>Never talking about animation, let alone know the animators who worked in their cartoon.
>Not even interested to learn.
>Inventing "Forced Animation" meme even though don't know anything about animation.
>"Story and characters are the only factor that important in my cartoon ! ".
/a/ talks about animation often, but regardless are you surprised that people care more about story and characters? They are objectively more interesting and important than animation, and most series just don't have the budget to offer anything else.
It's not about budget, but talent. And it's a whole.
Lurk moar faggot. Your in the chons now, you rollin with the bigboys
this is an anime board, for discussing japanese animation. /co/ is a cartoon board, for discussing western animation. If you want to discuss the technicalities of animation, or elements of the medium itself, /ic/ has a regular animation general
We talk about animation all the time. Lurk more.
What if I'm that anon who tried to start sakuga thread a couple of month ago.
And it's like only one or two thread that filled with 100+ responses, and I had to throw a bait like that Kubota tweets.
The last time I tried to make one, an autist was telling to fuck off with your general thread.
Fresh off the boat, from reddit, kid? heh I remember when I was just like you. Braindead. Lemme give you a tip so you can make it in this cyber sanctuary: never make jokes like that. You got no reputation here, you got no name, you got jackshit here. It's survival of the fittest and you ain't gonna survive long on 4chan by saying stupid jokes that your little hugbox cuntsucking reddit friends would upboat. None of that here. You don't upboat. You don't downboat. This ain't reddit, kid. This is 4chan. We have REAL intellectual discussion, something I don't think you're all that familiar with. You don't like it, you can hit the bricks on over to imgur, you daily show watching son of a bitch. I hope you don't tho. I hope you stay here and learn our ways. Things are different here, unlike any other place that the light of internet pop culture reaches. You can be anything here. Me ? heh, I'm a judge.. this place.... this place has a lot to offer... heh you'll see, kid . . . that is if you can handle it.
>The last time I tried to make one, an autist was telling to fuck off with your general thread.
There are pretty common "post good animation" threads which are dedicated to sakuga.
I remember that thread; you could've ignored the autistic faggot. That aside, the board was getting a lot of sakuga threads at the time so we were running out of things to discuss. A thread filled with the same webms and the occasional bait comment isn't a very interesting one.
>all the time
I think I haven't see anyone here praises the works of China, Hamaguchi, and others in Ooya-san.
Well, sometimes some people here also notice how good Osomatsu-san #18, which is Fujiasawa first directorial debut, or Ebata solo ED in Dimension W. But it's maybe just two or three anons, and no further discussion.
Lots of people on /a/ are still caught up in "self-loathing anime fan" sensibilities and would rather just attribute anything that looks nice or different to budget, since it sounds suitably detached and saves a lot of actual research on or respect for the medium.
So I guess it's just more common to circlejerk over certain directors or just to paint broad strokes based on studio. Which is sad.
I was thinking about making occasional thread, but this season just kinda dry. Probably next season.
I can't contain the hype for three BONES show at once. I heard Miwa working in HeroAca while Tomioka involved in Bungou Stray Dogs. Conrevo S2 also safe because we get the BONES powerhouse there.
Also, Kyoda is making a move again. Just let til they announced his original BONES anime for next year.
You want to come to /a/ to talk about animators like we can expertly talk about them?
Come on now.
Oh this, yeah I've seen it, it enlightened me.
I feel like I could tell the difference in quality between a good and bad animation before this opening my eyes. I was fascinated by the Touhou fanmade episode (I'm not into Touhou) and then I realized it was just ok.
>I was thinking about making occasional thread, but this season just kinda dry. Probably next season.
The problem is that sakuga is just pretty rare - when you add up all the scenes in a given season it's only enough for one thread. So repeated sakuga threads are invariably going to contain lots of the same content.
>starting enough threads about the same subject that you can say "only one or two" of them got 100+ replies
It sounds like you probably deserved to be told to fuck off.
Bungou Stray Dogs is safe. It's just Kadokawa who trying to delay the anime. It supposed to aired this season.
Conrevo, like I said, also safe. Because studio C had most of regular BONES animators.
