Sure, this is a CG background, but that's not really a bad thing. The way these aerial view shots of backgrounds are used throughout the series add a good sense of dimension to the overall perspective of the setting. Here, it is notable because it is the first time we get a sort of constructed view of Waver's neighborhood. I like the colors here, because it makes the entire setting feel like a sort of scale model. There is quite a bit of detail and effort in making the houses look unique and creating a believable feel of the district. It's a short establishing shot, but combined with the scenes which follow immediately after, it does a good job of making the area feel like it could be a real place.
>>116850087 This shot here is another example of how natural and detailed casual background shots are in the series. It's a short and relatively unimportant scene of Waver shopping in a supermarket. Such a setting will never be used again, and there is no specific importance for the story to make it look great or realistic. But the set designers have enough pride in their work to put in the effort to arrange a layout which is organized, yet not perfectly aligned, and shows a great diversity in the products on the shelves - even those which are out of focus on the corner of the shot. Such scenes are appealing to watch because to feel comfortable and natural, but aren't the type of scene that asks anyone to really take notice. It works because there is nothing out of place to be noticed. A thankless job.
>>116850140 I liked how they animated Waver's face throughout this scene, showing him getting more sleepy and so on. It was very subtle but effective character animation. But the shots which stood out for me where the ones from his POV showing the sky. Hmmm... where have I seen this before? A character's POV from lying on the ground, looking into the sky, surrounded by trees.... and then a plane flies by. Could the director be a fan of Lost by any chance?
Kirei is a man notable for absence and Kiritsugu's uncertainty about the events that unfolded earlier demonstrates that for the most important characters in the show, Kirei is still a mysterious black box. Of course, for the audience Kirei and Kiritsugu have finally been 'revealed' to us.
The scene where Kariya snaps and kills Aoi is probably one of the best directed scenes in the entire series so far. The timing and tone of the entire scene was really disturbing and harsh. As Kariya starts blacking out, there is a strong sense of unease, and it is clear he is going to do something really horrible, but even with an extended period of heavy lead-in, the act itself is still incredibly unpleasant to watch.
There is probably no coincidence that it had strong allusions to a rape scene, from the camera angles, to the positions of their bodies and the thrusting motions. Kariya's carnal desire for Aoi mixed with his despair at realizing that he will never have a place in her heart the way he wants created a raw monster more frightening than Berserker himself. The scene was extremely uncomfortable, but totally effective, and really hammered home the reality of what sort of person Kariya is deep inside.
>>116850216 Aoi doesn't know anything, she has no idea that Kariya did all this for Sakura or even what Sakura is even going through. What she says is terribly cruel to Kariya given what we know he's endured, but she hardly deserves to die. Aoi is one of the few real innocent people in this show.
I'm not savy enough to really notice or internalize stuff at that level. But from my experience, this scene would be one of the several examples in Fate where there was a rush to develop one of the many developing characters, and this created a quite noticeable plothole.
>He was innocent >Why didn't he try and justify himself
If they had not wasted so much time on the Caster action-filler, they could have developed that dynamic more specifically, and avoided gaps in reasoning like this. Same could be said for pic related, the most gaping gap.
>>116850275 >He was innocent >Why didn't he try and justify himself
I thought so too at first, but once you start to think about it his actions made sense. He got there to kill Tokiomi. Even if he didn't do the deed itself, it was still his ultimate goal. Besides that, even if he were to choose to justify himself, the situation he was in would've never let him find his way out. Tokiomi's wife knew he joined the holy grail wars and that he and Tokiomi were enemies. Even if masters don't have to kill each other, everybody in and out of the grail wars knew they were probably going to do so anyway. And he was right there at his corpse. He realized he was past the point of being able to justify his actions/the situation he was in and took another route.
Sure if you think every human would act completly rational at all times even during biggest despair, they could've worked it out, but compared to what's canon, that is less likely than what actually happened. That's just not how it works.
>>116850275 Based on the groundwork the rest of the episode laid out, it is extremely obvious what Kiritsugu plans to do. It cannot be considered a plot twist since the episode is deliberately written and directed to give clear cues that after he realized the plane was filled with zombies, that he had to shoot it down.
Instead, what we are witnessing is Kiritsugu getting into his element for the first time in his life. This is the Kiritsugu who shot a random bystander along the pier simply because he had good enough reason to suspect he was Caster's master. This is the Kiritsugu who lied to Kayneth just to ensure that he could take out Lancer and both his masters. This is the Kiritsugu who will continue to talk to Natalia just to make sure the plane continues on the expected flight course so he shoot it down over the ocean. Even to the only living person in the world he cared about at the time, he would deceive and kill, simply if his instincts told him that was what he had to do. The difference between this time and all the subsequent times he would do this, is that we see him break down for the first time ever. Here we see the real Kiritsugu, the man filled with emotion, conflicts, doubts, anger, and lost to himself and the world. The face he hides from everyone because he has to, including himself.
After two episodes showing how Kiritsugu became the person he is, it is hard to really sympathize with him. Instead it is so much easier to pity him. A man who feels that he is nothing more than a tool the world needs, and who has so little respect for his own emotions and needs. It really drives home why he was the way he is in the very first scene the series started with. A man who feels he has no right to enjoy the rights of a normal person or be a father. What a sad man.
>>116850429 >I thought so too at first, but once you start to think about it his actions made sense. I knew this was coming.
AH. Yea, I can see a total freakout being possible for Kariya in that context, but I personally didn't feel like that was established clearly enough.
>He got there to kill Tokiomi. Wait, what? I totally missed that. And I've watched the series twice.
For example, if it had been taken a bit slower, Aoi could have said some shit about Sakura speficially, lol. That would have precipitated his snapping more effectively.
Also, I don't think Karyia's relationship with Aoi was enunciated clearly enough. There was just that scene, initially, where he met her and the gals in the park. I propose it would have been more effective to have at least one scene with Kariya and Aoi interacting on a more personal and companionable level, before their relationship deteriorated.
>>116850275 It wasn't so much that Natalia didn't know what she had to do. She basically failed the mission, and it was her responsibility to destroy the entire aircraft even if she dies in the process. That would have been the right thing to do. But based on what she was telling Kiritsugu, he knew that she was not able to do it. She was lying to him and herself, and she was willing to put everyone at right simply because she wanted to survive just so she could see Kiritsugu again. He was her weakness. He realized this and felt that it was now his responsibility to take out the plane and correct her mistake. If she was willing to take action and made an indication of it, he wouldn't have had to do anything.
