Sword fighting

One thing that bothers me a lot in those sports is that often it feels like both would have killed each other.

Good to see it doesn't seem to be the case in the webms posted so far but you know what I'm talking about.

>>1837957
I think most of these are nonsensical, and only relevent to fencing.
In the takedown ones, nigga leans his body into the sword hat's between them to flip the other over. Not really practical.

>>1837961
>>1837957
Yes and no. Alot of this has to do with medieval clothing and practical combat. Armor of any sort is the clothing thing I'm about to talk about taken up to 11. Anyway its alot harder to cut in a grapple than one would assume, especially if the blade isn't perpendicular to what its sliding against. Often when its pressed against something the blade will at most give a little cut before being angled flat against the person in a grapple (obviously not the same case in an actual swing with proper edge alignment!) Clothes of the time usually feature thick quilted vests and jacket, almost to the point of being a gabeson often. Very hard to slash through, stabbing was often the way to go. Regardless, almost all combat occurred with armor of some sort (if you can afford a sword as opposed to a spear you can damn well at least buy a padded jacket, and probably mail at the least). Anyway I'm not terribly knowledgeable on this, and someone could explain this alot better and bring up alot I missed, but cutting with a sword is harder than it looks, even blades that are shaving sharp. Not ridiculously hard mind you, it is a sharp sword, but grappling with a sword isn't an instant losing proposition, although this all assumes the other guy is being controlled by the grapple and isn't able to respond too much. Anyway sorry for the ramble.

>>1838232
Why not just use a lance? seems like a polarm style adapted to the wrong weapon

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best sword fight

>>1838240
Halfswording is not a fighting style, it is just used in a few techniques. Think as if you were in a battlefield carrying your sword, and in one specific moment you need to do a thrust with a lot of precision into a gap of an armor. Using a hand to hold the blade will give you a lot more of precision or leverage for defense, if that is the case, but you still can do it using a sword (keeping the advantages of using a sword over a lance).

>>1837755
>This is an "how to die from bleeding after disabling your enemy" episode

>>1837728
Is that actual sparks at 5s?

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>>1837728

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>>1838438

>>1838441
You can see a bit of them swinging at each other's swords, but for the most part it looks pretty good. Better than most lightsaber fights at the very least

The thing I hate about stuff like mordhau is that its referenced in like two fencing manuscripts and nothing else. It was likely an exploration of what COULD you do with a weapon and not what was common place. Taking your sword point away from the enemy would have taken way too long, offered no grip, and provided poor leverage and range. For example, a person wouldn't bother using a sword as a mace if they could simply use a war hammer or a straight up mace instead.

>>1838434
you're retarded if you dont wear chainmail anyway

>>1837731
someone slow mo this for the lazy stoner anon

>>1838968
Dude, it's supposed to be a technique for duels. You couldn't bring a mace there and you could take your time in the beginning.
Even in a battle situation though, the argument of "oh duh, could just bring a war hammer" is bullshit. You can't carry a whole arsenal around with you, so you have to get best usage out of the weapon you have at the moment.

So even if you rarely have the time to do it, it is a useful technique to know. It can be used effectivly, even considered the downsides. So what on earth are you complaining about?

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>>1837728

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>>1839292

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>>1839294

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>>1839295

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>>1839299
>checked

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>>1839313

>>1839313
how does someone do this? The filming style?

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>>1839316

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>>1839321

>>1839319
By pausing the game

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>>1839322
>check them mounts

>>1839322
dont look like a game to me budde

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>>1839324

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>>1839326

>>1839325
Is of joke, yes? I actually have no idea anon

>>1839331
dont know what to believe anymore desu, everything looks so good nowadays it's crazy. Thanks anyway budde

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>>1839331

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>>1839333
>dem digits

>>1839332
I hear you. Crazy how far we've come

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>>1839334

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>>1839335

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>>1839338

>>1839325
>>1839331
remember that film 'The Matrix'?

yeah, they kinda pioneered that 36 camera setup which gives you the same image from several angles and created 'bullet-time' cinematography

dunno if those medieval fighters were filmed with a top-tier rig such as a television studio might have - but there's videos on youtube about how to get a similar effect


tl;dr several lenses in a circle take a picture of the exact same moment

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>>1839340

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>>1839342

>>1839341
Thanks anon! Will remember that

>>1839341

Wow, it's amazing that they thought of doing that. It makes so much sense now.
Thanks mang.

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>>1839343

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>>1839352
Last I got

>>1839359
where is this from?

>>1839319
There's a rig with like 20-30 cameras lined up on it. They then use software to morph to the video taken at the same moment in time by the next camera in line. See any documentary on how the matrix did bullet time.

