Alright this comes up whenever theres ever an interaction with or about a tranny near me.
Say theres a mtf. What always triggers a conversation about it is that when I refer to them I use he. Now before I just tried wording my sentences so that I dont need to use a pronoun but Im not really a fan of tip toeing around things. When I say that someone challenges me about it saying she and I give my very straight forward view about why I use he and the person is unhappy about it. This usually triggers some emotional appeal argument which triggers to other side of the controversy and then they start throwing around it. Now to me calling a person 'it' is incredibly disrespectful. I know we do it to babies for some reason but for adults it just seems unreasonable.
This comes up a lot because theres a mtf at my uni.
Okay, op, you can't go around making someone else feel bad about their life's choices just because you can't bring yourself to accept them. That's totally selfish of you, and whether you like it or not, you need to call her a "she".
Your words reflect how you think. Its a very known concept.
How Im perceived by others doesnt really bother me. Some people think Im a dick. Others appreciate my candid character and I would much rather be surrounded by people who like me for me.
I dont speak to appeal to someones feelings. Theres nothing selfish about it. And I dont understand what you mean by accept them. If I didnt Id use 'it'.
>you need to call her a "she".
this is illogical.
If it were about laziness Id use 'she' to avoid the entire mess.
And its not disregarding. The argument to use she is far weaker than the argument to use he. At least how its presented to me. My words reflect my way of thinking. I see no reason to change my way I associate concepts.
The argument to use he only exist in the face of the argument to use she. If you ask me without context then it would be the pronouns I use reflect how I categorize people. Could you give an example of what type of argument you are looking for.
Furthermore as not to get off topic from the thread, could you go into your thinking about how you see the situation. Didnt really make this thread the debate he vs she vs it although to some degree I assumed it would be necessary.
Hey OP, ignore these social justice faggots that have been swimming around here lately.
If that bitch is born a man, still looks like a man, is having surgeries to not be a man, it's still a man, so call him a man and continue your daily activities.
If people take offense, tell them it's 2016 and they're triggering your traditionalism and that they should respect your feelings.
Why can't you just refer to people the way they want to be referred to?
If some John Doe gets famous and uses K-Bomb as an artist name, people call him K-Bomb. If someone wants to be referred to as a woman, refer to that person as a woman. You can keep your opinions about that to yourself.
It's a simple matter of respect.
Assuming you're a dude, if I continue to call you 'she' and consider you a woman, what goes through your mind? And not 'consider you a woman' as in 'lol ur such a girl', but rather: you are, in every sense, female, and I'm completely serious. You're a woman.
Because they are not the same thing. A name is something specific to each individual. Its not a way of categorizing them. the pronoun 'he' or 'she' is not an individual thing. Its like a circle demanding to be called a square. Theres nothing respectful about appeasing illogical demands.
Id like to hear other experiences dealing with situations similar to mine. The only case I could see myself giving into the 'sjw' demands is for triple chromosome people because there isnt a pronoun for them.
That for some reason you are under the impression that I am a woman. That when associating my existence you categorized me as a member of the opposite sex. Id treat it like Id treat the talking of any illogical person.
If the circle identifies as a square, and takes hormones and undergoes surgery and all that crap to become a square, you refer to it as a square.
Not everybody is as lucky as you and I am, to identify with the sex you're born as. Gender =/= sex.
You're just being obtuse about social constructs. Some people are born the wrong gender, it's scientific and has correlation to the brain stem. Not considering gender separate from sex is just your own world view as a kid. Much like not understanding variables as a 5 year old in calculus. I think you should just recognize it as being uncultured, and you should at least make an attempt to understand these movements on a non-tumblr level. Transgendered folks have been here for quite a while, for good reason.
a circle cant be a square anon by definition. You appearance isnt what makes you a woman. Thats insulting to men with feminine looks.
>Gender =/= sex
I dont see gender. Itd be one thing if you just wanted to create a new word like trans-she. But youre demanding you replace a word already in existence.
No, it's science. Some people actually feel like they're a woman, when their body is that of a man.
That said, with surgical possibilities being what they are today, that body can be fixed. Who are you to look down on that?
>Some people are born the wrong gender, it's scientific and has correlation to the brain stem
This is just nonsense. Firstly its not a proven fact. Its a hypothesis. Secondly the mtf was my biology professor. I would bet money that I am more cultured in regards to it than you.