I guess HeroAca is doing fine even though we still haven't see actual animation footage. Probably Nichigo and TOHO just want to slowly build up the hype and give the actual PV at Anime Japan.
Yeah, though there was some good moment back then. Just like when that Mob Psycho PV exploded.
I don't know but it seems /a/ not really interested in it. But from my perspective, it was really surprising to see Tachikawa Yuzuru directing show at BONES, and that Kameda was missing from OPM's finale because he's the character designer / AD.
Also, remember that Sada Toshi guy who Kameda brought to OPM #3 ? Apparently he also draw this CM.
Shingo Yamashita directed and storyboarded the first PV, also Tatsurou Kawano did solo KA in it.
I just kinda realized that guy is really amazing. Isn't he like, just debuted around 2009 or 2010 with Fumiko no Kokuhaku and then LOUDHOUSE ? Then he's also Yamashita's pal, also he got the role Action Animation Director for Kotetsujou no Kabaneri....
And it seems the most amazing scene in Osomatsu #18 (the part where robot Iyami running and then flying while throwing missiles and weapon at Oso), which everyone assumed it was Norio Matsumoto, turns out to be did by Kawano too.
They could spread themselves like that, but skipping a season to work on a show later down the road allows for better and more work. If Mob Psycho is going to be Bones big animation project then they'll spend more time prepping it.
Ah yeah, and that's make him even more amazing.
Too bad he's working on Kabaneri. I hope he can escape from Araki after it ended. He really needs to hang out with cool people like Yamashita and Ryo-chimo
(Dead ;___; )
You're certainly correct there, but I think it's more common for people on /a/ or elsewhere, to just chalk everything up to the director's influence or the studio rather than specific animators (unless it's somebody more well-known like Yutapon) since the latter option is a more difficult topic to broach for people who don't follow key animators closely.
That in itself is tied to the bigger picture I guess, so typical animation circlejerk/"appreciation" will just be re-posting webms and gifs without too much discussion. Obviously this isn't relegated to /a/ but considering the elitist reputation cultivated over here it is a bit unfortunate that general appreciation/knowledge of sakuga doesn't seem to be very widespread.
Good animation can save a poorly written anime, but good writing cannot save a poorly animated anime.
It doesn't matter how interesting the plot, characters, or setting are; if the animation is terrible, the anime is terrible.
>I don't know but it seems /a/ not really interested in it.
It's more like there just aren't many sakugafags in general. I'd say you're more likely to find them on /a/ than most other places.
See OP? /a/ is a nest for tripfags like these. You better keep walking now.
I don't really see anyone chalk animation up to directors, honestly. Hell, the concept of "animation director" barely even comes up on /a/. I guess you could say that in scenes where everything was well done the director gets credited more, but I think that's just naturally what your attention goes to unless the motion is really what stands out about the scene. If everything is equally well-crafted, you're going to praise the guy who put it all together well over the people who did the individual pieces.
Yeah but those are really simple forms. I think those old cartoons (or even some newer) are great in terms of animation, but that's not comparable to peaks of awesome detailed animation that anime can offer I think. And it depends on the series too.
>good writing cannot save a poorly animated anime
Bullshit. Haibane Renmei. LoGH. For a less "exceptional" example, even Re-Kan was pretty good.
And Aku no Hana's animation wasn't even the problem. It was the basic fucking appearance that was really awful and didn't work at all with the content and the expectation the manga designs gave. The manga itself wasn't great, either, so it's not exactly the poster-child for a perfect story ruined by bad animation.
It's not about detail so much as it is flow. Everything in those cartoons feels very natural on-screen.
That being said, while it's trying a little too hard to be high art in its message, I think Duck Amuck says more about characters through its animation that almost any anime does.
Aku no Hana is one of those things in life that is hated by 99.99% of humanity, who chooses to ignore it and go on with their lives. This unfortunately just leaves cancerous fanfags like you left over, who artificially make it seem like there were a non-trivial number of people who enjoyed this abomination.
You're not entitled to your opinion. You don't have the right to think as you do. You are literally going against the human spirit by trying to argue that this war crime had redeemable qualities.