>>1838437

yes.

The only other time I've seen it is when some dudes where trying to break a rapier with a greatsword (and any other swords they had handy), just to try and show that rapiers aren't as delicate/fragile as people think.

>>1839369
from from the BERSERK: The Golden Age Arc movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpYqFJxVuBc

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>>1839352
Same dude, actual Spadone.

>>1837957
>>1837961
yall have to think, in heavy plate armor, the point is to get the enemy on the ground or otherwise in a position where you can get inside the armor and muddle their innards. just whacking someone with a sharp sword isnt gonna do much good. the HEMA webms are more realistic than the fencing ones though, for sure.,

>>1838437
>>1839379
when i fenced with USFA sparks were common place. it has to do with rust on the blade, when practicing and our blades were rusty they sparked, which was a good indicator it was time to clean our blades

>>1839359
berserks animation was even lower than shit tier

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>>1839630

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>>1839635

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>>1839636

>>1839352
Damn, those were impressive cuts.

That's not a zweihander, though. It's just a longsword.

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>>1837957
It's a big concern in tournaments, which a lot of rule sets try to address.

>>1837961
>>1838434
Swords aren't lightsabers that will cut you open just from touching them.

>>1838240
The point of those techniques is that you don't have a polearm and you have to make do with just your sword.

>>1839295
What is this from?

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>she will never be your wife
>he will never be your father-in-law

>>1839746
the noah movie with russel crowe and emma watson

>>1839789
damn that baggy pants with the tight socks look seems comfy as fuck

>>1839334
Those USA tunics(?) are fucking sweet

This looks like a incredibly high risk for injury
These guys look like they're legit beating the dog shit out of each other

>>1839352
ahaha is this the cringe thread?

>>1839352
weebs btfo

>>1839636
throwing your longsword like a javelin is high test

>>1839351
It adds so much production value doesn't it?

>>1839322
>>1839334

What are the weapons made out of? Is this scored in some way? It's really interesting but it also looks dangerous.

>>1838441
>ah, the captains blade is not so firm?
>Firm enough to run you through!
>*pelvic thrusts opponent into wall*

what faggotry is this?

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>>1839806
They can be called tunics, but tabard is the proper term. They are fucking sweet

>>1839864
Steel, look up "Battle of the Nations" for more info

>>1839727
I guess it's natural for me to refer to any two-handed swords as "zweihander". Thank you for the correction though

>>1839630
>>1839635
>>1839636
Excellent

>>1839609
Thank you

>>1837728
Great thread, please keep going. Just started a class in fiore and this shit is awesome.

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>>1839609
That's some Claymore shit right there.

>>1839964
"The enemies hearts are full of fear and now they flee!"

>>1839333
Fence hungers is the most annoying part of those battles.

>>1839964
A phalanx doesn't work if you don't your own spears.

>>1839313
upload with sound please webms without sound are dead

>>1838441
What film is this, that swordplay for a film was amazing! That definately used to be a skill for actors of the era,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJTljpz3n9Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilRXbB3h0Lo&index=15&list=LLUtr4y7vg0-7XNs-pEDQ59w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bwN2BQeiHQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bwN2BQeiHQ

>>1839796
Lol what??

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>>1838835
>You can see a bit of them swinging at each other's swords
At least....

>>1838232
Lol at the way the demonstrator starts tiptoeing with his strikes after that first throat chop, which was really rough.

>>1840562
It's from the 1940 version of The Mark of Zorro

>>1841025
That counts as a broadsword?

>>1840562
>That definately used to be a skill for actors of the era

It has more to do with the fact that both Errol Flynn and Tyrone Powers were excellent swordsmen; there were any number of actors who more-or-less just flailed around. Basil Rathbone was also a world-class swordsman as well; IIRC he won a military dueling championship in his younger days.

>>1841090
A broadsword is a basket hilt sword, just like this guy have.
The broadsword of video game and movies are actually arming sword

>>1840608
It's true. The relation to "Noah" ends at the name and the flood that comes

>>1839845
Sure does. I thought it was all some smart CGI when I saw the movies when I was young.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRgKzmOK0T4

>>1841090
>>1841478
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GYGSkdwCMo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSsy2vYhSSU

>>1841902
Neat

>>1839727
That guy is quite tall and the handle looks like a bihander one for me. A longsword is nowhere that big

>>1842348
Slavs aren't swords

>>1839727
Zwei hander = two hander

Nifty thread.

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>>1839359
>decent European fighting
>cutting through chain mail
>stabbing through brigandine

This show has some good fighting in it

>>1839191
The fact that people think it's not a technique for sport fencing and a legitimate warfare tactic

>>1840078
Imagine the handjobs.

