>>136334895 I liked the manga for the most part. The art style and the story was interesting and It was nice to see some women characteres who aren't only here for the "kyyyaaaaa, look at me falling on my knee I'm weak and useless" and moe purpose. But the last part was too much "powerlevel" bullshit.
>>136337482 Basically, the anime ends at a good spot, but in a rushed way. Mango from there goes on a slippery slope of "bigger badder than the previous abyssal" until it ends in more or less the same way as the anime, except with claire turning into Teresa because the big bad was too OP.
>>136339002 >>136339304 And have you read 'I can launch city-busting attacks across the continents' Abyssals and 'I cut in triple digits mach speed' Claire bullshit Claymore? Guts is at best supersonic and can cut through a thick slab of concrete. Post timeskip Claymore were hypersonic at minimum and cuts through whatever bullshit material those Abyssals are made off, and they were still losing. Guts is good, but nowhere near post timeskip Claymore-verse good.
>>136340443 It's still a shounen series, so power levels are a must. Although I do give it credit for completely shattering the power level it had built up with 'her power is bullshit' Teresa at the end. Quite refreshing to see the hero being that bullshittingly OP.
>>136340420 >Guts is at best supersonic Guts was supersonic back when he fought Zondark. Since then he got significantly stronger, and that's discounting the Berserker Armor which allowed him to outright blitz fucking Grunbeld. Guts can move faster then humans can see while carrying his full equipement (without using the armor), and his attack speed/reactions>>>>>>>his movement speed.
>>136340420 >>136341066 also >can cut through a thick slab of concrete Guts can comfortably block cannonballs. Human form Grunbeld hit a blocking Guts so hard he sent him flying 50+ meters. Apostle form Grunbeld who is>>>>>>>>human form Grunbeld had his attack outright stopped by Berserker armor Guts. T
>>136341140 Anon, you have to understand something. You know that triple digit mach speed sword attack example I gave out for Claire? That's her completely lowest interpretation of that move. Triple fucking digit mach speed. Hypersonic movement/reaction speed. And she was still being overwhelmed by the post time-skip abyssals. Guts is good, not doubting that, but nowhere near Claymore good. And we still haven't gotten to their insane regeneration.
>>136341455 One simple thing, Gut's body is still of a human, thus his strength, speed and especially regeneration ability are severely limited compared to Claymores, his armor only worsens his wounds. If both he and Claire cut off each other's arm, he will surely die due to the lack of blood while Clare can just reattach it.
>>136341870 >despite how illogical it is >a 300+ pound man wearing a 100+ pound armor and a 400+ pound sword moving faster then trained soldiers can see is ok >but him being a lightning timer after an upgrade is bullshit >>136341961 Except Guts' attacks tend to do a bit more then remove limbs on human-sized targets. He usualy decapitates them or cleaves them in half.
>>136341961 >Except Guts' attacks tend to do a bit more then remove limbs on human-sized targets. He usualy decapitates them or cleaves them in half You think it's that easy for him to decapitate Clare? She's too fast for him.
>>136342245 I just posted a scan of a wounded Guts who's also being restrained by Schierke lightning timing, how the fuck is she too fast for him? I can also post Guts reacting to lighning while wounded and with his armor turned off, if you want.
>>136342081 Anon, the image has Guts telling the others to split up just before the lightning attack. This is not lightning timer, it is aim-dodging, nowhere remotely close to lightning-reaction speed. The fastest anyone has ever moved in Berserk is supersonic/supersonic+. If Guts somehow has lightning reaction speed, nothing would be able to harm him ever nor would he struggle against any creature, which is not the case.
>>136342431 Ok, you faggots asked for it. >Guts is downed after taking a direct hit from Ganishka, an insane durability feat, both since he was already wounded and exausted from several battles and because Ganiska later states that his lightning easily obliterates apostles. The armor is turned off.
>>136342458 And you can see Guts telling the other to dodge before doing so. So that must be the slowest moving lightning attack ever, or the attack is so telegraphed that Guts could warn others of the attack before it happened.
>>136342631 This is magical lightning summoned by a demonic demigod, and all of those people almost fucking die you goddamned autist, not to mention guts is wet and wearing metal. But you already knew that, great b8 7/10.
>>136342674 >This is magical lightning summoned by a demonic demigod Ah, so it's the reason it's weaker than real lightning. The emperor dude's nigga flying servant was also hit once and still alive, despise being a physically weak sorcerer.
>>136342643 Except the other anon had said the demi-god was shooting lightning as he was talking. So which is it? Incredibly slow travelling lightning, or did he shoot out the lightning when he wasn't talking?
