Let's have a good discussion about pre-Atomu anime. Ofuji, Masaoka, Murata, Seo, maybe early Tezuka.
Favourite film? Story, animation, sound work, colour usage?
Always more interesting than his TV series where he had to appeal to American stations (Jungle Taitei).
Only skimmed through this for now, but I will have to watch it later when I encode it.
How many old anime are worth watching? I've seen a few really old stuff, and they weren't that good. The oldest anime I've enjoyed was the original gegege no kitaro. Is there anything worth watching just for historical interest?
For historical interest? All the ones mentioned in the OP. Murata pumped out a lot of stuff and some of it is not that good though.
Most pre-war movies are between 1 minute and 15 minutes, most of the better ones maybe between 10 and 15, but either way none is too time-consuming.
There are DVDs of Oofuji and Masaoka works (not subbed, but I doubt there is a lot of dialogue in there), I don't think they have gotten encoded though.
For now you can check Japanese Anime Classic Collection, which is mostly mediocre (but still interesting and has a few gems). It's on BakaBT, but being re-encoded and uploaded (http://anonymemoose.blogspot.ca/2014/09/japanese-anime-classic-collection.html)
And there is also The Roots of Japanese Anime Until the End of WWII (http://anonymemoose.blogspot.ca/2014/09/the-roots-of-japanese-anime-until-end.html). The Oofuji works in this one are not very well-chosen IMO, but other than that all of it is good and very interesting.
I recommend watching at least a bit of Japanese Anime Classic Collection because even if it is not exceptional, it provides context for how animation was like at the time in Japan, and when you see Masaoka, Oofuji and Seo works (the Momotarou propaganda ones anyway) you will have a better perspective and should be impressed by the techniques showcased that put them far above their peers.
I just watched the Tengu hunt with Heibei (by Oofuji) and it blew my mind.
It's honestly really hard to get into pre-70's anime, as Japanese animation was decades behind the west. Even 40's Superman blew most anime out of the water in terms of quality until the early 80's, when Japan started to git gud. That said, I enjoy Osomatsu-Kun from 1966, but that's still a few years ahead of what you want to discuss, so I apologize. I'm sure there are some hidden gems, but I don't know about any unfortunately.
I'm not sure it was that far behind, but maybe 10-20 years. It's hard to compare because of differences in budget, culture and the fact that a ton of Japanese animation was damaged or lost in various events. Even some episodes of Tetsuwan Atom were lost, and Tetsuwan Atom is a big deal.
Yeah, true. I don't doubt the talent was there, and Superman did have a pretty big budget which most Japanese cartoons often lacked. That and of course the fact that Japan was in war with much of the west, so even if they wanted to do great animation it would be difficult until long after the war.
I know this is 1966, but Mahou Tsukai Sally is being subbed by The Skaro Hunting Society, and I'm really enjoying it.
It's the first magical girl anime and arguably the first shoujo anime as well.
>Superman did have a pretty big budget which most Japanese cartoons often lacked
That's an understatement. American cartoons and Japanese anime have had their roles swapped between then and now I guess you could say. Now Americans don't care and mostly produce cheap shit for kids that lasts forever (similar to the first TV anime), they never moved forwards and the animation and art quality only got worse. Tezuka had to appeal to them to get funding for Atom (first TV anime) and Jungle Taitei (first full colour TV anime), forced to make these series episodic and greatly reduce violence to appeal. Because Japan had no interest in animation (at least TV animation).
It's probably because of Tezuka's stubbornness and taking American dick up his arse for a few years that Japan eventually caught up after realizing that it was a viable export.
Only episodes 1-6 and 42-48, and at a snail's pace. I mean I appreciate TSHS, but they're better off doing movies and stuff like that than full series at that pace.
What I want more than anything is good raws for the old series, even Atom didn't have a full encode 'til maybe a month ago, and it's a crappy one. Tetsujin also has a crappy encode, and then nothing. No 8Man, no Ookami Shounen Ken, not even Jungle Taitei (which I thought was popular).
So I'm doing them now, and then maybe someone will consider subbing them (or a few).
I refuse to believe that there are people who were born around 1950's that browse /a/ so my question is, how did you get into watching this sort of old stuff? Did you just tell yourself one day "Alright, I'm gonna watch some old shit"?
>Look at me, I watch anime no one else does, I am incredibly special and should receive praise for doing so.
Why not just watch anime for enjoyment instead of leveling up on an anonymous image board?
When I was a kid living in glorious Spain, they aired a lot of quirky, obscure anime from the 70's and 80's on TV. I took a liking to them and the interest has stayed with me until this day. I also had a ton of VHS's of old American cartoons too, which only made me more fascinated in vintage animation.
>Did you just tell yourself one day "Alright, I'm gonna watch some old shit"?
I'm 21 and this is exactly what I did. I like to era hop, it gives you perspective. Also, it's not for epeen, I usually end up enjoyoing old stuff I watch because I don't just jump into it as soon as I hear about it. I sort of put it on the backburner and eventually get around to it.
I mean I started watching anime because I like stories, but it's given me an appreciation for so many other things now, animation, music, voice acting, direction etc.
