So /x/ I was simply wondering how we dream of people we've

I tend to get annoyed at my dreams if they include people I HAVE met. Dreams are fictions, to every waking knowledge I have ever managed, and I detest authoring fictions about people I know.

>>19600476
Why do you HAVE to meet them? Please explain further.

>>19600483
Sorry just realised you were talking about people you have met.

>>19600473
1. is more accurate, but they don't have to be a composite. If you can imagine a completely original person, I don't see a reason why wouldn't your subconscious mind able to do the same.

>>19600473

We don't dream of people we've never seen, they're not even a composite of different individuals, the subconscious can't do that without the help of the selfconscious, you just saw them somewhere, in the street or on tv.

>>19600795
In my weard most abstract dream I see someone that looks like me talking about me. And in really off dreams I hear someone flatlinnings trying o get in and failing. Others I hear music playing like video game music while I travel through it. Like the fucking digimon world. Super fun 10\10 would suggest.

>>19600473
Also of you buy apple camera and plug it in its like an eye that you can travel through just lay down in front of it relax and doze in to sleep. Its weard because normally who ever is their kills themself . so stupid.

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>>19600473
I think our brain just generates people like a random character generator, or something like pic related where it's kind of an average of all people. We see all these features of people throughout our lives and our brains and imagine new people based off of that

>>19600795
Why would this be the case? Subconscious can be as creative as it can get, there is absolutely zero reason why it should be limited in this way.

>>19601161

I know how the subconscious works in that matter, i got into hypnosis when i was 16 and it's been 8 years, of which i've dedicated 6 to just self-hypnosis, interact with myself, develope new techniques, different approaches..etc

To put it simple, imagine your subconscious as an autistic version of yourself that controls the levers of various garbage tanks classified by themes, you (selfconscious) collect that garbage and the subconscious uses it to communicate with you pulling the correspondent lever and leting that garbage fall. The garbage is imagery.

The subconscious doesn't understand any channel other than the visual, that means anything you experience in dreams other than visual imagery comes from your memory (voices, noises, kinestesic sensations, tastes), your subconscious can't create those nor touch or modify the garbage itself, it only pulls levers.

>>19601206
I could listen to original music in my dreams before. Sure, on the most basic level, I've heard the individual instruments before, or even the tones. But it's no different than, say, composing a face from different facial features. I can't create something out of nothing, like inventing a new color. But I can definitely create something original based on my previous experiences.

>>19601244

Those arguments aren't valid, since you wouldn't remember selfconsciously every music you have listened, every face you have seen or every place you have been.

The only way for the subconscious to show you something you haven't seen in real life is if you have selfconsciously created it beforehand, wether it's a fake person made of parts of others or an imaginary creature.

>>19601261
Well, your arguments aren't valid as well based on your own criteria. I create music for fun and I know when it's original and when it's not. There are multiple search engines dedicated to finding a piece based on melody or rhytm. Maybe this applies to you, but certainly not me.

>>19601273

My criteria as a human when refering to the subconscious, not as an individual. Your subconscious can't create original content, you created that sound beforehand and you didn't remember, or you heard it somewhere else beforehand and you didn't remember.

I'm not changing my specific point of view developed through years of experience just because shazam didn't catch you a song that you can't even remember right now.

>>19601307
I was refering to this with the criteria:
>since you wouldn't remember selfconsciously every music you have listened, every face you have seen or every place you have been.

Yeah, thats precisely why I can't be 100% sure it's original. And you can't be 100% sure it's not original. This way of thinking nullifies the arguments of us both.

I understand why you would't change your viewpoints, but thats also why I won't change mine. I have years of experience with lucid dreaming and producing original content with the help of the above mentioned practice that is not limited to visuals.

Let me reiterate for the final time just to be clear. I'm not talking about a "song that I can't even remember right now". I'm talking about a piece I've composed based on a melody I've heard in my dreams. I can indeed remember it, I can even play it right now. I'm pretty sure it's original. I'm also pretty sure I did not create it before. I would put it on paper much sooner if that happened.

>>19601357

The problem here is you're talking like i invented the concept of the subconscious mind being like that, i didn't, it's something broadly accepted and it happens to coincide with my experiences, that model has no holes in it, but yours does.

Nevermind, just to be sure, were you lucid dreaming? Because in a lucid dream you're using your selfconscious mind and that allows you to create, if you're talking about the normal cycle dreams we have everynight then no, i keep saying the subconscious can't create in them.