>>136342807 >sorcerer Also, i doubt Ganiska wanted to kill his right hand man. He hit him again, just to shut him up. Those were love taps, and you are retarded, Ganiska later states that his lightning easily obliterated apostles.
>>136342840 Here's Guts jumping on ship wrecks evading several attacks by Ganiska before he finaly gets hit, because fuck it, shitty footing is bad enough as it is without some ashole spamming lightning at you. Ganiska isn't talking or telegraphing here, he's straight up spamming.
>>136343051 The other guy that jumped, Serpico? Base Serpico is faster and more agile then base Guts, and he's wearing a wind spirit cloack which gives his speed a massive boost and allows him to almost fly. So, yea, he's definitely a lightning timer too. >>136343012 What i thought was a blade was a board, the wreck is uneven so the sword is out of sight on the other side. Nevertheless, Guts is clearly holding a handle in the first panel and there's clearly a sword in the second page.
>>136343122 Oh fuck no. Do you still not understand the implications of lightning-timing people in Berserk? Guts would be slashing several thousand times per second if he had that fast of a combat speed but he had never, ever, done something as absurd as that. The most logical of explanation is that the magical lightning does not actually move and hits like actual lightning. It is Ganiska bullshitting that it does. Because that's the only way to explain all those dodges and direct hits other than lightning speed/tanking Guts. Because otherwise, every single person/creature that has landed a hit on Guts from that point on is now moving beyond lightning speed, which is even more retarded.
>>136343426 You do realize that Guts could move Dragonslayer faster then sound (as in, swordfight) back in The Count arc? He could handle that shit like a supersonic rapier when he was 10 times weaker then the current base Guts. It's just that it's not his style to do that 2fast4u 10000000slices bullshit. And this is right after he got the armor, his first usage of it had him blitzing a guy that can react to canonballs in his sleep. Guts is constantly getting stronger, as in, not just better, but his physical stats are actually increasing, this was even theorized by the witches that because he's in constant contact with the astral realm where belief and willpower have influence on reality he wills himself to be stronger with each fight. >every single person/creature that has landed a hit on Guts from that point on is now moving beyond lightning speed After this was the sea god arc where he was extremely weakened due to being in the sea god. So, yea, no bullshit there.
>>136343678 I already acknowledge that Guts is supersonic/supersonic+. That type of speed is nothing to be laughed off as. But there is a very fine line between someone capable of moving faster than sound versus moving faster than lightning, which no one has ever done in the entirety of the manga. Getting better is one thing, but improving to lightning speed levels? No. Do you have any fucking idea how fucking fast lightning moves?
>>136344395 Considering the retarded powercreep in Claymore, should you really be complaining about this? Golden Age Guts could react to crosbows and that was it. Black Swordsman Guts could already fight at supersonic speeds (not just swing his sword and dodge, he could straight up swordfight like a master swordsman). From there he just kept getting stronger and stronger, and then got a massive upgrade. I already posted evidence Guts is a lightning timer. You can lowball it if you want, but the fact is nothing happened afterwards to disprove this feat. Besides, what he's going up against, he better be a FTL mountainbuster by the end of the manga.
>>136344877 Claymore has always been bullshit so them going at hypersonic speed is actually consistent with that level of bullshit. And whether you like it or not, that page where they were able to speak to each other during the supposed lightning attack goes to show it is not moving at actual lightning speed. Because if it was indeed moving at 3,700 miles per second, Guts would not be able to say a word, or even turn his head to stare at the lightning bolt coming his way during his lightning rod scene, or how everyone else in Gut's group was not hit.
>>136345078 Only the two of them were on the boat, Serpico easily matches Guts in speed, talking is a free action, the lightning rod scene is proof enough, the dialogue between the villains confirms it's as fast as lightning why the fuck wouldn't it be it has the same properties. I've had enough of this bullshit, stop lowballing the feats, unless you have any concrete facts to disprove them, fuck off. Fucking Claymorefags. I bust my ass posting scans and making arguments and all i get is >where's the sword >it's not real lightning >how is anyone else not hurt
>>136345177 Only person who said it moves at lightning speed is the person using said lightning. He also has a massive ego. Because if it behaved like fucking real lightning, and not a fucking magical one, then it would have struck that fucktard flying in the air before Guts and we would not be able to see the reaction faces from everyone else as the strike was coming. Or are you saying everyone else had lightning level reaction speed to react to the near instantaneous lightning attack and give off a look of surprise before it hit?
