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so is this a fighting game or not?

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so is this a fighting game or not?
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>>315317267
*grabs OP by the throat* back the fuck off?!?!
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>>315317267
Why does it matter?
>>
All of the Smash Bros games are fighting games

Anyone who says otherwise is an autist who twists the definition and likely uses terms like "Hackurai"
>>
In case you haven't realized by now, Memelee is obviously a "masturbating into own mouth and swallowing and pretending it's Memelee's jizz" game.

I honestly have no idea how you could be confused about it given all the daily reminder threads on /v/ about this.
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>>315317481
>All of the Smash Bros games are fighting games
This.

Smash series crafted its own little fighting subgenre in which they're still some of the only games worth playing in said genre.

But if you can't see how Smash still has lots in common with the rest of the fighting game genre, then you are dumb.

Yeah the inputs are simplified, movement is completely different from traditional fighting games, and the conditions to win are completely different as well but it is still a fighting game series.
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It's a different type of fightan game

There's the standard SF style (SF, KOF, Darkstalkers)
There's airdashers like GG and BB
There's the MK style (MK, Injustice, KI)
There's 3D fightan (Tekken, Soul, VF)
and there's smash style (smash, PS Allstars)

At least, that's how I understand it.
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>>315317267
Yes, it has the same shit all fighting games have/should.

Anyway >>315317370
>>
I'd call it a platformer/fighting game or something like that. It's clearly not a traditional fighting game, but there are elements of it in there.
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>>315319210
Also 3D arena fighters like Naruto: Ultimate Ninja Storm (bleh), Pokken Tournament, and Gundam Extreme VS.
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>>315320262
Would the DBZ games fall in that category?
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>>315319210
/thread

You can add whatever adjectives you want to it, but it's still a fighting game
>>
Does anybody REALLY care if it is or isn't?
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>>315318540
>Yeah the inputs are simplified

Which is almost strictly a good thing, the result is that the controls are way more responsive, there's more ways of controlling movement and you can improvise actions more quickly. The fact that the game's inputs are analog means that the game also allows for things that use the fineness of input.
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>>315320362
yes
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>>315317267
Yeah, it's just not a traditional one
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>>315317267
It's a game where characters fight each other that doesn't play similarly to other games where characters fight each other.
>>
>>315320419
>Which is almost strictly a good thing
How would you map Kyo's Rekkas to smash's input system.
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>>315320989
I don't know my KoF that well, but probably something like Marth's Dancing Blade.
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>>315321262
That wouldn't work, because C rekka and A rekka have completely different chains after them.
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>>315321476
I have no idea then, since Dancing Blade is the closest thing smash has to a rekka.
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Smash Bros is a harmless game that is in the same vein as Mario Party where up to four to eight players can brawl in a platform environment. The way to victory is to knock the person off the stage, and to do that, you rack up their life percentage. The higher it is, the further they fly when struck. There's various different stages from all across the Nintendo universe. Some are less tame while others have you avoiding the various hazards scattered throughout. And to add to the fun, items spawn, allowing you to further increase your repertoire against others.

In short, it is a fun game, and is as crazy fun as Mario Kart and Mario Party.
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>>315317267
Its a fighting game

and Melee is a damn fine game

Im an OG fighting fag so i never took it seriously

I played 64 Smash when it came out and was hooked but i never took it seriously

I never bothered with the rest(Melee/Brawl), despite friends asking me to play in high school

I played brawl with friends, but i hated it

But then Smash returned at EVO 2013 and i was impressed that such an old game could still keep such a huge amount of people interested

So i decided to learn Melee, and realized that Melee and 64 are pretty fucking legit.The sheer amount of tech is amazing, i just find L-canceling all the time very annoying.

Brawl and Smash 4 are absolute garbage tho and i can't imagine why anyone would prefer to play them instead of Melee outside of the obvious roster differences. But even exclusive smash 4 characters are boring as fuck to play, except for Ryu who really stand out ironically.
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>>315322117
abandon thread
>>
I think what OP is trying to say is

>Is it a competitive game?

And the answer is no. The game was not built with tournament competition in mind. Yes, it has a tournament mode. That's as tournament as it will ever get.
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>>315321476
I've never played KoF, what's the actual issue here?
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>>315322215
Troll :^)
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>>315322215
>The game was not built with tournament competition in mind
>Yes, it has a tournament mode
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>>315322371
Tournament mode and competitive are two different things.
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>>315322215
>The game was not built with tournament competition in mind.