An eloquently put description of the context. I doubt I made all those connections in such detail, but I understood the basics of that.
But nonetheless: >why didn't they do a waterlanding, break the window with a blow torch, and then blow up the plane?
It's ashame that such a key point in that very well written and thought out character development was hinged on such a plothole. It's ashame that one is required to overlook that to continue suspension of disbelief.
>>116850529 >It wasn't so much that Natalia didn't know what she had to do. She basically failed the mission, and it was her responsibility to destroy the entire aircraft even if she dies in the process.
Perhaps, but was this established in the plot beforehand?
Another thing I liked about ep18 is that they didn't use the same ending animation. They realized that it was a different song, and that was a choice to close the episode on a different tone compared to a normal episode, so they left the credits on a black screen. Good choice.
That's an interesting point. To add to that, I think that the scene with Shirley was directed in a way where it is EXTREMELY deceptive to the audience, for a stronger effect. When Shirley is talking to Kiritsugu about the power to change the world, and how she believes in him, based on what the audience knows from the rest of the series, it is assumed that because her words mirror his current goal so much, his father's research might actually be related to helping people or doing good. Instead the tragic twist is that his father had no intentions to help anyone, and his research was taboo experiments meant simply to extend his own lifespan.
In that sense, Shirley was wrong about the research and she paid for it with her life, but her words to Kiritsugu do seem to have a profound influence on him, since even today he is seeking for a true way to change the world for the better. It'll be interesting to see next week what other influences Kiritsugu had as he grew into the man he is today.
>>116850643 Was not a fan of the VN at all, but loved ufotable's F/Z so I'll give it a shot. Is Shirou supposed to be the main character? I saw the first episode and was convinced Archer and Rin were the protagonists.
>>116850643 You know seeing Kirei finally free to be himself really makes me wonder who his wife was and if she knew about his true nature. It's one thing to hide your personality from your father, a very different thing to your spouse.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I like Waver. I liked that he developed a lot from this arrogant kid who stole his teacher's artifact to prove a point about how his talent should be recognized... to lightening up a little and adopting some of Rider's characteristics. Waver really fit Rider like a glove.
>>116850584 It's not how Kerry thinks. He doesn't think about how to save everyone, only what sacrifices must be made to save the most. That's why the grails answer to his wish is to basically kill everything, because that's all he knows.
Establishing that fact would have been easy as hell, and would have clarified that scene greatly. This could, for example, have been used to emphasize the tension between Kariya and Aoi, as well as his single minded devotion to Sakura, and his delusional hope and fixated drive that everything will just work out somehow.
I suppose it could be a large task to ask of Ufotable, but the possibility of a leak could have been established more clearly.
The possibility of him being able to extract Natalia, AND kill all the bees, was just left too vague. It puts the viewer in a position where they have to resist asking the obvious questions, and is a distraction from the focus on Kiri's development.
There are two central battles in this episode - Rider vs Archer, and Saber vs Berserker. In these two battles, I think this episode more than ever shows the definitive difference between "kings" and "knights" as established by the series up to now. All the development of the Servants comes full circle here as we see the true meaning behind what it means to truly be a king.
A king is a leader, one who holds within himself the ultimate authority of his rule, and his pride commands that he treats all others as subjects or rivals, without compromise. A king is not just one of the guys. You cannot lead if you are trying to be equal to your subjects. You must stand above them and be seen and respected like a god.
Gilgamesh is a king, even as a Servant he is the king of kings. He takes no shit from Tokiomi, and never treated him as someone he respected or followed. He treats Kirei as a curious partner, but expects to be respected as he should be. The partnership works because Kirei recognizes what his Servant is, and treats him accordingly.
Iskandar is a king, and this is a point which took Waver a while to realize. At first he treated him as a mere Servant, and was annoyed by how they were not giving each other the full attention required to move forward in the Grail War. With time and experience he started to learn who Iskandar really is, and how he thinks. With newfound respect for his king, their relationship changed into one of true friendship and loyalty.
The fight between the two kings is the only battle in the entire series which is carried out on the exact terms and wishes of the Servants, not the masters. This is fitting because as kings they would have the right to pick their own battles, and decide how to carry them out. No one else is to interfere or to question it.
>>116850505 Killing Tokiomi was always one of Kariya's goals. It's spelled out in the novel, and it's been stated that the Matou have a tendency to put their grudges above all else, and that Kariya was no exception to that.
He did want to save Sakura, and he did have the delusional belief that by doing so, Aoi would fall for him, but he also definitely wanted to kill Tokiomi. He may be a black sheep of the Matou clan, but he's still a Matou.
>>116851309 This is a direct contrast to the sort of petty fights of honor fought between Saber and Lancer. It is no coincidence that in all those battles, they could never complete the battles on their own terms, because of interference from their Masters. This shows that they have the mindsets of mere knights, and will always be simply cogs in the larger machinery they are part of. Thus Saber is not a true king at all, but a knight who happened to be given the title of one. She will always want to be just one of the other guys.
This is also contrasted again in the episode itself, where Saber's battle with Berserker is that of two knights with differences, battling it out. The combat is more visceral, with much more dynamic camera work, and is very exciting to watch. But yet it is always clear that they are both fighting for the sake of their Masters here, and that is the only reason they are "allowed" to face each other. In any other situation previously, Berserker was always withdrawn because his Master doesn't actually want him fighting Saber.
The battle between Rider and Archer in comparison is less "exciting" to watch because it is not a melee battle between fighters, but instead pre-planned series of attacks with the conclusion long decided before the actions even began. Such is how kings operate. They plan strategies and carry them out, almost in a turn-based manner, and the one who has the ultimate advantage wins. Instead of being exciting to watch moment to moment, the overall battle felt more like a tapestry - a single beautiful large scale moment in time.
