Why do people think that men and women, who are romantically unattached and (either party) is attracted to the other sex, can be friends without relationship feelings developing? It makes 0 sense from step 1 to step Z no matter how long I think about it. Women are stereotypical for thinking this and causing (unintentionally, sometimes) orbiters.
Why so gullible, humanity?
Subsequent question: Why do some people prefer or think of friendship as higher than a relationship? A relationship is the purest form of love there is, it takes everything about friendship and adds so many levels to it. It doesn't make any goddamn sense why people see this in this way.
Can anyone explain, refute, or at least give me guidance on what people who think, 1: Opposite genders can be just friends after a sustained time, and/or 2: Friendships are superior to relationships.
1. Opposite sexes (gender is a socialist buzzword) can be friends if they're ugly or one thinks the other is ugly
2. Friendships are people you aren't having sex with
1. Of course they can. Are you stupid? I have several close female friends I wouldn't bone.
2. They're just different, they aren't better or worse inherently. You could have a stronger friendship with one woman than the romantic relationship you have with another, but that's based on individual issues.
I have female friends. I also have females that I fuck- I care about my friends, and the girls that I fuck.
Friends are SUPPOSED to have feelings for each other
some people don't click romantically but they may on a more general, friend level. i've had friends of the opposite sex with both parties not being ugly. the world didn't end, which may be to your surprise
0: Opposite sexes (or genders or whatever) can be friends just fine. The only catch is that you have to friendzone each other. The only reason it's even a problem nowadays is that a generation of men -perhaps even two- has been raised to believe that they don't have a friendzone: that they can only ever see women as potential mates. Once you let go of this bullshit, maintaining friendships with women doesn't just become possible: it gets outright easy. This is an important part of growing up.
1: Friendships are not superior to relationships, but they aren't inferior either. They are so different that frankly, comparing them doesn't make any sense.
I'm not really sure how to answer your questions, but I'll give it a go.
1. I've never found it hard to be friends with females. I have quite a number of female friends whom I haven't even considered having sex with. I wouldn't decline if they asked though.
2. I've usually put a significant other before friends. However, if my bro called and needed help, I'd be there in a heart beat. But that's because we've had a long history together and the friendship is strong. Even if it pissed off the significant other.
Course, I don't date much as I'm often incline to do whatever I want, whenever I feel like it. Doesn't make good dating material.
Science (and non-libruls) knows there are more than 2 sexes. There's chromosomal abnormalities, etc.
This one. Are you saying relationships aren't based around love?
Both parties being technically attracted to the other, ahem, gender?
Other conditions apply to that, such as if they're already in romantic relationships or not, one or both of them.
But assuming the answer is all 'no', that is impressive and unimaginable to me.
Feelings of romantic love are more pure, aren't they?
I don't know what you are talking about to be honest. I'm a straight male and my best friend is a married woman (that I find atractive btw), but I never had any actual intention of having either casual sex or a relatioship with. I actually couldn't even masturbate to her even if I tried because it's as I was thinking about my sister or my mom or something. And I'm pretty sure she feels the same way about me.
yeah no one was in a relationship, and we weren't attracted to each other physically. it happens all the time, just not nearly as much. in addition, you hear a ton of shit about oh i have a crush on or oh my relationship is shit, but who goes talking to others about hey i have this great opposite gendered friend, nothing is going wrong either. just wanted to let you know anon!
Sure. It's simple. Some people chase pussy or cock a lot harder than others is the first thing you have to understand. There are some people who are so mesmerized by the opposite sex it's absolutely impossible for them. You are correct. That's not all people though.
It's the most common mistake I see people make in trying to understand other people - assuming that everyone else must experience things the way you do. Of course this is the way we (humans) think because our only model for understanding what's in other people's heads is considering how we would feel in that situation - and sometimes you're right on the money using this heuristic, and sometimes you're way off.
I do agree many people trick themselves into thinking that a relationship standard or model will work for them because it works for other people far too often.
I used to think this way more (that friendship is higher than romantic relationships) because my best friend is female. She's like a sister to me. And we've always been closer to eachother than to our romantic partners who come and go. They're just whoever we happen to be fucking at the time. She and I on the other hand know eachothers reactions and like and dislikes better than anyone else in the world.
Why would I feel that way about some girl I'm drawn to fucking? How should they know all of these facets of who I am? Perhaps they would if they knew me through all the times my friend has... but in my experience romance complicates things and so romantic relationships begin and end with much more frequency. I do think a commited romantic relationship is wonderful and I hope that my current one will last indefinitely - but no matter how long she knows me she won't have seen who I was when I was 15, or when I was a homeless drug dealer, she won't have taken sword fighting lessons with me when I was 20, or road trips across the country with me. How will she catch up in her knowing of me?
