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Are AAA first person releases ever going to start moving away

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Thread replies: 124
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Are AAA first person releases ever going to start moving away from having aim-down-sights (ADS) as a feature?

ADS works in some games like STALKER, ARMA, Metro, or really anything kind of slower paced and where each bullet is meant to matter more, but in fast paced hyperactive bulletfests, it just ruins the pacing and makes different weapons more samey than they really should be.

I know that "console players need ADS+autoaim to make up for joystick aiming" is the justification often given, but Halo is a major console title that doesn't use ADS. But other releases aren't following its lead in weapon handling design.

ADS really takes away a lot of the personality of weapons, both visually (in every COD or whatever, the scopes are interchangable and you are looking down a generic scope or red dot 90% of the time) and mechanically (recoil and spread).

Some games have weirdly even included ADS when the game design pretty much goes against the player using it, and when ADS wouldn't even be missed- thinking Borderlands and RAGE.

I'm currently replaying Far Cry 1, and it has the "Eye zoom'o'vision" instead of ADS. It seems a little hokey at first, but I got used to it and still like that over ADS.
>>
>>273134874
hello spraybabby
>>
ADS and hit-scan bullshit are two sides of the same coin.
>>
if you wanna play quake then play quake and stop trying to ruin every other franchise
>>
>>273135701
>ADS
>hitscan
>remotely related
WHat the hell is wrong with you?
Hitscan is how all weapons ought to work, with the exception of rockets/grenades/special weapons.
>>
>defending ironsights
>>
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>>273134874
>but Halo is a major console title that doesn't use ADS
>>
>>273136139
ADS babies are the same as hitscan babies.

Go fuck off to Quake and quit bitching.
>>
>>273134874

>Halo is a major console title that doesn't use ADS.

That's because movement in Halo is slow and floaty as shit so quick aim isn't important
>>
>>273136139
Hitscan killed Tribes.
>>
>>273136241
First one didn't
>>
>>273136161
>getting upset taht shooting in games is vaguely similar to shooting in real life
see
>>273136026
>>
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>camo beret
>>
>>273136328
Let me guess, you were born in 2002?
>>
>>273136241
*but Halo is a major console title that did not originally use ADS
>>
>>273136328
Not that dude but we're not playing realistic games here, that's the entire problem. It's essential in realistic games and it's mechanically degenerative in games that are supposed to be reasonably fast; all it really does is give the vague sense of realism without actually approximating real combat at all.

I mean shit if you want realism, play insurgency.
>>
>>273134874
>ADS works in some games like STALKER, ARMA, Metro, or really anything kind of slower paced and where each bullet is meant to matter more, but in fast paced hyperactive bulletfests, it just ruins the pacing and makes different weapons more samey than they really should be.
>where each bullet is meant to matter more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0nJGFUTI9A
>>
>>273136603
But insurgency isn't realistic.
>>
the fact that OP acts like ADS has no downside leads me to believe he isnt that skilled at fps to begin with.
Even in COD its best to hipfire unless you need precision
>>
>>273136139
>not liking bullet travel time
Continue being a pleb.
>>
>>273136776
It is closer than anything else video games have done.
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>>273136504
>muh quake
>>273136603
>we're not playing realistic games here
but you're not playing fast paced arena shooters either
irons are used in Borderlands and RAGE so they guns actually feel like guns, not because they're trying to be milsims
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>>273136903
Why do you keep mentioning quake?
>>
>>273134874
You have to be more specific OP.
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>>273136903
I find it perplexing that you bring up rage, which was just generally awful, and borderlands, which...is similarly awful but people think it's kind of funny.