Haibane Renmei wasn't that badly animated. And it has the good art direction for it too, with a great atmosphere and stunning scenes.
Aku no Hana's cinematography was goat too.
The problem is the lack of information.
People feel they could know everything about their cartoon just by looking at studio name at MAL and saying stuff like "budget", and [insert meme writer here] when talking about the quality of anime.
But almost none of them really understood the production line of anime, the people behind it, the relationship between figures in anime industry, etc.
So it's a good thing that Shirobako happened and /a/ really liked it. Although there are still many people who doesn't care / not even trying to care.
We really need people like Ben Ettinger again.
>Aku no Hana's animation wasn't even the problem. It was the basic fucking appearance that was really awful
This. You could have taken those traced designs and animated them by hand, and you still wouldn't have saved it. They were just ugly, that was all.
It's a crime ignoring the qualities insuffled by Nagahama into this series too. I'm not even a fan of the rotoscope and design, I'm not saying "yeah that's experimental so I like it" (even if we can discuss it, that's not plain bad), but there are qualities, and cons, and the show is putting off so much people because people are dumb and don't know how to judge, just look at MAL, that's a shit community but that's representative how most people hastily judge things on superficial criterias too often and forget other things that can make an anime good (I'm not even saying "it's good because it has good cinematography", I'm saying "good cinematography makes it "feel" good", like, I KNOW that it's good when I watch it, without even thinking or analyzing the method).
>And Aku no Hana's animation wasn't even the problem. It was the basic fucking appearance that was really awful and didn't work at all
Yes it was, you turbine faggot.
Rotoscoping is ungodly, regardless of the character design. You can have rotoscoping with anime style characters, and it's still noticeable and off putting. It is NEVER an acceptable style of animation, regardless of character design.
It's offputting in motion, but it alone doesn't make a show one of the most reviled adaptations of the last decade. There's a reason people mostly post stills to make fun of it.
Animators die off like flies.
They make less than a 7-11 worker and work all day and then eat a top ramen and sleep for 4 hrs before doing it again.
They get burned out quick or catch the japanese cold and never heard from again.
Heavy Metal is not a good movie, it was never a good movie. It has one good sequence in it, the B-17 (and maybe Captain Sternn). You watched it because it had good music and it was a fun movie to watch while stoned, but not because it was a good film.
Well that's partly why I'm saying it's connected to people consuming anime in bulk but being self-loathing about it. They'd rather not learn about something that they're convinced is trash or are just watching for cute girls anyway.
>We really need people like Ben Ettinger again.
He still writes sporadically on that blog of his right? Unfortunately a lot of that material's kinda beyond the scope of your typical audience these days. I'm certainly not versed enough in the medium to really appreciate what he has to say about really old stuff.
Though kViN writing for ANN is pretty cool I guess. Nice to have somebody that actually knows his shit writing for that site.
>people are dumb and don't know how to judge.
That's bullshit and you know it. When some fucker tries to sell me something, or to make money off my attention, then of course I am fucking entitled to judging the product. As I am either the client that bought the DVDs, or the sucker who took the bait during the airing and who got from one to a bazillion ads thrown at him. I don't need to waste three hours of my life writing a deep essay on the pros and cons of the technique and its effect on the work in question.
"It's fucking ugly and off-putting." is a valid answer, and has all the depth required.
You actually find that most of your "dumb judgings" are actually pretty valid once you get to ask yourself what the fuck they mean, and don't hide behind some pretentious shit like them not having commented on the cinematography of the show. It was so damn fucking ugly they didn't even get to enjoy that part!
Fuck this anime and fuck all these 2deep4U morons.
Read PA Work's interview with Toshiyuki Inoue :
PA WORKS: I think many people enter this line of work simply hoping to earn enough to put food on the table. Nobody becomes an animator to get rich. If you want to improve that situation - so at least people think they might be able to earn enough to buy a house and not just scrape by - I think people have to start thinking of themselves more as workers in this sector of industry, so to speak. Company policy should do something to reinforce that consciousness.