The first two Smash games were made to be competitive more so than the initial two iterations of SF were.
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>>315322215
Whether or not something is competitive isn't determined by intent or design, it's determined by people being willing to compete, and in this case, put money on it.
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>>315317481
yeah what this guy said
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>>315322229
Fitting this onto one button
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>>315320989
>>315321476
How does it work? Couldn't you map it so it's initiated with direction+button then altered by using various directions mid-combo? I honestly have no idea what kind of attack it even is, but I think anything could theoretically work with a simplified input system.

>>315322215
Smash Bros is competitive by nature. Sure, it's designed to be a casual experience that anyone can enjoy, but it is definitely competitive. Pretty much all multiplayer games are based around competition. It's not the same as games that are designed to be played competitively at big events and such though, which is probably what you're referring to.
The important thing is that there are options in the game to make it more balanced(by turning off items, stage selection etc), so it was definitely designed to be played in multiple ways. One of them being competitive. People liked the thought of playing the game at high levels, with as little randomness as possible so a competitive scene formed around it.
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>>315322560
No they weren't. They were made for the sake of putting a lot of the Nintendo masocts into an environment where the point of winning is through jumping around and using their attacks. No different from the same strand of the Mario games like Golf, Tennis, and the like.

NOW, an argument can be made that you can effectively make these into competitive scenes, like >>315322602 is suggesting. Yes, nothing is stopping people from competing in a game.

But smash was not made to be played centrally like other competitive fighters. It's target audience is not competitive fighters. Kids can eventually become competitive in it, and so can more experienced adults. That is how most games' environments survive, aka cave-style shmups for instance.

But just because any game can be made competitive does not mean it was designed to be balanced around competition. Sakurai intentionally told us that it wasn't cause a scene was growing. He very well could have made an optional mode where a 1v1 environment exists and all characters are adjusted for balance sake and the stages are more tailored to platform brawling. He COULD have done this, but he did not. Nintendo wants to make an enjoyable game for the majority and the tournament scene is unfortunately the minority.
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>>315322692
Maybe it could be like Marth's Dancing Blade but after each swing, you could charge it for a second for a completely different attack, plus "activate" a completely different string.

There.
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>>315322692
Oh, well the inputs themselves dont need to be perfectly translated over, just the move itself.
Looks like he only has 3 rekkas, so it could use the same input as Marth's side b, diagonal up, forward and diagonal down.
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>>315317356
I recognize this reference

>im trying
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>>315323104
>He very well could have made an optional mode where a 1v1 environment exists and all characters are adjusted for balance sake and the stages are more tailored to platform brawling. He COULD have done this, but he did not
That option definitely exists in the game. Sakurai didn't mean for people to play the game at a serious competitive level, but you can do exactly what you described.
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>>315322117
>>315322215
>>315322464
>>315322560
>>315322602
>Competitive.

ABANDON THREAD! MODS!!
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>>315317267
No
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>>315323037
>The important thing is that there are options in the game to make it more balanced(by turning off items, stage selection etc), so it was definitely designed to be played in multiple ways. One of them being competitive. People liked the thought of playing the game at high levels, with as little randomness as possible so a competitive scene formed around it.

You made one assumption here that I think you didn't think through. You said the way to balance the game is to turn off the items and stage selection. What if the game was designed around the very fact that the game has these random elements? It is the way that most of the casual fanbase is going to play the game as, so who says that doing all this balanced the game? The game is different when items are on. So why didn't any of the tournament scene realize that when they turned off items and limited stages, they are very well not trying to balance the game, but instead make it more like flat or aerial fighters, ala Street Fighter, Marvel, etc.

That's the main problem with the tournament scene rules for Smash. They didn't make the game more balanced. They simply changed it to something that the FGC are use to cause they believe this is the true way to play the game competitively.

So instead of embracing what makes Smash unique, they tore down everything unique about it and watered it down to a worse version of itself.
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>>315323440
Everything was civil and fine until you came in and started screaming.
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>>315323181
The third rekka is a different move entirely though,and each of the other 2 have 2 different enders
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>>315323440
nice get!

