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Fuck this shitty-ass defensive game. I really wanted it to be

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Fuck this shitty-ass defensive game.
I really wanted it to be rewarding. I tried to play characters that move fast and actually hit things. I tried to like the complete lack of shieldstun, which renders approach options to tomahawks or lucky dash attacks. I tried characters who had followups in this no-hitstun game. I tried Falcon, Mac, Puff, Dong, the works. But it's just so fucking campy and bass ackwards that trying to play like it's an actual game as opposed to just shield-roll and wait that I'm absolutely sick of it. I see potential for play that is both engaging to watch and to play, but this campy shield/roll/projectile with no followups and super landing lag shit is fucking stupid. Sadly, given that defense is so easy, it's gonna become the dominant tactic, regardless of whether this faggot wants it or not. God dammit, fuck approaching in this game. Why even do it?
>>
Also, my bad if this comes across as blatant shitposting, but it's less of that and more of just a vent of frustration that I've been trying to hide for the weeks since this RV of a game came out.
>>
You're mad.
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>>268245432
I dunno. I guess I just have a more rudimentary understanding of the game, despite being a veteran of Smash 64 and being somewhat invested in the competitive scene, so, the only beef I have with the game is that knockback and hitstun are geared to make any and all combos literally impossible, and mashing guard escapes all remaining combos that the first point didn't obliterate.
Of course, you have to be smart enough not to mash dodge when being launched, but that's not enough to balance how easy defense is.
I suppose, in that sense, I can see how there is no offense. The whole game is hit and run. You CAN approach, but definitely not with a dash attack. Dashing into a grounded opponent will just get you perfect shielded into a no-blockstun grab or Puff Rest.
I think the air game is most important, especially considering how floaty everyone still is, and how much emphasis there is on recovering now that no one dies until 180% damage.
...I think the game has just changed, OP.
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>>268245724
I don't disagree, but the points I make are valid criticisms of a flawed game design:
Higher landing lag makes players hesitant to use attacks that could and would actually be good options.
Low shieldstun makes the options a person could do, even with no landing lag, a less favorable option than baiting out a mis-spaced dash attack.
Hitstun is obvious; true, legitimate followups are nigh impossible to perform, barring the few autocombos.

These changes wouldn't hurt anything. But, regardless I can't do shit. So this is part(most) rage, part why the fuck did Sakurai do this same shit again.
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>>268245940
It's a shame, man. It's really just like two changes to the game would make it infinitely more fun to attack.
BTW, I even got that Smooth Lander equip thing, and it's cool, but it's impossible to use because online and customs don't mix. Why that wasn't a normal feature, i don't know
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Melee still exists when you want an actually good smash game.
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>>268246226
>no online
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>>268246258
>Being a lonely faggot

I'm actually laughing at you.
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>>268246226
>>268246258
Not even the online; just the fact that Sakurai is still caught up in his old tricks again. The man made KI:U, which, once you get the controls, still isn't a game that handholds you and babies you with mechanics like these. It's a downer when you think about how much he doesn't care.
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>>268245432
git gud
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>>268246258
>dolphin
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>>268246258
There are local scenes like litterally everywhere right now.
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I'm still getting enjoyment out of it, but I agree with all of that. I'm not even a tourney player, but the defensive options are just stupidly beneficial.
>Friend tries his hardest to combo with falcon
>Dodge out of the second hit
>Woah man Sakurai wants you to have fun, but not that much fun.
I could honestly deal with the strong shields and rolls if Brawl dodging was axed and hit stun was increased to make the combo game a little more entertaining. Honestly I think the only reason I'm enjoying it is because I play Rosalina and she's a character that excels well in this defensive gameplay.

>>268246226
Always a valid point, but it's a shame that we can't get more enjoyment out of a game with a more fleshed out roster. Added hitstun isn't even a thing casuals would notice or care about in the game. Casuals loved Melee when it came around, I mean I was 10 when it was released for fucks sake and I loved it.
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>>268246378
Thought this would happen sooner. The problem isn't that it's hard, it's that the "mechanics" one needs to git gud at aren't fun ones. Who wants to hold L and roll and wait for their opponent while they do the same thing instead of getting to move around the stage?
Different strokes for different folks, I guess
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>>268246518
Would you believe that
>Woah not that much fun, guy
is actually a thing the local people and scene here say when combos fail in this game?
It's honestly more funny than the fucked up combo sometimes
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>tfw no more happy feet
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>>268246632
I kind of figured someone has said it before. It's just a natural response to mechanics like this. And like I said I'm no pro player. I just know actual fighting games so I understand what hitstun is.
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>>268246780
Where are we at now...?
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I'm glas you wrote all this OP, assuming you mean all of it.
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What the fuck do you want?

Opponents to be as killable as all-stars in normal difficulty? Two or three smash attacks and match over?
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>>268246967
I do. I just got off a spree of getting camped out by Yoshis, Palutenas, and the like. I was playing the original member of the DK Kroo. It didn't go too well, so I figured, hey, why not do this instead of playing like that
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>can't punish shield roll spammers
>blames the game