Inoue: But people today are definitely more concerned about the pay than before. In my day I never worried about whether I'd make enough to eat, because I saw that other people were eating, so I assumed I could too. I was just happy to be able to work in animation, so I didn't care if I even made enough to eat - I loved it that much. That might not have been a good thing. I probably should have thought about it more seriously, as a way of earning a living. Anyway, I get the feeling there's already more consciousness of what you're saying than there used to be. People have a stronger consciousness of wanting to work in animation and get a good pay for it. But as to whether they're putting in the commensurate effort, I'm not so sure. There's a feeling of wanting more pay for the same amount of work. It's accepted without question that the unit price is in animation today is too low. It's certainly low, but to a certain extent it feels like they're hiding behind that as an excuse for why they're not earning enough. The unit price is much better than it used to be.
PA WORKS: Meaning it's more a lack of horsepower?
Inoue: Well... There are people even today making a good living doing piecework, so if you do the same you should be able to earn the same. But it's definitely true. The unit price today is extremely low. It's anything but high. But then is the answer to demand that the unit price be raised higher and higher? I think that would only make the situation worse.
Say you raise the unit price. As a result, you don't have to do as much, so you do less and less. But then it starts spreading around that the unit price is too low again, so people start asking for a higher unit price, and the unit price gets even higher. The end result is that productivity only keeps getting lower and lower. It's hard to find the perfect balance.
PA WORKS: Hardly any of the GITS: SAC key animation was turned in any faster despite the higher unit price, at least compared with the regular "low" unit price for TV key animation.
Inoue: To them, that's probably the right price to earn a living at their natural pace. Not higher, just right. Even if they were to draw more just because the unit price was a little higher, they still wouldn't be able to get by. I'm guessing that's what it is - they can't make a living at the normal price, but at the GITS: SAC price they can finally make a living at their own pace.
PA WORKS: But I'm not just talking about the balance between turnover and unit price. What I'm talking about is key animation so bad that it has to be totally redone by the director and the animation director. Some might say that's what the director and animation director are being paid for, but at the very minimum we have to be doing the kind of "amalgamated work" that Isao Takahata talks about, otherwise the situation gets totally out of control. There's a phrase that was invented recently to describe when the animation director is overloaded: killing the animation director. Well, the situation has gotten to the point that we're not just killing the animation director - we're even killing the director. There's a real sense of impending crisis, like it's almost gone beyond our control. Japan has built up a great store of animation knowhow over the last few decades, and we've got to transmit that to the younger generation.
>to a certain extent it feels like they're hiding behind that as an excuse for why they're not earning enough.
What exactly is he saying here? That the animators are blaming the unit price when they should blame themselves for not doing enough units, or what?
>"It's fucking ugly and off-putting." is a valid answer, and has all the depth required.
It's a valid (shit) opinion but a vastly biased answer. You could try putting yourself in others shoes, it's nice widening your perception, you might understand some things.
PA WORKS: The production costs are set beforehand, so the only way we can raise the pay is if the show's a hit and we get revenue from that. I'd like the company to give the staff a taste for that, sort of as a way of bringing out a more proffessional attitude. But to do that, we have to become a player, a company that can produce results. It was so nice when I was just another worker and didn't have to think about any of this stuff. (laughs)
Inoue: It's always nice to have a guarantee in place like that. If the series hits a home run, then that bounces back on you in the form of 'success pay'. Of course, I don't think that accounts for even half of people's motivation to do good work. But I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing if people came in just for that reason. That aspiration to make a hit is something that's been missing lately. If a series does hit it big and that doesn't even slightly bounce back onto the staff, and on top of that the pay is low, it's hard to feel motivated. We'd be getting closer to the ideal situation in commercial animation if a show were popular on video or in the theater and that were to ricochet back onto the staff. We've got to try to figure out what people actually want to see, even if it's a little forced for now. For the longest time it felt like the industry didn't even give the slightest thought to what actually interested people. Say you're doing storyboard on a gag anime. When you're given the script, ask yourself: Is this script funny? Did it make me laugh? If not, what can I do to make people laugh with my storyboard? Of course, it sucks if you make people laugh with your storyboard the pay only comes back to the writer, but we've got to take it one step at a time. At the very least it would be a healthy improvement if the people involved in the production were to become the ones to profit from any popularity of their work.