Also to stay on topic:
>>315317267
if there's fighting then it must be a fighting game. It's just a different type of fighting game from games like street fighter or skullgirls.
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>>315323337
Yes he did this but he did not put anymore effort into development to make this way of playing balanced for each fighter. He did not care that Fox would be abusing his low recovery moves and high mobility to make most of the cast unplayable at high level. He just decided

>it'll be fun if more experienced players would want to test their mettle in less chaotic environments

So he allowed you to turn items off. That's it. He didn't think pass this because they were not going to spend anymore development on trying to make this game more serious. It's a casual party brawler.
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>>315322692
Not who you were talking to but i think you are approaching this the wrong way. You arent wrong that the types of inputs for traditional fighting games allow for a larger and more varied move list, but i and i think many others would argue that what you gain in move variety you lose in elegance 10-fold. The complex control scheme results in a clunkier form of gameplay overall which may be a trade you are willing to make and thats perfectly fine, not one is saying traditional fighters shouldnt exist. The point is just that there is considerable merit to what you might call a simplified system
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>>315323748
The game is a fighting game. But it's not a competitive fighting game, which is what surrounds the controversary of Smash being at big tournament scenes in the same pool as Street Fighter.
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>>315323535
>so who says that doing all this balanced the game?
Probably the people who've played it for 13 years and discovered all the little quirks and mechanics. I see your argument and understand what you're saying, but I disagree. I think the characters were designed without items in mind at first, then items were added. I don't think it's really possible to design that many characters with all the randomness in mind. Either way, the game does get more balanced without items and stage hazards.
>So instead of embracing what makes Smash unique, they tore down everything unique about it and watered it down to a worse version of itself.
That's your opinion and it's fine to have one, but the competitive scene doesn't share it. They want to play the game in a different way. The in-game options and settings allows them to do so, so there you go.
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>>315323538
>Implying I wasn't in the thread already.

Now it will be autists trying to force his opinion to others to take a party game seriously in a way games never should be.

>>315323440
Awkward.
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>>315323947
>The in-game options and settings allows them to do so, so there you go.

Then there's nothing stopping another competitive scene from sprouting with the various other rules, like Special Smash, equipment being on, and the like.

Unfortunately, it's very hard to get a scene started against a pre existing one because those people who act as the rule lawyers over it are too stubborn to try something new. And like I said before, everyone is so brainwashed that the game has to be more like traditional fighters that they are unable to get out of the stagnant mindset they have about smash, keeping the game stagnant and not evolving.
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>>315323535
>So instead of embracing what makes Smash unique, they tore down everything unique about it and watered it down to a worse version of itself.
id argue the basic concept of a "platform fighter" with the way characters move, the simplified input scheme, and stage choice having a comparatively large effect on gameplay is what makes smash unique first and foremost, not the items.
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>>315323535
>So why didn't any of the tournament scene realize that when they turned off items and limited stages, they are very well not trying to balance the game, but instead make it more like flat or aerial fighters, ala Street Fighter, Marvel, etc.
>That's the main problem with the tournament scene rules for Smash. They didn't make the game more balanced. They simply changed it to something that the FGC are use to cause they believe this is the true way to play the game competitively.

You have no idea what you are talking about and are just parroting what a bunch of other FGC people who don't play the game themselves have said. We know exactly how the game plays without items and it is more unbalanced, stagnant and degenerate in general. At no point did anyone decisde to turn of items in any kind of attempt to make it more like other fighting games, the game is just more fun without items and what they add to the game isn't worth it compared to what they take away.

Also, if you didn't know, you can go to most any tournament, and if you ask your opponent nicely, you can try playing on any stage you want.
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>>315319210
just because KI was made by a western studio doesn't make it MK-like, I'd lump it in the SF group
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>>315324187
>Then there's nothing stopping another competitive scene from sprouting with the various other rules, like Special Smash, equipment being on, and the like.
Nope. Nothing at all. It's just that this particular way of playing caught on. Note that it wasn't always the case. Back when the scene just started out, people played with items on and played on all kinds of stages. It's just that a majority of the people didn't enjoy the random factors of that style, so they changed it for what they thought were better.
It'd be very hard to get a parallel scene going with different rulesets, because most people who want to play Smash competitively want an environment with as little luck as possible. But, you can always try and there will always be some people who enjoy that. I don't think any competition that involves prize money should include luck, but that's my opinion.
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>>315324187
Or maybe the majority of players who play competitively just prefer that kind of ruleset.
Even then, it's not like they don't enjoy chaotic FFAs with items. I've seen many times at weeklies and smashfests where people were playing silly FFAs when setups got more open.
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>>315324187
>Then there's nothing stopping another competitive scene from sprouting with the various other rules, like Special Smash, equipment being on, and the like.
that's the nature of competitive communities and is hardly unique to the smash scene. Baseball has tons of variant rules but there's a reason theres a 99% standardized rule-set among professional leagues around the world.

