What could he have done?

He is literally the Jeb Bush of anime.

>>137703793
Trump will make anime great again.

Quick assassinations.

His whole strategy involved maximizing mana usage by splitting the contract. This allows for great concentration into offense, but unfortunately he and his servant chooses to duel and drag shit out.

>>137703738
respect the ibc (irish big cock)

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>still not scanned

SCALP

>>137703738

Well, for starters he could have not gone out of his way to enter an obscure death tournament in the back end of nowhere.

Excepting that, he could have not let himself get baited into squaring off with a dude famous for assassinating people like him.

He could also have made more preparations for his death so that he didn't completely screw over his heir.

>>137703738
Had a back-up choice for a Servant that didn't come with a curse that was laser-guided to fuck him over.

Or could've kept his wife away during the Grail War.

I'm curious about how things would've gone if he'd gotten his original choice for Servants, really.

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Fast Wheels was boned even if he won, since Angry Manjew would destroy the human race as an interpretation of his wish.

>>137704226
>I'm curious about how things would've gone if he'd gotten his original choice for Servants, really.
Iskandar would be restrained using command spells and his fighting prowess would be diminished as a result, so not too great.

>>137704324
still gets owned by gill.

Ionian Hetaroi would be usable more though.

The real wild card of the war was berserker, since only he had any chance against Gill.

>>137704218
>be mage professor in britland
>be doing all this cool shit and have a hot wife
>crazy tournament coming up
>I'm pretty badass, I bet I could take that for sure
>got all my sweet magic mercury spells
>god damn I'm awesome
>little faggot stole my summoning item but I don't give much of a fuck because I'm the best
>prepare the most badass fort in a skyscraper
>spend all day making every cool spell I could think of
>get giddy imagining someone having an adventure going through each floor with me at the top as the final boss oh god
>I'm the best
>I even got a buddy there too, just in case you know? ha ha
>smug myself up a bit
>this fucking gunmage won't fight me
>can't catch him
>he's got bullets made out of his ribs or some shit that specifically make all of my magic defenses worthless and cripple me
>servant charms my wife who's there for some reason

>>137704479
That's because the Berserker class has an advantage on the Archer class. Also because he's just "le epic badass".

There's a pic of that somewhere

>>137704025
FUCK OFF

>>137704590
She's there to share the contract so they don't have to worry so much about mana.

Also he ended up getting killed so hard that Waver ended up with his job, his family, his mercury thing (remodeled into a maid), and even most of the credit/infamy for killing him.

>>137704877
I thought it was because Lancelot's big ability is stealing weapons, which makes Gate of Babylon counterproductive against him.

>>137705025
Only if a few gates are opened, such as during their confrontation. Any more gates and Lancelot would have turned into a cactus.

>>137705025
Waver really benefited from entering the Grail War isn't he?

>>137705235
It's been said multiple times already that Gill opening full or starting with EA wins everything.

>>137705482
He was luckly young enough to have a coming-of-age story while everyone else who was older had midlife crisis stories

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>>137704218
Why don't they make more stories in the setting that don't revolve around the Grail War? Expand the universe a bit. I'm sold on the setting but I'm tired of every story being about a Grail War.

>>137703793
>comes from well established family
>start acting all big and stuff
>goes after main character
>gets rekt
>can't get up anymore
>drops out of race
>gets killed anyway

>>137706514
You mean Aozaki prequel, Kara no kyoukai, or Tsukihime? Are you just trying to be dense or have I been gone too long to notice bait?

>>137703738
Shouldn't have get engaged Sola-Ui in the first place especially not during a war.

>>137703738
He's confirmed at least five or ten times more of a magus as Rin, in terms of overall ability in the recent interviews.

Which is why he made the perfect whipping boy for Kerry to demonstrate Kerry's specialty.

He had all the natural ability in the world, but at the end of the day, he wasn't suited for this. He was a researcher, he wasn't a fighter.

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>>137706666

either bait or anime-only crunchyshit-devouring faggatron

>>137706666
I was under the impression they are all only loosely related to each other and didn't take place on the same world.