>>136345363 Is Berserk the first manga you ever read? Because this might come as a giant surprise to you, but sometimes artist like to do shit like give reaction faces to impossibly fast attacks, just to spice things up. Seriously, what the fuck. And did it just maybe strike you that they had that face the whole time Guts was running, and just showed it to add drama to the moment?
>>136345575 Yeah, fuck you. Everything that proves it doesn't move at lightning speed = author's way of showing tension and not representative of its actual showing. Everything that does = True canon speed. I am done here with your disingenuous factpile level of 'debating'.
>>136345696 >being this autistic >having no knowledge of how graphic fiction works Ever read a little manga called Jojo? A hypersonic character and his enemy say about 20 seconds worth of text in the time it takes that hypersonic character to leap 5 feet at that enemy. Normal human characters can easily comment on battles involving FTL characters. This is the most extreme example, but you must see what this is. No one can be this retarded. If you trully wanted complete and utter realism in fiction, anytime someone in Claymore swings a sword there should be massive sonic booms rupturing their eardrums. > Everything that proves it doesn't move at lightning speed Um, your opinion and zero knowledge of how a graphic story works? Yea, you're gonna need to do better then that.
>>136345915 And you're the one arguing that a lightning coming out of a giant demi-god made of clouds, ego and lightning is not magical. Or that in a world where the fastest we have ever seen is supersonic+, somehow two people is capable of going lightning level of speed. Not even all of the people that are stronger than Guts have moved that fast, but somehow he can.
>>136346378 >is not magical No, i'm the one that said it was magical, you're the one that argues it's weaker/slower then regulard lightning. Although the most logical thing would be that he's using his magic to generate regular lightning (since his projection is made of clouds), maybe amping it (i don't know if regular lightning can outright obliterate apostles like he said his can), >Or that in a world where the fastest we have ever seen is supersonic+ Skull knight moves so fast freaking Zodd doesn't have a chance to react, and Femto casually reacts with his back turned. The fastest we've seen is the impossible speed of Godhand, followed by the retarded speed of Skull Knight. >Not even all of the people that are stronger than Guts have moved that fast What people? Godhand? Speed like that is NOTHING to them, they are beyond the concept of speed. Ganishka? He's the one generating the attacks. Skull Knight? The only thing we know about him is that he's retardedly fast, enough to mount attacks on Godhand members and escape unscathed. After the lightning feat we didn't have any more significant Guts speed feats because of the boat. As it stands, it's his last speed feat, done at his strongest thus far. Remember that a weaker version of Guts blitzed the fuck out of Grunbeld, who is EASILY hypersonic+.
>>136346638 Anon, seriously. You are claiming Guts and Serpico are able to move faster than lightning. Do you know what happens when combat happens at those speed? We get DBZ. Are you seriously suggesting they fight at those speeds now?
>>136346931 Do you know what happens if combat happens at hypersonic speeds? YOU FUCKING EXPLODE. Yet Guts has been doing it for years, always faster and faster. >We get DBZ Hardly. Berserk can thanfully differentiate between ''i use all my insticts to be able to attack, block, and dodge at these speeds'' and ''i can read a book and do complicated tasks in the span of seconds''. And as i sad, considering what they're going up against, they'll need all the upgrades they can get. Just all those freaking apostle commanders have me shitting my pants, especially that asshole Locus. He looks just like the ''2fast4u master warrior perfect strikes cut you in half in the span of a blink'' kind of guy.
>>136347121 No anon, it is DBZ level. Claymore, baring some exception, have been consistent in their hypersonic (Mach 5+) combat speed, and has a supernatural element to explain away those speeds. Guts and Serpico somehow moved faster than lightning, which Mach 50,000+. DBZ has them moving in the triple digit mach range before going super saiyan. I'll admit I was wrong, Guts and Serpico has somehow moved faster than DBZ levels of combat.
>>136347470 Look, even if you want to maximally lowball this feat, they still have to be in some conceivable ballpark. The original argument was that Claire was too fast for Guts. These feats show that, at worst, he could very comfortably hang with her, and would most likely even have a significant speed advantage. At absolute worst. At best? He blitzes the fuck out of her.
>>136347604 Right, to which I said that Guts is supersonic/supersonic+. Had it been about him being hypersonic, I can see with some rather outlandish examples. But faster than lightning? That's what I've been trying to disprove. Because that would mean Guts and Serpico now has relativistic feats. That is some impressive levels of wanking there.
>>136347854 Depends on which Abyssals since unless you really want to go lightning timer feat, they just out regenerate his attacks. All of the post time-skip creatures required multiple Claymore to take out. And whether you want to admit it or not, some of those Claymores are just more bullshit than Guts since they are hybrids and have physics defying techniques.