A huge part of the lure of competition is showing you are more skilled than your competitors and for that to work you need a general mode of play that everyone can agree on. This isnt to say you shouldnt play the game the way you like, just understand that the larger community isnt going to shift with your whims
>>
It has some fighting game elements of it. It's definitely not a traditional fighter. It's like a sub genre, arena fighter I'd say. Although I usually just call it a glorified king of the hill game to upset the smash babies.
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>>315324656
Weren't the original KI games basically MK ripoffs?
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>>315324187
>Then there's nothing stopping another competitive scene from sprouting with the various other rules, like Special Smash, equipment being on, and the like.

Completely correct, and this is exactly why the community is happy to experiment with mods of all kinds and play them seriously in tournaments.

>those people who act as the rule lawyers over it are too stubborn to try something new

But I assure you this is not the case. The rules exist because of years of copious experimentation across several countries. Feel free to try out shit yourself though, nothing's stopping you.
>>
>>315324412
Mario Kart is unique because it is a driving kart game with items. Take away items and what do you have? The only reason no one argues games like it and Mario Party is because those are the core elements of the game. Items are also core in Smash and keep the game interesting. That's their design philosophy for these types of games, and it's in most rendition of mario party style games. The point of these games is not to win, but to have fun trying to win. It's not like you're playing chess and randomly getting a powerup like some chess-clone games did on the PC.

>>315324442
None of you know how the game plays without items. How do I know this? Because a scene was never created for it. We had a lot of hearsay around the community about this, but no one was ever able to give evidence that in a scene could not survive with the standard Smash rules of all stages and having items on. If it took many years until the tournament scene finally standardized around no items, final-D format, then they should do the same with other rule sets, especially the one advertised by Nintendo themselves. So as far as that is concerned, that has never been proven because a group of people did it one day and went back to what they thought worked.

>Also, if you didn't know, you can go to most any tournament, and if you ask your opponent nicely, you can try playing on any stage you want.

Then what's the point of competitive? Where you have to ask someone nicely if you can do a non tourney stage and have them go yes or no. And there are going to be players who cry if it's not a tournament stage. The tournament scene is a mess and no one is trying to break out of what smashboards tells them.
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>>315324701
I still consider the biggest scene of Smash will always be the item-on scene cause you're always going to have more casuals than competitive players and they like playing with the standard ruleset. It's more fun and makes the game less about so and so experienced player beating on them forever. It's fair, is the word I'm looking for, and competitive smash is not fair at all.
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>>315317267
>tfw people will still say its not even with proof in font of their face
they're just like religious people, who don't know when to shut the fuck up
>>
>>315325057
>None of you know how the game plays without items. How do I know this? Because a scene was never created for it.
Except they first started off with items.
Also Brawl experimented with items at EVO.
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>>315324886
Nothing is stopping me. Maybe one day when I have a bunch of money, I'll quit working for a year and attempt to create a scene by making big pots to draw people in with.
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>>315317267
It is. Until the FGC show up. Then you let them argue amongst themselves about how it's a party game without interrupting them and hope they go away soon.
>>
>>315325260
I know the scene started with items. I was there. The problem is that no one persevered cause they thought random items was bad. In fact, the random element of items is very balanced. No one knew that bombs for instance don't spawn directly on top of your head, but have space where they spawn. This way, it gives the player a chance to evade them before they hit. But again, you wouldn't know that unless you analyzed item spawning, which could be a thing if people cared about it more.
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>>315317267
Well its a game, and characters are sure as shit fighting each other.
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>>315317267
Can't it just be a fun game?
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>>315324852
>2D arena fighter
There we go. That's the subgenre.
>>
>>315325260
Also, the official nintendo tournaments were 4 player FFA with items.
They never caught on because that format doesn't work well for tournaments.
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>>315325057
>Mario Kart is unique because it is a driving kart game with items. Take away items and what do you have?
There are people who enjoy playing MK without items. If they wanted to build a competitive scene around that playstyle, that's their choice. Hell, look at the speedrunning community. It's not quite the same, but there are categories in speedrunning Mario Kart 8 that involves using only mushrooms, or no items at all, for example. There is no money involved, so it's not the same, but I still think it's a fair comparison.
>>
>>315317481
Not really. Sakurai said they aren't.
>>
It's to fighting games to what pluto is to the planets
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>>315325257
That's not proof lol pretty much any game that has a heavy emphasis on fighting is labelled that on their wikipedia page.
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>>315325768
Sakurai has said a lot of things, doesn't mean he's always right, get off his dick
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>>315325659
Yes? Competition is fun. Competition is the very core of video games. You win or you lose. Winning is fun. Playing against other people trying to win is fun. Why are you under the illusion that competition and fun are exclusive to one another?
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>>315325867
>pretty much any game that has a heavy emphasis on fighting
>heavy emphasis on fighting
>emphasis on fighting
>fighting
>>
>>315325867
Care to give some examples?
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>>315325847
Kek
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>>315325881
Competition isn't fun when the game was not made for it. So you get unfair scenarios like Bowser vs. Speed of Light Fox.
>>
>>315325387
That would work to a certain extent, but people will play what they want to play.
>>
>>315325872
But it's true. If a game developer says a game is not something and they aren't doing some shit like saying that this clear platform game is a racing game, then he's never wrong.
>>
>>315323908
Smash could easily be made more complex without any loss of integrity by adding an extra mutually exclusive button or two.