>1: Opposite genders can be just friends after a sustained time
True story from experience. I don't understand why this is hard for other people. If women get attracted to you, be friendly and explain it's not like that. Every woman I've ever done that to feels embarrassed at first and sad. Then I explain that I can be a great asset to them as just a good guy friend. They eventually see the logic and understand its truth. Wouldn't you like to have a hot girl that can wingman for you or help you pick out good outfits to turn other women on? I know I enjoy that. People can be useful to each other without orbiting.
>2: Friendships are superior to relationships.
>A relationship is the purest form of love there is
And love is all you need right? /not really. Also, there are multiple forms of love. Romantic love, I would argue, is actually one of the basest because it's driven by necessity. People want to reproduce and viola! the drive for "romance." Romance is full of expectations, neediness, and necessary lies.
Friendships though can be anything you want them to be. True friendship built on respect for each other and pleasure in each others' company without expectations for physical action etc. seems a lot "purer" to me than:
>Bae why are you going soft don't you find me attractive?
there's time anon, don't give up on the idea that your partner may get to know you better. don't be unrealistic with yourself or stuck on one person either though, which you obviously aren't. people's history makes them, and your friend may always know your history better but not necessarily you in the present if you're spending every day with your partner
>feelings of romantic love are more pure, aren't they?
No. That doesn't even make sense.
Romantic love - Eros, and familial/friendly love - Philia are different.
One isn't better. Both are important.
1. There is a big difference between a physical attraction and a genuine attraction where something may actually work out. Just because you're casually comfortable hanging out with them and think they're attractive enough to bang doesn't mean you can spend every waking moment with them, which is what a relationship ultimately is as a goal. Another poster said it pretty well, not everyone has the exact same experience. I'm not mesmerized by every cute girl that looks my way - my options are open, and I feel that I can date whoever, so I don't have to obsess about getting between her legs if there's other parts of her personality that are grating. I'm friends with plenty of imperfect people, too, so this applies to women.
2) Friendships aren't "better" than relationships, but they come with a totally different lack of burdens. Sure, a relationship means you're getting sex, and someone to pay attention to some of your more intimate emotional needs, but it steals your freedom and individuality. I don't have the expectation that I HAVE to see my friends a certain amount of time during the week. I don't have to text them, compromise on dinner, whatever it may be - I can make my own world and go do whatever sounds good. A relationship involves a significant amount of compromise and dedication, which isn't really all that alluring unless the other person is legitimately worth it. I adore my friends, but we all know we have our own lives, and we connect when those things intersect.
I think you're confusing/oversimplifying several issues here.
You're operating under the assumption that
1.) Platonic love = Romantic love
2.) Physical attraction = Emotional attraction
3.) That all it takes to be in a successfully, healthy relationship is to be close friends.
4.) That all things can only be one way ever.
None of those things is true.
My best friend is a girl. I love her as a friend. We were FWB's for half a minute (both drunk, bored, lonely, horny, and curious). We stopped. Became better, closer, more platonic friends for it. I have never, not even while we were FWBs, considered being in a relationship with her (I love hanging out with her and I'll always have her back, but sometimes she's so stubborn, selfish about things I'd go crazy in 10 minutes if I had to put up with it 24/7).
I've got another friend where it's obvious I think she's attractive as fuck (i've never hid it, it's just an objective fact) and she's said as much to me. But I also think of her as a little sister, and like my best friend, just know I wouldn't be able to be in a romantic relationship with her (it'd be me taking too much care of her, That's not what I need/want in a partner).
My girlfriend, on the other hand, is someone who I care about, who I can rely on, who relies on me, and who I love in a different way than I love any of my other friends. Yes it comes from a kind of base friendship understanding, but it also comes from the fact that we just seem to match up in a lot of ways that makes helps improve eachother's flaws and strengths. We've become better people for
being in each other's lives.
>inb4 you only say all that because you're in a relationship. I knew both of them years before I met my GF.
You can be friends with someone of the opposite gender, and even if a tension builds up, acting on it doesn't necessarily destroy anything, nor do you have to act on it.
Don't project emotional immaturity upon the rest of the world
You're just proving OP to be right. Obviously you aren't just friends with her if you're idolizing her like that. You soundlike you're stuck in the past. The best part of a relationship is creating those connections and having those new experiences like sword fights and travelling with someone who most plan to be with forever. You keep referring to your relationship as someone you're fucking. You love your best friend more than you think and you'll never have a relationship like the one OP talks about because you're so hung up over it. I actually feel bad for you and you're friend and that you can't see you should be with her and not your girl. Who I'm sure is worth more than fuck. Especially if she puts up with your orbiter
Very true. And I do hope it grows into this. Eventually they will simply know me *differently* rather than one better I imagine.