git gud you pathetic babby
>>
>>268247092

I think people are asking for the shield, or defense in general, not be the best option 90% of the time
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Okay, so I'm trying to get a smash lobby made here. Just post your FC and we can play. Mine is in my name.
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shields are way to strong
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Just add some shield stun and bring back dash dancing, then this game would be miles above Melee.
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use the items
they're there for balance
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>>268247092
Well, I can try and summarize what I, and now apparently some others see as flaws, and I hope you can see where I'm coming from on these:
The Blast Zones are fine. I don't care if I kill at 50% or 150%. What matters is options. People don't like "le melee tourneys" because they can show that they can wavedash or w/e. They like it because they can choose what to do; hence options.
What does options mean when I talk about Smash 4? Well, let's assume you're playing Falcon, a guy whose sole gimmick is to go in and beat shit. So you run in, and, in this game, what do you do? You can grab, roll, dash attack or jump, all of which are easily punished by the guy defending. You have to either be perfect at reads, or patient enough to make the other patient guy get stircrazy and come after you. People (minority) would rather both people have choices that have their own risks and rewards, instead of choosing "oh this move has the least lag gotta use it and then run away"
Hit and run can be fun, but in a game where only 50% of the hits actually occur, that can get boring.
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>>268245432
Here's how you counter those defensive players, git gud
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>>268247239
Sorry if I didn't make it clear (4 am, my bad), but I'm not pointing out that it's difficult or that I'm bad, which I'm not too keen on admitting at least in this game. It's just that if the metagame consists of simply punishing shield rolls, that's not fun. I'm not talking about my enjoyment, but the longevity of the game. Once again, my bad.
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>>268247493
>>268246528
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>>268247416
Dash dancing IS in Smash 4. Iirc, if you push the opposite direction within a few frames of starting the dash, it'll immediately cancel it and start going the other way.
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cry about it you fart smelling pussy faggot. I bet youre bad at every piss easy fighting game even marvel vs capcom. Consider yourself owned you little faggot bitch.
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>>268247665
I can actually vouch for this;
For Little Mac, at least, there is true dash-dancing. It involves pivoting on the endframes of the dash, and reverse foxtrotting or some crazy brawl mechanic.
If anyone's interested, here's the link:
>http://smashboards.com/threads/perfect-pivot-and-fox-trot-based-ats.371108/
good luck applying it, though.
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>>268245432
I have a couple problems

>stupidly long slide after a dash
makes your movement options feel limited and i wish you could do regular A attacks and tilts when you're sliding so you can approach with those. As a Ness main it also make comboing with the bat after PK fire really hard unless they're right in front of you when they get hit first. also feels clunky as fuck.

>Nintendo going out of their way to remove advanced tech and combos
this is just frustrating. Why, Nintendo, why? It's painfully obvious when playing that they're trying to make these things near impossible to do.

>Shield regenerate super fast
Probably my biggest complaint. Nothing like getting someone shield down and then having them roll around until it's full again two seconds later. If it regenerated a lot slower I think this could make overly defensive play less rewarding.

That said the gameplay overall is really fun especially if both players are aggressive.
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>>268247846
Exactly my point; you get two players who want to beat each other's shit in then it's fine.
But when one of those players wants to win, or wants the optimal strategy, 9 times out of 10 it's the defense way, which is a shame.
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>>268247092
Something tells me you don't actually understand how to actually play human players. It isn't just throwing out random smashes. We want>>268246780 and I know the argument could be made "how is the guy getting hit having fun"

He's having fun, because just witnessing play like that is entertaining and if his other teammate was alive and they played as well as the other team they could just as easily pull of shit like that. Fast games are just more entertaining.

Look at the MvC series, 2 is a clusterfuck of sprites with a horrible ratio of viable characters but the game is fast paced and the players are always dancing around each other. 3 is an abomination of bad ideas and glitches, but it's still played and watched because it's relatively fast paced and entertaining. This wasn't even the best example because I honestly think they're bad games, but Brawl and 4 are on the opposite end of bad design choices, just slow and in general dull to play and watch. Both games are just both players getting single pot shots on each other and flying back and forth off the stage and coming back. It's boring.
>>268247493
Great advice when getting good means being defensive. Which doesn't make for a fun game.

>All these opinions coming from someone that doesn't even know how to wavedash in Melee.
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>>268247665
But you can't "dance" with it, you just dash back and forth in pretty much one place.
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>>268245432
>play like it's an actual game as opposed to just shield-roll and wait that I'm absolutely sick of it.
This is what Smash is, and what it has always been, it's what everyone does and it will probably never change, complaining about this is just silly, complain about the shit Hackurai fucked up, like the speed, the character clones, the cut content, the lag, the terrible online, the exclusion of important competitive mechanics and the OP characters that NB didn't check.
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>>268247996
As shit as it is, it's there, which, once again, is a technicality, much like
>Hey guys. There's hitstun in this one. I promise.
And it's the BARE MINIMUM one could call hitstun. It's always 1 frame to short for any sort of decent followups. Having it in the game but useless doesn't equate to it being usable.
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>>268246528
There was some webms about a Megaman that laughed at some fuckers that were constantly shielding and rolling. I don't have it here, but he punished every roll and predicted every shield. It was just so fun to watch.

Shield and rolling are strong, and I'll admit sometimes too safe, but there are ways to punish that. When I play with CF, if I manage to land one hit, I'll probably be able to follow with two or three more.

Smahs combos are different from the other fighting games. I'ts not about "hitting leaving the enemy without answer", but rather "Hitting and tricking te enemy so you can follow up"
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>>268248080
I know it's silly, but I figured I could at least get a decent enough mechanics discussion going with the state of the game. It's weird considering a modern Smash with actual shield/hitstun. I just don't understand the mindset, especially in a game like this, where, even if someone is getting comboed, they can actually influence it and turn the tide in their favor at anytime. It's just puzzling is all
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>>268245432
as a huge melee fan, i felt the same exact way, just play a little defensive and you wont get as many sheild rollers, just keep playing and learn to adapt, I KNOW that youre pissed OP trust me I know, but I learned to adapt a bit and I got my win ratio from 20% to 60% after 400 matches. just keep at it and punsh shitty players.
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>>268248080
>waaaah clones!

>b-b-but it's okay if Melee does it because muh Melee!
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>>268248175
Seeing super hard reads is always exciting, because that is just an awesome enough concept that even in a game as defensive as this one can still see a level of superiority from one player to another.
That being said, a common misconception about Smash (specifically Melee) combos that people seem to overlook IS combo DI. I'm pretty sure you know what DI is, so basically, the whole jist of it is that at any give time both players are interacting, and the one who better reacts and knows the situation will always win. Infinites and marvel combos don't happen if the person is actively participating in the game, even though that's what it looks like.
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It isn't the game's fault that you're getting juked by roll spammers, Anon. It's easily punishable. Git gud, etc.
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>>268247951
There's some custom equipment people on the smashboards I think are discussing about using in tournament play. Hard braker is one I believe, makes it so you don't slide nearly as much after a dash. Smooth lander cuts your aerial attack lag down I think and there's another that makes it so can only airdodge once.

