>>119041818 Hana was terrible. Monogatari is all about Nisio's 'you're living your life incorrectly' speeches and Hana is all 'experiment and be a kid it's ok don't let them get you down'. It was literally bizarre to read.
>>119042817 This is just my >opinion, but I personally liked how her problem was different from all the other girls. It dealt with something that you might see in a realistic teenager that doesn't want to face responsibilities i.e. ignoring things and blaming it on everything around her
>>119043163 Pretty much what I said in >>119043039 since in S1 there's nothing to learn about her character. Although it's kind of sad that she'll never truly learn to face her problems but instead simply avoid the sources that cause them.
>>119042145 >>119042098 Everything in Hana was about 'it's part of growing up'. This is a direct contrast to the iron clad judgment passed down in all the other novels. Even her mother gets a pass based on personality differences. All the other novels are >x is shit this is why >y is shit this is why >z is hypocritical but I don't care and this is why And suddenly Hana's all >oh well your mom and you don't get each other but it's ok and either way you dealt with dead dyke would've been alright
You cannot possibly claim that this isn't an extreme contrast with the other novels. It's the duality of the final decision lacking a iron clad Nisio judgment that makes Hana radically different than all the other novels in the series. And that's where the 'be a kid it's ok it's part of growing up' comes from. It's literally the first time in the series the climax doesn't crush Nisio's intended target. It is frankly bizarre.
>>119045501 There's no dunk. There's no indictment. It's an even bigger pity party than Snake's first outing. You can't dismiss Araragi and Dead Gaen's acceptance of either way was fine either. Especially the former, her Mom would've been shit all over on by Nisio in any other novel for not conforming to the monogatari's 'you gotta confront stuff' overarching theme. In Hana it's treated as a perfectly valid option by two people, even if it isn't the one selected again. Nigga that's crazy.
That's not entirely true. What I took from it was that she was legitimately infatuated with him, like a puppy love on steroids, but not with the real Araragi, just with her idealized version of him, based on her memories from childhood of him being kind and whatever other fantasies she projected onto him. Somewhere in her twisted little mind she knows that the romance she fantasizes about with her idealized Koyomi Onii-chan can never be, both because he does not return her feelings, and ultimately because her feelings are not really for the real him to begin with, but she refuses to consciously accept either of those facts, hoping instead to ignore it just like she ignores all her problems, hoping they will go away eventually.
When she is no longer able to ignore the facts, she decides to instead accept things as they are and becomes adamant that there is nothing wrong in the first place. She loves a false image of Koyomi who doesn't exist, and the real Koyomi, while fond of her on some level, will never love her. But isn't that fine, (she thinks)? In fact it's convenient that way. She can tell other boys she likes someone else, she can enjoy the (false) feeling of being in love, and she never has to risk rejection or heartache of any kind, nor does she have to deal with the trials and tribulations and messy parts of making a real relationship work. It's better than a real relationship in her mind. Loving idealized Koyomi is ideal. Better than actual love with another person.
Nadeko is a waifufag. She has the EXACT same psychological viewpoint as a waifufag.
When she eats the Golden Ticket and becomes the Snake God, she decides to kill Koyomi and the others in order to prevent the real Araragi and his friends/girlfriend from ruining her imaginary Koyomi by existing and possibly forcing her to see them doing things her ideal Koyomi wouldn't do, so it's better to kill the real one and love the imaginary one forever.
>>119045861 How is it treated as a valid opinion? And how is Araragi wishy washy about it? He specifically tells her she needs to do what she thinks is right. The lesson here was not to ignore your own feelings in the hope you will just become accustomed to reality without changing anything. It's to go and fix the things in your life that bother you.
Her mom's philosophy is the same, do something and not just be stagnant water.
>>119046200 It's hard to dismiss Snake's distrust of people when her class, her friends, her teacher, her parents, and bat are actually confederated against her. Literally the only person just looking out for her is onii-chan. It's like doing a show about the stupidity of paranoia whilst the MC is actually being tracked by aliens the whole time.
Could Snake have dealt with it better? Of course. Is she actually wrong about what's making her angry? Nope.
>>119046083 It is because he says 'do what you think' instead of 'this is right this is wrong' that it's different. Her Mom's the antithesis to monogatari's theme and she's just treated as a different but not outright wrong opinion.
Those things are true, as my post you are replying to says, it's just also a bit more complex than that. She does "love" Araragi, but it's not real love, it's an obsessive infatuation with her idealized version of him. Being able to use that infatuation as an excuse for things is just a side benefit for her.
The last part is basically true though. Having the person she is infatuated with dead means that the real Araragi can't fuck up her relationship with the imagined one. It's also romantic to be in love with someone who's dead in her infantile mind. (Ignoring the fact that it would be her who killed him if she had her way.)
That's why I say she is just like a waifufag. She feels like an unrequited love with an imaginary person is far preferable to the messiness and potential hearbreak of a real life relationship with another person.
>>119046704 >the class being fuckwits because of Kaiki's visit never happened >her parents coddling her as illustrated by never opening the closet never happened >phoenix turning on her never happened >bat being bat never happened >the teacher's malaise after watching kaiki's handywork wreck his class never happened Sure anonymous it's all in her head. Literally the only thing I listed not perceived by a third party is the teacher, but it fits with the objectively observed decline of her classmates.