>>19601375
I was lucid, but my preferred method is to turn on a cd player or similar device in my dream and play a song that I'm yet to create in real life. Sometimes it doesn't play anything at all, sometimes it's just noise or something that I already know, but when I'm lucky, I can hear something original and remember it. It feels like I'm not the one who is creating it, at least not directly. So I would say it was done by my subconscious mind. I'm not experienced in psychology nor its terminology, that's why I didn't know your theory is widely accepted, so maybe I'm just confusing the subconscious mind with something else?

>>19601375
Oh, but to be fair, I should add I've only ever composed this way once. It was one of my dream goals. It takes less effort to do it in waking life anyway. But I might try to do it again, because of this conversation, just to be sure.

>>19601410

There's only one more accepted system apart from the subconscious and the selfconscious, it's the superconscious but that wouldn't help you with creating songs, it's just a filter that manages your tastes and how you react to negative/positive stimuli.

In a lucid dream you're a heavy influence for your surroundings and everything is fickle, just by being there expecting a song to come off that cd player makes the cd player a huge active element, something will come out of it but it will always be under your conscious influence.

Try doing the same while focusing your attention in other object you're holding, like a flower or a stone, something innanimate but with different patterns, you'll see how the music from the cd-player will lose quality and get erratic, and of course no more original pieces.

>>19601479
Well, I can believe that, because that's how I done it. I focused on the cd player and expected it to do what I intended. If I wanted it to fly away instead, it propably would. If I didn't focus on it, it would lose detail, if I forgot about it, it would stop existing entirely.

Still, it's weird, because normally it takes effort to come up with a melody and it was flowing effortlessly, with all the orchestration in that particuliar dream. And even though I concsciously wanted it to happen, creating the song itself didn't feel conscious at all. Then again, my consciousness during the REM sleep is a bit different to when I'm awake - more impulsive, emotional and maybe even more creative.

All in all, thanks you for your insight anon, now I'm pretty sure I'm going to try doing it again sometime.

>>19600473
Your brain remembers people you don't, maybe it is someone that passed next to you in the street, it is impossible to dream about someone you have never seen.

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>>19600473
>they are dream people

No shit op

>>19600473

We can create images of people we have never seen before, that's how people are able to draw characters, even photorealistic ones.

Since we have the ability to lucid dream, (awareness that you are dreaming), the conscious mind is not completely inaccessible during dreams. That means that neither is the conscious ability to create "new" faces like drawings, and using this ability we can dream that they are actually talking to us, or whatever.

So the next question is are these faces truly faces of people we've never met, well yes and no. They can be faces that aren't the same to any of the faces of people we've met before, but they must be a composite of faces that we have seen before. Or at least an average of specific faces, which while being completely unique, isn't "new" so to speak. But then again, what is "new"?

So in light of this, I'd say that if you don't recognize the face as the face of someone you know or have seen before, there is likely a reason for this and your brain is interpreting this face as it would a stranger's. So to you, it is a new face.

>>19601619
tldr: You can't dream of someone you have never seen, it is just that your consious forgot him.

>>19601676
What if it's an imaginary character?

>>19600473
It's, quite literally, impossible for the brain to develop original human faces. It's believed that those we see in dreams are the faces of others we've seen in everyday life or media. The reason for not recognizing them is because we don't pay specific attention to the guy taking a left turn at the intersection or the kid playing Minecraft on his moms phone. Though not notable, our subconscious somehow remembers these faces even though they were only seen during a quick glance.

>>19601683
Same shit.

>>19601819
It's not the same shit if I can dream of someone I just imagined and never seen before except in my mind's eye. I honestly don't get why is "you can't dream of people you've never seen such a popular meme".

>>19601946
Because it is a fact.

>>19602064
It's not though, and even my experience says otherwise. Do you also believe you will die irl if you die in a dream or in similar popular nonsense? Why would it even work that way? I'm honestly baffled.

>>19602064
Another anon chiming in, I dream of people I've never met more often than not. I dream of meeting people who aren't even human sometimes in my dreams.

>>19602144
They can't be called people if they aren't human.

>>19602126
Why are you so defensive? I am just telling you how it works, if you are happier believing you have only seen the faces of people you consciously remember then don't ask anything.

>>19600473
Or
> 3. They are generated with "pieces" of peoples we see during our lives.

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>>19602201
> I am just telling you how it works
Nah man, you are regurgitating nonsense and giving birth to bad archetypes. I merely wonder why. Again, why would it work that way?