>>136348045 Aren't almost all Abyssals fucked when you cut their heads off? Remember, Apostles have pretty broken regen too, so Guts has learned to always go for the head when possible. He has far more experience fighting things bigger and stronger then him then any Claymore. But i digress. The real reason for all of this is that asshole saying that Guts would be about as effective as Raki in the Claymore universe. Fuck that guy. At worst, Guts would be more powerful then any human Claymore and almost any Awakened Being. At best, he'd be straight up unstopable. Even if we really lowball the lightning timer feat, he still shits on 99% of Claymore in speed alone, and speed has always been his weakes attribute compared to strength and durability. And i get that there's an impression that those things don't matter because shit gets cut in half in Claymore all the time, but beat in mind, Guts didn't suffer any significant injuries from being dragged at supersonic speed while near dead, and he never got cut in half fighting Zodd who would eat your average awakened being for desert. Don't expect Guts to be blitzed, in fact, best case scenario for Claymore is their fastest characters being able to barely keep up with him.
>>136348340 Calm down. I was the one that made the Guts is as effective as Raki comment because Raki doesn't have yomi in him and unable to do those bullshit techniques like Quicksword, Drill sword, Dust Eater, Phantom, etc. You need those techniques to get pass the overpowered defenses that abyssals have to get the finishing blow. And I really don't want to get into another speed debate, but unless Guts has some sort of move that rivals those Claymore's techniques and abyssal sensing powers (because they can disguise themselves), he really doesn't contribute much.
>>136348572 >You need those techniques to get pass the overpowered defenses that abyssals have It think you missed the point of Guts. He doesn't need fancy techniques, he has superior speed, strength, reflexes, endurance, stamina, ect...
>>136334960 >I really want to see the mangaka do another fantasy, his art is great-tier. I kinda dislike it, he can't really draw faces, has sameface syndrome, can't draw blood or flesh properly. The only thing it has going for it is interesting awakened designs.
And here I thought this could be a nice Claymore thread when the post counter was more than the usual 30 or something posts, but it's just childish powerlevel discussion between a butthurt Berserk-fag and other anons. I mean, Guts supersonic? Topkek, this is the premise we hold? The only thing that seemed to clearly and plausibly move at supersonic speed that I recall in Berserk was Rosine.
Anything else is just grossly misinterpreting pages and panels for feat-wanking's sake. It's all just classic manga speed lines and speed conveying effects. Really hard to gauge speeds and for the most part we probably shouldn't, while also using suspension of disbelief, in which case in Claymore it's somewhat easier I think due to the supernatural/super strength foundation being stablished early and more clearly. Personally I enjoy both series and have a formed opinion about this discussion, but I don't think it's even worth getting into it. Even the anon who was butthurt seems very uneducated about the series he seems to hold preference.
>>136350595 If you weren't such a goddamned autist, you'd know that one of the earliest fight's in Berserk, Guts fought an apostle Spawn named Zondark, who wielded a giant axe with a tentacle so fast it was compared to a whip and humans literally couldn't see it. Guts not only mached him blow for blow, he outsped and beat him. This is supersonic speed, and this was post-eclipse Guts at his weakest. He's grown incomparably stronger since then. Guts is universally accepted to be casually supersonic+, in fact you're the first retard i ever heard say otherwise. I suggest you re-read the manga (if you read it in the first place) and pay attention this time. >butthurt You're damn right i'm butthurt, i came here to discuss Claymore and some faggot insulted Guts, i'm not gonna take that shit. >>136349026 As the anon said, they do it to compensate for the lack of speed and strength. Guts doesn't have that problem.
>>136348531 >he would run out of stamina Guts ran 5 days on foot in full gear, only stopping to fight Kushan assassins. Every single apostle fight he ever had he was half-dead from something before hand: Cobra Commando-torture The Count-fighting Zondark and 50 men Rosine-too much shit too count, basically exausted, poisoned, fell off a cliff, fought a fuckton of fodder apostle spawn and 2 super elite ones that really fucked him up Mozgus-ran 5 days without rest, fought his way to the tower and then had to fight Mozgus' miniboss squad Grunbeld-fought hundreds of trolls and an ogre, received a horrible spiritual wound from Slan of Godhand, according to Schrieke the pain was supposed to be so horrible he shouldn't be able to remain conscious (and he did collapse before quickly getting up) Ganiska-fought an entire army of monsters and his right hand man, Daiba Stamina isn't an issue with Guts.