I really wish something like this would happen but then I'd still be bothered by the fact that when playing online (which is where most people will be spending a lot of time fighting) these options will not be there and neither will custom moves. Getting the items themselves imposes hurdle for players to overcome too and makes it less likely new players get into the scene.

I also feel like even casuals get bothered by ridiculous lag and bored of rolling around so much. It just seems more fun all around to have gameplay sped up by removing some of these slow actions.
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It's not that roll can't be punished, it's just that roll is still too safe. Sure, you can punish maybe 1 out of 5 rolls and still win the match since if they are rolling, they aren't attacking. However, that would take forever since you can't combo into anything once you punish them. So the match take forever to punish all those rolls. In previous smash game, you have a perform to good roll to get away, not the other person has a make a good guess and timing just to punish rolling.

Of course, popularity of projectile stemmed from how good the roll is and how much work it take to punish a roll that make close engagement so unsatisfying. A decent player can easily roll then dash and get away to spam more projectiles. Sure they get hit or grab once in a while, but since there's no following up and combo, they can easily recover back to neutral game with more roll and air dodge and projectile spam
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>>268248553
Nah man, I don't care about my personal ability at the game. Predicting rolls and dodging or smashing accordingly, while gratifying and with the possiblity to lead to some intense standoff scenarios, inherently leads itself into this defensive playstyle that is becoming prevalent. Apologies if the original point got muddled in the OP.
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>>268248175
I agree with this. True combos aren't what I'm looking for, just more follow ups opportunities. If the meta evolves in a way that no longer encourages overly defensive play then I'll be happy. I think we just need to uncover some new advanced techs like we did with brawl except this time the game is still a lot faster than brawl.
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It's painfully obvious that the devs consider rolls to be a newb friendly advanced movement option in addition to its actual purpose
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>tfw you realize you can easily defeat the enemies in Smash Run if you do it like you would on their original games (jumping on the Tikies etc)
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>>268248915
Those big-ass goombas never stood a chance against my patented Thunderthighs Falcon build
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>>268245432
play wario

bite shields

when they roll

fart on them

always win

never lose

rake in the shekels

have sex with a girlfriend of average attractiveness whose personality and cooking make up for it

live the dream

be the fat man
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>>268249021
>tfw now I just stomp on them
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>>268249043

This nigga knows what's up
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>>268249043
Been messing around with everyone, saw Wario, thought he could be neat, but never touched him. I might as well now, because it's not like I have anything to lose
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>>268245432
>it's not melee so it's shit, let's celebrate how we can't move on from our already stale game
>>
>>268245432
Darn, slower characters and faster characters are balanced. You can't just high-speed bullshit everything like Melee. I'm super sad.
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>>268246518
>>268245940
>>268245432
Crazy how everyone in real life is enjoying playing pretty much every character and killing between 60% and 120%. Maybe it just isn't a combo game. Every consider that for just one second? Try having a good neutral game and fundamentals. It's street fighter, not Marvel 3.
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>>268249331
I feel as if the message was misconstrued, so I like to think about it like this;
Smash is mindgames. Big fat reads, rolls, whatever. Well, if my opponent has to guess what I'm gonna do, wouldn't it make more sense to be able to do more instead of less?
Speed isn't the issue; if it was, then there would be more outrage. The problem stems from a misstep in mechanics, not speed. If you want further elaboration, I'm still hanging around here.
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>>268246780
How is that fun?

>>268247984
>playing defensively isn't fun
For you, maybe. For the 12 million Brawl players and the millions and millions of Smash 4 player is sure as hell is.
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>>268249260
some things to know about being fat

1) biting is the key to being successful. practice doing neutral+b reversals and also at flying in and descending at forehead height with your mouth open. the smart will will be afraid to stay in shield after a bit, the dumb will be eaten.

2) once people are afraid of being eaten they will attack pre-emptively or they will roll more. if they roll you can just land and bike or you can look for b-air or d-air hovers or whatever you want really.

3) in the rare case you end up on the defensive, remember that shield-dropping is so damn good and waft comes out quickly that shield-drop into waft is incredifat. its strength as a KO move means you will not be lacking for kills and its rare uptime means it will never be stale. enjoy KOing people at reasonable percents.

4) don't land with d-air or b-air unless you've actually hit your opponent with them, landing lag sucks.

5) people have an overwhelming tendency to jump after you connect with bites. bait the jump, then give them the clap or the boot. if they get to land, bite them some more.

6) mash B when biting for more nibbles.
>>
Well, I'm having fun.
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>>268249476
Street Fighter has combos.

Smash combo's were never fucking Marvel/Anime fighter levels of retarded. Stop thinking they were.

>>268249331
You still kinda do here
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>>268249476
In SF and its installments, the games' sets of rules has remained largely unchanged. Aside from the occasional new things (the discovery of combos, revenge Ultra meters, etc.) the formula has remained largely a Rock, Paper, Scissor type game, where you can block, attack, and throw. Developing neutral fundies is a necessity there. Flat stage, no interruptions, just you and your opponents with intense footsies.
People regard Smash as a different beast because of how different those base mechanics are, which is why the disparity happens. Of course, people enjoy chess more than DMC and vice versa, so I can't change opinions. But I can, at the very least, provide a rationale behind the thinking.
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>>268249531
No, I never liked combos in fighting games, and I'm glad high-level Smash is no longer 0-death combos like fighting games. Don't get me wrong, I love fighting games, even combo-fighters, but solid fundamentals and an invincible defense is more exciting and cool than "look at this button sequence I memorized" any day. Street Fighter over Marvel or ArkSys any day.
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>>268249662
Me too.
I'm just a concerned citizen, not a rabid fan.
I enjoy hitting bair strings as my main Dong. When I get fun matches, they're fun, so it's good.
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>>268247275
4613 8912 3007
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>>268249704
Yes they were. I've spent countless threads with people whining that combos in Smash 64 were touch of death, and "even scrubs could do it", and how Melee's big long combos were what made the game good. Bullshit, the speed was what did it. Combos made it painful to watch.