If I dreamt of someone I know, you'd say its possible.
If I dreamt of someone I don't know, you'd say I've seen them before, therefore it's possible.
If I dreamt about a fictional character I've seen on TV, I've technically seen them so you'd say it's possible.
If I invented a fictional character of my own like I described here (>>19601946), would you say it's now magically impossible to dream of them? Why?
If I drew that character and looked on the picture, it would mean I've seen them. Now would it be suddenly possible to dream of them due to some weird illogical rule? Why? I don't get it, that's all.

>>19602297
You can consciously create a character, yes, and your subconscious can put it in your dream, yes, but your subconscious can't create a character to put in your dream.

>>19602388
Alright, say, in my next lucid dream, I decide to visit a dream vilage with many inhabitants. I will decide beforehand that all of the individuals in there will have glowing eyes of any color and I will sincerely believe it. Now, I've never seen an individual with glowing eyes in real life. Since I said I plan to meet a lot of inhabitants, there isn't a chance I've somehow managed to consciously create tens of fictional faces with such a specific characteristic. So what's going to happen?

Are the inhabitants going to have no faces? Hardly. Are the inhabitants going to have faces I've already seen, but with glowing eyes? Possibly. But I've never seen an individual with glowing eyes, nor did I create them beforehand. Therefore those are original faces composed of different parts. If you believe the inhabitants will only have the exact same faces I've seen before, why? Why is there suddenly a magical barrier preventing me to experience something like this?

>>19602245
Did you even read number 1?

>>19602441
Man, you are talking to a namefag. They come here to seek attention, not to read.

>>19601206
A little question if you are still here or will be in the future. You consider subconscious unable to produce original content other than that of visual character, correct? So how about conversations with dream characters? We've all had those. They are not visual, are they unoriginal then? Let me try to explain.

Can we only replay conversations we've already experienced by experiencing them again exactly the same way as we heard them before? You have to agree that this is hardly the case. If not, is the conversation composed of the exact same sentences we've heard before? Again, I'd say not. Even if you disagree, isn't specific combination of unoriginal sentences original in itself? How about words? Each sentence is composed of different words. The words themselves aren't original, but isn't a sentence composed of them original?

The other explanation is those words/sentences are random, but that's hardly the case. Sentences can't be random in order to make sense. And you have to agree that sentences in dreams do make sense most of the time.

If we admit our subconscious can create original conversations by combining specific words said in specific voices. Why wouldn't it be able to create original music by combining specific already experienced tones played by specific already known instruments as you've argued against? The music also needs to "make sense" harmonically and rhytmically, but so does the conversation - by word order, intonation etc.

So how does all of this fit into your views?

Bump. This thread has been interesting so far and I'd still like to know why is it that my mind can produce unique landscapes, environment and general visual imagery, but for some unknown reason, this doesn't apply to dream characters.

>>19602436
I will repeat myself, your subconscious can't create a character to put in your dream, but your concious can create a character and your subconscious may take said character and put it in a dream.

The fact you are imagining those people consciously means they won't be created by your subconscious.

>>19602488

Any comprehensible speech that you hear in a dream, you've heard it before or have produced it before selfconsciously and comes from implicit or declarative long-term memory. Also, your subconscious has NOTHING to do with any auditive stimulus, your subconscious ONLY understands the visual channel.

Dreams are on rails, if you gained lucidity let's say because of a reality check you were practicing, and try to approach any character you would see that they couldn't talk at all and they would only produce erratic noises. There's something with speech that the subconscious can't handle even after gaining lucidity (unless you're parroting the character) , i would guess it has something to do with the complexity of a language and also how we're wired to automatically transform a visual stimulus (letters) into an auditive one (internal monologue), that's why you can't read either in dreams.

>>19605159
You can read in dreams though.

>>19600473
Isn't it already either a fact or a factoid that every face we see in our dreams is a face we've seen in real life

>>19605202
How could they possibly test that?

How could a researcher compare every dream-face I've come up with to every real face I've seen in passing?

>>19605209
Fair point

>>19605199

Only isolated words that are archetypal, like love, God, death, sun, blood, cat ...etcetcetc

>>19605225
My trick to see if I'm in a dream is to grab a book and start reading. For a while, my mind makes up sentences and a bit of a story. But within a paragraph or so, my brain can't keep up and the words become jumbles. Either that or it just fades to a blank page.

>>19605159
That's yet another thing that is contradictory to my experience. I've had coherent conversations with dream characters before without doing any of the things you described to make it possible. In fact, I bet I'm not the only one. Try visiting dreamviews dot com, a dedicated lucid dreaming forum. Hundreds, perhaps even thousands of people claim to have experienced the same or even keep experiencing it regularly and I don't believe they all are making shit up.