>>1843084
Sallets are the best helmets

>>1839299
Those are long swords. Zweihanders are much larger.

>>1842530
This is from the HEMA competition longpoint, in the US.
The technique is called a "Zwerchhau"
The guy's name is James Clark
His sword is a custom one made by Arms and Armor, Link: http://arms-n-armor.com/custom917.html
It's an Oakeshott type XX.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakeshott_typology

My point is, it's a Longsword, not a Zweihander, Montante or Spadone. It's what we in modern language call, a longsword.

>>1838251
Ds3 with bad connection

>>1843084
Maria the virgin is great

>>1837755
Would something like that actually be a viable strategy in a real historical combat?

>>1843777
Absolutely. Grappling was extremely important.

>>1843756
kek

>>1843777
i mean yeah why not if you're talking about a life or death situation, everything is game on

the only reliable way to kill a target if both armored. throw him down and knife the gaps

>>1839789
Is she being taught by a wizard?

>>1839609
So Dark Souls 3 is pretty accurate then.

>>1844994
more accurate than you'd think, at least parts of it.

>>1844318
daggers probably killed more men throughout history than any other weapon.

>>1841524
Its a fuckin Comic Adaptation, it has no Relation to the Bible Story.

>>1838232
i think his elbows are too high
makes him easy to read

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>>1839837
actually, cutting 4-5 of this in straight line is really easy, even I've done, it it's just that HEMA fags suck at actual sword handling because they use it like sticks
cutting once and then cutting the cut part that is hard.

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>>1845102
or the one that's just laying there without making it fly all over the room, that takes real control
they do not train handling the sword as a sword that cuts, they train the moves but do not understand that sword is for cutting not clubbing
90% of HEMA enthusiasts can't cut for shit

>>1838240
a lance is a cavalry weapon you dumb nigger

>>1845102
>>1845108
WEEB

>>1845102
I've watched people do this in hema quite a bit

>>1845108
haven't seen this though

But I agree not enough people in HEMA work on proper cutting and that is a problem.

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>>1845108
>>1845102
>they do not train handling the sword as a sword that cuts, they train the moves but do not understand that sword is for cutting not clubbing
You are confusing modern armoured sword bashing and hema.

>>1839359
>The quarrel doesn't go right through his fucking leg
>Only goes in an inch

Crossbow can penetrate armor, let alone his rock hard muscle

>>1843777
just be sure you're wearing chainmail

>>1839864
lol BoN

I know a guy who does this, he's also the teams smith

>>1845419
he got pulled over by the cops once

"Sir, why is your car full of swords?"
..
"I just really like them!"

>>1844939
Gandalf is a badass swordsman

>>1845258
You just said it, Rock Hard.

>>1837731
fuck man, European martial arts deserves more respect than it gets.

>>1837731
Watched like 50 times

>>1841478
Isn't the sword in question just a sabre? I thought broadswords weren't curved blade.

>>1837957
>both would have killed each other.
This is pretty accurate. In a lot of duels were the participants were not wearing armour both died as a result

>>1839294
>every strike aimed at the other's sword

>>1839292
This is pretty damn good, only thing is the dude's guard drops after the grapple leaving him vulnerable to being inured by the opponent's flailing sword as he goes down.

>>1839295
>>1839359
>>1843084
Get this faggot shit out of here

>>1845403
A thick gambeson will do too.

>>1845442
European sword nomenclature gets real complicated real fast.

>>1845540
For a modern reference you could wear a decent leather jacket and do these techniques with no worries.

>>1845451
They aren't wearing protective gear. You're a fucking idiot.

>>1845694
They're using synthetics and aren't going full speed. Aiming for the body shouldn't be unsafe under those conditions.

>>1839338
I love the dude wearing the bascinet sitting on the floor, watching his team mate get shoulder charged to the floor and the nod he gives

>>1845258
Guts is so alpha that even crossbow bolts are scared of him

>>1845102
>>1845108

This is good for ceremonious and honorabu weeb combat, but this would get destroyed by hema.

>Can't stop any longsword blows
>Nothing to counter grappling
>Nothing to counter daggar
>Nothing to counter anything but its very self

All form, no function

>>1840148
been playing Rome 2 for the past week

>>1845442
theres two different swords in that webm m8 and only one of them is curved

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>>1845929
Same, senpai

>>1845878
Kek, never noticed before. Thanks anon

>>1845451
That's probably the style they have, besides spears and javelins were their main form of war

>>1843235
Thank you, again I guess it's just natural for me to call any weapon requiring two hands a zweihander. I'll be more careful

>>1838251
pure Aesthetic

>>1845243
nah, my point that only small percentage of people does that not that nobody does
you can't understand the sword without cutting practice, the sound it makes when you swing it properly, maan...