>that body can be fixed
Didnt realize you could change your chromosomes.
>Some people actually feel like they're a woman
When someone feels like they are an animal we just tell them that they are delusional and ignore it. How someone feels isnt about to change the definition of what it means to be a person.
>That body can be fixed
I don't think it's the body that needs fixing. Look at Bruce Jenner, he was an Olympic Gold medal winning athlete. Through the years his mind and body "disagreed" with each other. Why do we assume that it's his body that needed "fixing" and not his mind.
It's just words. Language is completely subject to change. There are whole languages that don't even have a distinction between male and female pronouns. You're just being stubborn for no real reason.
I mean, I can keep calling you a nigger, and you probably won't enjoy it. Maybe you'd even say you're not a nigger. Well, who cares? I'll call you a nigger, my friends will call you a nigger, and I'll write articles about how much of a nigger you are.
I am under the impression that they are a man because they are. What could lead a person to believe a man is a woman. Maybe if you elaborated why you are calling me a woman I could see the analogy but its clear why one would call them a man.
Going with the square circle analogy you post here sounds as though you think being under the impression that a circle is a square and being under the impression that a square is a square are equivalent and validate a point.
>It is, isn't it?
How so? terse empty words dont really carry weight.
>I mean, I can keep calling you a nigger, and you probably won't enjoy it.
Nigger is an incredibly hostile word used as an insult meant to oppress a group of people. It is not an objective way of classifying people. It adds in many assumptions to a group inherently lowering their value based on their background. It reflects a toxic biased way of thinking. The belief that people are not born equal or that others are less valuable. It reflects your way of thinking and who you are. Theres nothing biased about distinguishing between a square and a circle.
>There are whole languages that don't even have a distinction between male and female pronouns.
Should be added this is different than distinguishing them based on how someone feels.
Because he's not a she.
I personally use whatever the fuck pronoun they prefer because ultimately I don't give a fuck, but I can understand why people would have that hangup.
Factually, it's a guy who wants to be female and puts the effort in to appear female. But at the end of the day, they are literally a male.
I was born by definition a man. What aspects of me do you see that would call me a woman. Being a woman or man isnt a guessing game based on how you feel. Theres reason why you distinguish between things. But its seems that youre more interested in trolling so I doubt you are capable of making a logical point if this post is anything to go off of.
If a person sees a circle and calls its a square because duh Id actually be sorry for them and wish for them to seek help.
Science is never a fact. The fact that a correlation has been found at all should ease a skeptic like you to be more amenable. And whether or not you have a mtf biology professor doesn't mean you're actually cultured.
'Arguing' like that only makes you look ignorant and inflexible. Some dogs just can't learn new tricks, it seems.
Baseless assertions like what you made are nonsense. You cant teach a person that 1+1=3 because you said so and expect them to comply.
You attempted to use a hypothesis with insufficient support to be a primary belief as a way to defend transgender as if others who dont agree are wrong.
Dont try to play with facts and people are more open.
op the issue here is that our society views gender dysphoria or "being trandgender" as a "thing that you're born as". It's equated to something like being gay, although sexuality and gender identity are completely different.
Since it's viewed as "normal"- YOU are the one who appears intolerant when you do not cooperate.
That being said, I don't think you're the one in the wrong here. Gender dysphoria is a serious condition that leads to depression or mutilation in many cases. One could say that "transitioning" is a form of controlled mutilation, since it has negative health consequences.
A much more effective approach is dysphoria counseling/therapy. Just like other mental illnesses, there are productive, gradual steps that one can take to better their mental health.
>YOU are the one who appears intolerant when you do not cooperate.
I find this to be false. I find that its a very vocal minority that try to force transgender to be normal and try to cut down and ostracize anyone who disagrees. However when someone like me gives a candid very others join in and its clear that the majority dont agree but simply dont want trouble. However some go too far and you get people using 'it' which is problematic.
Thankfully in America we don't have to play along with people's fantasies. You can be trans all you want, but I use he for males and she for females. No amount of pumping hormones can change your chromosomes and skeletal structure. If you were a biological rarity who was neither male nor female, then I'd probably call you whatever you want. Otherwise, deal with it. I won't live a lie just because you want to.