>>136348572 >unless Guts has some sort of move that rivals those Claymore's techniques Doesn't need it. Most of those tehniques are just fancy attacks to confuse the enemy, for example, quicksword, why would Guts need it when he's faster then Irene by default. His speed, strength and combat skill are on a whole nother level then that verse is used to. >because they can disguise themselves And what good does that do them? A sneak attack? Guts would see that shit a mile away. In fact, if they attack him in their human forms they are super fucked, because Guts doesn't wait for his enemies to transform, he outright slaughtered a bunch of apostles during their transformations.
>>136351257 >>136351785 Anon, Post time-skip Claymore's base speed is hypersonic. When further awakened, they exceed that speed by a wide margin. And some are strong enough, like Sophia, to cut through solid stone with ease without awakening, something similar to the pillar cutting feat Guts had during his fight with Scorpio. They still need all of them ganging up on a single Abyssal using moves that atomizes their foes, 'lol wut' movement speed, and near flight wire manipulation, to stalemate. Unless you really want to go the relativistic Guts route, he normally has speeds that ranges from casual supersonic to the rare hypersonic. He is an equivalent of a high ranking Claymore except without the regeneration nor the atomization/triple digit speed/range techniques that they have. He is nowhere near the baseline strength and speed to take on an Abyssal, nor does he has the regeneration to tank the multi-directional hits that Abyssals and its other brethren like to abuse in their fights. He's good, but not that good.
>>136353268 >Unless you really want to go the relativistic Guts route As i said, even if we lowball that feat as much as possible it's still massively hypersonic. Like, absurdly. And it's consistent with his speed increases over the course of the story. >He is nowhere near the baseline strength Think about this, please. Base Guts can handle a 400+ pound sword easier then you or i can handle a pen (this becomes very obvious later in the manga where even when heavily wounded it's obvious his strength is the predominant factor in his swings rather then the sword's weight and momentum). That would put him between 1 and 5 tons, closer to 5. Base Grunbeld hit Guts who was in full guard (he might have been wounded but he was still giving it his all) so hard he sent him flying about 50 meters. That's monstrous strength, somewhere close to 10 tons maybe. Apostle Grunbeld is gigantic (it's a dragon bigger then a whale) and gives him a MASSIVE increase in strength, maybe as much as a 100 tons. Berserker armor Guts outright tanked and stopped a tail swipe from Apostle Grunbeld. Like, he dug his feet in the ground and straight up stopped the attack, Grunbeld couldn't believe it. >speed Like i said, AT LEAST massively hypersonic at this point. >nor does he has the regeneration to tank the multi-directional hits He has shown time and again he has the toughness to take on all manner of superhuman monsters, all of whom are any combination of bigger/stroner/faster/tougher/more mobile then him (usually while he is badly wounded, as my previous post said), tank/evade/counter their best attacks and win. This, coupled with him unmatched combat skill and vast experience fighting everyone and everything, and his massive strength and speed, means he doesn't really need regen here.
>>136354146 How is massively hypersonic consistent with his speed throughout the story? He has been reacting to supersonic speed for a vast majority of the manga with a rare hypersonic feat maybe once or twice. If he casually hypersonic, he wouldn't be taking hits at all. As for strength, this is what an un-awakened Clare, who has one of the lowest strength score among the Claymore's, could do. Are you telling me, this is not comparable to Gut's strength?
>>136354414 That looks more like a feat of speed and precission to me, but yea, very impressive. >How is massively hypersonic consistent with his speed throughout the story When he was 16 he was peak human speed. When he was 19 he could dodge multiple crossbows. When he was 20 he was supersonic combat speed and faster then the eye can see movements. When he fough Rosine, he was fast enough to ambush a supersonic enemy while HEAVILY wounded (i'm talking contender for the worst shape he's ever been in, not counting Eclipse of course). During the Tower or Rebirth he was so fast he could approach a wall in full gear, jump about 5 meters or more into the air and climb through a window and run down a hallway and hide so fast a dude who was looking through the window the whole time didn't see him. During his battle with Grunbeld, after he got the armor, he got so fast that Grunbeld, a top tier apostle second only to Zodd, didn't know what the fuck was going on, he also blitzed a ton of apostles (at the same time) who were strong enough for Zodd and Grunbeld to lead them personally on a critical mission. As i siad, his physical stats are constantly increasing consistently.
>>136354715 Increasing yes, but casual supersonic to massively hypersonic would mean an increase of a magnitude of several folds. You can't even call Guts human at that point nor should anything ever hit him ever again. If he has taken a hit post-Grunbeld, then he is not consistently massively hypersonic. He went from Mach 1 to Mach 5+ increase in speed. Either he is no longer a normal human, or he is simply not that consistently fast.