(turning to animator Kosuke Kawazura) You're not in it to get rich, right? You just want to earn enough to get by respectably well?
KAWAZURA: Actually, a lot of people coming in these days do seem concerned about living a good lifestyle.
KAWAZURA: Personally, I'm just happy to be able to be working in animation.
Inoue: That's how it was with me. I spent years just scraping by doing piecework, though suddenly now I find myself at a fixed salary. It's normal to want to live as well as other people. If anything it's unhealthy seeing all this wealth all around you and not being able to touch any of it.
KAWAZURA: Some people are doing pretty well for themselves.
Inoue: Absolutely. Some people are working their asses off and making a lot of money. So it's not impossible. It's just become polarized. And what's more, back when I was starting out the people making a good living were the ones pumping out low-quality key animation by the bucketfull, but now you've got people like Norio Matsumoto drawing huge amounts and keeping it all extremely high-quality. Don't just shrug and say, "Oh, they're special" and give up trying to figure out how they do it. Ask yourself, "How could I draw that much that good?" That's my own 'task' right now - figuring out Norio Matsumoto's secret. (laughs) He's got to have some kind of secret.
PA WORKS: Drawing by intuition? I know he's really fast.
Inoue: Really fast. It feels like he doesn't do any sort of planning. I go through with a light line first to get down the basic shape, but it feels like he just gets right to the drawing and does it all in one go. Otherwise I don't see how he could draw that much. And yet it always feels like he took his time. Mysterious.
>that Norio Matsumoto comment
Even Inoue envies Matsumoto's speed. Judging by the raw key animation in this video, he does plan the basic forms and movements with roughs. Matsumoto's effects are simple in shape but look good too; I'd say he's struck a very nice balance between speed and quality.
You mother fucker. What is an unbiased opinion? We are a fucking biased species, time is a flawed notion that we use to comprehend the world but fluctuates just as much as the space it's tied to, said space that contracts and expands from various factors.
The only way to avoid bias is to artificially determine points and rules, and then we can say the work follows those rules, or not. There, unbias! But are those rules good, relevant, and contribute to the creation of a great work? Or are they meaningless shackles that prevent a work's originality from showing through? Your perception of that is going to be biased. You will say something, I'll say something else, rinse and repeat for seven damn billions time and there absolutely will not be unanimity regarding those rules. Because that's an opinion, shit is biased from the beginning. And most of your knowledge, fuck most of who you are are opinions.
As far as putting myself in another man's shoes, I fucking hate picasso. Guernica is the only work of him that I like, period. Can I understand people liking that shit? Yes, absolutely. Is it fine? Oh yes! Let people enjoy what the fuck they want, I'll say that I don't like it, or since I'm speaking with some fart smelling motherfucker I'll dress it up with "Yeah no, this work really does not... Resonate... within me." to avoid hurting their shitty sensibilities.
But nobody's asking me to buy some fucking Picasso, or to watch it sandwiched, between slabs of ads.
Fuckers be asking my money/attention. Why the fuck would I be putting myself in these faggots' shoes? They are making cash off ME. My biased answers are very fucking relevant to this shit. Fuck you.
I think I see the resemblance to his Bakemonogatari stuff, though it might just be confirmation bias.
Also, love how the classic studio-related shitposting is already starting up in that thread.
And that is why this is an Anime & Manga board, we only care about the finished product. This is not an Anime & Manga Industry board, we don't talk about anime production and shit that's boring and of no use to us.
>You could try putting yourself in others shoes, it's nice widening your perception, you might understand some things.
>I didn't read your bullshit post, you're a retard.
It's not paradoxal, it's retarded. Also, learn to fucking read.
You love aku no hana? Good for you! You find that it's great and filled to the brim with qualities? Great! Nobody is taking that away from you. Nobody fucking cares.
But when the company tries to sell a product, that some fucker, or a lot of fuckers, go "Meh, no, that shit is ugly as fuck." and then YOU go disregarding their opinions as not knowing how to judge things and not widening their perception enough, then you are a mother fucker with a perception about as open as a nun's cunt.