>The pilots discover a ton of wasps are flying around the cabin. >Shit! These (totally non-magical to our knowledge) wasps could distract the pilots from flying! We have to shut them in the cabin! >Natalia seals herself in cargo bay (this cancels the other plothole: how'd she inter herself, wasp-free, in the cockpit?) >proceed with plot as is >pilots discern something really fucked up is going on, assume terrorism or something >establish that pilots plan to land the plane in a dangerous place
In this situation, the viewer will still be aghast to believe that Kiri will actually go through with it; that some miraculous plot armor isn't going to come into play. He didn't kill Shirly, for example. So even though the twist is implied more heavily, it would still be surprising enough to most people. In my opinion
>>116851309 Yeah the battle between Rider and Archer is a conceptual battle. It is something they've both played out in their own minds over and over since episode 11. They're just turning that into reality to see if it ends the way they expect. It either works or it doesn't, and there's no turning back or making snap decisions during the fight. It's just something that has to be done and they want to see it through to the end.
>>116850643 Nasu: Typical Urobuchi... I really can't pull the wool over your eyes... I intended to take that to the grave with me, but I guess this 10-year anniversary is a good place to talk about it. Just like Urobuchi-san said, it's difficult to call the relationship between Shirou and Saber a relationship between a man and a woman. Saber has fought for a long time as the ruler of Britain, but then turned into a girl all of a sudden and fell in love with Shirou. It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it. But I really wanted to push it towards that sort of boy-meets-girl story. So as a last resort, I had Shirou continually say things to her like "But you're a girl," and "Girls aren't supposed to fight," in order to remind the users that "she is really a girl." It's like the author's actually the one trying to convince Saber that she's a girl... I feel like I could have written it a lot better now, but that was the best I could do at the time.
>>116851309 That's just your bias. While Iskander may have a point, there's nothing wrong with Saber's own ideals as well, and the original Fate/stay night illustrates that quite well. Saber's devotion to her country was admirable, and ultimately, Saber never once comes to the conclusion that her methods as a king were wrong.
The only thing anyone manages to convince her of is that, sometimes, no matter how hard you try and no matter how perfectly you do things, things just don't work out. She accepts that, while simultaneously realizing that it's okay to take pride in her life as king.
People tend to seriously take it the wrong way when they believe that Iskander is solely right while Saber is solely wrong. This isn't true. Iskander had his methods and beliefs and Saber had hers. Neither was absolutely correct, both were great kings in their own rights.
And ultimately, none of them were perfect. Gilgamesh destroy his kingdom. Iskander's kingdom split apart and fell to pieces the moment he perished. Saber was betrayed by her kingdom.
>He takes no shit from Tokiomi, and never treated him as someone he respected or followed.
This contradiction was addressed very briefly, I think mainly over the course of only a single line, and deserved more enunciation and demonstration. >But yet it is always clear that they are both fighting for the sake of their Masters here, and that is the only reason they are "allowed" to face each other. >The battle between Rider and Archer in comparison is less "exciting" to watch because it is not a melee battle between fighters
I agree with this premise up until these two arguments. Reaching
>>116851532 It's nothing odd. Everything was deliberate. The banquet of the kings was something that we decided on by Nasu since the beginning.
The relationship between the three kings is spelled out from the moment you see their stat screens:
>King Arthur: Lawful Good >Gilgamesh: Chaotic Good >Iskander: Neutral Good
It was a simple clash of ideologies, but it's not as if any one ideology is absolutely correct. Even Gilgamesh, who is undeniably a villain in both Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero, had what he believed to be the best intentions for humanity.
The room where Kiritsugu and Kirei have their battle is a very interesting design choice. Setting such a battle in a large open hall lit entirely by white florescent ceiling lights is a pretty brilliant decision because it makes the setting completely unique from anything in the series before.
Unlike any other battle in the series thus far, this is an indoors but open area, with no place to hide or run, and the entire room is brightly lit with white light. The distinct look it gives the battle makes it much more memorable and also presents a fair environment where there are no hidden tricks or advantages to either side. I really liked the set design for those reasons, even though it was clearly inspired by the test chamber in The Dark Knight. I didn't really find it out of place or strange.
I also really enjoyed how the fight was designed, and how well animated it was. One thing I disliked was the "flashback" moment when they explained the Origin Bullet again, in case audiences forgot about it. It felt poorly tacked on, and would probably have been better if they just handled it naturally instead.
Regarding the entire Grail vision sequence, I think it is pretty effective how they had call backs to all the set pieces throughout the series. The Grail was basically using Kiritsugu's memories and consciousness against him, and it was fitting that most of the visions are based on locations he was familiar with - scenes from throughout the series, including the flashback episodes, and generally locations where major events occurred.
These are places he is familiar with, and they are places the audience is also familiar with. Hence the argument the Grail makes against Kiritsugu is one which the audience can also make against him, which makes it a natural and valid challenge. It also justifies the development his character has undergone in the series, because he is judged based on actions and decisions he made which the audience are familiar with.
>>116851473 >Saber never once comes to the conclusion that her methods as a king were wrong. >Saber never thought that she was wrong as a king. She got BTFO'd by iskandar when they were talking about what is a true king. He kept saying that she was wrong and she couldn't say anything about it. Hell man, do you even know what her wish for the grail was? It was to redo the selection of the king so someone better than her would chosen. It's simple, arturia acted as a savior and not as a king. >>116851473 >People tend to seriously take it the wrong way when they believe that Iskander is solely right while Saber is solely wrong. This isn't true. Iskander had his methods and beliefs and Saber had hers. Neither was absolutely correct, both were great kings in their own rights.
>And ultimately, none of them were perfect. >Gilgamesh destroy his kingdom. >Iskander's kingdom split apart and fell to pieces the moment he perished. >Saber was betrayed by her kingdom.
Saber was way more wrong than iskandar and gil. Having your own country rebelling against you show that you are an utter failure as a leader. Even if their countries were destroyed, Gil and iskandar were followed and supported by their people, not the case with saber.
The fight between Kirei and Kiri was probably my favorite in the series. So intense. There was a minor flaw there that bugged me, in that both the characters just materialized in that setting, with no set up. Why was Archer absent?
>Regarding the entire Grail vision sequence, I think it is pretty effective how they had call backs to all the set pieces throughout the series. The Grail was basically using Kiritsugu's memories and consciousness against him, and it was fitting that most of the visions are based on locations he was familiar with - scenes from throughout the series, including the flashback episodes, and generally locations where major events occurred.