I still fail to see how Kyo's moves couldn't be mapped to Dancing Blade style combination inputs. Even for the initial variation, there are a bunch of moves that already vary distinctly based in the speed and/or angle of the opening input (such as Link's boomerang). Even with only one special button, and relying on existing side-B openings, I don't see anything that couldn't be mapped. Even if this wasn't the case, a single extra button, or even combinations of existing buttons, would easily cover everything.
>>
Yo who hype for wobbles coming back?

He just got sponsored by PG so he'll be on the same team as Plup
>>
>>315326113
>Competition isn't fun when the game was not made for it.
Says you. The hundreds of thousands who play competitive Smash disagrees and so do I. I think it's a lot of fun, even if the game wasn't designed to be competitive. The game is not well balanced, but people still enjoy it.
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>>315326064
Marvel Nemisis, The Warriors, probably even Dynasty Warriors. I'm guessing beat em ups are labelled as fighting on wikipedia too.
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>>315325867
>pretty much any game that has a heavy emphasis on fighting is labelled as a fighting game
you don't say
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>Competitive party game
>>
>>315326304
Of course they disagree. Autists are a lot more likely to stick to a game, especially when they feature the characters they grew up with. It's not strange that these people happened to like Nintendo games before they took up Smash. Smash is literally a fighting game for kids. The simplicity of its inputs is enough to have brought these people to the game, make no mistake.
>>
>>315326235
you are almost as retarded as
>>315325867
>>
>>315326265
Two Rekkas, each with different branches, that also need to fit on the control scheme with his four (or more) other special moves.
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>>315326235
Sakurai contradicts himself all the fucking time.
>>
>>315325257
>wikipedia
>>
>>315326451
>Immediately resorting to calling people who don't enjoy what you enjoy autist
Alright.
>The simplicity of its inputs is enough to have brought these people to the game, make no mistake.
Yeah. The simplified input system was a way to get more people to play the game. It's got a very low skill floor in comparison to traditional fighting games, but once you get up to a high level, it gets very, very input heavy and you'll need to be precise too. That's one of the reasons it's so much fun to people.
>>
>>315326350
Scratch the Warriors off that list, its listed as beat em ups in its wiki genre. But the other two are listed as fighters and they're not traditional fighters
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>>315326350
Thank you. I haven't played the other two games, but Dynasty Warriors is definitely a traditional fighting game.
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I think people should play the game however they want
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>>315326595
I'm retarded for saying wikipedia is not proof? Are you new to the internet or something?
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>>315326794
It's not fun because of the Melee-like high level moves. Fighting games like STreet Fighter and such have those, too but they aren't core. The fun of the game comes from the fact that's low skill flow, so at least you got that right. I'm calling a lot of the players autist because well a lot of them exhibit more autist traits than the standard FGC. Things such as nervous disorders, various degrees of intellect, and abnormal social tendencies. The FGC has its own share of these, but at a much lower percentage. I'm not speaking this out of my ass. I'm able to speak in detail about this because I've held and been to many tournaments throughout my life. There's just a different breed of people around smash.
>>
>>315327053
You fight each other in the game, whether is traditional or not, one would assume that in a game where you fight each other, it would be a fighting game, but no I'm retarded. Don't feel bad, at lease your only the second most stupid person here right after
>>315325867
>>
>>315326909
My bad, I meant traditional like arcade. Like you wont see any majors for dynasty warriors or something
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>>315326953
He looks like a white OJ Simpson.
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>>315327174
>It's not fun because of the Melee-like high level moves.
Do you not understand how the word FUN means literally nothing? It's all a matter of opinion. You don't think it's fun, thousands of people who play the game think it's fun.
>>
>>315327434
No one ever tells me that smash is fun because of some obscure moves that one or two characters just have to have, though I can see your point since they are one of the top tier characters that dominate the game. So of course their moves will be highlighted.
>>
>>315327282
How old are you, 12 or something? I never called you retarded in the first place, you idiot. Your poor reasoning also doesn't work because you could describe Marvel Nemesis that exact way and you won't ever see that game at Evo
>>
>>315325242
Damn I'm biting. How is a merit based system unfair
>>
>>315326636
I don't get it. At each stage of the rekka, how many different moves are available to you at once? More than 8?
>>
>>315327695
What obscure moves are you referring to?
>>
>>315325242
It doesn't matter if you turn on items or random stages on, the better player will always win.
They have done exhibition matches with casuals and good players.
Even on 3 vs 1, with items on and shitty stages, the player who knows the core game better will ALWAYS win no matter what.
>>
>>315327907
>ALWAYS win