Comparatively, Street Fighter has little emphasis on combos with it's defensive gameplay, lesser movement options, and hefty damage scaling. Don't talk about what you don't understand.
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>>268249265

When will people give up on the "it's not Melee" strawman? Most people agree that Melee is old and busted at this point, but that doesn't mean Smash 4 is flawless.
>>
>waah it's not Melee

Get over it
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Rolling is a shit mechanic
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>>268250017
>>268250031
>12 seconds

Impressive.
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>>268249813
Oh OK. There's something that, on the surface, Smash doesn't open up to viewers about its "combos." There's this thing in the game called DI, which you probably already know about. Well, in Melee, while it looks like it's some guy using Marvel levels of insane 0-death comboing, the actual 0-death is very rare. The reason for it is that, on every hit in the combo, the dude getting hit as actually inputting a direction that he will go in, meaning that as marvel guy's comboing you, he has to guess which of the cardinal directions you're gonna angle towards, your percent, your character weight, among other factors.
The system itself is deceptively deep, and enthralling as an offensive, as well as defensive mechanic. Having the fundies and mindgames on the ground is essential, but having those same mindgames midcombo is key to survival as well.
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>all these niggas complaining about the defensive game
Y'all ain't got jack shit on my galaxian forward uptilt firehydrant rape.
Or my mighty meteor combos
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>>268249808
By that logic those same people that prefer Melee should love stage hazards and items, but rather than accepting a battle against both the opponent and the stage as a dynamic challenge every just bitches about flying man disrupting their fight.

Seriously, anyone who thinks they "shouldn't be fighting the stage" needs to just go to another game. That's what makes smash great.
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>>268249962
>>268247275
Adding you both
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>>268250162
Man, the Pac is still my favorite of the novelty/thirdparties, and I love that hydrant.

His smashes feel gud, and his fruit move is rewarding as fuck if you get the right ones.
>>
>>268250114
I know all that. I still prefer Smash 4 and even Brawl to Melee's high-level play. luckily, I and my friends, along with 98% of the other Smash players in the world, don't play at that level, so Melee is still a blast to play.
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>>268250174
Of course the argument could be made that, as Street Fighter evolved and implemented new mechanics, those new mechanics were embraced by the community. But the key difference here is that those new mechanics were key to making the game feel fresh; vanilla SF4's dual super meter and EX stuff changed the way one thought about guarding and punishing, but because that was a mechanic designed to improve depth.
As smash has gone through iterations, it has seen content updates (stages, characters, trophies, music) but little mechanical development. Imagine that if, instead of Capcom eventually adding parrying to third strike, they had instead along the series added superbly detailed background art, kickass music, flawless character animations, but the main mechanics had remained relatively unchanged from the second installment, aside of the inclusion of some neat characters (ArcSys comes to mind). That's the thing here.
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>be Shulk main
>faggot starts rolling like a ball on a slope
>down smash
>fucker goes airborne
>flail my lego lightsaber around in the air like I just dont care

Problem solved, for me at least. I do see where you're getting at, campy faggots that abuse the shit out of sheilds n dodges are rage inducing fuckwits. I can solve most of the problem with Shulk but I like mixing it up when I play 1v1 so not everyone has as easy an answer to that.
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>>268250179
Gotcha
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>>268250265
I completely understand and even agree. I don't give two shits about which game is "le faster or better", but rather I care for the people who want to see this cool game that they like grow and develop.
I'm not here to make people up in arms about BLAH SHIELD ROLLING but just express my belief in a mechanical misstep.
Rock on my Brawl player
>>
Honestly my biggest complaint is the fact that even with people's FC's you can't invite them to play with you. I have so many of you fuckers added and see you online but there's no way to let you know I'm ready to play some matches
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>>268250629
Shulk's a cool nigga. Have yet to finish up Xeno but running around in Speednado at the beginning of a match, switching to buster/smash depending on circumstances and working like that is a relief from the grind of catching that dumbass yoshi
>>
When will yu guys get its not supposed to be that serious ?
Its a lol so randon game, don't give it so much thought.

If you want competition play your fucking melee or project M.
>>
>>268250551
But the stages and items are major parts of Smash's gameplay and are both completely ignored by the competitive scene. And there have been major changes. Multiple air dodging makes aerial defense and offense an actual game rather than a single moment. The new ledge game and overall buff to recovery and knockback both made this new game's offstage game the most dynamic AND important yet. And so many items and stage are so unique and gamechanging that I could talk about them for hours.

But instead of adapting and playing differently, the fake "pros" on /v/ bitch about it not being the same. Instead of chasing their opponent off the stage when they knock them off it at 40% and trying to kill them, they bitch about the huge knockback, and say that "people don't die until 160%". Horseshit, you simply refuse to play the game beyond what you WANT it to be. It's like if people simply didn't use their meters in SF4.
>>
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>>268249043
it's a beautiful thing
>>
HOW TO MAKE LINK MAINS CRY
BE WARIO
EAT BOOMERANGS
>>
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>>268249043
>>
>>268250801
Sanic mode catches so many people on their ass that it makes me really hate that you cant carry momentum into jumps. Being able to deliver a mach 12 nair to people's faces at the start of a match with minimal startup would be so awesome.