>These are places he is familiar with, and they are places the audience is also familiar with. Hence the argument the Grail makes against Kiritsugu is one which the audience can also make against him, which makes it a natural and valid challenge. It also justifies the development his character has undergone in the series, because he is judged based on actions and decisions he made which the audience are familiar with.
>>116851639 The climax holds true to the tone of the series in general, even though it leaves a bitter after taste in some ways. The Grail was always viewed with suspicion by several characters, and there was always a question about what sort of genie-in-a-bottle it was, or possibly even a monkey's paw. All these concerns turned out to be accurate in the previous episode, but it is only here that we finally see what that means in practical terms.
Seeing Kiritsugu watch his dreams and hopes turn into a total nightmare collapsing all around him is pretty haunting, and it becomes clear that there would be no real salvation for him, or his wife, or his daughter, or Saber, or anyone who actually put all their faith into a miracle cup which should not even exist. Their miseries filled the cup, and now they are forced to watch as the cup overfloweth.
It is somewhat fitting that the only people who did not really suffer were those who never wanted the Grail or any wish to begin with. Ryuunosuke found demented pleasure even in his own death. He had no desires or knowledge of the Grail War, nor did he care. Hence he lost nothing, except his own life - which had no value to him to begin with.
Kirei comes out of this a happier man, fully embracing his sadistic nature. He wanted to know what the truth of the world was - his answer was that it is suffering. As someone with no personal agenda other than watching the world burn, he and the Grail seem to see eye-to-eye.
Neither expected the Grail War to change their lives. They had no expectations of miracles making an impact on the world. Perhaps that is the ultimate "lesson" here, that man should be content with the world, and not expect the impossible to fix what is broken or flawed with humanity. It seems that after paying too heavy a price, even Kiritsugu himself realized that what he really wanted was not something practical for the world itself.
>>116851573 It's only natural that Iskander would react angrily to Saber's ideals, because they clashed so utterly with his own. He could not agree with them, just as she could not agree with his.
But just because he reacted with self-righteous anger doesn't necessarily mean he was entirely correct. Iskander's rule was inherently self-centered. He did only as he wished, and his greed was the primary foundation of his ideals. As a result, because his rule was so self-centered, he created a kingdom that could not survive without him.
This, of course, is fundamentally opposed to Saber's rule. Saber fought not for herself but for her people. Thus, she turned herself into a machine whose role was to act as king. She was strong, fair, and did everything that was necessary of her.
>>116851722 That was mainly because Saber was already plagued by self-doubt at the time. The entire reason she sought the Grail was because she believed that perhaps there was someone else more fit to become the king than her.
However, in Fate/stay night, she realizes that her wish is wrong. She, herself, did nothing wrong. She did her best, she did everything that was expected of her. She tried her hardest to protect her kingdom. It's just that, in the end, her kingdom ended up betraying her. Even so, she was able to lift her head up with pride, pride at the fact that she was a king. She had her doubts, but at the end of the Fate route, those doubts have completely vanished.
If Iskander was truly right, then she wouldn't have reached that conclusion. But she clearly doesn't believe that Iskander was right at all. She clearly believes that she did as well as she could have done, and that things simply didn't work out in the end. That's all.
Saber didn't concede to Iskander. She conceded to Shirou. And Shirou would never claim that Saber's ideals were wrong.
>>116851722 >Saber was way more wrong than iskandar and gil. Having your own country rebelling against you show that you are an utter failure as a leader. Even if their countries were destroyed, Gil and iskandar were followed and supported by their people, not the case with saber.
Iskandar's justification for driving his army into extinction and destroying his country was pretty sparse.
The judgment against Saber, also, was not absolute: that her primary flaw was that the people who served under her "felt ignored and misunderstood," but only because Saber was so perfect.
Although this >>116851722 was the argument Fate/Zero made, it is still open to interpretation in my mind.
>Fate/Zero >Rider: "THAT'S NOT HOW A KING SHOULD ACT! YOU'RE JUST A LITTLE GIRL PRETENDING TO BE A KING!!" >Saber: "...!!" >Gil: "LOLOLOLOLOLOL"
>Fate/stay night >Shirou: "You weren't wrong! It's just that things didn't work out, that's all!" >Saber: "Oh, okay. I guess I was a pretty alright king after all." >Gil: "LOLOLOLOLOLOL--oh wait I'm dead."
Ufotable sure is serious. Amazing production design, fluid animation, everything looks and sounds great. I'm pretty happy that they opened the series with two episodes worth of Rin too, she's my favorite character.
The action animation and direction is really impressive, even compared to Fate/Zero. It's even more impressive knowing that all of it here was done by internal Ufotable animators. Masayuki Kunihiro was probably responsible for a lot of the action in this episode, being their main in-house action and effects animator. The quality of the action and the timing used to create the quick motions is definitely one of the more impressive action scenes they've put out, and shows the result of experience building up over the years.
But what is clear is, Ufotable makes Fuyuki City a place you want to actually visit.
That, to me, isn't exactly "anger," because Rider isn't losing control of himself emotionally in anyway. The fact that, afterwards, his intention towards Saber was sympathetic and compassionate would confirm my interpretation.
>>116851803 Shirou's ideal while similar to Kiritsugu isn't the same, while Kerry abandoned everything including his dream of being a hero to achieve a miracle of no conflict. This story follows Shirou's journey into becoming a hero (similar to super hero, champion of justice that kind that simply goes around saving lives and attempts minimal to zero casualties), while not existing in a world half as idealistic as in such stories. Basically he's following Kerry's original path and dream as shown in the epilogue of F/Z.
That's why F/Z serves as the prequel of F/SN it thematically sets it up.
I can understand why people are being put off by UBW if their only connection to the Fate series is through the Fate/Zero anime. This a huge jump in writing and themes. I like both Zero and Stay Night, but for different reasons. Zero is more mature and imo better written, while Stay Night has better action and, depending on the route, better character development.
Dropping the show at this point isn't at bad of an idea. The weekly format is making the developments seem slower than they actually are, and this seems like a great series to watch in one go once it's over. Plus the pacing isn't that great due to it being based on a VN. Compare episode 5 of F/Z to episode 5 of UBW. In F/Z, we already knew all of the key players and have had some one on one time with all of them to get to know them better. The focus kept jumping between 7 different people, none of which were teenagers, which was a breath of fresh air compared to most anime nowadays. Episode 5 of UBW, and we only know about 3 masters so far, 2 of which are high schoolers, and one little girl. We're only spending time with two masters, one of which is a walking trope of sorts, and the other is mentally disturbed but already has a harem going despite this(this series was originally an eroge after all). Plus characters are acting in weird ways, and you have to have someone who read the VN explain to you why characters are doing what they're doing because "the VN explains all of this or the Fate route tells you this". It's a giant drag for anyone not familiar with the VN.