There are never absolutes. Again, we lack the statistical information for this because no one in the community wants to try to prove otherwise.
>>
>>315327907
>the better player will always win.
That's not guaranteed at all. You can't predict randomness and while the better player will definitely have a huge advantage, you could get absurd situations where items just spawn perfectly for one of them.
>>
>>315328092
>You can't predict randomness
No item can or will save the non-good player.
You can evade pokemons, tech explosions, recatch projectiles, ledge stall the hammer, you can get around ANY item in the game by knowing how to play it.
>>
>>315327907
Of course the better player will win more times than not. He probably knows how to react faster and can use more advanced tech. He may get caught by the chaotic nature of items or stages here and there, but if the other players suck, he's more likely to be the victor.

That tune changes when the other players are just as good or at least have a basic understanding of the game, which is good because it creates a comeback scenario where you never know if you will the fight or not based on what items spawn and various scenarios. That's healthy for a competitive environment.
>>
>>315327794
depends on the game, but usually 2 for light rekka and 1 for heavy rekka.
but the problem is that light and heavy rekka are completely different from each other, when Kyo still has four other moves to take into consider.
that's six moves that need to be mapped to a four-move inputting system.
That's not even going into Light and Heavy DP, autoguard, supers, air and ground blowback, and extra rekka branches he has in some games.
>>
>>315326636
>Two Rekkas
Covered by Boomerang variations, which allow for at least six distinct openings for side B moves alone.

>each with different branches
Which can then be covered by Dancing Blade inputs, which can use whatever direction inputs you want in addition to the openers without any conflict with other moves.

That's all done just with existing in game input mapping techniques.
>>
>>315328314
>That's healthy for a competitive environment.
>RNG is healthy for competition
Am I being rused right now? Hopefully.
Randomness is never good for serious competition.
>>
>>315328252
No, I don't agree. I think there are some items that lead into situations where one player can do nothing to prevent a death.
Say a Pokeball spawns right next to one person and he immediately throws it on the ground. Straight down. There is no chance to reflect it. Out of the Pokeball comes fucking Zapdos or something, that locks the opponent in a thunderstorm. Still unable to do anything, another Pokeball spawns near the leading player and this time the player throws it below the trapped opponent. Out of it comes Moltres and just as Zapdos attack is done, Moltres flies up and into the opponent who should be around 70% at this point, instantly killing him.
It's unlikely, but possible. Items has the potential to make a difference, which is why they are generally frowned upon in competitive play.
>>
>>315328492
RNG exists in every sport on the planet, and Dota, one of the most impactful esports, has it.
>>
>>315328314
>it creates a comeback scenario
No, it does not.
Comebacks are real, and they occur when a player extremely outplays the other by using their entire skill.

>>315328669
It takes a ton of frames for a pokemon to come out. A skilled player can easily evade it.
>>
>>315328669
After posting this I realise how close we are to GameFAQs levels of discussion, so instead of making long ass posts I'll just say that anything involving luck can pretty much lead to whatever outcome, however rare. It's more philosophy at this point though, because we have never actually seen something as bullshit as that happen.
>>
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>>315328669
That's called a combo. Maybe you heard of it.

>Items has the potential to make a difference, which is why they are generally frowned upon in competitive play.

