too far in the relationship. The real question is whether to press charges.
>>
>>16838998
Nah you're in the right. These dumb assholes saying some shit about authority figures are talking out their ass. The kid may have been being a little shit but that's nothing. He's fucking six. I know I want to smack the shit out of my son once in a while when he kicks my face (he's two) but as an adult you make the right decision. She had to go fucking find a belt and hit your son with it while his only protection (you) was gone. I'd say she got off easy without any criminal charges even.

If it were my son I'd wait a couple years and kill her. You don't let people get away with hurting your children.
>>
Smack on the buttock is ok,
Beating a kid with a belt is never ok.
Has your son misbehaved with babysitters ?

If you let her into your life again, don't let them be alone for a while. Make sure she is with you and your son during normal activities for 2 reasons. So she can see how you discipline your son, and so your son can see that she is an authority figure as well and that she needs to be respected.
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