Jump is surprisingly fun to use offensively. If you knock someone high into the far blast zones, Jump can get you up close and personal with them trying to come back so you can quickly deliver a killing fair. Super situational but always amazing when executed right. Also good for clutch as fuck recoveries.
>>
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I think the biggest problem is melee did so much right on the mechanical level that it only needed to be tweaked and improved on. Instead the series went in the complete opposite direction. The sweeping changes they made gameplay-wise, outside of the ledge, were largely unneeded and for the most part made the game worse. Not even mentioning how they went full retard with both items and stages. It feels like this series has lost its roots.
>>
>>268251042
The difference I've noticed between the talk and the people who actually play the game, is that, as it's gone on, people do go for crazy offstage gimmicks, like double weak knees or stage spikes, because at the end of the day, it's a game. A game that people spent years playing and mastering to the point of looking obsessive, but they know the ins and outs of on- and off-stage play.
The way they've developed the meta, however, after the last decade is subjective; you can see it as a departure from its roots as a silly party game or this infinitely deep crazy ass marvel sim or whatever. The interpretation is individual, which a lot of people don't get, y'know? I personally think mechanics are what drives a game towards what it strives to be, while others claim the overload of content is what makes it stand out among the crowd. I personally dislike items not because I hate the effort put into them, but because my group of goons likes beating the shit out of each other and rubbing in skill differences, but we're shitheads anyway. My little sister likes it because she can hit stuff as a bigass turtle lizard dragon and throw bombs at stuff and I still play with her whenever I get back around. It's what's important to the player.
>>
Case closed.

I am now Fat Mario. thanks /v/
>>
>>268251216
HOW TO MAKE LINK MAINS CRY
CHARGE A SMASH ATTACK AS THE BOOMERANG RETURNS
>>
>people are trying to petiton to smashboard mandatory use of the "smooth landing" equipment

seriously?
>>
>>268251309
I did a fucking round robin as everyone in for glory and other smashes and every character has something I enjoy. Doing that I also learned stuff they can't do which led to many, many shulk deaths because I can't into upb during muhnadoh arts
i got better
>>
>>268251678
MY METHOD ANNOYS BOTH TOON AND VANILLA LINKS
>>
>Play with friend who doesn't do anything but do specials. He just spams shit like Mario's fireball or Dedede's spiky ball. Over and fuckin over.
>Claims that he's "not spamming"
>This is how "fighting games" are meant to be played
>"Have you heard of, ahem, this thing called zoning? Yeah, spamming isn't real because zoning already exists. That's what I'm doing. I am zoning you. Have you heard of the Street Fighter series? You must not like it."
>I play SF a shit ton
>When I asked him about it last week he said "Isn't that the thing with sub-zero"
Holy shit how do I kill this motherfucker. Also, everytime I die to his bullshit he spams taunts. Not just any taunts. His taunts are Two Best Friends Play quotes. It's the most autistic thing i've ever seen.
>>
>>268251485
it's funny, dispute my talk of how items on is the true way to play, I do love my no items fights, too. My group of friends is the same way. They're fighting game players and love to go one on one, no items, Omega mode every time. But I sit there and often say "so when are we going to mix it up with the stages? Custom movesets? Items on?" so some of them seem to have the crazy idea that I HATE having items off. I don't, I just like variety. I like the chaos and the fun, that's why I love Smash. You can have both! ALL OFF IT!!!

So it is sad to see so many people shit on the games when they go and give us exactly that, simply because their idea of what they wanted from a small section of the game doesn't line up with reality.
>>
>>268251787
FUCK TOON LINK
>>
>>268251680
People will go to silly lengths for what seems like utopia without proper discourse.
It's a fucking shame that people can't see that, as it is now, the 3DS version is the one as it is, and, as much as I have been posting in this thread, no amount of mechanics discussion or polling or whatever will change the fact that it is what it is. People just wanna go fast as more people, and they can't.
>>
>>268251885
Real men play saturns and homerun bats only
>>
>>268251864
He's the guy people warn you about. The guy who spams Pikachu's down-b and special.
>>
>>268251885
Wow, so many typos... It's time for sleep. Good talk, objective/understanding bro. May your smashes be hype and your favorite characters get in as free DLC with the Wii U version.
>>
>>268251929
YEAH EAT THEIR BOOMERANGS
CLAP THEM INTO THE HEAVENS
>>
>>268251961
You know, I JUST learned now what Mr Saturns are for. Years upon years of Melee, Brawl, and now this, I know everything there is to know about every Smash game otherwise, but I just never really thought to look into it. I just thought they were silly items for the fun of it.

Shield breaking. Who knew?
>>
>>268251885
It's crazy the amount of customization you can do to your experience. From stages to items to characters, to the now recent customizations, it's ludicrous. I haven't met a single person who plays "competitively" who didn't just wanna sit down during friendlies and do a big ass temple map with items on high sometimes. This strange stigma that i've seen isn't what I'm familiar with since I don't roll in this too much, so I just thought it'd be nice to have a discussion about what makes a game like this enjoyable, while at the same time discussing what could be done differently simply because curiosity isn't always a bad thing.
>>
>>268247846
>stupidly long slide after a dash
The best part about this is that it's not roster-wide. Go play Bowser or Jigglypuff. They act act instantly after you stop running due to their almost non-existent sliding animation. You can run up down tilt with Bowser, dash dance with Jigglypuff, etc. If all characters were like that it'd be a better game.
>>
>>268252014
>>268252143
Yeah man it's like 5 am now I've been OP for like 3 hours now.