>>1845901
dude, that's not combat, it's cutting practice it's to train to be able to keep cutting angle on the sword from any position

>>1845102
>>1845108
fuck off wannabe

>>1839359
fucking japs with they fake shit combat style

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR1cMPnMcaY

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>>1846115

>>1845022
It actually follows the story quite closely.

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GRORIOUS NIPPON STEER

>>1839295
What's the point of a war when one nigger has all this power in one fucking weapon?

>>1839613
Are rolls effective?

>>1839618
That respeck

>>1838022
Thanks for your rant anon, I checked back today, and I'm glad I got some answers.
>>1839620

You anons are right, I didn't consider just how thick their armor/clothing of the time is.

That being said, grappling someone with a sword then sticking them is actually pretty feasible?

>>1846966
Almost never, hence why it was funny.
If someone rolls towards you, you just hold your point out and stab them as they roll into it, if they roll any other direction, you can generally catch them with a step and an attack.

tl:dr, Rolling is bad, weapons moves faster than bodies.

>>1846972
the more armour they are wearing, the more feasible it is, it's generally your only option when fighting someone in plate armour.

you'd be surprised at how good cloth is at stopping cuts and slices, thrusts not so much.
and if someone is wearing chainmail, most cuts are ineffective, especially as thick fabric was usually worn underneath. You'd be better off using blunt force like a mace or a warhammer to bash their head in or break bones.

>>1846911
Apparently, Cain's taint spread across so much of mankind that they did not care about God's power. They just killed, ate, and fucked until their plague became too much of a burden on Earth

>>1845173
Are you gonna pretend that the video he's responding to isnt just as cringy? You are probably a fucking nerd too.

>>1845446
Yeah. I took up fencing, it's really easy to kill the other guy but still get killed anyway

>>1845258
In the anime they cut through full plate all the time, like it's made from cardboard. compared to that this webm is pure realism
also most crossbows can't penetrate armour, that's just a meme

>>1839618
Aren't these weapons designed to pierce armour?

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>>1837728

>>1847728
not really

>>1847728
The spike, yeah

>>1847882
That's a common misconception though. Even if you manage to penetrate there's still a lot of padding underneath it, and it's likely your hammer will now be stuck.
Based Matt has made plenty of videos about this topic.

https://www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria/videos

>>1847730
>Pointless anime tier spinning
Wew lad

>>1847732
reminds me of equilibrium.

>>1838251
UNRIVALED

>>1843103
hahaha

>>1847986
That's one of the swords from The Witcher games, i'm assuming she's one of the mocap actors. I could be wrong though.

>>1837761
This is a shit example, since the guy on the left ain't doing shit to defend himself. just a demonstration, not sparring

>>1843103
>>1848074
>she can rotate her head 180 degrees and stare at you while you do her doge

no sure if want...

>>1838434
He parried the first cut goddamit

>>1839801

It is.

>>1847882
Spikes weren't used for penetrating because they'd get stuck. On poleaxes they were more likely used for tripping/hooking shields and breaking spear shafts.

>>1837728
How much do these swords actually weigh anyways and can they actually inflict injuries in actual combat scenarios back in the days?

>>1848250
longswords, i.e. a twohanded sword you can wear at your side that isn't large enough to be a greatsword, historically weigh between 1 and 2 kg (roughly 2-4lbs) with 1 being very light and 2 being pretty heavy. most were around 1.4kg -ish

historical weapons and armor tend to weigh much less than people not in the know think they do.

and yes, they could inflict injuries, otherwise they wouldn't have been used, making a proper functional sword isn't easy, so they wouldn't have bothered unless they were actually useful. A thing to remember though, is that the sword, wether it be a one-handed sword (generally referred to as an arming sword) or a longsword, were sidearms, backup weapons, equivalent to the moden day handgun. Primary weapons of the time were spears, halberds, pikes, pollaxes and longbows. swords weren't drawn unless your primary weapon had failed you to some extent (broken spear, no more arrows, enemy too close, etc).

Swords are very, very effective against unarmored people, but their effectiveness inversely correlates with how much armor the enemy is wearing. If the enemy is wearing full plate, your sword isn't much more use than a metal stick best used to wrestle him to the ground with, so you can put your dagger to work where the armor isn't, like eyeslits in visors. But people in full plate were usually to important to be killed anyway and were usually just taken captive and ransomed back for a shit-ton of money.

tl;dr: 1-2 kg (2-4lbs). Yes, unless opponent is wearing a lot of armor.