I'm not op, incidentally, but I specifically am referring to games like CoD which actually is rather fast paced
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>>273137023
because people like OP are 99% of the time quake/UT purists
who for whatever reason want every FPS to just be clones of quake/UT
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>>273137163
see
>>273136805
>>
>>273134874
The problem with aiming down sight is that it's usually badly implemented since it's nothing like actually aiming down the sights of a real weapon due to a lack of spatial vision.
In flight simulators it works fairly well, since the player can actually move his head naturally, e.g. using track-IR or adjusting the head position manually in order to actually line up with the sights presented (e.g. in games like Rise of Flight using iron sights, or WW2 sims using reflex sights), in FPS however it's usually done really badly, since it's a binary action which "zooms in" the view, and obstructs most of the field of view with "sight". The idea that this was more realistic is nonsense. At least in the way it has been implemented up to this point.
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>>273137163
>I find it perplexing that you bring up rage, which was just generally awful, and borderlands, which...is similarly awful but people think it's kind of funny.
OP brought them up
>I'm not op, incidentally, but I specifically am referring to games like CoD which actually is rather fast paced
CoD used to be slower, you could argue that post MW2 CoD doesn't need irons but then it wouldn't really be CoD anymore
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>>273137251
So why have ADS to begin with except for a handful of guns that can be used at long range? Seems redundant, especially when they make a vain attempt to balance for it.
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>>273136845
It's actually kinda crappy in comparison with games like Arma. It's neither fully realistic nor does it provide a competitive challenge like games such as Quake, UT or Counter-Strike.
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>>273137349
Because some of us want variety in how we use our weapons? Especially for games that aren't super serious sims or mlgXpro bullshit.
>>
Why are class based FPS so much more fun than other FPS?
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>>273137607
Because you have a predefined role and are sometimes forced to use real teamwork to succeed.
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>>273137349
>So why have ADS to begin with except for a handful of guns that can be used at long range?
so they actually feel like guns?
>>
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>>273137349
It's a tactical tradeoff anon. Here I made a handy-dandy mspaint drawing to illustrate.
ADS lets you trade mobility & vision for accuracy, allowing you to squeeze out those last few yards of range or guarantee more lead on target when it counts.
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>>273137607
because you're shit.
>>
>>273137912
Oh, and also it takes half a second to bring the weapon up too. So you're trading mobility, vision, and trigger speed for accuracy.
>>
>remove fun stuff because stupid reasons

nah
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>>273138026
>ADS
>fun
>>
>>273138062
>hitscan
>fun
>>
>ADS
>AIDS
Coincidence?
>>
>>273138062
>ads
>not fun
Why do you think it's popular anon?
Maybe you're just autistic?
>>
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>>273138138
I think it's cute how you lose the ADS argument so you try to tie it to hitscan.
>>
>>273137912
The issue is that it makes no sense. It only artificially gimps the player by making the weapon magically inaccurate when not aimed down sight. A weapon should always fire the same. The sights don't serve to reduce spread, they should serve to help you aim. The problem is that in most games they don't actually do that, because games take place at really short distances where you don't even need to aim down sights. That is why developers build in an artificial bullet spread that wouldn't exist in the real world.

In flight simulators you actually NEED the sights in order to estimate distance and in order to tell where your shots are likely to go.

In FPS they ONLY serve as a meta element that magically reduces your bullet spread, but they don't actually help you aim, because at close enough distances, pretty much anyone could point at the enemy without having to aim down sights and still hit with reasonable accuracy.
>>
That's about as likely as kebab being removed
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>>273138274
I think it's cute that you think I'm the same person.
>>
>>273138314
Have you tried firing a weapon from the hip anon?
It's not as accurate as firing from the shoulder. Hipfire 'spread' simulates this.

This 'should' bullshit sounds like autism.