Later, and split some heads in whatever you do.
>>
>>268247846
>Nintendo going out of their way to remove advanced tech and combos

This bothers me so much. So many interesting setups that I thought were combos turned out to be easily avoided by good Nairs. Moves in this game do not have follow-ups strongly enough with the exception of some characters.
>>
>>268251864
>Holy shit how do I kill this motherfucker.
I assume you mean IRL, I hope you seriously arent having trouble killing a faggot spammer like this
>>
>>268252209
I feel like it just needs to hit a tightrope sized uh rope with an elephant and maintain balance somehow;
Every character in smash has their own qualities that made and make them special, like puff's unmatched air stuff or falcon's speed, but those all unintentionally balanced out to fair, and even matchups were developed.
I just wish that the different characteristics weren't as drastic as they are, like some characters get armor or invincibility randomly during moves (dk has this during his transfer to cargo throw; try it).
it's just this intangible quality I can't put into words but it would feel right to a lot of people if it were done right
>>
>>268252483
I do mean IRL nigga
>>
>>268251994
>spamming thunder in sm4sh

shit got nerfed hard
>>
>>268251864
As the pissed OP, the only way to revel in the rage is to stoop as low as you need to go before you win and continue doing so.
Much of what happens is I either switch between Puff, DK, ROB, Falcon, or Pac, or I just say this Yoshi asshole is fuck and I go Mac and mindgame the shit out of it.
Is Mac cheap? If you can read, then he stomps. Maintaining central stage control is key to any smash, and moreso for babby's first boxer. Whatever path you choose you gotta go do it and do it hard.
>>
>>268251885
Tfw everyones been picking FD versions of stages because they like the Omega gimmick
tfw no platforms ever, just wide flat stages that favor projectiles and groundbased characters (coughlittlemac)
>>
>>268249612
>For you, maybe. For the 12 million Brawl players and the millions and millions of Smash 4 player is sure as hell is.
>Millions of players.
>Casuals that just charge random smashes, play free for alls, any stages like New Pork City
Those are all things they could do in Melee(outside of New Pork). Do you not understand that Melee was a good casual game too? I get that the argument is "Well the game sells regardless of your opinion so you just have to deal with it :^)"

The problem is that it just spites more serious players in favor for the people that didn't even notice the shift in gameplay from Melee to Brawl. Like if 4 suddenly played like Melee those MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of people that play the game would still buy it because they can still claw Pikachu a new asshole as Bowser.
>>
>>268252840
As much as people don't like to admit it, it's just that it's a lot easier to hit X and then A on the stage select than it is to go look for a suitable stage that people won't get pissed at BS for, while still maintaining an air of not tryharding.
There's coolio stages, but they're stuck between reused brawl and gimmicky scrolling.
>>
Well this was fun. I got a good deal of valuable insight into my definitions of mechanics and gameplay for this kids party game.
I'm OP, and yes I'm a faggot. Later losers
>>
>>268245432
OP, what you fail to see is the better the match the shorter periods there are for 'playing defense.' A nigga will rush upon you so fast you will either have to run away or take advantage of the situation and your enemies exploits. I could go on for ever, but the truth is you're a faggot. I could care less for caring to explain it to youl. Thread closed.
>>
>>268252943
>people that didn't even notice the shift in gameplay from Melee to Brawl
Game reviews say otherwise. Melee was criticized for being too fast/difficult, Brawl had higher scores in gameplay overall. Not to mention that the casual players on the Wii are drastically different to that of the Gamecube.
>>
god
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24715796
>>
>spergs mad that game for children is made easier for children to play
>>
you know what else pisses me off? sudden death fags. fags that fucking wait the clock out. fucking faggots.
>>
>>268257093
If it's sudden death or lose, I'll take the sudden death. But because I don't generally play like a faggot I've had two games go to that out of about 500
>>
>>268248808
I've spoken with people who've played both 3DS and Wii U versions and think the 3DS version is absolutely unsaveable shit.
They told me the Wii U version is a LOT better, and not just because we have GameCube controllers for the Wii U version.
>>
>>268257353
I don't know why, but I feel that the 3Ds version is...different from the WiiU one.

Like, if you tell me the WiiU version is and HD version of the 3Ds with a GC controller, I'll tell you that "it shouldn't be that way".

I dunno how to explain it, but I feel that. The 3DS is a great version and works incredibly well, but the WiiU shouldn't be like this.
>>
Smash 4 is good, but Brawl Minus is the most fun Smash game. IMO, anyway.

Anyone here play Minus?
>>
>Playing 1 v 1 for glory
>having a great combat, we're even
>You really can't tell who's going to win.
>suddenly, lag spike
>Opponent gets replaced by a computer

Man, I hate when this happens and I'm having a good fight.
>>
I once got KOed by the computer that replaced my opponent
>>
>>268257926
I've never had this happen before. you know what's interesting though? I find that I lag a lot less when I play at night against the Japanese people. Odd that I lag less against them as opposed to the americans when i play in the morning/noon.

captcha - 1337
>>
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>>268249043
Don't forget Wario's crazy physics.
>>
>>268250010
Touch of death isnt Marvel/Anime only you retard. The problem with those comboes is they take for fucking ever and get hits into the double digits constantly and in marvel's case, triple digits.

Street Fighter always had TOD since Combos were even a thing. Street Fighter 2 had 100% comboes all over the place. 3S Makoto was a walking 100% on the entire cast. The fact you think 4 is the series in general makes me think you got started in 09.

Smash's Touch of Death was only really prevalent in 64, and they didn't really reach last that long at all. 64 was also quite good, and its the slowest game in the series, so no, speed wasn't the only reason they were good.

So dont speak, or talk down on stuff you don't know shit about.
>>
>>268245432
Maybe try to play a real fighting game instead of pretending you play one, that may fix the problem.
>>
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>>268258231
My nigga
>>
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Ness player here. I still have to buy Smash 4, I'll probably wait for the Wii U version at this point.