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>>137707632
be educated

>>137706514

As >>137707767 points out, basically everything Type-Moon takes place in the same world (especially things written by Nasu himself), or close parallel versions of it (Extra, Apocrypha, Kara no Kyoukai).

That said, most of the non-Fate stories have more to do with each other than with anyone you see in Fate/anything. Your best bet for non-Grail War stories if you primarily care about the Fate side of things are the Lord El-Melloi II Case Files novels, which are about things Waver Velvet was doing in between Zero and FSN (they might eventually cover what he does after as well, but so far they've stuck to that time frame). As mysteries they're only alright, but they'll give you your fill of shady wizard politics.

>summon a Servant so shit the only halfway realistic way to win is to keep a low profile and engage in hit-n-run tactics while hoping Lady Luck smiles on you
>fucking draw everyone to his position and let him show off his entire skill set
>waste a command seal on making him attack Saber despite the situation calling for a retreat
>after revealing everything worth knowing about your team's capabilities, turtle up in the most high-profile hotel with no plan on how to proceed or even an idea of what the enemy combatants can do, showing your hand and gaining absolutely nothing for it but still act cocky
>walk in blind and alone into the lair of a man known as the Magus Killer and promptly get your shit pushed in
And so on. Every time he does anything it just makes everything worse, and just about every single time it would have been easy to see in advance that his chosen course of action was moronic.


You can't cure a fool. He was doomed from the start

>>137709538
A lot of what you said there is pretty wrong; because you can't differentiate things you as the viewer knows, compared to what the character knows.

No he never really knew that there was a magus killer, that's who blew up his hotel, or what he really was.

He might have been too arrogant to look into the competition, but still. He thought he was challenging the EInzbeberns, he never knew about a magus killer.

>>137709538

Basically, Kayneth is doomed from the start because he's been drafted into the role of the guy who falls for every single one of everyone else's deceptions, allowing them to still look smart and effective when all the characters who actually matter see through it.

Also, everyone in the fourth and fifth Grail Wars are really, really lucky that they never had to deal with a proper Assassin actually performing their intended role. A lot of people's strategies would have totally collapsed in the face of what we've seen some of them do in spin-offs (although the grail in Fuyuki can only summon Hasan's, so they'd never have to deal with an Assassin like Jack or Li).

>>137704025
>>137709538
every thread

>>137703738
Summon someone better

>>137709706
Kerry was pretty well known in Clock Tower circles, but even if Keyneth didn't know about him, it's also well known that it's suicide to directly assault a magus' workshop, much less of a family that makes superhuman expendable homunculi. He didn't even bring Diarmuid. For all he knew, Saber was waiting at the entrance. It's still a retarded tactical decision.

>>137712109
*And this was AFTER he had most of his resources burned down.

In terms of master capabilities, why was the 5th holy grail war so much weaker than the 4th,

>>137712237
The ritual had long since fallen apart and no one really gave a shit anymore. Anyone have that post about how the Heaven's Feel/HGW was like an Early Access game?

>>137712237
Are you secondary? Most (if not all) 5th War Masters are stronger than their 4th counterparts, it's just that everyone except Kotomine, Bazett, and Zouken were unprepared/inexperienced due to the abnormally short "recharge period".

>>137712109
He knew Saber was occupied fighting off Caster's assault, its the entire reason he launched the attack solo

He thought it was going to be a noble duel between magus families. He was disgusted when he thought the Einzebnerns were doing surprise attacks. This isn't how magus fights are supposed to go; he's supposed to announce himself after getting there, and they come out to face him. Magus are supposed to fight by a code, they have honor, he didn't really get the war aspect yet.

Which of course makes sense, because the three families cover up what the war is really like here, in order to lure scape goats into this death match. They want to fool people thinking its an honorable contest of some sort.

He believed he could handle anything the EInzabern could throw at him as well. Which isn't that far off considering we know what level of magus he is here. Anything short of a guy that's entirely suited to countering magus, and he would have been fine. He obviously didn't know that was Kiritsugu at all, that's not even a question. Rather he thought the Einzebern's had just lost their honor.

Kayneth killing Kotomine's father was indicative of him finally losing his code and honor, and instead playing by what he now understood the rules to be here.

