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Consciousness general

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Some of you are probably familiar with the "hard problem of consciousness".
For thpse who aren't, it boils down to "how and why do we experience any sensation?" (Seriously, just google it if you want a better definition).

Now, a good deal of people just don't get what this is all about. You could explain it for hours and still fail to get it through.
Is it possible that these people jus don't have any first person experience?
That they are, as they say, philosophical zombies?
Let me elaborate: some disorders cause people to never experience emotions. Such people talk exactly like those who deny the hard problem about emotions. For example they insist that the word "sad" is a "social construct" "poorly defined" or "devoid of actual meaning". And almost inevitably they believe it is because they are smarter than others so they can see through this "game" and how useless it is, they almost never realize they are different, they believe that others too fake emotions just to get along with other people etc.

Extra: I seem to remember that there was something like this in gnosticism - the Hylics, or "Flesh-Men," who are soulless creatures who have no real life at all, but are mere puppets of the Demiurge.
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I think the trendy /x/ word is now NPC, lol. Aka organic portals, psychopaths, soulless people...

I actually was hoping someone would make a thread for this. I gotta think some things through before posting though so I can articulate my ideas.

A couple of questions to help things get started: Is consciousness something one must work or earn, or is it something only some are born with? What exactly are the qualities that unconscious (muh Jungian term) people exhibit that makes someone else sense it? What is the purpose, if one at all, of their existence.

Of course my questions assume that yes, this type of person exists. Anyone else have their own questions and theories? OP?
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>>16076026
Also, I do find the gnostic ideas and definitions of hylic, psychic, and pneumatic to be useful and simple
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>>16076111
Its something everyone gets when they mature past toddler state. However it can be "revoked" by feeling enough fear or stress.


People who don't feel things are either in a condition like autism or psychopathy or really shocked, scared, stressed or traumatized.
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>>16076026
I just think they are at a different state of development. They must learn that side of creation also, to emerge and be able to see and experience the opposite. I belive we have all gone trough various states like this.
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>>16076026

How does this square with Dennett's "empty factory" metaphor for consciousness?

Is it possible that we are zombies, even though it feels otherwise?
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Well diagnosed psychopath here. Ask your questions.
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>>16076195
Why and when were you diagnosed?
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>>16076159
Not OP, but imo Daniel Dennett's hard materialist stance on consciousness and frustration with philosophical thought in general puts him in that category of "something's missing". He's a brilliant man with his own views, but it's interesting that he dismisses centuries of philosophical thoughts and feelings on this subject and replaces it all with his personal perception on himself and others.

Not all things can be cut and measured, you know? Or I guess that's the issue. Can consciousness be cut, dried and measured just so?
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>>16076026
>Now, a good deal of people just don't get what this is all about. You could explain it for hours and still fail to get it through.
Is it possible that these people jus don't have any first person experience?
That they are, as they say, philosophical zombies?
Let me elaborate: some disorders cause people to never experience emotions. Such people talk exactly like those who deny the hard problem about emotions. For example they insist that the word "sad" is a "social construct" "poorly defined" or "devoid of actual meaning". And almost inevitably they believe it is because they are smarter than others so they can see through this "game" and how useless it is, they almost never realize they are different, they believe that others too fake emotions just to get along with other people etc.

Extra: I seem to remember that there was something like this in gnosticism - the Hylics, or "Flesh-Men," who are soulless creatures who have no real life at all, but are mere puppets of the Demiurge.

Yeah thats pretty much me to a T. I used to kind of have a couple emotions, but it's gotten worse over time as I've had to deal with more shit and dumb people/things. Idk why I was born like this or made this way. I just don't really care for or like anyone tbh. What I don't understand is caring so deeply about anything, but especially trivial things. Like small things make people happy etc. I don't really even understand peoples fears or fear of death or drugs etc. It pisses me off when I see fear in someones face. But for postive emotions I'm convinced everyone is just playing a big circlejerk game. It doesn't make logical sense for someone at customer service to be nice and happy to see you. It doesnt make logical sense for someone to go out of their way to do something for you. It doesnt even make sense that you would really appreciate it that much. Its all manipulation and fucking dumb bullshit
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>>16076280
Also, I feel like if you do have emotions you just haven't experienced enough in your life. Therefore emotions=immaturity=stupidity=women
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>>16076138
>>16076144
That brings up something that bothers me...Does society (perhaps unintentionally) push people into this state of zombiefication? Born, preschool, k-12, college/university, job, marriage, kids, job, retirement, die, with your progeny endlessly continuing the cycle.