When you're in close-quarters, you're /supposed/ to hip-fire. That's the point.
>>
I was playing Bulletstorm recently, now thats a game that really didnt need ADS since its so fast paced that slowing yourself down to aim in a slide and kick simulator is no fun.
I generally dont tend to use ADS in FPS games, unless im sniping or the bulletspread is really bad. But yeah most of the time its 'zoom the camera in while slapping an ironsight overlay on your face.' But i think most of the time you can ignore it.
Btw what's hitscan exactly?
>>
>>273138364
You're all the same.
>>
>>273138748
Hitscan is no bullet travel time. They hit instantaneously where you're pointing.
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>>273138314
play RO2 or Insurgency
firing from the hip doesn't have random spread but your gun isn't centered either
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>>273135370
>any shooter with ironsights isn't for babbies
:^)
>>
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>>273138929
Do you have a source for this?
>>
>>273138864
Oh, I see, thanks.
The way I see it, fast paced games like arena shooters should use hitscan, and realistic shooters should use ADS with proper bullet flight time and proper aiming. But of course that requires having a realistic first person view where you dont see just your palms and when youre aiming you dont smack the gun right in front of your face.
I still find astounding that in most 'realistic shooters' you hold your gun so close to you that you can only see your palms. So youre either hugging it or its stapled onto your chest. Why cant developers get it right?
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>>273139202
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1aC4puK5R0
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>>273139202
>le me gusta meme
>>>/reddit/
>>
>>273138698
A weapon fires where it's pointed. What makes it inaccurate is not the weapon itself but your lack of ability to line it up properly - for which you use the sights. In a game the sights don't serve that purpose though, they're a meta-game element of reducing bullet spread.
>>
>>273138929
>>273138929
Lining up sights is again a binary option though, which makes it a bit unintuitive. Ideally they'd be making use of something like track-ir to move the head position in order to make lining up sights more life-like. The way it's now, it's simply a bit clunky due to the binary state. You either have the weapon fully down or fully raised. In reality, there would be intermediate states, e.g. having the weapon raised but looking above the sight, and so on. Reducing it to a binary state of fully down / fully raised (viewport obstructed) doesn't feel natural.
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>>273134874

>shoot without ADS
>like im pissing with a boner

>shoot with ADS
>pissing with a boner only that I'm Chuck Norris

ADS makes no sense in shoot em ups
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>>273139735
>shoot em ups
wat
>>
>>273139684
keyboards can only do so much
>>
>>273139413
Yeah, you've got the autism.
>Hipfire 'spread' simulates this.
Do you understand what 'simulates' means?
RO2 & insurgency would apparently butter your biscuit, but increasing the spread for hipfire is just a lazier way to accomplish the same thing anyway-
>without ADS your bullets don't always go where you're aiming

If you can't grasp this, I'm afraid I can't help you.
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>>273140050
It simulates it cheaply by taking away control out of the player's hands, introducing a random element.
>>
>this whole thread
Are you FUCKING SERIOUS
Are you all fucking 15? ADS is a TERRIBLE thing to happen to fps
And you faggots actually WANT THEM?
No fuck this i am done with this place being overrun by casual shitstains, i give up
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>>273140285
see
>>273136026
>>
>>273140251
For most players, read: plebs & casuals, it is functionally the exact same thing.
I agree the RO2 style hipfire is better, but I don't agree that ADS is useless/unfun.
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>>273137184
Nice boogeyman.
>>
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>>273140007
That's why flight sims tie your head movement to your actual head movement through track-ir. You can actually look around the sight, shift your head away from it, etc. - you have more spatial awareness.
It's not just a texture in front of your face - the sight has a location in space and you can freely line up with it in order to aim. It's used naturally, like a sight is used in real life. In FPS, sights are usually just used as a meta-game element which reduces spread - that's the only reason why people use it. If weapons were as accurate without it, people wouldn't aim down sights because all they do is obstruct your field of view. That's not what sights do however. Most FPS have failed to implement sights the proper way. This also has something to do with FPS not using proper ballistics of course.
>>
>>273141165
see
>>273140285
>>
You usually use guns by aiming down the sights. The act of lining up a shot and then shooting is fun and immersive.