Now, in one sentence because you're a very special person: "Like whatever you want for whatever reasons you want, but if during a business transaction you disregard another's right to his opinion because you disagree with it, you're wonrg, and a sad little cunt."
There. Clear enough for you?
I'm not the seller and I doubt you're actually a client but let's say you are, and that I am.
We are here to discuss our tastes and maybe, in some threads, what were the seemingly objective pros and cons of the show, analyzing what they did right, or not right. We are mostly not here to state if it was worth its price or not (even if that argument can be used I guess), except in the buyfags thread.
That doesn't change the fact that you can judge and learn. If you thought that Evangelion was shit because you didn't understand the ending, why it turned to shit and all. You discuss, you share your opinion, peoples gives you their, you aliment yours with their and their arguments, knowledge and view of the show. It might not change your view (but it could!), at least it will help you to understand how one could like this particular show when you thought it was the worst. So you could be more tolerant with the others who likes this show, and trashtalk it less in the future.
I hope you understand my point, I'm simply saying that your taste isn't a general truth, nor a fixed trait of your personality, and you can easily change it by understanding another's point of view.
But anyway, what you were saying was about being sold to and things, but I fail to see how it concerns us here, except if you, in all your subjectivity, are butthurt because you bought the show and can't yet understand another's point of view to put water in your wine.
It's hard to notice at first, but the show constantly switches between rotoscope and CG models. The latter has the characters having more solid forms while the rotoscoped bits have looser art. The scene at the house right after the ballet intro is CGI.
Muh good animation is outdated, we cinematography now.
Just... Just come back when you learn to read.
I never claimed you were the seller, but yes, we are buyers. When we purchase DVDs, or watch the show as it airs, as money is made, either from our pocket, or through putting us through ads, this is how the system works and I'll be damned if it's not a fucking business transaction.
Also, just how far did you move the goal posts? I have never asserted that my biased opinion (redunduncy, but eh) was right, the general truth, or even anything close to truth. It's not even about it being worth the money we spend or not.
It's about one very special little anon who sighs and laments at other anons' opinion not standing up to his judging standards.
I didn't react to the show, I reacted to some little shitstain claiming that opinions from a client should mesure up to his, a third party's judging standards. Ding dong, that's bullshit.
To rephrase it: We're not talking about the show, we are talking about you dismissing opinions based on your biased, and ridiculous standards.
In other words your post is shit, you moved the goal posts right to another match in which you could have any hope to be relevant.
As for the trash talking, where, THE FUCK, do you think we are?
cinematography is just a form of good storyboarding though. And storyboard is still a rough draft, the final product is still depend on the animator who draw it, and the post-processing.
It may cost more to have a certain director, they may be contractually tied to certain studios, same goes for some animators. Then there's the obvious budget thing, which hopefully would lure good animators. How is the entire episode divided? How long would the delays be to make sure all animators have the exact same style and quality?
I don't know what to do with /a/ nowadays.
I've tried to make a proper sakuga thread, but there again, /a/ isn't even interested, the thread dies quickly, and it's just like a chat between two or three people.
Then I decide to made a bait like this one, and then everyone just jumped to "hello newfag, we discussed about animation everyday :^)"
What went wrong ?
The only way to start non-seasonal-anime threads is with baits and shitposts nowadays. Or at least that's what the majority of posters here believe and that makes it increasingly true.
>I've tried to make a proper sakuga thread
The best way to get the ball rolling is mentioning anitwitter and the sakugabooru people. That'll attract them to the thread and the shitposting fest will begin.
Some sakuga webms might or might not get posted.
If I remember correctly, that was from episode 2 right ?
Where Tsuda Hiromi said the opening of Cyborg009 was """"cool"""" and he was thinking so hard how to explain how amazing Kanada animation to her.
Because it's not a sustainable topic over long periods of time.
Animation threads pop up every now and then, and the topic is referenced in other threads constantly, but you can't keep them up daily because there's only so much you can talk about before it turns into repetition.
Best threads are the infrequent ones anyways.
You'd know this if you actually lurked more.