I know it's taboo to post anything about clannad on /a/ as there seems to be a genuine consensus of dislike towards it, however I have yet to hear a sound arguments for any negative feelings towards this anime (outside personal taste). I personally see this a one of the best animes out there right now and still stands the test of time especially in the face for the new BS coming out. So let's try and have an in depth discussion about this anime and why you don't like it.
I'd like to request that you not use the same BS copy paste criticisms
It's a written story, of course it's forced. The show would suck if people didn't have problems. The question is whether the drama was executed tastefully.
>Cop out ending
When you watch any anime you must accept that it's laws of nature do not reflect our own.
multiple realities as well as wish granting were introduced early in the series. It's part of the reality of the clannad universe. It's not like they randomly said at the end "oh and you can get wishes too"
There's nothing wrong with Clannad, it's easily one of the better series KyoAni has done.
People just shit on it because they don't like the way it looks.
Same with Kanon, although Kanon is worse in regards to pacing.
for any fags ranting about ushio's death being forced drama, remember she is nagisa daughter. It is entirely possibly to have the same predisposition to it. However her death was necessary and is a major part of the story as it is part of the dream sequences in the intros of the episodes. .
People generally like Clannad, those that don't dislike it either because of the artstyle, the long lengths of the arcs in season 1, or because they have to pay attention for its last few episodes to not be considered bullshit
This guy gets it.
There's little so depressing than scrolling through threads filled with people trying so desperately to maintain their isolated hugbox that they lose out on some good shows.
I get it though, it sucks when something you like is dragged through casual land.
KEY shows are nearly unwatchable once you realize the immense underlying emotional immaturity they represent. CLANNAD hardly even qualifies as being about humans. The girls that aren't outright non-human are embarrassingly immature, and stupid the point of being just plain retarded. They do not behave like real humans. Their relationships aren't even remotely reminescent of those of a regular human. They can function in society only because the writers boldly claim that they can. They are walking embodiments of the hangups of your average otaku.
Being the kind of wish-fulfillment fantasy it is, I found myself wondering: Am I really supposed to want this? Am I supposed to desire women like these, women who are this emotionally and intellectually immature? Am I supposed to desire women who are not even human? The whole thing is empty. There is no human heart in this fantasy. It is a fantasy of a fearful and insecure mind, and when you place yourself in the story, it is cold and barren, and frankly, somewhat frightening.
nigga we don't watch anime cause we like the women in our 3d world. Its precisely the fact that they are different than these 3dpd that we watch anime. We have transcended this reality.
Also these bitches are like 15 in clannad. In 3d life most girls at that age still act like children. Not every girl was neglected by their dads and had to grow up and give hndjobs in the parking lot to feel like someone loved them. So i'd say in some regards it's realistic. The unrealistic part in my opinion is the loyalty this bitches have for the MC.
> Am I really supposed to want this?
Supposed to? Is there like some law written where we ought to like certain types of things? While it may be a observation that humans like other humans it is but a mere observation not a law. As I said before. We have transcended such things. We are creators and thus lust after things not in existence.
a lot of people don't like the eyes
there is a better lead up to the dragonballs in the VN
although I still barely had any fucking clue what was with the other world.
I still just love me some KEY though
Fiction is not an excuse to have characters that are defined by a single quirky character trait. Characters should have depth, strengths, and flaws that conflict with the flaws of other characters to create drama. This is not what KEY does. KEY takes one-dimensional characters who are defined by their archetype and odd trait, takes that trait to the extreme, and then imposes conditions upon them that come out of left field or could have been easily avoided. This is then presented with melodramatic "sad" music and posited as being tragic. It is contrived. It is manipulative. It is easily avoided by anyone with even a modicum of script-writing talent.
I need to replay the VN with this in mind. that is exactly why I really fucking hate Kotomi. but didn't feel the same about the other characters. I can see it with fuuko and nagisa, but I think at least kyou and tomoyo are better
Welcome to the world of anime. If you want realism then watch some shoujo romance. Complaining about realism in a cartoon is a stupid excuse to not like it.