Not that one won't face important learning experiences on the way, but it's that trip up on this path that shows one other ways of being and thinking.

I think fear and stress, or bad things things happening is necessary for conscious growth. People make decisions on how to handle things. They can follow what they feel is right for them, or follow others, for example.

Oh yeah and I've met autistic and other people with issues that exude love and intelligence in their own way, I feel that they're conscious.

So I guess for me a people should be able to experience or crave love to be considered more than a meaty robot.

That's a lotta words, sorry.
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>>16076280
I would argue that we all experience emotions. I doubt that you really do not experience happiness, sadness, anger, etc. Of course I have no clue, but I'm guess that most people with this feeling of no emotions just lack the ability to sense their emotions.
I too have had a very difficult time figuring out my own emotions and feel like I am apathetic toward everything. I now realize that my emotions are simply there to help me move through life.

>>16076311
"Does society (perhaps unintentionally) push people into this state of zombiefication?"
I think so. It is our job to be aware of our reality, our feelings, doings, emotions, everything.

Through awareness, which I believe can be/is synonymous with consciousness, we can develop a deep understanding of consciousness. You know that explaining any qualia or experiential phenomena with 100% accuracy to another being is basically impossible, which is why the best we can do is understand ti ourselves. There are numerous means though which we can experience and learn about these concepts, such as meditation, magic, dreams, gnostic states, pure experiences, revelations, epiphanies, etc etc. There are a million ways to describe the concepts that we all talk about and they all really do tie into each other very well.
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>>16076280
Just curious, do you consider yourself to have had a hard life? I mean compared to most people? I don't blame people for getting cynical and jaded.

I have a black and white thinking problem. One moment I fucking hate everyone, but then a stranger will do something nice for me, for example, and then the world becomes ok again. Rinse and repeat.
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>>16076405
Like I said, I did feel some emotions and I guess I rarely feel other emotions sometimes. When I do feel anger or sadness (never feel truely happy or truely anything really) I have to convince myself and try really hard to be angry or sad. It doesn't come naturally like it does most people. I suspect maybe if I changed my life I may start caring more, but it's still different from other people. I've never cared enough not to ruin my own life or other peoples. I dont have the true caring aspect of emotion.

>>16076407
I would say my life is harder than mosts. Partly because I made it that way, but mainly because I don't have the will and emotions other people do. I don't know if you've ever heard of a death drive, but I strongly relate to it. If someone does someone nice for me I see through it. They have their own usually stupid reasons for it, I appreciate it on some level that someone went out of their way to look like a giant faggot trying to manipulate me or feel better about themselves, but thats it. I have had an issue with black and white thinking in the past, I expect perfection from myself because the world has in the past, so I expect perfection from them.
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>>16076539
Thanks for explaining. Yeah, I feel some people are pretty genuine, but most are just trying to feel better about themselves. I know about others expecting perfectionism, I didn't have the best parents, but can't bring myself to throw it on others. Gotta stop the cycle of abuse somewhere, I keep telling myself.

Do you read Schopenhauer? Will to power? Great philosopher, should be up your alley.
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>>16076626
You're it's close to my philosophy. Schopenhauer although he realizes the will is evil isn't exactly opposing it by being aescetic. It's just another way to achieve his will. Despite that it doesn't prevent other people from continually being stupid, selfish, and narcissistic which is the real issue. Everyone should be purged with fire. It's the only logical solution.
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>>16076756
As long as it's all of us lol

>>16076405
I do like that humanity has created different ways of expressing abstract concepts to themselves and eachother. But it sucks when people get caught up in their own paradigm and refuse to acknowledge the universal aspects of things. They miss out on a lot of signs.
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>>16076756
Purged with love, I'd say.
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>>16076848