Not really baseless. You should stop trying to use words like that, or people might habe to put you on the casting crew of the O'Reilly Factor.
It's not so much of a hypothesis either. The neurological basis is the conclusion of quite a few studies connecting the different regions of the brain.
Look, you don't wish to change your mind about gender identities. You should just recognize you're going to be outnumbered in liberal groups, and should keep to the conservative ingroups. There's your advise. And learn to debate without showing how much of a narcissist you are.
Hostility, ad hominems, using hypothesis as a conclusion.
This is generally the mindset of the opposing side which is part of why their arguments come off as so illogical.
>Look, you don't wish to change your mind about gender identities.
Never said I was looking to and the OP shouldnt give you the impression that I was.
instead of revealing your insecurities, look up the word baseless and then argue how your hypothesis is fact.
>A much more effective approach is dysphoria counseling/therapy. Just like other mental illnesses, there are productive, gradual steps that one can take to better their mental health.
Uh, what? By this do you mean legitimate counseling, the kind which almost all trans people seeking treatment already receive (which often has as one of its goals helping the person figure out if they feel the need to transition, or if they'd be content with something less invasive and drastic) or do you mean reparative therapy (trying to 'cure' gender dysphoria)? Because the latter has repeatedly been proven exceptionally harmful and ineffective and I don't know a single reputable therapist, doctor or researcher who's in favor of it anymore.
There's also quite a bit of research suggesting that gender dysphoria is inborn, or at the least, that it develops very, very early. I don't think you know what you're talking about.
Listen, folks, you don't have to accept that trans people are literally the gender they identify as. Referring to them by the 'correct' pronoun is a basic fucking courtesy, nothing more. An acknowledgment that it's an exceptionally (sometimes debilitatingly) painful condition that, unfortunately, we have no real method of treating at this time. If your partner, brother or best friend had PTSD, and experienced flashbacks and panic attacks whenever a certain subject came up, you'd fucking avoid that subject, now wouldn't you, no matter how much of a conversational inconvenience it was? That behavior doesn't mean you believe "[x subject] is horrible and nobody should ever talk about it again", it's a simple and very easily-performed act of kindness so as not to exacerbate the condition of somebody who through no fault of their own is already experiencing more psychological pain than you're ever likely to deal with.
>Because the latter has repeatedly been proven exceptionally harmful and ineffective
Can't be worse than tranny suicide rates.
>comparing wanting to be a woman with PTSD resulting from extended life or death combat
Do what you want, OP. But if you're not prepared to make an exception for this person, then be prepared for a lot of arguments, personal attacks, and constantly having to explain yourself.
Personally, I don't use their preferred pronouns unless I know the person well. At that point, it's just out of courtesy, because I like them as people. Everyone else can fuck off, because I'm not going to remember shit for strangers.
>Referring to them by the 'correct' pronoun is a basic fucking courtesy, nothing more.
Referring to them by the "wrong" pronoun makes me uncomfortable. Should it be basic fucking courtesy that they let me use the pronoun I'm comfortable with?
Not wasting my afternoon explaining the several levels of misconception in this, but no.
>Can't be worse than tranny suicide rates.
In fact it does exacerbate the already-horrifyingly-high sucide rate for all trans people. A suicide rate that you simply wouldn't see if this
>wanting to be a woman
were a fair summation of gender dysphoria, something I'm pretty sure you know without me telling you.
>But in this case its the wrong pronoun.
You'll notice I put correct in quotes? Listen, I don't completely swallow the party line about trans people being "LITERALLY WOMEN" etc etc. They are what they are -- biologically one thing, and mentally another, and the language I use won't change that. It does me absolutely no harm to refer to somebody by the pronouns they prefer if it helps alleviate some of their suffering, even if it's at odds with what I feel, deep down. If saying only what you believe is that deeply fucking important to you -- get over yourself.
Nobody (apart from a few misguided zealots) thinks that the being trans is a good thing. Gender dysphoria is painful. OBVIOUSLY if we had some form of medication, or therapy, that could treat the mental component, that would be preferable to messy, dangerous and imperfect procedures like SRS, hormone replacement therapy, etc, and then we wouldn't have this dicking-around-with-pronouns business. Unfortunately that's not the world we live in, and given that, it's so fucking easy to be decent to people, even if it sticks in your craw a little.