>Characters should have depth, strengths, and flaws
Not every girl was perfect. A lot of them had their problems and their strengths that helped make the MC a better person.
>. This is then presented with melodramatic "sad" music and posited as being tragic
Geee I don't know. maybe because it's a fucking drama genre anime?
Dumbass. That's like complaining that water is wet
that's essential the movie ending (except the kyou part). However it is a generally accepted fact that had nagisa stayed dead it would only been logical that tomoya would have gotten with teacher kyou (which in my opinion would make for a great continuation of the series.)
>KEY takes one-dimensional characters who are defined by their archetype and odd trait, takes that trait to the extreme
Wasn't that different for Kanon though? iirc, most of the main 5 started out as simple one-dimensional characters, but were quickly shown to be much more than that as the story progressed. Then again, that depends on which version of Kanon (VN, 2006, or 2002) being talked about.
It has scenes the anime mentions but never shows. It also shows Nagisa in a different light. If you can get over the fact that Tomoya has a different VA, it's really good.
This guy gets it.
Nice pasta though
Clannad is 'forced drama'. It's forced because the characters aren't people that can be empathised with because of their human qualities, they don't seem to have anything like thought processes of their own or even actual self awareness, they are all essentially dolls which get thrown around by the plot in the most tastelessly dramatic ways they can. It truly is bad and seeing so many people here like it without irony is a damn shame.
If you found yourself crying over it, while finding that drama otherwise barely wrings emotion out of you, as so many people who love it seem to report, you probably legitimately have autism in all seriousness.
>Is there like some law written where we ought to like certain types of things?
Kek, no, there's no law. But liking it is telling of an empathetically stunted nature.
>If you want realism then watch some shoujo romance.
Ha, ahaha. AHAHAHA!
You're not necessarily wrong, but I'm not sure you'd get why.
the thing about the ending though, it kinda makes most of the character's development on after story obsolete
you know that scene with ushio and tomoya talking in the sunflower field? yeah, it never happened
that scene where tomoya forgives his dad? yeah that never happened too
except for the ending the show is pretty good
Dango dango dango dango dango dango daikazoku~
I haven't had a good dose of bitch tears lately, just listening to the song is making my eyes water again.
I just watched Clannad for the first time and my feelings on it are mixed. I definitely felt like there were tons of forced drama. There are four separate instances of death by car accident and three by illness, plus a death by plane crash and one by childbirth. The moment Nagisa died because the stars perfectly aligned just to make her die by childbirth (due to not being able to go to the hospital), I couldn't take the drama seriously anymore and I laughed like a madman the moment Ushio also died because Tomoya just enforced it by taking her out on the snowy streets.
That aside, I liked that the characters were generally not over-the-top in how they behaved (aside from some one-note quirks like Sanae crying over her shitty bread and Akio chasing after her). Animation was also really good and so was the music. I was fine with the ending, it was pretty much as I was expecting due to the whole "these orbs grant wishes" stuff.
The movie is okay, but man, I watched it right after the series and going from KyoAni to Toei made me want to kill myself in terms of animation quality. All those shitty sudden painted still-frames and afterimages in the movie, damn.
Did you even watch the fucking series? First off. What thought process would be necessary outside of their problems? Kitomi was an autistic genius living in her own world. She wasn't very worldly to begin with. Kyou and ryou were just your average love struck school girls. just to give a few examples. The characters were focus on their problems. Did you not watch tomoyo's arc? C'mon man. I feel like you were to busy dusting off the cheeto powder from your fedora to actually pay attention.
>four separate instances of death by car accident
only two people died in a car accident (gang leader bro and tomoyo's mom). Fuko didn't die. Car accidents are common so its not that big a shock.