How's Ness in this game? Nerfed?
>>
>>268259754
He has some glaring weaknesses but you can do well with him online
>>
>>268259754
His main weakness, which is his unreliable as fuck recovery, never get buffed. If you are a god with controlling his recovery then you'll be fine I guess. It just kinda suck that every other characters get even easy mode auto sweetspot ledge grab while you have to struggle with that. Other than that, there's nothing that make him worse conpared to his previous self
>>
>>268251929

Bitches can't handle my toon link online. feels good
>>
>>268260235
His PK Thunder actually goes through opponents if they try to gimp it as soon as it comes out, and it's a bit faster as well, so it did get buffed actually.
>>
>>268260937
No shit they can't handle it when you fuckers flip on your lag switch every time you lose a stock
>>
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>>268261407
> implying
>>
>>268258814
>stop playing unique games
>always play the same street fighter rehashes
>tekken is dead
>animu fighters have a dead scene
>amerifat fighters are clunky as shit and LOL worthy
>>
>>268262016
I've played 3 different Toon Links today that started lagging the moment I took their first stock, every other game has been completely fine.
>>
>>268262181
>nintenbaby using "rehash" as an argument
hahaha oh wow
>>
>>268258814
Only MAHVEL will fix his problem.

A lot of people complained that SF4 was too campy and favored defensive play compared to 3S. Luckily that had 5 expansions full of YOLO characters such as Yun and Decapre to fix the issue somewhat.

Injustice is a camp-fest compared to MK

SFxT was the pinnacle of laming it out and waiting for the timer.

Fighting games on the whole have moved to a "sit and wait" mentality. Smash Bros is just the latest game to favor defensive play.
>>
I hear you op this shield shit is making for glory boring as fuck. I just wanna play with the other player not roll on the ground for 5 minutes. I played against sheik we ran out the clock fucking rolling around.
>>
>>268245432

I've only played about 4 hours of it.

I really don't like the control scheme on the 3DS, but I'm confident all my problems with it will be solved by having an actual controller and a screen that I can see what's going on
>>
>>268262352
>street fucker using this as an excuse to eat more crapcom shit

:^)c
>>
>>268246226

It's pointless to argue about Melee on /v/. You and I know it's the best Smash game. Even Sakurai said it's the "sharpest" of them all. When it comes down to it, /v/ is filled with casuals and hate the tourneyfag boogeyman only because they're better than them.
>>
we all knew this was going to happen, but everyone ignored it
sakurai just doesn't see smash as anything more than just a party game, and that's never going to change
>>
>>268250174
It's part of what makes Smash great, sure. But another part is that it's not the only way it can be played.
>>
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>being mad that a party game plays like a party game
>>
Fuck Rosalina. Fuck her.
>>
God, thank you OP. I'm sick of this shit too. There's no rewards to be had for people who actually bother to practice things in this version of Smash. People get rewarded for Mashing A and their shitty connections since the game is all about edge guarding now and it's really hard to edge guard and keep people off the stage when they can recover 2 pixels away from the blast zone at the bottom and I can't even fucking see what region the person I'm playing with is from so there's no way for me to avoid connections from Australia or Japan. The game has really turned into baby shit for no reason. You would think after 13 fucking years, Sakurai would have thought that if Melee was so successful, you would make another game like Melee or remake fucking Melee, not make Sm4sh more like Brawl which everyone had a million problems with.

How the fuck am I supposed to play anyone but the top characters when everyone who's not near the top has shit recovery? I hardly get rewarded for good positioning anymore.
>>
>>268266904
see >>268265970
>>
>>268251347
No it hasn't. Its still a party game, just as it's ever been.
>>
>>268266904
>You would think after 13 fucking years, Sakurai would have thought that if Melee was so successful

But Brawl outsold Melee. Sakurai is meant to make games that sell. Brawl sold the best. Sm4sh has a shot at outselling everything since it's on multiple consoles. If each game outsells the previous one, why would he change the formula? Clearly it's working. Brawl sold 12 million copies. Smash's biggest streams average around 50k. The fact is that the pro fanbase is so laughably small that they could all boycott the next game and it wouldn't put a dent in sales.

I guess in short, this >>268265970
>>
>>268266904
The fact that you think 1% of the Smash playerbase that are Meleefags = everyone just shows how out of touch you are with the real world.
>>
>>268267906
Can you please explain why edge gaurding and shield rolling constitutes this as a party game? Seems like turtling in fighting games.
>>
Melee was an accident that's never going to happen again. Let it go you stupid fucks.
>>
>>268268537
>shield rolling

Oh shit this game has dodges, it has the deepest mechanics ever. m8, those aren't exactly the most technical of systems. Even casuals playing a party game can grasp those concepts. It's not exactly Guilty Gear.
>>
Smash is a casual game

I don't know why people act like these games are so deep
>>
>>268269206
Because Melee proves it can be deep/
>>
>>268269317
So play Melee forever
>>
>>268269490
But people want to move on
>>
>>268269781
>Meleefags
>Wanting to move on

Funniest fucking thing i've heard all week
>>
I never understood this complaint.

>everyone is defensive!

yet why is no one going for risky, satisfying wins?

You know what? I notice people want "safe kills"
>>
>>268269943
Why do you think that PM is a thing? Why do you think Brawl had a huge scene for a while?
>>
>>268270202
PM is shit
>>
>>268259754
This is by far the best Ness we've seen in a Smash Bros game.
>>
>>268264837
Yes, exactly this. In terms of mechanics, it's the best game by a long shot.
In terms of playstyles though, it's not.
>>
>>268270503
No he isn't. Better fair, back throw and dash attack doesn't make up for worse overall aerials, tilts and smash attacks.
>>
>>268269206
>I'm too stupid and ignorant to understand how a game can be deep
>Better call it casual!
>>
>>268246953
Underrated post
>>
>>268267906
Brawl outsold Melee because the Wii sold a fuckton more consoles than the GameCube, you dense shit.
The attach rate of Melee to the GameCube is way, way bigger than the attach rate of Brawl to the Wii.
>>
WHY DO PEOPLE SHIIIIEEEELD
>>
>>268270652
Yes he is. Overall, he is better than any previous incarnation of Ness in Smash Bros.
>>
>>268270829
Because, son, on a very basic level, Smash Bros can be boiled down to Rock-Paper-Scissors, but with Grab-Attack-Shield.
Attack beats Grab, Grab beats Shield, Shield beats Attack.
>>
It's kind of cute seeing you pseudo-fighter babies getting bad at your first obstacle. Turtling is one of the oldest tricks in the book, and if you can't step-up to it in fucking Smash Bros. of all places then you should consider dropping out of competitive video-games all-together.
>>
>>268271050
>smash
>competitive

AYYYYYYYYYY
>>
>>268270652
I don't like his aerials in this game either. The feel a lot more satisfying in Brawl.
>>
Only two problems with this game really stick out at me.