>>137712373
We know that Kayneth is at least five times as much of a magus as Rin was; Nasu listed out their power levels in a recent interview.

Even Willy Wonka is rated higher.

Although Rin is still young

It was the same interview that Nasu confirmed Acht is also a homuncules.

>>137712237
Partly because it came so soon after the fourth, so the memory of all the people who ate shit in the last one was still fresh, and out of the three main families only the Einzberns have anything like a proper representative (Rin is fairly strong, but she doesn't know any of the secrets the heads of the three families are supposed to.)

On top of that, Kirei spent most of the intervening time scheming to keep outside mages who could upset his plans from entering. He got Bazett to participate because he knew he could backstab her and account for one slot that way.

>>137712650
Link? I don't doubt you; I'd just like to read the full thing.

>>137712650
>It was the same interview that Nasu confirmed Acht is also a homuncules
Isn't he a Golem?

>>137712650
Well, let's see.

Rin is probably a lot less competent than her father. But I think the magic crest being passed on makes her stronger (maybe, I don't remember much).

I'd say Illya is more competent than Kariya.

Kerry is weaker than Shirou, but is more capable of coming up with better strategies.

Kotomine is probably capable of defeating Kayneth.

The weird Japanese dude can easily take out the serial killer.

Zouken is stronger and more competent than Zero Kirei.

Sakura is probably a better magic user in the 5th war than Waver was at the 4th.

>>137713439
Rin is way better than her father as a magus, but he's actually tactical, compared to her being basically nothing in that category.

He understands his inferiority, so he cheats heavily.

Pretty much everyone sucks at the grail war, except the Emiyas and Kotomine.
And even they have their own fuck ups.

>>137713439
>Zouken is stronger and more competent than Zero Kirei.
Not really tbqh, he's just much harder to kill. You're right about everything else though, Rin just overpowers Tokiomi in natural talent alone, and they're both kind of idiots when it comes to executing strategy, it's a family trait.

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>>137713574
This guy generally knew what he was doing

>>137713439

On the subject of Waver, it's worth noting that his strength is his knowledge of magic rather than his ability to actually do it. When he meets Luvia for the first time shortly before FSN, he can't do anything against her in an actual fight, but one look is enough for him to work out the entire history of her family magic, how it works, and what she's doing wrong. He wasn't as good in the 4th war and he only got to use his knowledge tracking down Caster, but it would have been a major asset if he and Rider had ever actually had to fight another mage.

>>137713697

People in other continuities are generally better at the Grail War because they have more data to go on and, in the case of Extra, more time to learn the ropes. Characters in Strange Fake talk about all the mistakes people made in the 4th and 5th wars that they aren't going to repeat, and in Apocrypha, where there have been tons of Grail Wars all over, pretty much everyone has their strategy down (although even Reika, who can't use magic and only learned it exists when she accidentally ended up with a Servant, is a better strategist than half the people in Zero and FSN.)

>>137713858
That's no excuse

They've had four or five grail wars in the Fuyuki system already; its kind of on them at this point that only Zouken knows how shit works even now. Its been at least two hundred years to look into the rules even somewhat.

You even have a member of the church who will reluctantly explain shit to you as a neutral party.

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>>137713917
>Kotomine
>Neutral

>>137704479
Shh. You'll wake up that autistic JETfag who argues that Lancelot is the strongest berserker and could've won 4th GW if Kariya hadn't kicked the bucket.

>>137714015
He's fine playing neutral until it suits him to not play neutral. He'll gladly play friendly in order to abuse you worse later on.

The only reason he'd kill you is if your involvement would be a determent to the contest and therefore his entertainment, like he did for Bazett. Since it was clear how it would turn out if she participated, he got rid of her.

He doesn't actually want the grail, this is stated in HF, he only wants what lies beyond it. Which is why he doesn't care who wins as long as someone does. Unless that someone would fuck up him getting what he wants.

>>137703738
He could of not allowed Waver to steal the artefact which let him summon Rider. None of this ntr crap and a much stronger master for Rider. Also much more ruthless so can make most strategic use for his NP's

>>137713917

The first war wasn't actually a war. It just sort of fell apart. The first proper war was the second, and no one made it out of that alive to relay detailed information. They brought the church in after that to limit the killing. The third war lasted only four days before it went to shit and we have no way of knowing how much fighting happened in that time.