>>1846966
did you really need to ask that question

>>1848098
You are correct

>>1845694
Even more pointless then

>>1839322
I love this sport

>>1846966
Only fastroll

>>1848494
Battle of Nations may be entretaining for the uneducated masses, but for anyone who knows even the minimum about medieval combat it's pretty garbage

>>1848575
>Battle of Nations may be entretaining for the uneducated masses

Yup, which is why it will eclipse HEMA in popularity and whatever fame we achieved will go by the wayside, and we'll be just the weird dudes who practice with swords all day, just like how it was back in the day.

>>1839515
The cringe is real

>>1845108
Cavalry sabres can do this against fresh bamboo that's why even the japanese used them until the age of the sword ended.

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why has no one posted this classic?

>>1848816
they used them because politics
and point of that webm is not what sword can do,it is what human can do with any sharp object of appropriate length if trained

>>1848139
Here's a perspective:

Most martial arts show you ways to defeat lesser skilled opponents. In the case of learning sword fighting as a knight or a noble, In war you're normally fighting uneducated peasants.

>>1839321

It took me a second watch to see it but lol

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>>1837728

>>1848875
>In war you're normally fighting uneducated peasants.

Fuuuuck oooooooofffffffffffff with this horseshit lie. Even a surface analysis of medieval warfare will tell this is blatantly false. With rare exceptions such as rebellions, warfare was conducted by the knightly class and professional mercenaries.

>>1848825
The ultimate attack for killing boiglas who invade your house to steal your nachos and cookies.

>>1839295
I thought that, if the robot went for a quick grab and grapple the robot would have prevented the catastrophic lanse-into-fire-into-nuclear-exlposion. But i'm new to sword fighting..

>>1839331
>>1839334
>>1839333
>>1839324
>>1839321
>> i do my killing after breakfast

>>1845939
>TO THE FEAST!!!!

>>1849625
The "robots" are on the same side as the dude with God's sword.

>>1847730
source on this?

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finally a thread i can contribute OC to.

>>1840078
Too bad the manga was absolute dog shit.

>>1851485
This thread is for swordfighting, not cringe webms.

>>1851610
Don't see the point of your comment as I didn't post a cringe webm.

>>1852044
>2 retards mindlessly bashing each other with little to no technique in a renaissance fair
>not cringe

>>1849625
>>1849829
Yeah, and the robots are actually fallen angels covered in molten earth and mud to forever mark their betrayal to God by helping man instead of forsaking them. It also weighed them down and prevented them from ascending back into heaven. Strange movie

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>>1848891
It's quite the blow

>>1849629
Do you end them rightly?

>>1849685
RAHH!

>>1839827
Not before you got here.

>>1852055
You're right, it's not. Sorry I didn't post something pre-rehearsed.
>implying medieval fighting was between learned swordsman philosophers
>implying all medieval combatants were highly trained
>implying real combat is a seamless transition of perfectly executed maneuvers
Let me guess: you've taken a lot of karate classes and never been in a real fight of any sort.

>>1852240
Even the dumbest and least skilled swordsman would have know not to bash a breastplate with his sword.

Seems I struck a nerve or something

>>1837731
>>1837757
I think they're Talhoffer illustrations if anyone is interested

>>1852341
It's Fiore dei Liberi, you twat.

>>1847732
Is Steven Segal the president in this movie?

>>1851456
Literally swinging at swords

>>1851485
Larping

I jus twanna say that this thread is pretty fukken cool.

>>1845258
>Crossbow can penetrate armor
Depends on the era, fourteenth and fifteenth century knights were nigh unstoppable.

>>1845434
Europeans deserve more respect than they get, but dont worry its coming ;^)

>>1839175
right click
play speed -> half

>>1838441
>I needed that scratch to awaken me
anime as fuck nice

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>>1852537
well polish saber is a shitty recreation of a system with no historic treatise

>>1852537
>Literally swinging at swords
Literally blind

They don't have the best sense of distance, but they are actively striking deep targets.

>>1852076
If a knight runs through the woods does it make a sound?

>>1838251
Source of the song?

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>>1853129
[clanking intensifies]

>>1838251

My laughter started going to the beat of the music.

>mysides.jpg

>>1845108

Lol, they don't need to cut. HEMA will just bash your face in with a longsword pommel after your katana breaks from trying to deflect a longsword blow.

As one anon said before, all form. No function. HEMA practices on the BRUTALITY of combat, no ballet dances.

>>1847986
If it's for Witcher, spinning and pirouettes are justified in the lore. It's the Witcher's combat style as it enables monster hunting. If they move the blade rapidly enough, most monsters cant track it and react accordingly.

Yes it's pointless in real life unless you're just doing a display performance.