>>116851986 FSN has a better start so far. If I had no previous knowledge of this series I would have assumed Rin and Archer were the protagonists. I'm really liking the look of this show and how cheerful it is. "Good grief the Holy Grail War". What type of Archer uses two short swords?
>>116852238 What happened with Lancelot wasn't her fault.
Part of her development in Fate/stay night is about letting go of all that, and realizing that not everything was her fault.
Lancelot was seriously just an idiot nuisance. What kind of moron goes insane demanding that someone punish them? If you want to atone so bad, atone on your own. By trying to force Saber to punish him, he was essentially running away from his responsibilities, demanding that others take responsibility for him instead. It's selfish and incredibly annoying.
Even Urobuchi wonders if Lancelot's Origin wasn't "Being a Nuisance" or something.
>>116852322 Lancelot and Kariya suited each other perfectly in that regard. Both blamed others for everything that went wrong in their lives, both ran away from their issues and responsibilities, and both causes assloads of trouble for the people around them.
Lancelot tried to escape into madness while Kariya escaped into delusion.
Seriously, could a more problematic duo possibly exist anywhere else?
>>116852322 >What kind of moron goes insane demanding that someone punish them? If you want to atone so bad, atone on your own. By trying to force Saber to punish him, he was essentially running away from his responsibilities, demanding that others take responsibility for him instead. It's selfish and incredibly annoying.
I couldn't agree more. So what argument, then, if any, remains against Seibah's perfection in every way?
>Even Urobuchi wonders if Lancelot's Origin wasn't "Being a Nuisance" or something. lol
>>116851986 Episode 0 was fantastic. The Archer Vs. Lancer fight was incredible, you truly get this feeling of two superhuman warriors duking it out, it's on a level that few works can convey visually. And Archer was fighting Lancer with just one sword at first, too.
Also interesting how Shirou's face is never seen, and his first name is never even spoken. It's a nice way to create suspense for newcomers who don't know this guy and haven't caught on to the fact that he's actually the protagonist.
Also, interesting how Saber hasn't gotten close to injuring Archer in her surprise attack, which is supposed to be the moment that splits the Fate and UBW routes, because in the former, she nearly kills Archer, forcing him out of action, and in the latter, Shirou stops her from doing so.
>>116852497 The thing with Guinevere and Lancelot wasn't her fault.
But it's also true that her machine-like way of governing caused some minor discontent among her subjects. Mind you, it wasn't all that large, and if left alone, it probably wouldn't have been a big deal.
The problem was that Saber had a sister who hated her guts and was as powerful a Magus as Merlin who spawned a "son" using her stolen genetic samples and used that son the cause a coup while Saber was away.
If Saber had acted a little more human, Mordred might not have had the opening he needed to fuck up the kingdom. But, welp, shit happened. Tough luck.
It's not as if Saber herself did anything wrong, but you can't actually say that she didn't contribute to the downfall of her kingdom in some way either. Strictly speaking, all of the kings from across the Fate franchise were in some way or form partially responsible for their kingdoms' downfalls.
>>116852574 >Strictly speaking, all of the kings from across the Fate franchise were in some way or form partially responsible for their kingdoms' downfalls.
An unavoidable contradiction, unless the message is that all of them are wrong (which it isn't). In the end, regardless of intentions, it seems like the argument lies in favor of Gil, Kirei, and the Grail: Life is suffering, humans are evil, and to try and change this is folly.
>>116852497 Saber had ain implicit pact with the country. Many knights couldn't really accept the young girl knight as a king so the idea was that the only way for her to be was to be a living embodyment of knighthood, a perfect king. Which she was. Unfortunately people were scared of this for any kind of reason, mostly because she was so perfect that she actually stopped being a human, this leading to the whole "King Arthur does not understand her followers". Which we know wasn't the case, she loved the people far more than the country itself and it's exactly because she knew something was not right that didn't punish Lancelot. Though luck though, because >I wanted you to punish me but since you didn't for whatever reason you are at fault for my madness Which really never really clicked with me. How could anyone ask even more from her at that point is absurd. In the end, maybe exactly because she believed in knighthood's valors too much, she was betrayed by politics and died. The point of fate is exactly realizing she didn't do anything wrong and had to be proud, letting it go. Iskandar in Zero says "You saved your people but you never lead them" but I don't agree, at all. She was just caught in a situation she could never come outside as a victor. Different kings for different times and different peoples.
>>116852065 >Compare episode 5 of F/Z to episode 5 of UBW. In F/Z, we already knew all of the key players and have had some one on one time with all of them to get to know them better. The focus kept jumping between 7 different people, none of which were teenagers, which was a breath of fresh air compared to most anime nowadays. Episode 5 of UBW, and we only know about 3 masters so far, 2 of which are high schoolers, and one little girl. We're only spending time with two masters, one of which is a walking trope of sorts, and the other is mentally disturbed but already has a harem going despite this This whole snip-it is just blatant bias to make Zero look good and shit on FSN. Kiritsugu had more of a harem than Shirou did by this point, Waver was also a teenager who's even more immature than any other master in the series, and insulting Rin for being a "walking trope" when her character is already more fleshed out than anyone in Zero's is completely idiotic. FSN not revealing the whole cast right away is one of the things that actually made it better than Zero because it added a level of mystery to the setting that Zero completely lacks, where in Zero you learn the identity of every servant but Berserker upon first meeting them.
>>116852749 Fuck it I would say every master in F/SN is more competent than the Fate/Zero ones >Shinji: fuck, better power up my Servant and hide myself, maybe get Rin on my side too >Rin: better take some jewels with me just in case >Shiro: better train my body and magic, and see how long this alliance with Rin lasts >Kuzuki: I'm doing the fighting
Saber couldn't exactly do anything about Lancelot and Gwen falling in love. The problem was when the affair was found out and, due to a number of political reasons, Gwen had to be executed. Saber was tremendously tormented by this, caught between her personal feelings and her duties as king. Lancelot ended up killing a bunch of the Knights of the Round Table attempting to save Gwen.