>three by illness
Nagisa and ushio are of the same genetics. It makes sense she would die. Also if you paid attention you would know nagisa's illness is related to the condition of the town. The other ones i can think of is fuko (just a coma) and that cat dudes master but he is irrelevant and a minor minor character)
>aside from some one-note quirks like Sanae crying over her shitty bread
again if you paid attention you learn that they do that on purpose to make nagisa laugh.
Rewatch it nigger.
People on /a/ are contrarian so there is a strong hate towards overrated shows, but /a/ being elitist it what makes this place best
Yes this show isn't that bad, but it's still not a good show. Please watch more then >20 shows to realize this is just another melodramatic piece of garbage written to wring as much tears as possible from you.
>The girls that aren't outright non-human are embarrassingly immature, and stupid the point of being just plain retarded. They do not behave like real humans. Their relationships aren't even remotely reminescent of those of a regular human.
What are you basing this off of? Your experiences? Maybe if you're used to shallow thoughtlessness and the tendency to ignore issues and not think about them, least of all talk about them, it might make sense, but even that's a byproduct of a flawed culture where being anything other than emotionally cold or empty is frowned upon.
Not to say that some of the girls aren't ridiculous at times (or always, like Kotomi), but the rest are largely products of their environment (with the exception of Kyou, who, for some reason, transcends that). Just because they're not ridiculously flawless as they are meant to be (like ERASED's Airi, who is in no way a human character at all) doesn't mean they're entirely the opposite. At worst, they're products of their environments. At best, you're judging them through the lens of someone who's used to completely different people.
Plus, remember their ages. If, around that time, you didn't have some conflicting thoughts or emotions that were at least half as bad as some of theirs, you're going to be emotionally decrepit by the age of 25. Are you American, by any chance?
>Clannad fans thinking they're more emotionally mature than people who don't
I'm sorry. But seeing Ushio suddenly regard someone she's never seen before in her life as the most important person in the world, to the point that she's willing to needlessly sacrifice herself in every possible aspect, as a 5 year old, is hilarious.
The way she obeys everything like someone who has suffered only the deepest neglect would and seems to have no desires of her own; I can't imagine any person with any amount of sense believing she remotely resembles anything close to a normal young girl. So many characters display similar, alien like behaviour, as they exist for the sake of seeming as grotesquely innocent as possible or otherwise hammering home their unchanging personality traits.
Yet you seem to interpret other people's complaints merely as that the characters are too emotionally open or even simply that they are judging them for being imperfect.
When it's too obvious that the creators are just trying to jerk your tears, with little regard for much else, it breaks suspension of disbelief. This prevents people from emotionally connecting to the story.
Maeda mostly just writes the saddest shit he can come up with and leaves it at that. It doesn't work all the time, or for all people. Occasionally when he goes into more depth things work out better. Tomoyo After and the latter part of After Story are generally subjected to much less hate than everything else Maeda has been involved in, although how much of that is a selection effect due to the people who didn't like what came before it not getting as far as these parts, and how much is due to these parts genuinely having more appeal is questionable. Mere exposure effect and normalisation of ridiculous premises over extended periods of time probably play a role to some extent as well.
>outside personal taste
everything is personal taste in the end, there is no objective quality
Doesn't sound like you know a lot of children then. Plus, the way you say 'suddenly' makes it sound like you think the idea of Akio and Sanae telling her about her daddy off-camera in the 5 year time skip is outlandish.
>believing she remotely resembles anything close to a normal young girl
In Ushio's case, that's entirely the point, yet you're trying to generalize that for the older characters when the argument doesn't apply to them at all.
>unchanging personality traits
It sounds more like you've gotten overly used to the anime cliche of everyone doing 180s in the space of a couple of months, if not less, and now think that that's supposed to be the norm.
>Tomoyo After and the latter part of After Story are generally subjected to much less hate than everything else Maeda has been involved in
This alone should give you some insight into how ridiculous that argument is every single time it's mentioned, regardless of the things you said.
The only thing wrong with the show is the art style. If I ended up in one of those "you get a billion dollars - which anime/manga do you fund?" scenarios I'd immediately commission KyoAni to remake it scene for scene but with their current style and not Key's bug-eyed bullshit.