I meant to explain why someone might think romantic relationshits are less than non-romantic relationships in a general sense though and I believe it stems from the fact that (especially when we're young) romantic relationships tend to be more transient.
There's also the whole issue where some couples... really don't seem okay with sharing entire parts of themselves with their partners. I can't speak to this well because it isn't my own experience but I've known men who were unwilling to entertain the idea of sharing some of what makes them... who they are with their partner... which always struck me as bizarre.
I think it just depends on the person seeing how I see guys with female friends all the time and it's presumptuous to assume they're orbiters. I can't do it, but I think that's my hang up on females. Most come off as disingenuous and most end up lacking a sense of loyalty as far as I'm concerned. They also mess with the dynamic of my main group of friends because they wanna be the beta ring leader and 2 of my friends are cuck tier idiots at times. They also tend to think all their male friends want to fuck them. I just keep females in the passing acquaintance status unless I'm interested romantically, in which case I ask them out.
Yeah... that's totally something I haven't heard before. I'm glad you know my friendships better than I do...
I don't 'idolize' her. She just knows me a lot better than anyone else in my life. Her knowing of me makes it easier to talk about some things...
I have referred to my exes as people I was fucking to help clarify my point... but we do all kinds of things that are fun and I could describe in detail the things I was attracted to in each of them. I do love my girlfriend and we do travel together and do exciting things and I hope to make a family with her. My best friend has a husband whose a great friend of mine as well and a beautiful daughter I call my niece.
It would be strange to me that you think because she and I get along well and know each other better than probably anyone else we need to be romantically attached... except it's an opinion I've heard so many time it's become boring.
I do realize many people who describe their life this way might be "orbiters" - usually one of the other. I do realize that I'm not 'normal.' But that was my point... what works for some people isn't a universally workable pattern of relationships...
Just curious, how many people over the age of 25 would would want ti married to a girl who is texting and hanging out with another guy every other day? Or a guy texting and hanging out with another girl all the time?
Probably not worth it when you can find someone who doesn't. So why take the risk of being terminally single and never having a family? Fuck that. Say no to orbiters. It's just gonna cause you drama and headaches in the end
1. Empirical evidence over millenia for one, additionally personal experience and logic.
Why wouldn't they be able to? Just how desperate do you have to be to develop feelings for everybody with different genitals just because you know them for a while? Do you want to bang your sister and your mother too?
2. A romantic relationship seem on a "higher level" for me, since it's "best friends + romance".
Other than sex, what are you gonna get from a female friend that you can't from a male friend?
The "entire" you isn't necessarily representative of who you are, or who you've become. In my past, I've been extraordinarily depressed, and I've been unhealthy with my relationship with women - either in phases of getting with as many girls I can to fill up my ego, or unhealthily obsessed with them. I'm now someone who has learned from these problems, and I have an understanding of who I am as I get close to turning 30. Sharing the bad elements doesn't tell you about who I am.
I really, truly, do not give a shit. A woman who has balance from a legitimate friend means that she might see the rational perspective when we get into an argument. Internalizing things, even if that's between two people, only leads to a big struggle.
Perspective? Someone who lives a different life than you? Variety?
I love my friends, male or female, because they're different than me but share similar interests. We help each other grow, understand the world, and end up better for it. That's what makes them fun.
I already have the correct one
Variety is irrelevant
I don't even actually understand what you mean by variety since most human beings behave the same
>Someone who lives a different life than you?
Literally saying all men are exactly the same. Are you stupid?
Frankly you won't get that much perspective from females on anything that isn't about females and even then, all women are different so yeah. Frankly I've learned more honest things about women from the men in my life than the female friends I've had because the men in my life weren't afraid to say the bad things about both genders.
>She just knows me a lot better than anyone else in my life.
This is how you should describe your girlfriend, not your oneitis.
Remember me when it ends badly, or when you two finally hook up.
I have a hard time with male friendships because I tend to be overly competitive. And not just for simple shit - like... my social dynamics with men are much more guarded and watching them all doing the silly jockying for position BS is some combination of boring and irritating.
I've considered it might be unfair because I do end up with some female friends who are interested in more than friendship but I just don't like a lot of men.