>>1842743
Katana = sword

>>1839609
>pull out a gun

>>1854047
>falling for fake mall ninja bait and unironically going WEST IS STRONK
>not appreciating martial arts from all cultures
baka

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>>1848825

>>1854443
heh, cool.

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>>1854443
lmao

>>1854443
Anime at

>>1855320
This makes me wish disputes were still settled with duels

>>1842724
fuck me i laughed so hard and i don't know why

>>1848825
Say what you will but that combo will never not be fucking sick.

>>1837734
fucking Læffy in a suit of armor

>>1848144
absolutely what i want

>>1855615
top kek, I see it now

>>1848825
Shit whatever gets him burning weight, you can see he's out of breath from that alone.

>>1854443
>the sun
Lost

>>1848825

I loved it when he posted on /k/ to all those dudes talking shit on him

>>1852668
This

>>1837734
Laughing my ass off at Lauffy!

>>1840595
>>1840599
>>1840603
armor babbies

>>1838240
No lance nor pike nor spear is strong enough to block a slash with a two-handed sword. It'd break without even slowing down the hit so that it wouldn't cut you in half.
Also your question makes me feel as though you know better how to use this weapon. I'm pretty sure XVth century german heavy infantry knew what they did.

>>1845939
>LEEEROOOY JENKIIINS!

>>1853129
You forgot:
>and noone is there to hear

>>1839727
what the fuck is impressive about that?

>>1856515
imagine being this confident and completely retarded.

>>1838835
Actually, striking the opponent sword is a good strategy if you can knock if off course

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>>1856696

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>>1856702

>>1856702
>that duck and slash
Very cool!

>>1853157
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Cmm_G3kss

>>1856639
How are they wrong?

>>1845474
everybody point and laugh

>>1852668
Inshallah, brother.

>>1858051
Polearms are made out of very hard wood and have steel rivbons near the head to reinforce them, you can't just cut clean through them with a sword like in the movies

>>1858051
>>1858294
Also you usually don't do a static block but rather redirect the blow to prevent the shaft fom cracking or splintering

>>1858051
>>1856639

the case for two handed swords being able and having been used for cutting through poles is pretty solid.

If we look at Zweihänder and Kriegmesser users, they often fought against pike men, using the sword as their primary weapon rather than as a sidearm. That is a documented historical fact. That wouldn't really make sense if the sword couldn't damage or at least effectively deflect the pike.

And just by looking at the weapons themselves, everything about large two handed swords seems to be designed to give you maximum cutting and deflecting ability. It is longer so the tip travels faster. It weights more so it has more inertia. And you're using both hands so you can generate more force. I mean you wouldn't object if I told you that car that is light, high powered and aerodynamically designed was made to go as really fucking fast.

And that these swords weren't used in contexts that didn't include pole arms or duel points them being anti-polearm weapons, not swords with a broader set of functions like a bastard sword with uses such as every carry, secondary weapon on the battlefield and with both one handed and two handed use. The large two handed sword is simply not side arm and it doesn't allow you to use a shield at all so if you're using it at all you're probably relying on it's "scissors beats paper" potential.

There is also a historical source, Paulus Jovius describing the battle of Fornovo

> "Suddenly, as the Italian pikemen, javelin-throwers and crossbowmen began to approach, about 300 picked young men who are called "the forlorn hope" issued forth from each flank of the infantry body and with their great swords which they wielded with both hands began to chop up those enormous pikes with such boldness that nearly all those pikemen, aghast, turned their backs in flight without waiting for the main body of the infantry to come up."

But who knows they could have been useless at doing what everything points to them being used for.

>>1839630
>>1839635
>>1839636
who is this guy?

>>1858508

Akademia Szermierzy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B54w_u8tm9Q

>>1845451
> He can't see how often their stabs are directed so that, if committed, they would reach around an opponents defenses and poke a nigga.
> He can't tell that this is obviously a drill intended to develop forearm strength and practice basic parries.

Pretty pathetic...

(The weapons are shit, too and you're not ALL wrong but still.)

>>1846966
only steamrolling

One of the problems I've always had with most modern sword fighting is that it seems to always emphasize just touching your opponent in certain areas. Not getting a good solid blow, just touching them. Its why the majority of these fights seem so weak and wimpy; they're prioritizing a light touch over a more realistic blow.

Its also why it seems like almost every single one of these fights could be won by the opponents just shoulder rushing and tackling whoever they're up against.

>>1858436
>the case for two handed swords being able and having been used for cutting through poles is pretty solid.
Not every two handed sword is a greatsword.

>everything about large two handed swords seems to be designed to give you maximum cutting
Against people, not wood

>There is also a historical source, Paulus Jovius describing the battle of Fornovo
Jovious could not have witnessed the battle since the guy was literally a child at the time.