The Maedahate in general. He may be a hack, but people actually enjoying Tomoyo After is as clear a sign as any that the issue partly rests with /a/'s inability to understand people (or themes that don't match the ones they were brought up with, such as family) as well.
Then why doesn't Ushio get ill in the ending timeline too? It's not like the town stopped changing, they're still outside the newly-built hospital at the end.
I wasn't saying those quirks were bad, just that they were there. You also had stuff like Tomoyo comboing Sunohara and Kotomi playing the violin terribly. They're character quirks, but they don't make up the entirety of the characters like some other anon said.
The mere fact that almost every character in such a small cast had this kind of baggage (be it in the past or present) eventually made me desynthetized to it and unable to feel anything for them. Tomoya says towards the end he felt like the town itself was messing with him, and so did I in regards to the writers. There is such a thing as being too dramatic.
I actually work with children every day. You're ignoring the major part of what is bizarre with her and what I could never see a child in her situation doing. Real children have desires. They want things and are capable of complaining if things don't go their way. I've never heard of a child freely choosing to not cry because she's been told she isn't allowed to in specific circumstances, which is probably the most inexplicably weird thing she does that isn't going out of her way to foreshadow her own death for no reason.
Ushio is essentially a doll, she obeys more or less everything she is told, for no reason other than to seem as innocent and, in the eyes of the viewer, as good as conceivably possible.
>that's entirely the point
What point? And it absolutely does apply to a large number of the older characters.
>It sounds more like you've gotten overly used to the anime cliche of everyone doing 180s in the space of a couple of months
I'm talking about parents raising their own son in law's child for five years and still acting like the stock comic relief that they've always been no matter what and barely showing any sense of resentment.
>(or themes that don't match the ones they were brought up with, such as family)
This is a big thing. I suspect that a huge amount of love for Clannad stems from the way that it actually portrays something regarding family values, but from a completely non-conservative perspective for once. The more or less unique quality is a huge legitimate attraction the series has for many people, who would otherwise not care for things portraying similar themes.
This really doesn't excuse Maeda from writing sickly melodrama around atrocious characters, which deserves all the criticism it gets.
>I actually work with children every day.
And I could say that I'm an astronaut. It's easy to bullshit your way through arguments online, as you yourself have demonstrated.
>Real children have desires. They want things and are capable of complaining if things don't go their way.
And Ushio doesn't?
>I've never heard of a child freely choosing to not cry because she's been told she isn't allowed to in specific circumstances, which is probably the most inexplicably weird thing she does that isn't going out of her way to foreshadow her own death for no reason.
>I've never heard of a child doing something that she's been raised to do
This alone shows that you still have a long way to go before you can even begin to understand how the minds of children and their parents work. Your entire argument here rests on the fact that you do not understand Sanae's personality.
>and barely showing any sense of resentment.
Resentment? Towards? If they blamed anyone but themselves for the existence of the illness, Nagisa dying because of it and Tomoya being broken for years as a result, it'd be both ridiculous to the point that they wouldn't be considered human, and, given Akio's two talks with Tomoya, completely out of character.
She's supposed to be stunted.
>and barely showing
Good thing events can happen off-camera as well. Hell, this one's even more ridiculous ridiculous given that Tomoya even catches them in a sad moment eventually.
What sense of the word conservative are you using here? Marrying and starting a family is pretty in line with conservative family values for the most part, Japanese or otherwise.
>And it absolutely does apply to a large number of the older characters.
You've still yet to explain how, outside of using your flawed anecdotes that aren't backed by research or reality. Normally that's about as far as I would've gone, but you've even shown that you've forgotten several events by now. For your own sake, rewatch the series or go through the VN again.
>It's a written story, of course it's forced.
There is a difference between "forcing" and "pacing" anon. The fuck?
>The question is whether the drama was executed tastefully.
You just admitted it was forced, so of course it wasn''t.