OP, your argument relies on the assumptions that:
1. all men and women are desperate for sex and/or attention
2. this desperation is so unbelievable that they are incapable of restraint
>will get to #3 in a second
These two assumptions only make sense from the /r9k/, desperate beta male perspective. Most women, and many attractive alpha males know that this is not in fact a universal position, but rather the consequence of being sex-starved, and without that starvation the temptation and the inability to resist temptation are greatly diminished; in fact, to the point that normal male/female platonic friendships CAN in fact be maintained even where both parties are sexually attracted to each other. The key is that these individuals are of stronger moral character than you and can respect the expectations and boundaries of the relationship placed onto it by the social contexts.
Finally, the third assumption:
3. Capital-R "Relationships" are fundamentally different than any other human relationship
Here's the issue - all human relationships function by the same principles. The stakes are higher in the prototypical "romantic" relationship because it implies sex and child-rearing, so in that sense yes, it's different. But those differences are only a result of the differing *expectations*, not some sort of fundamental difference, and expectations in a relationship are utterly fluid. Love is a word that is equally applied to family relationships, same-sex (no homo) friendships with your buddies, to pets, hell - some people are even in love with anime characters. Functioning romantic relationships (i.e. not just about sex) are at their heart, great friendships, and great friendships are romantic relationships without the sex. This is the true character of all human relationships.
Therefore you should be able to conclude that two attractive humans in the right context can be capable of restraining sexual attraction while maintaining genuine friendship.
I'm not saying all men are the same - but you're saying all women are the same. I get to have female friends who tell me the best way to identify who's interested, who isn't, what makes her cum, what makes her bored, whatever it may be.
Men and women are all different creatures, but we're on this board talking about general tendencies anyways. Everyone is fucking different.
I don't know people afraid of talking about the bad sides of their gender besides boogeymen/boogeywymyn on 4chan.
Yeah... totally some oneitis going on. It's why we've both had normal dating lives for years...
And I guess now that it's been... 17 years? One of these days were're just going to accidentally have sex... even though we've lived with each other on a couple occasions years ago and during one of those periods we were both single. But now that she's married with a daughter and I'm happily involved with my long term girlfriend that'll just... happen.
>but you're saying all women are the same
Positive I said all women are different directly in my post.
>Females are needed to tell you who's interested in you and what makes her cum
Male friends identify that too and again all females are different and have different points.
Also it's not so much that females can't admit the problems that females have, so much as it's they'll say what the problem is, complain about it, then do it.
I have several female friends who are very close to me. One of them is married so I don't gotta worry about having sex with her and the other is so blase about sex that if I seriously asked her to bone she would. But it'll never come to that because we don't need to. Instead we'll go get food after work and shoot the shit for awhile. It's whatever. I don't let 4chan dictate the relationships I have with people in my life. They can call me an orbiter, a beta, whatever. All I care about is that I enjoy the friendship I have with these women.
You know, this is anecdotal, but I've learned more about females from men. Seriously no one will tell you more truths about women than a man who's been married or has dated for a while for that matter.
Anecdotally, I don't really feel the same, haha. I'm the guy you responded to, but talking with women (with my male friends adding their experiences), lets me figure out what makes the system actually work.
From my perspective, a lot of my guy friends are quick to commit, and then quick to get bitter. Using both people to learn, I've been in pretty happy relationships most of my life.
The reason it's impossible is because single guys who are content with being "friends" with women don't spread their genes, and non-single guys don't want to be friends with women because women are uninteresting and unloyal.
It might seem petty but sometimes I like to keep in touch with strictly female friends just to make partners jealous
Call me a shit, but sometimes I feel that women sexualize jealousy
>Call me a shit, but sometimes I feel that women sexualize jealousy
I'm not going to dispute that somewhere in there might be a just glimmer of truth to that sentiment, but I think it's also misguided. I'm not so sure it's the jealousy, so much as the validation/competitiveness and I guess... spice? irregularity from the norm? that does it.
In my girlfriend's words, "It's actually kind of hot when other girls hit on you or check you out, because it's kind of makes me feel like, 'yeah, I done gud'".
Also, it's kind of a jerk move that you keep friends around specifically for that purpose xD.
It's probably got more to do with the fact that Western culture teaches women that all men everywhere will instantly lose all common sense and loyalty to get their dicks wet, that it's somehow her fault (eg. gee, maybe you shouldn't have eaten that extra slice of cake or been a prude) so she just has to roll over and accept that men have all the self control of freshly pubescent chimpanzees.
Knew this shit was coming...
Trucker, can I have a throaway incase you come to my area so we can chill? You seem pretty cool, I assume you travel around.
(I may or may not have EatsHerVegetables' contact info...)