>>136354948 >casual supersonic to massively hypersonic would mean an increase of a magnitude of several folds Yes, that huge jump happened when he got the Armor. He got several times stronger. >If he has taken a hit post-Grunbeld Just from Ganishka's lightning (Daiba also bullshited him with some magic), and while he was in the sea god, but he was drastically weakened at that time. At present time, lightning feat remains consistent. >Either he is no longer a normal human Anon, normal humans can't do what Golden Age Guts did. As i said, it's been theorized in-universe by people who know what the fuck they're talking about that because of his prolonged contact with the Astral Realm where willpower and belief affect reality, he literally wills himself to be stronger with each fight.
>>136355120 You are seriously underestimating what going from Mach 1 to Mach 5+ increase in speed means here. Not to mention, as you had said earlier, his lightning reaction speed is when his armor isn't active. So, which is it? Is he naturally that fast, or is it his armor? If that is a hypersonic reaction feat like you claim, are you conceding that the lightning isn't going at lightning speed then?
>>136355302 >You are seriously underestimating what going from Mach 1 to Mach 5+ increase in speed means here Anon, the first time i read Guts putting on Berserker Armor i shat my pants, it was like you combined Spiderman, Flash and Hulk and gave it a side of a building for a weapon. Those poor fucking bastards never stood a chance. >his lightning reaction speed is when his armor isn't active Reaction yes, but apparently he needs the armor to dodge. >So, which is it? The feat itself indicates that he is relativistic. But we're lowballing here and i don't want to wank, so lets say: Base Guts-massively supersonic/hypersonic movement, massively hypersonic combat speed Berserker Armor Guts-massively hypersonic movement, retardedly hypersonic combat speed That's lowballing it quite a bit, but ok. >are you conceding that the lightning isn't going at lightning speed then? No, but i'm being fair. I just want to show that the feat indicates his vast superiority in this matter whether we take it at face value or massively lowball it.
>>136355522 How is casual supersonic with the situational hypersonic 'lowballing it'? That is consistent with how the rest of the world is presented, because being massively hypersonic means he now moves faster than this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-51 He is faster than something with a fucking rocket engine. Claymore at least has the excuse of magical demon flesh. Guts goes that fast because he just does?
>>136355735 >How is casual supersonic with the situational hypersonic 'lowballing it' Because the feat itself is relativistic, also it's not ''casual supersonic with the situational hypersonic'' it's hypersonic to massively hypersonic base and massively to retardedly armor. >He is faster than something with a fucking rocket engine Personaly i became ready for anything as soon as he became a supersonic multi-tonner. >Guts goes that fast because he just does? >''As i said, it's been theorized in-universe by people who know what the fuck they're talking about that because of his prolonged contact with the Astral Realm where willpower and belief affect reality, he literally wills himself to be stronger with each fight.'' Magical demon flesh is a pretty shitty excuse compared to reality warping through willpower.
>>136355861 Or maybe, just maybe, it is far easier to believe the unnatural lightning isn't moving at lightning speed and Guts is still supersonic-hypersonic, which is consistent with what we have shown about the world than it is to believe Guts is moving at a significant fraction of the speed of light.
>Magical demon flesh is a pretty shitty excuse compared to reality warping through willpower. Whelp, Guts is now an ork. Guess everyone is getting raped.
>>136356145 Orks don't have dongs, though. Unless there are orcs outside of 40k that can do that. Also, get why it's hard for you to stomach the lightning, but character statements confirm it has at least all the properties of regular lightning (though it might be stronger, since i don't know about regular lightning obliterating apostles), and Guts is at his strongest up to that point, even stronger then when he fought Grunbeld (and he was insanely fast even back then). The problem is, even if it IS slower then regular lightning, you're automatically scaling it to Guts' other feats and massively lowballing it, which makes no sense because: A) it tagged freaking Zodd B)Ganiskha and Daiba dialogue all but outright states it's the same as regular (''humans cannot be faster then lightning'' no way would he say that if it were slower then regular) C) it's freaking Ganiska, a demigod whose astral projection treats top tier apostles like flies, AND it's been stated by Femto that he controlls the elements. Ergo, he probably just summons regular old lightning and manipulates it. So yea. I'm actually going with the hypersonic story because even if we lowball this feat by a factor of 100, Guts is still easily faster then anything in Claymore, maybe by far.