Exactly. My plan is to initiate the end of the world, I'll kill myself if or when I'm the only one left
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>>16076851
Love will never be the answer. To have love you have to have pain. Life in general is evil. Your very existence is harmful to someone else in some way. Not to mention how everyone fumbles through life not knowing what they are even doing most of the time. The only answer is extinction
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>>16076858
I think humanity is capable enough of doing it themselves. Personally, I'm hoping for a big asteroid, alien monsters, or something else cool. If you wanna take that chore on then follow your bliss! But please make it cool.
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>>16076908
I was just gonna crash and corner the stock market. Seems like the easiest most practical way
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>>16076935
Yeah, that'll definitely do it
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>>16076946
Yeah, let's hope so. I'd be pissed if I put a bunch of time, money, and effort into it and it doesn't collapse the world economy and start ww3
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>>16076865
>>16076858
Come on guys, you can't really be this cynical.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Love is synonymous with consciousness, it is really the purest and most essential form of energy.

"Life in general is evil. Your very existence is harmful to someone else in some way"
You are looking at this very one sidedly.

Your very existence is HELPFUL to someone else in some way TOO.
Life is about balance. There is no good without evil. They are complementary forces. Sure it can be sad and evil, but it is also happy and loving.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
This is the golden rule, this is karma.
It is our duty on this planet to realize this, that we ARE the creators of our reality. The way you decide to act and view the world, be it through hate or love, will be the way you world shows itself to you.

I know that you might not believe me, only experience will show you this and convince you.
All I ask of you and invite you to do is to experience your life and Pay Attention to what you do and how you think. The results you see will be so quick that you will be astonished.
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>>16076865
All of our cells came from individual beings banding together to form a single living creature. Could it not be possible to reach a more interesting state of existence if we could do that on a societal scale? That's a fun direction to take society.
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>>16076969
We've started wars for less! ;)
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>>16076971
No you're right, but what I strive for is perfection because it was and is expected of me and lots of us tbh. Everyone just fails miserably, but only the intelligent are affected by it.. That's what gets me, is that people point out our imperfections AND THEN point out that we are being imperfect by being affected by it. I'm striving for a world where there is no pain and suffering even in a "balance". Life IS inherently sinful and evil, most humans are inherently selfish and flawed. That's just the way it is. Any good that comes from it is merely temporary and fictional
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>>16076977
I do agree with this on some level, me and my brother even had a discussion that this is exactly what a more advanced/alien race would do. It's not really realistic though, there will still be suffering and evil. There will be good too, but so many people will be suffering at the same time. I don't see how people can be okay with living knowing that there are people in africa who have fucking elephantitis, ebola, and aids all at the same time. Not to mention they have to fish in alligator and hippo infested waters then get fucked up by lions when they try to get back to their tribe.

Nah tbh I just don't like people and life in general, there is a burning hatred in me that wouldnt give a fuck if everyone got nuked this instant
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>>16076999
Based trips.
Everything IS perfection.
You and everyone is perfect in their imperfections, EVERYONE has imperfections. And this is exactly why you are perfect exactly as you are. If you strive for no suffering and evil, then you have no option bu act through love and kindness. Humans are flawed, you're right.
I believe this is why we're here, to do our best and come to terms with our life and accept it and love it as best we can. Strive to be a better version of yourself every moment of your existence and nothing that truly matters can go wrong.
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>>16077073
Perfect imperfection- kevin gates

Good song. But yeah I hear what you're saying, I just don't know. Like I'm just done with it all. It's for me to be happy or stay sane at this point, not to mention everyones a faggot that DESERVES purge by fire
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>>16076311
>Does society (perhaps unintentionally) push people into this state of zombiefication?

Comes to think, maybe destroying our individuality is the way a larger organism is putting itself together, much like simgle cell organis were gradually made into multicellular ones.

This is more of a plot for a sf story than a real suggestion tho.
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>>16078420
Well, we function as a society like bees and ants do. We have a collective unconcious/morphic field thing going on, imo.
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>>16076971
Are you a psychologist by any chance?
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Burmp
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ill just leave this here
http://www.erratum.org/datas/pdf/1_SPIRITS/Leary,%20Timothy/Leary_NeuroLogic%20by%20Timothy%20Leary.pdf
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