Good. Keeps people on their toes. You should never relax, which is a healthy form of competition.
>>
>>315328825
Or a player gets too lazy and forgets that the game has elements to keep both players in a fair exchange of power. Which is what items and hazardous stages did before the tournament scene decided they weren't fair, when in fact, they were the definition of fairness.
>>
>>315328825
>A skilled player can easily evade it.
Not when trapped in an unavoidable attack, which is what Zapdos's is.
>>
>>315327695
>No one ever tells me that smash is fun because of some obscure moves that one or two characters just have to have

Why would they? The core game mechanics are awesome, and the properties of the more interesting moves just make it even more so.
>>
>>315328874
>That's called a combo
It's not a combo though.
>>
>>315329027
No.
A skilled player can easily back out from the pokeball before the pokemon comes out.
You are given way too many frames to do so.
Even easier if you are playing a high tier, which an skilled player is most likely doing.
>>
>>315329135
But it's a combo. The other player is caught in a situation where they are being hit with subsequent attacks, aka the pokeball scenario. Of course, that scenario won't always happen unless you have less items on with pokeball included. See, you probably didn't know that either. Item meta.
>>
>>315329163
>A skilled player can easily back out from the pokeball before the pokemon comes out.
Not if the Pokemon attack takes up the entire stage. Ever played Yoshi's Story?
>>
>>315328669
>Zapdos
Couldn't you just SDI the thunderstorm?
>>
>>315329259
You don't know what a combo is, do you?
>>
>>315329273
Well, now you know if you ever play Yoshi's Story, play a character who can control the stage and get to items better. It's interesting decisions like this that could make the competitive scene more fun.
>>
>>315329273
>Zapdos summons in the middle
Wavedash back ledge, then ledgestall/haxstall/shinostall
>Zapdos appears near a ledge
Retreat to other ledge.

Wrong again.
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EFx0-Zkn54

Since we're doing the dumb dance about items again
>>
>>315329387
The scenario describes has the player locked in hitstun for the next pokemon attack to harm him if the RNG brings out the right pokemon. If he's not in hitstun, then it's considered more of a trap. So yes, I understand what a fucking combo is.
>>
>>315329448
Post the M2K Hax match were they play with Pokeballs
>>
>>315329282
Even if you do, the possibility still exists that the next Pokeball spawns in time for the player to throw it out, get the Moltres to do it's appear animation and get the attack in right as the Zapdos is done fucking the player up.
>>
>>315320262
>>315319210
You know what all those fighters have in common that Smash doesn't have?

A health bar.
>>
>>315329448
Should of rolled.
>>
>>315319272
This ends the thread.
>>
>>315329503
Only an attack with stupidly high amount of highstun would "combo" into Zapdos with enough time. You would need something like Ganon's Dair and you would also need to fucking ledge cancel it to have enough time to
>throw the pokeball
>pokeball lands
>pokemon comes out
>finishes summon animation
>Zapdos activated hitbox
Way too many frames to be a true combo.
>>
>>315329616
Smash has stamina mode.
>>
>>315329545
>M2K Hax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTxFMBoyZeQ
Shame there isn't one without the whiny announcer
>>
>>315329703
Well.. Okay, I guess its a fighter with platforming elements.
But seriously, only babbies care about genres.
>>
>>315317267
Do you fight people in it?

No shit you fucking mong.
>>
>>315329850
That's what people have been saying for years. Platform fighter.
>>
>>315317267
It's a very primitive one. It's a fighting game where only two characters are viable.

Saying items and wacky extra shit makes it not a fighting game is stupid.
If that were the case MKX isn't a fighting game.

Protip: just because an entry in a genre is bad doesn't make it not part of the genre you elitist fucks
>>
A better question is why the fuck hasn't there been a good clone of the game yet, other than Rivals of Aether, which isn't even finished
>>
>>315330091
No idea. We know so much about Melee's mechanics and what makes it great, so it shouldn't be too hard to emulate.
>>
>>315330091
Jump Ultimate Stars
>>
>>315328364
But when you're in a rekka, you can't do anything else, so none of the commands overlap, like dancing blade. Furthermore, rekkas are successive by definition, so the move at any stage can be context-dependent on the previous move. It can all be mapped to one button to start and the rest don't interfere with any other inputs.