ADS itself does not need to have any impact on accuracy or zoom or what have you. Halo had zoom long before it had ADS, and they both basically do the same thing in that game.

Other games implement ADS just because their executives are retarded and try to imitate Call of Duty, but poorly and often in only superficial ways.

Also, gun sights would be better in Far Cry. For instance, see Crysis.
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>>273141338
It's not realistic at all. It's not fun either, it slows you down.
>>
>>273140451
Nobody said anything about quake
>>
>>273141338
typical_underage.jpg
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>>273134874
ADS adds much more to the realism. Crosshairs should be removed entirely, it breaks the immersion.

I loved MGS 2 and 3 for this exact reason, the third person to move and fps mode to aim and shoot was simply perfect.
>>
slow paced, realistic shooters. ads are nice. either for immersion or for more stable shots. it can also be used to prevent spraying and run n' gunning in those games.

but they have ruined the competetative fps scene. they slow down games that are supposed to be fast paced. they're only there because "tacticool"
>>
>>273141814
You character should also need to piss and shit every few hours or your health goes down until you find a bathroom. Its realistic.
>>
>>273142282
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enb0zWbYUik
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>>273136831

Let's be realistic here. The average bullet travels so fast it may as well be hitscan if it was in a video game.

An assault rifle bullet can travel around a km in a second. In most of these games you're not even shooting at someone 50 meters away.

Lets put it this way. If you use an assault rifle, and shoot someone 50 meters away and the game is running at 60 FPS. It'd take 1 frame for the bullet to hit them.
>>
>>273142756
assault rifle bullets don't travel 1000m/s
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>>273142960

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

>Muzzle velocity: 3,110 ft/s (948 m/s)

That's on the low side for an assault rifle.
>>
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>>273142756
>The average bullet travels so fast it may as well be hitscan if it was in a video game.
Not in good fps games.
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>>273143116
>muzzle velocity
>>
>>273143302

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_velocity

>Muzzle velocity is the speed a projectile has at the moment it leaves the muzzle of the gun.

You're being retarded on purpose, right?
>>
>>273143116
Actually that's on the high side. Low side is ak-47 700m/s. Normal is 800-900.
>>
>>273141181
who gives a shit about that stupid shit
>>
>>273143398
read that sentence over and over and you might find what's wrong with it
>>
>>273138698
Hip firing is only done in movies. At no point is anyone trained to fire from the hip, they are taught to shoulder the weapon and then either aim with the sights or just point the weapon where you want to shoot. Both of which never result in bullets flying off in 45 degree angles from the gun
>>
>>273136845
It's modified call of duty. The only difference is the guns and damage, which isn't even that reliable. "Yeah I know you hit him in the face but he has heavy armor so he can take those 5 9mm bullets."
>>
>>273143398
The faster it's going the faster it slows down m80.
Here's a handy-dandy tool
http://www.handloads.com/calc/
>>
>>273143527
>Hip firing is only done in movies
gayboy
>>
>>273143406

AK-47s are a 70 year old gun that fires the significantly less powerful 7.62×39mm rounds as opposed to the more powerful 5.56×45mm rounds most assault rifles use.
>>
>>273143719
>And most assault rifles fall in the 800-900 m/s range
>>
ADS>>>>Hip Fire

Hip fire only shooters just lose so much immersion . Like if I'm in a tense situation I want to be aiming down sights, it just makes you feel so much more into the game. Like it adds another level of intimacy.
>>
>>273143148
Proper looking ballistics make my dick rock hard
>>
>>273143116
Muzzle velocity is the speed at which the projectile leaves the muzzle not the speed at which the round travels.

Please do more research. If you knew anything about physics you would know that the father a bullet travels the slower and more unstable it becomes. It losses is spin which makes it wobble increasing wind resistance slowing it down even more.
>>
>>273143810

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-74
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_AUG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAMAS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Tavor_TAR-21
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QBZ-95

Assault rifles used by modern military forces all over the world.
Only the AK-74 doesn't exceed 900 m/s.
>>
>>273144106

Ok. Let's use your logic.