>>136351257 > Guts not only mached him blow for blow, he outsped and beat him. >This is supersonic speed... Really? Is it so easy to be considered "supersonic" in these kinds of silly discussions? Just having hand/sword movements that the eye can barely see (something that we see in most shonen mangas there is, so might as well call everyone doing that "supersonic") ? All I could gather from that scene is that Guts does indeed swing his massive sword incredibly fast but even more so, his reaction time, reflexes and vision accuracy (something that's quite ridiculous considering he's one eyed) are impressive. Far from being "supersonic", the whole point of that scene was to point that, with these elements taken into account, Guts was a swordmaster. Nevermind that that type of exchange looks like basic sword play for Claymore lower ranks or even Claymore trainees.
Might as well mention the mounted fight between Guts and Wyald where people could barely see the sword movements, or Guts vs Zodd at the graveyard of swords. The main point or concept focus given by the author on all these occasions are reflexes and the sword master (if not Berserker) instinct that these characters display. Calling something supersonic not only feels innacurate (and childish) but misses much of the point or sentiments being conveyed by the author.
>and this was post-eclipse Guts at his weakest. He's grown incomparably stronger since then Weakest? I'm not so sure. This is Black Swordsman Guts, Guts who was going through the darkest moment of his life. The strongest apostles he has slayed were from that period of his life. He has gained a powerup in the form of the Berserk armor, but in terms of strength growth, he didn't change much if anything at all; he went through a different character mindset and the more he uses the armor, the worse he gets, his body is completely breaking apart. Again, just the way you put things is so simplistic and reeks of butthurt childish discussion.
>>136356433 Because that would mean relativistic Guts. Do you really want me to believe Berserk has a person that can move at a significant fraction of the speed of light and yet he somehow has trouble against anything else from that point on? Not to mention, despite what you say about the Sea God, as we have seen, not even being struck by lightning and without his armor active, was able to stop him from going relativistic. Because putting the words relativistic and Guts in the same sentence and not being used in a sarcastic way, is an insult to what we've been shown in Berserk so far. Because, seriously. RELATIVISTIC GUTS.
And if we lowball it to just hypersonic, that puts him on par with what the post time-skip Claymore's speeds are, which means, he is still nowhere near the level to take on an Abyssal himself since it took several of them, all going at baseline hypersonic and beyond, to stalemate just one.
>>136356768 The swings were as fast as or faster then a whip, Whips actually break the sound barrier.
And as i said, Guts is consistently getting stronger. As Flora put it. And his feats. I'm not gonna attack you, because i really DO get where you're coming from. >The strongest apostles he has slayed were from that period of his life Actually Mozgus who was a mere apostle spawn was stronger then almost all of them.
>>136356815 >And if we lowball it to just hypersonic MASSIVELY hypersonic. > that puts him on par with what the post time-skip Claymore's speeds are When i keep saying massively hypersonic, i always mean beyond ultrasonic. Just apply that to all my comments.
>>136357200 Ultrasonic Guts... Alright, I'm done. I just can't do this anymore. You are seriously dead-set on believing that a person in Berserk is capable of going ultra-sonic and not see anything wrong with it. If you want to believe that, go right ahead, but I will shake my head in knowing just how far deep end the Berserk fanbase has fallen.
>>136356768 >>136351257 >Guts is universally accepted to be casually supersonic+ Makes me wonder who's acting retard in here.
> You're damn right i'm butthurt, i came here to discuss Claymore and some faggot insulted Guts, i'm not gonna take that shit. Yet you're calling others autistic. Well played anon, very well played.
Look, you don't have to defend Guts to the point of near irrational nonsense with stretched and cherry picked logic. These are different fictional universes and accepting that one probably acts at a faster pace doesn't make it better than the other. So what if Claymores are faster than Guts or Awakened beings are faster than Apostles? It certainly doesn't make one story, or most importantly the characters in it better or superior than the other.
Whether you care or not, my impression if Guts was on the Claymore universe is that I don't think Guts would be all shat over in it. I think he would do well enough for himself (specially if he had the Berserk armor). Yomas wouldn't be much of a concern but awakeneds on average would pose more of a challenge than your run-of-the-mill apostles. With the armor he could hold his own against the average awakened out there. Things would get dangerous if he bumped into single digit ones though. Let alone the abyssals.
>>136357130 > The swings were as fast as or faster then a whip, Whips actually break the sound barrier.
At best that makes the swings, or rather, the angular speed at the tip of the whip/sword/tentacle reaching/slightly breaking the speed of sound, or whatever more accurate classical physics interpretation of this. Calling a character "supersonic" based on that sort of scene is a big stretch in my book.