>battle of Fornovo
Began on 6 July 1495
>Paolo Giovio
Born 19 April 1483

The quote you posted is a translation that's over 20 years old. The original author who published that translation of the quote posted a revised translation of that on MyArmoury.

http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=257562#257562

>Extemplo namque ubi appropinquatus est extraordinarii delecti iuvenes ferme trecenti, qui propter laudem summo quaesitam periculo vitae prodigi perditique vocantur, ab utroque phalangis latere prosilierunt , ac ingentibus gladiis quos ambabus manibus regebant enormesque hastas praecidere coeperunt. Quorum audacia territi pene omnes, priusquam phalangis impressionem expectarent, terga verterunt.

>Suddenly indeed when they had come close about 300 young men, the elite, who through the praise that is gained associated with great danger, are called 'careless of life' and 'given up for lost' (in English 'the forlorn hope') issued from each side of the phalanx and with their huge swords which they wielded with both hands began to cut down the enormous pikes. Astounded by their boldness almost all the pikemen turned tail without waiting for the mass of the regiment to reach them.


Could greatswords cut through polearms?

Sure. However, testing has shown it takes a couple of good whacks, and that's with the polearm being stationary. In real life, you're not going to get as many clean cuts with everything moving.There are also reinforced polearms with langets or iron rings, which makes cutting even harder.

>>1858436
From what I understand, keeping in mind that this is all educated guesses and conjecture, the use of large two-handed swords (along with halberds and other large two-handed weapons in this context) was not necessarily to lop the heads off of pikes.
Realistically, it was to push aside pikes to allow soldiers to get past the points and into the pikemen themselves. When you consider how long some of these pikes were, it's relatively easy mechanically speaking for someone to bat them aside, especially when swinging a sword large enough to keep you out of the range of a pike thrust. Once the pikes have been knocked aside, another soldier has the opportunity to get past the points and into the pikemen themselves. Considering how long some of those pikes were, there was little the pikemen could do to defend themselves against a sword-wielding soldier at such close range. Even if they were carrying a sidearm, they'd still have to relinquish control of their pike to use it, which creates a weak point in the line.
While not impossible, I imagine that pikes would only really break under certain relatively rare circumstances. The soldiers weren't expecting them to break when they were hitting them, but certainly wouldn't neglect to tell everyone about it when they did.

>>1858914
While I would agree in some cases, keep in mind that a blow doesn't necessarily need to instantly disable the opponent to be successful. Striking your opponent with a hit that inflicts a light cut on, say, the face or the hands while simultaneously protecting you from a counter strike can only hinder your opponent help you.

Also keep in mind that the fighting styles taught in many of the manuscripts are focused more towards duels and trials by combat than they are battlefield fighting. Oftentimes these fights weren't necessarily to the death but merely to first blood (or a certain number of telling hits)

>>1847730
>all that time wasted spinning the sword behind her back

>>1846966
yeah, the i-frames are key to winning in a duel

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>>1859042

>>1859024
Everyone tries to justify the "zweihanders against pike-wall" strategy, but until I see some guys attempt a recreation and find success with less than 50% casualties, I'm going to believe it's all made-up fantasy and misunderstanding.

>>1856696
That parry-void-counterattack at the end was some next-level shit. Like, how do you even train that as a reflex?

>>1839295
Noah was the best fantasy movie in recent memory

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>>1859583
I don't know about "best", anon. Good because it took a story told so many times and put a spin on it.

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>>1859636

>>1859014
>Jovious could not have witnessed the battle since the guy was literally a child at the time
Not saying that guy is right, but twelve years old then isn't the same thing as twelve years old now. Boys of that age could be found in military camps and armies fulfilling many different roles.

>>1852055
Dude, the fucking nobles were all trained in combat. The entire point of the peasants paying them is that the nobles had to fight for them. They all were fucking trained.

>>1859636
My thoughts exactly

>>1837728
>>1837731
>>1837755
>>1837761
It would be interesting to see something that's not rehearsed. Something that actually proves skill, not just being able to follow a routine

>>1839630
I'm sorry, but this look so gay

>>1856546
Each of those rolled mats are roughly as strong as a human leg. He's effectively cutting through three human legs. This is wicked impressive. You should try it sometime and realize that it's not as simple as striking the mats.

>>1854438

HOROSHO!

>>1859680

>Against people, not wood

I'd argue that they are optimized for cutting through everything that you can cut through, people, horses, shields, cloth, leather and of course wood.

>testing has shown it takes a couple of good whacks, and that's with the polearm being stationary. In real life, you're not going to get as many clean cuts with everything moving.