I just pir- bought the complete 40's Superman animation collection and holy penis, it was like the animators had some kind of obsession to keep the characters moving in an unique way every single moment. It is no small wonder the japanese copied the shit out of americans during their development engineering process.
Also, being produced during the bloody wartime made it possible to portray things rarely seen nowadays in the medium outside certain artistic shit.
This one's 1943, it was apparently quite heavily criticized because it wasn't wartime propaganda
I gotta say I feel a little saddened when I watch some of these old pieces. Osamu Tezuka was obviously architect of the modern anime industry, but he also destroyed a lot with his cheap mass produced animation.
For instance, not even the most expensive anime these days use full animation or bother with proper mouth movements. On the contrary, these cost cutting measures have been so internalized into the Japanese animation style that they go out of their way to simulate these flaws when they make 3D animation. That's really sad.
On the other hand, one could say that without limited animation being the norm we might not have seen Yoshinori Kanada coming up with his distinctive style of animation that inspired generations of animators. I'm quite impressed that the Japanese animators managed to come up with various interesting ways of depicting motion under the constraints of limited animation.
What? That's not Tezuka's fault. Did you even watch the 60s TV series? They all look like shit too. Atom voices aren't even synced properly with the animation (let alone given realistic movement). Check the 8 Man opening on YouTube (the JP one), it looks like a kid drew it in some places.
Many other films made at that time also had terrible animation. Kumo to Tulip was a masterpiece. Masaoka had his work playing in theatres, which was unusual for that time.
Comparing a film masterpiece to TV series is just stupid. And yeah, it clearly had *some* propaganda elements with the spider being a black American bad guy and such (at least as far as I've read from analysis since I haven't seen it yet).
I looked up what was available and picked a few movies. My main drive was curiosity about the early days of anime but I'd say 60s movies are easier to appreciate than 60s TV-series.
>it clearly had *some* propaganda elements with the spider being a black American bad guy and such (at least as far as I've read from analysis since I haven't seen it yet).
Sounds like analysis made by a paranoid retard
I want to add, just download one early episode of Tetsuwan Atom and watch it a bit, most of them have horrid movements, horrid hands and quality issues in some places.
This gif is how it looks on video (it's episode 56 which aired in theatres in colour).
Why else would the spider look like a black person? It's clearly supposed to be a black American vs. the Japanese ladybug.
It's just not as blatant as shit like the Momotarou films.
I looked it up in Wikipedia and they were fighting over the extent of it. This turned up:
>Contradictive to the citation: Matlin (page 121) actually states:".Rotoscoping was used to a degree, but the animators had to rely on their sense of proportion and perspective
So apparently they rotoscoped the general outlines and movements of the characters but still remembered to complete the job with finished cartoon look unlike in Aku no Hana.
Combined with >>114402941 it is painfully obvious that >>114402178 has absolutely no idea what he was talking about.
This reminds me of how Ashita no Joe is a great example of good animation with some nifty tricks from early 70's Japan. A lot of Osamu Dezaki's style still exists in modern anime, and with good reason.
>So apparently they rotoscoped the general outlines and movements of the characters but still remembered to complete the job with finished cartoon look unlike in Aku no Hana.
Because those two are totally comparable. It's like your only exposure to rotoscoping is AnH.
>It's like your only exposure to rotoscoping is AnH.
Actually it is. I am so sorry. Aside from Aku no Hana and those Superman shorts I just downloaded I have never seen rotoscoping in action.
He may simply be a scapegoat, but Tezuka is often blamed for establishing a no budget culture in the Japanese animation industry, there's even a name for, "Tezuka's Curse". Realistically speaking though, if it weren't for the low budgets we wouldn't have much of an anime industry today.
Tezuka just did what he had to do at the time in order to get his work out on TV. It's unfortunate that it resulted in bad work conditions for animators, but I think for TV, animation quality is pretty good otherwise compared to the trash Americans put out today. Wish they'd swap budgets, but if the Japanese want to make better anime, they need a new Tezuka to go out and get shit done, or they need investors to inject more money into it (which is very unlikely to happen). Without Tezuka I doubt it would be any better today.
I very much doubt that anyone would have used a black person as the face of America back in the forties, Especially the Japanese who liked to frame their entire military campaign as a struggle against the white imperialist.
Without significantly lower prices than American studios it's unlikely Japanese animation would have avoided the rapid decline of mass market film production that occurred pretty much everywhere outside of the US after the war. Small upside there I think
They didn't avoid it, Tezuka had to get funding from American TV stations for his series in the 60s, that's quite a bit after the war and he had to change the whole story of Jungle Taitei to not have a story (Americans wanted episodic shows) and no violence or death, no aging characters, etc.
I gotta say I agree that it is pretty stereotypical African-American from the slave era.
On a semi-related note, I noticed something in the short that I've seen a lot in anime and manga, most notably Doraemon. That is, when the spider closes his eyes, the white of his eyes remain, while the pupil itself closes. I guess it's like that because they needed the eyes to be visible at all times when the rest of his face is black, but it makes me wonder when they started doing this in anime and manga.