>It does me absolutely no harm to refer to somebody by the pronouns they prefer if it helps alleviate some of their suffering
It actually does you a lot of harm mentally depending on what you consider harm. You are lying to yourself and breaking down a very distinct line about how men and women are categorized. Like accepting a society that believes a circle can be a square if the person wants it to be. The meaning of a square and circle are distinct and the lines should not be blurred for someones feelings.
have penis, XY chromosomes, are "he".
it's really not a hard concept to understand. OP doesn't want to appeal to something factually and biologically incorrect just to appease someone's ridiculous feelings.
If you feel more comfy dressing like a girl, that's cool. but don't try to make me call you a girl when you've got a dick and I fucking know it. shit doesn't work like that.
>help alleviate suffering
no it fucking doesn't. it helps them feel that their dysmorphia is accepted and that they don't need to get over themselves. no one is helped here, all that is accomplished is making them more delusional.
how do you know it doesn't burn me to the core of my being either? because saying that at any given moment I would be taken completely seriously by my peers if I suddenly want to be referred to as she would literally make me want to kill myself.
When a child grows up and becomes an adult, you don't call them a child anymore do you?
When a guy gets his eyebrows done you don't keep saying he has a mono brow do you?
When a med student works their way up to become a doctor you don't insist on calling them Mr or Mrs do you?
When a male takes hormone pills and puts themselves through surgery and dresses a certain way because they feel they identify as a woman more than a man, then how the fuck can you insist on calling them a man? Men don't look, act or have the same body chemistry as trans women.
if you're gonna kill yourself because someone won't call you she even though they are accepting of your behavior otherwise, you can go right the fuck ahead.
one less self-centered self-worshipping idiot.
As somebody who clearly doesn't know the first thing about the condition, I'm not even sure why you're posting. Do you just spit words all over the place without doing the slightest bit of research every time something like this comes up?
Understand: trans people can't "get over themselves," any more than OCD, schizophrenia, PTSD, depression, homosexuality, or anorexia can be dealt with by tough love and willpower. It's a real condition, and actually, none of those are perfect analogies, as homosexuality isn't a disorder or problematic condition at all and literally all of the rest are more treatable at present than gender dysphoria. It completely floors me how otherwise intelligent people can both believe that trans people are disturbed and mentally ill and also that their condition is a simple delusion that they just need to get past. Or is that how you feel about all mental illnesses?
If a minor grows a beard, acts mature and tries to buy booze, we don't sell it to him because he's still a minor.
When a guy with a unibrow gets them done, he's still a guy with a unibrow who gets his eyebrows done.
Med students are called Mr. or Mrs. because they aren't doctors. Doctors aren't called Mr. Mrs. (most usually don't care if they are though) because they aren't med students.
A male who takes hormone pills and puts themselves through surgery are males who take hormone pills and put themselves through surgery and dress a certain way. They aren't men. There is no female graduation that magically makes them a different gender.
you're misunderstanding me.
I don't think gender dysphoria is as simple as a delusion. however I do kniw for a fact that believing you are genetically female when you are FACTUALLY MALE, IS A FUCKING DELUSION.
>how do you know it doesn't burn me to the core of my being either?
Because gender dysphoria has been a documented condition for centuries, whereas being bitchy about pronouns hasn't ever been documented as causing anyone immense psychological pain. And in your case, because it's blatantly fucking obvious that it doesn't and that you're being dramatic in pursuit of an agenda.
>because saying that at any given moment I would be taken completely seriously by my peers if I suddenly want to be referred to as she would literally make me want to kill myself.
Of course. I'm sure it would.
Yes, it would. I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that I'm surrounded by idiots who will appease nonsense to spare a minority a deluded hurt feeling in spite of literal facts.
Simple, avoid talking to tyrannies. They are mentally ill. They also come pre-installed with the religion of PC and the one commandment of tumblr.
They are like.0001% of the population, so it isn't hard.
They claim they are a woman. If you ask people why they consider themselves a man or woman its because thats how they were born, not how they feel. A few trannies cant claim to be a woman.
Transgenders are literally the spawn of anti-logic. They are (usually) males that tell you that they are women because of their feelings and that you logic is wrong and evil because feelings.