Anyway, what's the point of this? Smash uses analog input. Even if it's restricted to tilts, smash inputs, and neutral, with two buttons and timing variances, the input space is plenty large.
>>
>>315329819
Yeah PB&J sure is a fuck
>>
>>315326451
Street Fighter has silly characters too, that tons of people grew up with. Does that make it for kids? Does the fact that MK is gory make it NOT for kids? Because MK has one of the least mature fanbases around.
>>315327174
Every fighting game has autists in its community. Justin Wong, Mew2King, Sonicfox, KBR, Viscant are all examples of these socially abnormal "autists", each from a different fighting game. It's just that confirmation bias is telling you that Smash players are somehow more autismal than the rest.
>>
>>315330389
Some of Kyo's best combos involve cancelling A rekka after the second hit.
But the Rekkas aren't the problem here, It's that Kyo is a basic character, but he has five distinct specials on his own, on a system that allows four specials.
>>
>>315329819
>Hax and M2K geeking during each crazy match
that was nice to watch
>>
>>315320262
>not liking naruto storm
get the fuck out of here
>>
>>315330039
>It's a very primitive one.

All other fighters must be prehistoric then.
>>
>>315331271
yea man I can't believe traditional fighters limit every character to 12 moves from a neutral stance.
oh wait.
>>
>>315331753
Shit movement in traditional fighters
>>
>>315331989
Different games, different mechanics.
>>
>>315329616
Stamina mode.
>>
>>315330039
>only two

So you don't know what you're talking about.
>>
>>315332064
see
>>315331753
>limit every character to 12 moves from a neutral stance

lol
>>
>>315331989
I bet you can't even Tiger Knee or hyper backdash
>>
>>315332259
What of it?
>>
>>315322117
>i can't imagine why anyone would prefer to play them instead of Melee outside of the obvious roster differences.

You will understand that the moment you realize Smash is not all about Wavedashing and L-cancel competitive tech shit.
>>
>>315329819
Thanks for putting this up here to prove that items make Smash a random piece of shit and that the game can never be competitive with them. That was fun to watch but if a tournament had it it would be total bs
>>
>>315332098
>>315329762
That's not the main feature of the game. That's like saying Tekken is a side scroller because one game had it.
>>
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The real question is: how is it not a fighting game?

No other genre comes close to describing it. You can argue it's like a multiplayer beat-em-up but it's closest to a fighting game.

>muh capcom
>muh third strike clones
>muh health bar and super meter
>it's not a fighting game if it's not doing what every other fighting game does

I have never seen a compelling argument as to how it is not a fighting game on this imageboard.
>>
>>315331753
Yeah man I can't believe traditional fighters let you fly around the screen and KO someone off the borders of the TV.
oh wait.
>>
>>315331146
>Some of Kyo's best combos involve cancelling A rekka after the second hit.

Which matters why? There nothing preventing you from being able to manually cancel stuff, so what's the issue?
>>
>>315332627
You're moving the goalposts now. You can play with a stamina bar if you like. Smash Bros is flexible like that, hence why people are having so much trouble pin pointing its genre.
>>
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>>315317267
Hey OP, why don't you flip that case around?
>>
>>315332756
>There nothing preventing you from being able to manually cancel stuff, so what's the issue?
there's the whole "locking me into a rekka" thing keeping me from cancelling it.
>>
>>315332756
>>Some of Kyo's best combos involve cancelling A rekka after the second hit.
there's the whole "Locked into rekka stance until you finish the rekka so you don't accidentally crouch or some shit" thing keeping me from cancelling the move.
>>
>>315332487
Even without l-canceling and/or wavedashing the hitstun allowing combos, momentum following into your jumps, the ability to dash dance, etc makes it better. People get too hung-up on l-canceling and wavedashing as the only differences. they are easy to do anyway so I dunno why people hate them
>>
>>315332627
Playing with no items is not the main feature, either. I'm somewhat surprised the community never focused on stamina mode, to be honest.
>>
You turn on the game

you select a character

you go into an arena

you fight

=

fighting game
>>
>>315333594
>Disgaea is a fighting game now
ok
>>
>>315333594
Final Fight confirmed a fighting game.
>>
>>315333594
It's not as simple as that at all.
>>
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Melee/Project M is better than any of the other smash games, but I prefer playing sm4sh because I'm a casual.

So for me, melee/PM for spectator sport, sm4sh for participating. I don't really like brawl. Plus, I can fuck people as Palutena and the zard
>>
>>315333019
>>315333112
There's no reason you couldn't make tapping shield during the move get rid of the locked state early. Complaining that Smash specials don't auto-cancel into each would be pedantic though, though you can still play Project:M Lucario or Sm4sh Ryu if you're really that anal.
>>
Saying Smash is a fighting game is like saying Hitman is a third person shooter
>>
It's aa much a fighting game as HotS is a moba.
>redesigned a genre people won't normally go near
>easy to pick up
>super fun
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