The fourth war is, consequently, the first war that actually played out how it was supposed to until near the end. People in the fifth war are mostly worse than the fourth because the people who came out of the first intact and stayed around did their best to make sure that no one coming in was very strong or very informed. People at the Mages' Association don't even really know what happened in the fourth war, as evidenced by the fact that most of them think Waver killed Kayneth. Even Waver doesn't know everything that happened at the very end, and he was occupied by personal business and taken off guard by how soon the fifth war happened, so he wasn't available to clue people in on what he did know (with the exception of Medea's first Master, who he met, but that guy died to early to matter).

I know this is probably a stupid question but-

I've seen Fate Zero and finished the Stay/Night arc of FSN.
I don't want to play through UBW since I just want to watch the animated version.

Is this acceptable?
Am I missing out on big shit from the VN they don't get to explain?

>>137714959
Routes flow into each other; no route gives you all the info, only when presented together do you finally understand the real truth.

If you haven't seen Heaven's Feel for starters, you don't understand yet. Its the conclusion to the story for a reason.

Also yeah, anime changes shit, and you only see a lot of that shit by actually playing.

>>137703738

He could have not been an entitled douchebag, maybe?

His first and second choices for servants also wound up being the worst possible matches for him personality-wise. He would probably have done better with an Archer, Assassin, Caster, or even Berserker type, knowing how those servants' personalities tend to be.

>>137715012
Isn't the whole game like 100 hours long?

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>>137704877

>>137715663

60-80. It's probably better to think of it as reading a trilogy of doorstopper fantasy novels than picking up one book, because there's not a lot in print that can top it for sheer volume of text. The only time the quantity of text really feels like a problem is in some early exposition scenes (around two of those hours are devoted to telling you how many Servants there are over and over and over again in a short span of time, for instance).

On the whole I would say it's worth it. I would recommend the Japanese version if you can read it, though. The English fan translation is now totally accurate as far as I know, but literalism definitely costs it something in character voice and the overall quality of prose.

>>137715663
It's around 60 hours, so about 20 hours per route. You know just by that how much was cut out from the UBW anime adaptation as it had less than 12 hours runtime.

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>>137715983
>>137716024
So i didnt know this was a thing... can somebody spoonfeed me for a sec?
After some real quick "research" it seems like fsn (visual novel) just goes over the story of the fsn:ubw anime, is that right? And the routes are different POVs?

>>137703738
not been a cuck

>>137716173
No. The routes are all from Shirou's POV. They have to be done in order for reasons that will be clear once you go through them.

>>137704226

Kayneth altered the contract.Sola-Ui or whatever her name is provides the mana/prana necessary to materialize Lancer,but Kayneth gets the command seals. He can then fight at his full magical potential.

The real question is why is his wife so fucking retarded?

>hurr, I'll get the seals then make him love me

What did she think would happen,they would ride of into the sunset,Lancer had to die for the grail to activate,or did she think the others wouldn't hunt her down like dogs?

>>137716173
The F/SN VN has three routes: Fate, Unlimited Blade Works and Heaven's Feel.
The routes are locked in in a specific reading order (Fate>UWB>HF) because each route only tells a part of the story on it's own and a lot of plot threads are left open by the end of one route to be explained in the next.
Fate deals with introducing the setting and is the most straightforward of the routes.
UBW has the servant Archer not getting severely injured at the end of the prologue like the other two routes does and has him influences a lot of shit that he isn't able to do in the other routes, thus making the plot go in a whole different direction than it did in Fate. This route focuses mostly on exploring Shirou's character.
HF is the whole premise getting turned on it's head and shit hits the fan in the worst possible way. This route explains the background stuff that only has been hinted at in the previous routes.
Every routes takes place in the same time period but each of them are completely different from the others as early choices changes the course of events to such a degree that each route doesn't resemble the others at all.

>>137716575
>they would ride of into the sunset
Probably this. It was because of Diarmuid's ability (or curse) which makes women love him.

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>>137703738
He should've found a way.