1. rapidfire jabs can lock you down for way too long

2. They still haven't made melee's L-cancelled landing lag the standard landing lag

Everything else is fine, or at least meh. I mean, I'd also rather that Olimar could still be fun to play, but changing characters is just part of the Smash experience
>>
>>268270969
>Rock-paper-scissors
Oh fuck you. You can apply that observation in almost every fighting game, but it doesn't mean it is luck based. Learn to read and telegraph your opponent, and stop blaming your own faults on luck or things that you THINK are out of your control.

Holy shit, git gud.
>>
>>268271050
>competetive gaming

Literally the lowest form of fulfillment possible. It's like competing to see who's the loneliest
>>
Jigglypuff is still king of the skies, still can aerial out of a short hop and midair jump afterwards

All is right in the world, whiners be whiners
>>
>Landing punish: the game
It's not even as good as Brawl as a party game because you need a console with the game per player. The portability aspect saves the game for me but I can see why others would have trouble finding things they like about it.
Still excited for the WiiU version, especially if that supposed board game mode turns out to be true.
>>
>>268246226
>melee
>not PM
>>
>>268270761
Exactly you dumb fuck. My entire point was that the number of casuals that have a passing interest in Smash far outweighs the number of pro players. Brawl outsold Melee because the casuals bought it. The melee fanbase is miniscule and can't hold the franchise up by itself. Sm4sh will sell because the casuals will buy it on their 3DS whilst the "hardcore" will buy it in much smaller amounts on Wii U.

Smash is a casuals series bought by casuals players. That is exactly why Nintendo will never make Melee 2, because they want to make a game primarily to sell to everyone and it works. Sm4sh will sell better on 3DS, Brawl outsold Melee. Why? Because more casuals bought the Wii and 3DS over the Wii U and Gamecube and they're the people Nintendo are targeting, not the MLG pro crowd.
>>
>>268271382
He says, while critiquing a party game on 4chan - /v/.
>>
I grew up with smash bros, I played the shit out of brawl, 64 and melee
I actually prefer brawl or project m over melee
And I am probably going to have a lot of fun with SSB4
I main Ganondorf, feels good to be the 1%
>>
>Hop towards opponent as Ganondorf
>side-B right in their face as they shield

This should not work as well as it does, but for some reason everyone tries to roll away or jump
>>
ITT: people too casual to play real fighting games bitch that smash bros isn't trying to be a competitive game
>>
>>268272078
What is a "real" fighting game?
>>
>>268271596

I actually do prefer PM to Melee, but then again that's because I can play my character without getting 0-death chaingrabbed by half of the cast.
>>
>>268271173
I'm not saying it's luck. What are you on about?
I'm merely making the comparison in terms of there being a three-way triangle in terms of one thing beating another but countered by the third option.
>>
>>268272168
Dark Souls
>>
>>268272078
I'd rather play competitive Smash than competitive Tekken.
>>
>>268271596
The game feels pretty much like a trippingless, slightly faster, better balanced Brawl in theory. In practice though, dodging and shielding are even more prominent here because they're even safer, but that makes bad players predictable and easily punishable.
>>
>>268272224
I prefer it because Ivysaur is stupid fun to play in it.

I also see less Foxs, Falcos and Marths when playing it.
>>
>>268271582
Even back when I was a casual Smash player, Brawl was shitter than Melee, because of the speed, the tripping and the general lack of options. Sure, it's fine as a "mad havoc with 3 other people" game, but it's just not as fun to play as Melee.

The Wii had a much, much, much bigger customer base than the GameCube did and yet it only sold about 5 million more than Melee did. That's absolutely crazy. For a game supposedly aimed at casuals, it sure as hell didn't appeal to that many more of them, despite the significantly increased install base of Wiis. The attach rate of Brawl to Wii pales in comparison to Melee to GameCube.
>>
>>268245432
Are you a real faggot? Suck more dicks
>>
>>268272521
I love playing as Squirtle in PM. I don't prefer PM to Melee, but I like that I can play in widescreen without widescreen codes or whatever.
>>
>>268272453
Too bad they had to bring back the shitty airdodging and revert Falco to his samey-feel

Also brining L-cancelling back was entirely unnecessary, there's never a reason to not L-cancel
>>
>>268272731
Air dodging should be a last resort thing.

And making Falco "samey" is better than having him kick the reflector for no reason. They should've at least try and fix his Brawl fair and improve his utilt at least.
>>
How do you punish rolling? Playing as Mario against a lvl 9 CPU is already hard. All you can use is standard A and side A and even side A gets punished and Sheik can throw attacks all over the place.
>>
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>>268245432
Meh, in all games I play I like to outlast an opponent and counter rather than assault and go for mad combos. I only attack if I see a perfect opening for that with very little chance of being hit back. So SSB4 is finally a fighting game that I truly enjoy.
>>
any EU PM players that want to play? I'm longing for some smash after not playing for 2 years and I just got PM working last night.
>>
>>268272521

I just like playing Roy. I can't play him in Melee though because he's awful.
>>
Well it's sad because
1) Up recoveries for almost all characters to hide the 3DS stick thing.
2)Defensive gameplay that's why Rosalina #1 at the moment. (Camp, projectiles, they see me rolling they hattin...)
3) Can't do premade to play online in 2v2
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