>>119047694 Except we objectively know her class is falling apart from Nise. Her theme of self inflicted tragedy breaks down if her class being in its state of collapse isn't true. It has to be true for her lying to Araragi on the phone when she's so close to confronting an issue directly to be tragic.
>>119048049 We know there is a problem in her class but what state it's in, how the rest of the class sees her and what the teacher asked her to do are all things we see from her perspective. All the narrators in monogatari are unreliable to a certain extent but with snake it's taken to an extreme. So much so that most of what happens is shown to be downright false. You are supposed to question everything snake says and shows you.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here >Her theme of self inflicted tragedy breaks down if her class being in its state of collapse isn't true. It has to be true for her lying to Araragi on the phone when she's so close to confronting an issue directly to be tragic.
>>119048654 The snake pretending to be a scrunchy was actually a scrunchy, her conversation with Ougi she pretended to forget she remembered which shaped the rest of the arc, the real reason she snuck out of her house and dug a bunch of holes in the sand pit and what she was really doing in Araragi's house when he took her there and how it was actually just part of her plan to steal the talisman.
So... pretty much most of it. With that in mind, showing how much of the story was bent, twisted or outright fabricated, the question left is why you believe any of it at all?
>>119048334 How can you not get it? Not confronting and dealing with your own issues is the whole theme of the series (or half of it but whatever). It's tragic that she realizes she needs help but then backs out and doubles down on her delusions at the last possible moment.
Nothing is downright false about what she claims except for the Snake talking to her. Her hair getting cut and her being told to man up by Phoenix are confirmed by Tsukihi and her Brother. Bat trolling the piss out of her is referred back to by Bat herself and nowhere near outside of her character I'm sure even you'll agree. We know her class is on the ropes because of the events in Nise. We know her parents are checked out.
It's hard for me to take Nisio's especially harsh smackdown of Snake when she's literally just doing what everyone else did in their first arcs: making a bad situation worse.
>>119048881 You can assume that lots of what happened is based on actual events, but twisted so as to make Nadeko look good. Picking out where the lies are is not too difficult if you've seen the ending.
>>119049051 First of all >Not confronting and dealing with your own issues is the whole theme of the series (or half of it but whatever). is the main problem with snake, she never does the other half. Is it unfair for niso to not have her go through it? Maybe, but it is what it is. She never goes through the growth the other characters do.
Secondly lots of things are downright false about her narration. If you don't remember go rewatch the last medusa episode. The question becomes what is true, what is mostly true what is twisted by her perception and what is just false.
The only sure thing is trusting her narration at false value is just stupid.
>>119049298 I take nothing at face value from her and never have which is why I repeatedly have brought up things that are confirmed by other characters and even other novels. Again I say the only thing without a third party reference are her accusations toward her teacher.
>>119049703 You're missing the point. The existence of the events is not the only thing in question. How they actually happened has to be questioned too. Just because you get confirmation that Nadeko and Tsukihi/Shinobu talked doesn't mean it went down exactly how Nadeko showed it.
>>119049927 If you think Bat's conversation and it's three wheel direct continuation didn't happen you're willfully bending the narrative. What's shown to be false are her talking to the Snake and her redactions from one conversation. Applying unreliable narrator to anything else except for what was explicitly refuted is non-sequitur. For this novel or any of the others.
Jesus fuck, will we ever stop having to explain Medusa to retarded snakefags?
Shit that was directly stated: -Nadeko was planning on stealing the talisman from Araragi and killing him ever since she talked to Ougi. -Kuchinawa never existed. She pretended that he existed in order to get Araragi to worry about her and let her into his house.
If you're not a moron you can extrapolate these facts: -Tsukihi was holding an intervention for Nadeko. No, Nadeko didn't like it, but it was done out of concern for Nadeko herself. -Shinobu could tell Nadeko was taking advantage of Araragi and plotting something, and chewed her out for it.
There's not really much that's interesting to discuss about Medusa other than to what degree did Nadeko actually love Araragi.
>>119049927 >Just because you get confirmation that Nadeko and Tsukihi/Shinobu talked doesn't mean it went down exactly how Nadeko showed it. Are there proofs to the contrary? Because the way the conversations go doesn't seem like something out of Nadeko's delusions. First, both Tsukihi and Shinobu's characterizations are spot on, and while she does know Tsukihi, she has never met Shinobu before. Second, they directly bring up her issues, which she avoids; why would she portray her own issues exactly how they are if she's deliberately twisting the narration?
>>119050331 I'm not saying the conversations didn't happen. I'm saying trusting Nadeko to tell us the way it really happened is stupid. I've been saying this for a few posts now but you're not fucking listening.
I'm willfully bending the narrative? The medusa narrative is a pretzel. Go watch it again. When Nadeko ran into Ougi Ougi told her about the talisman and Nadeko decided to steal it then. She made up the snake to get Koyomi to worry about her, snuck out of the house and went somewhere he would find her so she could get into his house. She then stole the key so she could sneak back into his house later when there was nobody home so she could search the house.
This is fucking fact. Nadeko confirms this. The entire fucking arc is one giant lie until it's reviled at the end. Nadeko's conversations with Shinbo and Tsukihi are part of this narrative. While they probably actually happened because they are confirmed by outside sources they most likely went down nothing like what you saw.
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