>And as i said, Guts is consistently getting stronger. As Flora put it. And his feats. I'm not gonna attack you, because i really DO get where you're coming from.
I don't recall Flora saying that. And Mozgus was indeed strong, but more so in his lack of perceived weaknesses.
>>136358468 >Yet you're calling others autistic. Well played anon, very well played. Touche.
Look, i'll be honest with you. I'm not the kind of guy to wank something just because i like it. I make it a point to be objective in any discussion. Sasuke is a faggot but if you told me he'd stomp Guts you'd get no objections from me. But, when i think i'm right, regardless of personal bias, i'll try to make a point. I'm not just cherry picking and wanking here. When i read through the manga a second or third time, i began to notice something. Guts was getting progressively stronger. Not just tougher or more willed, he was actually becoming stronger, faster, more durable, each arc. I think i first noticed it in the Tower of Rebirth, when he ran through a narrow corridor so fast a couple of guards didn't notice the giant in plate armor carrying a monster of a sword going maybe a foot in front of their noses. Since then, i started paying a lot more attention, and sure enough, a pattern occured. >>136354715 >>136354146 I did not pull these things out of my ass, they actually happened in the manga. Maybe you're right, maybe i'm looking into it too much and nothing's there. But i believe there is something. And don't think this is some manchild complex ''g-gurlz stronger then muh manly guts?!" I'm quite fond of Claymore. But after reading Berserk so many times i truly believe this is how strong Guts has become. ESPECIALLY since there's an in-universe explanation.
>>136359496 I know I said I'm out, but anon, I want you to stop and take a look at what you are suggesting. Rather than to believe Guts is simply a rather absurdly strong but normal human who is able to overcome his adversary through a combination of being a master swordman, a big ass sword, a double edge armor, and an unbelievable amount of rage, against a world of monstrous monsters and fantastical creatures, which has been its running theme throughout the manga, you would rather believe that he just simply move faster than lightning because he became something less than human. There could be tons of reason why he could react to it, maybe he was already moving his hand in the previous panels before the lightning attack, or maybe it's an artistic embellishment of him moving faster than normal, but to honestly say that he simply went fraction of speed of light fast, would completely contradict what Berserk is all about, and what Guts is all about.
>>136360717 Be that as it may, Guts' strength has far surpassed humans a long time ago. And again, i understand your concern, which is why i said lets lowball the fuck out of it. It's still fast as fuck. And the lowball is consistent with the speed he's been gaining progressively. I'll even take back the ultrasonic statement. Even if we lowball THAT , he's still able to keep up with/outspeed top tier Claymores. >because he became something less than human Actually, i find the idea that because he never gave up and kept fighting as a sacrifice his connection with the Astral realm combined with his infinite willpower keeps amping him, i find an idea like that to be the ultimate human triumph. Think about it, he's supposed to be dead, but because he survived, unforseen consequences are happening to his enemies who are not as all-powerful as they're like to believe.
>>136361113 Anon, just stop. Do you really want Guts to stop being a human doing normal human things against inhuman things? Or do you actually want him to go literal DBZ on his enemies? One is what Guts has been doing since the start of the manga, the other is DBZ. Guts doesn't need to be top of the Claymore tier, there is no one who will criticize him for not doing so. Because the alternative is that Guts is no different than your generic shounen hero who powers himself up through willpower and can literal flash-step. At that point, he is one 'power of nakama' away from being serialized in Shounen Jump.
>>136361647 >At that point, he is one 'power of nakama' away from being serialized in Shounen Jump With the way things have been going lately (JRPG group), you might just bee a prophet. Anyway, obviously i'm pulling at one extreme and you're pulling at the other. Guts CAN'T be anywhere close to human to be doing what he's been doing. >and can literal flash-step He actually does something similar twice, the window scene i mentioned and the two guards before that. So, you and the other anon made many valid points, i hope you took mine into consideration, i'm going to stop here since i made my main point, which is Guts would be FAR from fodder in Claymore, how powerful he actually is, well, believe what you want to believe, if that asshole Miura ever gets back to work we might get some concrete evidence.
>>136361848 No one ever said he was a fodder in Claymore. Even being compared to Raki isn't a fault since Raki is a normal human being that took down a non-Abyssal by himself. He still can't take on an Abyssal, much like Guts shouldn't either, because Abyssals are really absurdly OP creatures, even in the Claymore-verse. Losing to an Abyssal is in no way a strike against the individual strength of a character. It's a testament to how powerful Abyssals are. It's like if EoS Claire lost to God Hand, no one is going to claim Claire is weak.
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