Eventually every bullet fired from a gun will stop. Even if it hits nothing, it will stop due to air resistance.

Therefore I have concluded bullets don't move.
>>
>>273134874
Play a battlefield game on any of the large open maps.

THAT is why you need ADS.
>>
>>273144307
Battlefield doesn't have large maps.
>>
>>273144368
>Guaranteed console babby replies
>>
>>273144215
Congrats you are an idiot. Bullets travel in an arc do to gravity. I don't think i had to point out such a basic fact.
>>
>>273144368
They're so large that bullet velocity has an effect. In my book that's large enough for my point
>>
>>273144479

What does the trajectory of a bullet have to do with the velocity of it?
>>
>>273134874

As a person who loves arena style FPS's and modern ones, I honestly don't see the problem with ADS.

You could always not use it?
>>
>>273144583
Battlefield actually slows down the bullets
it's fucking stupid
>>
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>>273144441
>>273144542
Try playing a non-casual game sometime.
>>
>>273144583
You have to be baiting me. The trajectory is effected by the velocity.

Stay in school. This is basic high school physics
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>>273144215
Muzzle velocity lasts the instant it leaves the muzzle. After one millisecond it will have slowed down slightly, and then continues to slow down proportionately, as in the speed halves with each unit of time. Muzzle velocity means shit all as it doesnt travel at 1km a second for even a full second.
>>
>>273144627
>hurr durr physics
>why do bullets slow down its not as if air weighs anything
>is the earth flat
>>
>>273144792
I mean they're actually slower than their real life counterparts
I meant to quote the post above
>>
>>273144696
>he plays a game I don't like
>call him a casual

Try again without buzzwords this time
>>
>>273144696
I was talking about the replies from console baby's who think battlefields maps are big. They are just used to shit.

Trust me I play Arma.
>>
>>273144924
This and planetside 2 holy shit. Fastest velocity gun is like 550 m/s. Why can't video games ever do projectile velocity right? Arrows are not catapults either.
>>
>>273145147
>Why can't video games ever do projectile velocity right?
They do, but you call those games autistic.
>>
One game I'd say does ads well is BLR.
>>
>>273145206
No I call them please name some. I want to play them.
>>
>>273144924
Simply devs fucking with mechanics to make their games feel better. Arma 2 felt great for long range squad on squad hillside shootouts, but Arma 2 has an engine capable of carrying out those shootouts, whereas Frostbite cant render sniping at a distance where bullet mechanics should work properly, but gimped the speed to make the distance feel greater.

Instead, they end up with people used to realistic shooting wondering why each bullet moves so slowly
>>
>>273145380
nah the velocity was fine in BC2
they slowed it down and added more gravity in BF3
it straight up ruined the game for me
>>
>>273145376
Arma series and every recent realistic combat flight sim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cix07R1vlhI
>>
>>273145465
AFAIK its still gimped in BF4
>>
>>273136319
The pistol and sniper had zoom.

Halo doesn't strictly have ADS plot-wise, as the Spartan suits are connected to the guns and the idea is that your suit's visor shows you what can be seen through the gun's scope without holding it to your face.

This is why scope is traditionally a one-button command (right thumbstick) that is toggled on and off, and shows no animation.
>>
>>273145019
>Size != good

Depends on what you want to achieve with the game. Open world games wants give the feeling your travelling an entire sprawling world.

That's not the priority of battlefield. It's a multiplayer game so the pacing has to be faster, hence smaller maps while making it feel like a large scale battle. Therefor:

>Bigger maps than COD
>Smaller maps than GTA
>>
>>273145702

The minimum engagement range of most armed conflicts is larger than the largest maps you find in FPS games.

What's the point in getting within 20ft of someone when you have a gun that can shoot and kill them from 300 meters away?
Thread posts: 124
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