Ultimately, Saber ended up forgiving Lancelot for everything (which, in itself, became a heavy curse for him), but was forced to banish him from the kingdom. I'm sure he would have preferred to have been executed, considering his personality.
Frankly, Gawain's more to blame than Saber is here. Lancelot desperately wanted to fight for Saber during the Battle of Camlann, but Gawain was so pissed off about the whole "killing our dudes" thing that he didn't let Lancelot fight. Ultimately, this was partially the reason Saber ended up dying and Camelot fell to ruins.
When Lance found out what happened to Saber, he pretty much went completely insane. And that madness ended up causing him to blame Saber. It's literally the logic of a crazy person.
So how can Saber be at all criticized for her people being evil, shitty, childish assholes, who she did everything for?
It's quite like saying of Jesus: Jewdas sold you out, and you let that happen and didn't see it coming, so you're less godly than Brigand Leader Mathias, who effectively motivated and unified his band of murderers through greed and bloodlust, but who then was exterminated by the roman army.
>>116852746 That isn't exactly what he meant. It all boils down to his different vision of what a king his. For Saber, a king is he who sacrifices for the people. For Gilgamesh, he is the one that decides and applies the law. For Iskandar a king is a very charismatic guy that shares his dream to people, makes them acknowledge him and follow along. Who doesn't agree and who tries to stop him will be destroyed. He valued a king that acted as a beacon for the people, so who watched could say "I really want to be like my king". Which is why he couldn't acknowledge Saber (in the beginning, let's remind he basically apologizes later) because humans don't want to be martyrs. I personally don't agree with the "He is right, she is wrong" debate that came after the dialogue, those three kings had views completely different on the world. Also, we could also argue that Saber incarned knighthood, every knight should've aspired to be like her but evidently was too hard to bear.
>>116852800 In a way, you can't entirely hate Lancelot.
His hatred for his king was fueled entirely by his love for her. He hated himself for betraying her and despised himself for leading to her downfall. His madness caused him to direct his hatred towards his beloved king, but it was ultimately a madness caused by love.
I swear to god, this guy really is a fucking nuisance.
Thought it was a good episode. The additional scenes were nice too and established Ilya as a threat on her own that isn't easy to take out. Really enjoyed how the demonstrated Berserker's speed, though I would have liked to see a bit more in the way of the acrobatic fighting since that was cool to see.
I do find myself hoping we get more of these extra scenes with Kotomine since I do like his character and would enjoy seeing more of him.
It was annoying seeing Shirou being useless, but that's to be expected at this point. All the stuff between Rin and Ilya did a good job of showing just how out of his league he is in comparison to the others. It's been so long I can't quite recall the reason for him suddenly coughing up blood, but I think I have a guess so we'll see.
I can see the point about comparing it to Zero in terms of the battles, but then pretty much everyone involved in that was mostly competent and knew what they were in for with some exceptions. Based on the Masters seen thus far that isn't exactly the case as none of them are fully trained mages except maybe Ilya. This Grail War is actually sort of weird in that aspect, though that could be down to it being the first written in the series.
>>116853143 >To say that Rider didn't intend to assert the superiority of his doctrine over Saber's is wrong. I never wanted to say that. Rider did what he does: he conquered the discussion and let no attacks pass through. What I wanted to say is that I don't agree with those that were charmed by his words like it's the absolute truth and begun the "Saber a shit king" farce.
>>116853025 Different stories written in different ways, I'm glad Zero was not a rehash but something entirely different. And come on, Stay Night has some great scenes in all the routes, and I'm not only talking of combats.
>>116853143 If she was less perfect (in her followers' eyes), a lot of strife could have been avoided. Lancelot might not have been driven insane by his love and guilt towards her, and Morded's obsession with receiving her approval might not have been so severely problematic.
>>116853321 You do realize it takes "80 hours" only because there's text animations, voice overs and action sequences? It's not that long and I don't see it as wasteful filler. Even the famous epic cooking scenes are really just part of shirou's routine and last few minutes each. But I guess it happens when someone reads the novels and then just follows threads on 4chan for seven years talking only by memories becoming ever fainter. I'm rereading it right now and it's nowhere as bad as people claim, it's actually very good. Also, the fate route is as good as the others.
>>116853283 Rin "I'll kill you!" Shirou "Bring it bitch!" -later- Rin "I will kill you in 3 secs (if you don't comply to my request and hand me the command seals that is!)" Shirou "No U" -later- Shirou "So, continue?" Rin "Maybe not..." This is why Shirou will not die, even if he is killed (or not)
>>116853428 One day anon you will realize as well that pitying people because they don't have the same hopinion as you only makes you more similar to Shinji than anything else. Are you sure you are ok with that?
>>116853481 I'm totally lying about what I like when I talk to anonymous people over the internet, anon, really. The only problem with the fate route is that too many days are spent training with saber, but it puts down a lot of basic framework on ideals and shit. I'm not going to argue it's masterful narrative but it's nowhere near as shit as people imply.
If world building means literally tens of thousands of lines of dialogue pointing out inane shit, repeating itself over and over, and chock full of generic SOL scenes then yes, F/SN has amazing world building. Perhaps the greatest ever.
Maybe the bandwagon effect is in play. Aside from the protag being an asshole, the convoluted translation and long winded writing were not fun, at all, to wade through. The plot had a small handful of bright points, yes.
>>116853588 Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works is better than Fate/Zero at making its individual magical styles visually distinct. Magic fighting wasn't all that prominent in Fate/Zero, where the servants did much more one-on-one fighting and the masters spent most of their time in hiding. The two masters who did see a lot of combat were physical/weapons-based guys who used magic as a sort of invisible enhancer. Other than that, only a couple of styles were shown off, and I didn't get much of a sense of how they worked. (I recall being fond of Kayneth's fighting mercury blob, though.) This time, I have a good sense of how Rin's, Shirou's, and Ilya's magic styles work, not only technically but tactically, without any bulky exposition. Rin corners people with laser shots to use pre-prepared blasts of big magic, Shirou strengthens whatever he has around him at the moment, and Ilya sends out drones to minimize what she actually has to do. Otherwise, this episode was visually impressive in a subtle way. It's the clearest indication so far that director Takahiro Miura knows how to direct non-action scenes, mostly through emotionally resonant compositions and mixing up the lighting used between locations. The servant battle was fun, and for as much as Shirou's improved, I'm still automatically a fan of any scene where he's threatened with injury. I hope we get more of this servant than the VN gave us for this route.