But if you're in a formation going up against another formation, wouldn't you have plenty of time to deliver good whacks to pikes coming at you? Even if the pike changes target, every possible target is yet another person wielding a similar sword. It'd be like shoving your polearm into a giant wood chipper.

>There are also reinforced polearms with langets or iron rings, which makes cutting even harder.

But why even reinforce the polearm at all if wood is good enough?

>>1847732

Well that was sure nice of the first guy to wait for Steven Seagall to get within striking distance before pulling his gun on him.

>>1854082
In The Witcher, they are also supposed to be spinning/moving at a speed which humans can barely track. The slow it down EXTREMELY for the game.

>>1859764
Shuddup, weeaboo

>>1839745
>Swords aren't lightsabers that will cut you open just from touching them.
Underrated statement.
To put things in perspective, two historical, well-documented facts:

- several medieval sword manuals DO depict holding the enemy blade with the bare hand, with explanatory texts like "as long as he can't slice his edge against your flesh he won't cut you" and "to free your blade from being grasped, hit his hand with your other hand / buckler / whatever, so you can slice it with the edge; otherwise you won't be able to free your blade" (or slightly variants of the above)

and

-Crimean war British cavalrymen complained that their sabers (curved blades, inherently easier to cut with than straight blades) would be unable to cut the felt coats of their Russian counterparts.

>>1838835
>Tyrone Power vs Basil Rathbone
>both of them top-tier fencers
>"just swinging at each other's swords"
You'd better have remained silent than making that statement, Anon.

>>1846966
only barrel ones

>>1839636
Evil overlord tier. Somebody give him a gun to club with.

>>1854407
>>not appreciating martial arts from all cultures
This
t. Katori Shinto Ryu & I33 practiser.

>>1848235
also coup-de-grace if you KNOW you can un-stuck the weapon afterwards

>>1848575
Our usual nickname for it is "bumper cars"

>>1852575
Against bows. Crosbows went right through. There's a reason knights fucking hated them.

>>1860358
Only heavy crossbows that took half a minute to reload with a crank.

Your average hand-loaded crossbow has the same penetrating power as a longbow

>>1859562
>I believe more in what renactors do than in what they actually did in period
I am a reenactor, yet instead of feeling honored by your blind faith in or good offices, I find your stupidity cringeworthy.

>>1860497
Dude, there's been controversy for hundreds of years regarding the use of zweihanders on the battlefield. One of the very few primary sources we have on their use was written 20 years after the fact by someone who wasn't even there to see an actual battle with them.

So like I said, until I see it work in realistic simulation I'm going to assume it's BS. Much like how, even in our enlightened age, many people believe that back in WWII, the sound of the M1 Garand's en-bloc clip being ejected would alert the Japanese to attack when the Marine was reloading. On first glance it seems somewhat legit, but then you do more than surface-level thinking and realize it's a completely stupid idea.

>>1860365
Average hand-loaded crossbows were used mainly for hunting from the 14th century until the 18th (with the introduction of both plate armor and more powerful crossbows), so their lack of penetration of plate is a moot point.

>>1860594
I reiterate: as a reenactor, I find you cringeworty

>>1860666
It's cool how you don't provide any basis for your opinion. Tell Satan I said hello.

>>1841025
lol this is my HEMA group I think I made that webm

>>1839864
> Is this scored in some way?
The team with the last people standing wins. You're considered out if you fall over, get knocked over or tap out. Also, the refs will disqualify anyone who appears to be too concussed to defend themselves.

>>1838968
Plate armour couldn't be damaged by sword blows. The mordhau grip is designed to circumvent this.

>>1845939
>Hey guys can I borrow some sug- OH SHIT!

>>1846966
Backwards, yes. Any other direction, no.

>>1859014
I legit thought I was on /his/ for a second and was going to commend you for this excellent post, but then I remembered I'm on/wsg/ and literally want to suck your dick right now.

>>1859583
>>1859583
yeah I love fiction to film adaptations

>>1859099
daww

>>1837728
>>1837755
Imagine actually sword fighting someone from that time period. I bet they'd be so fucking good.

Don't die just yet.

>>1839294
>Ethiopian

In their fucking dreams.

>>1860201
Not the guy you are replying to but

>cutting through shields
In all the testing videos I've watched I have never seen any type of sword cutting through a shield. Shields can break for sure but that's after extensive usage or receiving severe damage from blunt weapons. Can you tell me where did you get the idea that there are swords designed to cut shields?

>Why reinforce the polearm at all?
Learn some reading comprehension, he didn't say they couldn't break, he said it was difficult to do and the reinforcement made it even harder. In fact any weapon could break in battle after enough punishment.