>>116853621 It's a buzzword, as in it has lost any value. Many people seem to imply that a story is mature when it abandons childish things. By this definition, something dark, violent, cynical is by definition mature, while colorful and more relaxed stories like shounen are just shit pandering for otaku.
Oh by the way, don't make them too dark or they become Edgy, which is another word. But we shouldn't use it or we'll start discussing if Shiki can kill Uchiha Madara. And I don't mean standard Uchiha.
>>116853588 >not a haremshit Kiritsugu has more of a harem then Shirou >not a shounenshit How is FSN shounen shit and Zero not shounenshit when they are both action series? >deals with mature elements So does FSN, and it does a better job with the themes that Zero fails at truly working with >follows the war through the perspective of other masters And the story suffers for it since most of Zero's cast ends up much less developed than FSN's cast. >conveys everything about the war in much better and simpler ways It barely scratches the surface of the war compared to FSN.
>>116853588 >conveys everything about the war in much better and simpler ways This is so wrong it's not even funny. Didn't you see the frodo topics? >What was the black mud? >Why didn't kerry choose another wish? >What the fuck is Angry Manjew? >Wait, how can there be a sequel if kiritsugu destroyed the grail? >What the fuck was the black thin in the grail that destroyed the city? >Why didn't kotomine kill Kiritsugu in the fire? >Why did kiritsugu abandon Ilya?
>>116853680 >Kerrytugu fucks a woman and uses her >harem
>How is FSN shounen shit and Zero not shounenshit when they are both action series? Because Zero doesn't have a shounenshit MC like Shirou.
>So does FSN, and it does a better job with the themes that Zero fails at truly working with F/SN was edgy for the sake of being edgy.
>And the story suffers for it since most of Zero's cast ends up much less developed than FSN's cast. No, it doesn't. Everyone gets enough development yet through the 80 hour VN, the only shit Caster gets is "MUH SOUICHIROU-SAMA~~~", Lancer just dies and Berserker screams like a retard.
>It barely scratches the surface of the war compared to FSN. No.
>>116853738 >>Why didn't Kerry choose another wish? >>Wait, how can there be a sequel if kiritsugu destroyed the grail? >>What the fuck was the black thin in the grail that destroyed the city? >>Why didn't kotomine kill Kiritsugu in the fire? >>Why did kiritsugu abandon Ilya? These are just people being fucking retarded, the two or so questions about the Grail cancer are actually valid if we're talking about F/Z
On the other hand I also don't agree with the guy you're replying to, he's a fuckhead too
>>116853782 It's largely the fault of the source material since that pretty much sticks to Shirou for the most part since it's a VN, while Zero was a novel series and thus allowed for multiple points of view that could interchange.
Unlimited Blade Works is the best written of the plotlines. Fate is waifu simulation and Heaven's Fefel is a generic hentai plot.
>>116853833 It happens once. Once. Shirou gets a major injury from berserker in the Fate and Heaven's feel route and regenerates because of avalon. I don't see the problem: the regenerative powers of the noble phantasm are a key point of shirou and your post only shows how little you do remember of the novel, if you ever read it instead of just skimming through pages.
By the way, Kiritsugu did the same shit in Zero since kirei shamed his heart and a second after he stood up. I suppose that's shit too. >Magical users, using magic
>>116853773 Shirou only has at best two girls that like him in every route. If Shirou has a harem, Kerry has a harem.
>Because Zero doesn't have a shounenshit MC like Shirou. Yes it does.
>F/SN was edgy for the sake of being edgy. And Zero wasn't with all the antics caster and his master did? Also nice strawman. This and combined with your latter responses make it pretty obvious you've never read the VN.
>>116852430 It doesn't say anything about any board's quality to just copypaste a bunch of reviews all at the same time, it's not like these were all written within minutes of each other. /a/ has debates about F/Z and F/SN all the time.
>>116853869 You were warned multiple times that all this thread is was copypasta spamming from neogaf. You only have yourself to blame for thinking such retards were actually seriously trying to discuss the series.
>>116853680 >Kiritsugu has more of a harem then Shirou Do you know what harem mean? Kiritsugu is a grown man a wife and a daughter.
>How is FSN shounen shit and Zero not shounenshit when they are both action series? Action # Shounen FSN, especially Fate & UBW, is filled with shounen tropes everywhere, it's undeniable. FZ is a seinen.
>So does FSN, and it does a better job with the themes that Zero fails at truly working with Just no. Maybe Kotomine's arc in HF but that's all.
>And the story suffers for it since most of Zero's cast ends up much less developed than FSN's cast Who even gets developement in FSN other than Shirou and his two girls? And Saber's "deveopement" was so shitty I wish it never happened.
>It barely scratches the surface of the war compared to FSN. It did a pretty damn good job of foreshadowing / connecting all the routes in FSN in a coherent manner despite being shorter than the shortest FSN route in length.
>>116853782 There are things you can't fundamentally change about Fate/Stay Night. Fate/Zero is a dark tragedy with adult characters in a situation they have long prepared for. Fate/Stay Night is about a bunch of high school kids with magic powers with a lot more comedy and sexual humor. Those are things inherent in the original source, and it's silly to pretend that Fate/Zero is more popular that Fate itself as an overall franchise, because it's not. There are tons of Fate/Stay Night fans who have no interest in seeing the material dramatically changed into something totally different.
I think Ufotable is a very talented studio, but they're also one which knows the importance of making stuff which is satisfying to the core audience first and foremost. A good example would be their work on the Kara no Kyoukai movies. They have great production values and all the things about Ufotable which we like in Fate/Zero, but the story and characters were still slavishly faithful to the source material - including all the worst things about Nasu's writing. That's more than enough reason for me to be hesitant about Fate/Stay Night.
>>116853782 Before FZ anime was a thing, FZ itself was always regarded as being superior even by VNfags. It's only after the anime came out people wanted to shit on it because it's popular and people had hate boner for Urobutcher after Madoka.
what will I embrace in the shadow of desire drowning in pain, abandoning my ideals this feels almost like it’s a different world, but it’s the truth I’ll protect you with these dirtied hands while watching the star I couldn’t grasp now I’ll brandish my dream like a flash of lightning in the dark as if to cast light upon our entwining lives I believe the place I’ll reach with the strength I chose to be paradise a bond called hope connects us to tomorrow let’s overcome our unseen sadness the prayers that well up simply wait for dawn without fearing they’ll be diminished
I've been wondering for a while now but does Sakura have any likeable traits at all? I can see why people like Saber, waifu bait, Rin ,generic tsundere, IIya, loli, Rider, slutty bitch but Sakura? Nothing hits me. it's like her fanbase just likes her for holding it together from her past. a fanbase built on pity,truly pathetic
>>116854067 >Kiritsugu is a grown man a wife and a daughter And he also has a lover on the side. Shirou only has Sakura who likes him and either Rin or Saber who eventually fall in love with him depending on the route. Kirtsugu has just as much if not more of a harem than Shirou, especially since he's actually getting together with both of his women.
>FSN, especially Fate & UBW, is filled with shounen tropes everywhere, it's undeniable. FZ is a seinen. And what tropes are these that FSN has that FZ doesn't then?
>Just no. Maybe Kotomine's arc in HF but that's all. You have no idea what the themes of FSN are if you're mentioning Kotomine's arc of all people over Shirou.
>Who even gets developement in FSN other than Shirou and his two girls? Pretty much every important character but Rider, Lancer, and Kuzuki. And even then they're still better developed than Zero Assassin, Ryunosuke, or Tokiomi.
>And Saber's "deveopement" was so shitty I wish it never happened. And yet she's still an infinitely better character in FSN than Zero, where her character in Zero can't even go anywhere and is just a subset of who she is in FSN.
Nasu is great at coming up with cool ideas for characters and set pieces, but he's terrible at actually writing a story.
This is why F/SN is basically a series of really cool moments separated by painfully long stretches of tedious shit that add nothing to the experience. You know this to be true.
Zero on the other hand, despite it's considerable flaws, is much more succinct. That's because Nasu was simply the ideas man for that one, and let Urobuchi work on the writing. Urobuchi is overrated himself, but he does have a better understanding of how to write a compelling plot arc than most Japanese writers.
>>116854067 >FSN, especially Fate & UBW, is filled with shounen tropes everywhere, it's undeniable. FZ is a seinen. Shounen and seinen are fucking demographics, you can't just pull arbitrary definitions for them out of your enormous ass, especially when you're not even specifying what those "tropes" are! I don't understand how you can have possibly looked at this post and thought you were making a good point.
Can someone explain to me the appeal to this franchise? I have only seen the FSN anime and the UBW film. I really feel like i'm missing something because with the material mentioned before i could not see a single good factor in this series, characters have paper thin personalities, the fights are boring and the story from what i remember is sort of a cliché with no real development.
It's all the fun in the VNs? And if it is, what is the fun part exactly? The story?
>>116854352 >painfully long stretches of tedious shit that add nothing to the experience But there's character development and lore building and interesting discussions on the events that have happened. I liked the downtime between fights, not everything has to be action go go. It's not like Zero didn't have similar things on a smaller scale, the stuff with Waver and Rider dicking around in town and being homo at each other wasn't substantially different from the SoL scenes in FSN.
>>116854417 The only good thing to come out of this awful franchise is Fate/Zero and you should check out the anime adaptation of that ASAP. Fate/Stay Night the retarded older brother. It's literally an adaption of a porn game.
Sure, but F/Z knew when to stop with the SOL scenes. There were just enough to get you invested in the characters, but not enough to make you tired of them. It's not an exaggeration to say that there are at least 100 times more SOL/downtime scenes in F/SN, and to make matters worse, they are all extremely similar. At least there was some variety in the F/Z ones.
Seriously though, I'm not telling you what to like. It's just how I feel about them.
>>116854553 Fate is more popular because it has a more interesting concept and is an objectively superior product when you look at the art and special effects of the VN. It's also a professional work while Tsukihime is just a doujin work. Though I believe Tsukihime is still one of the most successful doujin works ever made, though I'm sure someone from /jp/ would know more about that.
>>116855089 Sakura, no, all person are what their past made them. That's the point, freeing her from the chains so that she can finally build a life of her own. I liked her arc and what her role in the story was.
>>116855180 The role of a plot device? Because Sakura never does anything that could help Shirou in any of the other routes and in her own she goes insane and requires sacrificing everything to save her.
>>116854300 Just stop. You don't know what harem means. Notice how you're literally the only person who insists that Kiritsugu has a harem.
FSN's protag doesn't get power up and fight on level of Servants for example.
I hope you don't actually imply "I want to be a super hero" Shirou is mature. Before you mention Kiritsugu, I dislike him and his "super hero" schtick too, fortunately FZ wasn't all about him so it's tolerable. FSN, unfortunately, is all about Shirou.
Rider? Lancer? Development? You must be kidding me. Ryonosuke's moment of realization before his death is better done than Rider's entire character and I'm not even exaggerating.
Also, it's because Saber's development is on FSN already, they cannot do much with her in the prequel, otherwise there would be contradiction.
>>116855251 >Tell me something you liked about her >I said I liked her role in the story >B-but she never helps and just goes insane Yes, and? I liked the character and wanted to help her escape from this shitty fate that was imposed upon her. Also >The role of a plot device Every single character, every event, every piece of lore is "plot convenience" because Nasu wanted the story to go in a specific direction. Let's drop the retarded terminology.
>>116854352 >This is why F/SN is basically a series of really cool moments separated by painfully long stretches of tedious shit that add nothing to the experience. You know this to be true. This. When looking back at FSN, some people really love to exclusively remember the high points only and overlook the rest.
>>116854352 Most people tend to forget that Heaven's feel was 60% cooking, fate route suffered from it too. Though Heaven's feel is pretty much, a lot of stuff happens at the start and at the end with a whole lot of nothing in the middle. day 8 and on is really when the story starts picking up for it.
Heaven's feel also had penis worms and incest rape (pandering), I know we were supposed to be horrified, but the entire thing was just too funny. Sakura's back story as a whole almost felt like it was trying too hard to make us feel sorry for her.
Hell the only route that seemed to have decent pacing was UBW.
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