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C sticking

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Thread replies: 199
Thread images: 25

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FACT: REAL MEN DO NOT USE C STICK IN COMPETITIVE SMASH BROS!
>>
Lie. You've never been to a tourney.
>>
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>>
BUT I FUCKED YOUR MOM LAST NIGHT!

-Anonymous
>>
>>262081575
But i used cstick when i played casual 7 years ago
Never knowing how to shield grab, l cancel, or even dodging out of a ledge
>>
Hell, I'm a filthy casual and I don't use that thing.
>>
>>262081575
>implying
>>
>>262081575
Even a slight tilt on the left analogue alters your jump momentum so how else do you do a bair while jumping forward without losing forward momentum?
>>
>>262081575
I never used it, just felt weird to me, but so did jumping with X or Y but i use that all the time now.
>>
Depends on the character. If you play as Marth, c-stick is helpful. If you play as Fox, you're gonna want to be faster than that.
>>
>>262081575
>3DS smash bros
>Having to wait for the New 3DS to play it properly

It's a good thing I don't have a 3DS yet
>>
C-sticking is for amateurs!

FACT
>>
I've slowly begun to use the c-stick with Falcon.
I was able to deal with short hop up airs well enough without it, but dairs would require me to ascend beyond the mortal world.
>>
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>real men
>competitive smash
>>
FACT: REAL MEN REALIZE SMASH IS JUST A PARTY GAME AND PLAY WITH ITEMS BECAUSE IT IS MORE FUN
>>
>>262082289
What did you use before, the analog stick?
>>
>>262085176
Fact: Any game with local multiplayer is a party game.
>>
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>play wolf
>c-stick right
>c-stick right
>c-stick right
>get to the edge of the stage
>c-stick left
>c-stick left
>c-stick left
>get to the edge of the stage
>c-stick right
>repeat til win
I only do this when I'm playing against a baddie and I'm too lazy to use my left hand.
>>
I like jumping with the Y button, it feels wrong not to use the C-stick.
>>
I've played smash for my whole life. I literally never knew c-sticking was a thing until a month ago.
>>
>>262085326
I thought we were talking about the C-stick?
>>
>>262081575
You've never been to a tournament. Fact.
>>
>>262082703
>not knowing double stick DI
>not knowing Peach hovering one way while doing an opposite direction aerial
>not knowing that with c stick you can easily dair without fastfalling
fucking novice
>>
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>PLAY SINGLE PLAYER
>C-STICK CONTROLS THE CAMERA INSTEAD

what the fuck are you doing sakurai
>>
I have never used a gamecube controller, is it true its dpad is very bad? I bought a Wii U and it is my first console since I was a kid and had a SNES.
I don't know if I should buy Smash Bros alone or with the Gamecube controller.

If I played street fighter in arcades for half a decade I shouldn't have a hard time getting into this game, right?
>>
>>262086861
Wait, what? I know this happens but I can't think of which game
>>
>>262087006
Yes. D-pad is shit.
>>
>>262087006
Don't worry about the D-Pad, its only use in Smash is taunting.
>>
>>262087006

It's terrible for controlling a character, but you don't really use it in Smash.
>>
>>262087006
here's the thing about the gamecube controller

if games were made with that controller specifically in mind, they control like fucking MELTED SMOOTH ASS BUTTER

every GC exclusive that was built around this controller feel fucking amazing, Melee being one of the best examples

also the d-pad doesn't even control your character so it doesn't matter
>>
>>262087151
No, the d-pad is fine. You just don't use it for control beyond taunts in smash.
>>
>>262087240

Ok then. I think I will get that bundle.
>>
>>262087156
>the d-pad is fine
>literally the smallest d-pad ever made
>>
>>262087006
It's fine for what it's used for in Smash. GC games have fucking great controls.
>>
>>262081575
>competitive smash

what's next? Competitive Candyland? Competitive patty-cake?
>>
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>>262082289
>Pressing up to jump
>>
>>262087426
I didn't say the D-Pad was fine, I said it had barely any use in Smash.
>>
>>262087592
So you did.
Carry on then.
>>
>>262087030
melee
>>
>>262087426
not him but it's functional. an example of a bad dpad is the xbox 360 original one.
>>
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>>262087732
Oh, right.
Yeah, I remember that shit now.
>>
Is this thread a professional fishing tourney? Cuz theres a shit ton of bait in here.
>>
>>262081575
FACT: I PARTICIPATE IN REAL TOURNEYS AND PLAY TRYHARDS AND TOURNEYFAGS. not one myself i just go for the fun of playing challenging players. TOURNEYFAGS WILL DO LITERALLY ANYTHING TO WIN, BE IT LEDGEHOG OR SPAM THAT C-STICK!
>>
>>262087914
It's also the game with the fucking bullshit "CATCH A BOB-OMB MIDAIR AND THROW IT BACK" cpus when you put them on Very Hard mode.

How the fuck I beat All Star Mode on Very Hard without continues as a kid is just unfathomable. I can't even beat classic mode anymore.
>>
>>262088180
You didn't have anything else to do? That's what people have always told me when I said that.
>>
>>262088282
I have nothing to do right now but I'm on /v/ at 2:39am.

I'm trying to play Melee on very hard right now but I just don't know what compelled me to git gud enough to the point that I could beat that shit. I'm pretty sure if I took on my 15 year old self in Smash I'd get 4 stocked.
>>
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>tfw youre no longer the best at smash amongst your friends
>>
>>262081575
Try and stop me faggot.
>>
>>262088635
nah. unless you haven't played smash in years its just cause your playstyle changed to fight human players instead of bots. bots play way differently than humans 15 year old you was good at bots but probably mediocre at humans. current you is hopefully decent against humans but rusty on bots. don't feel down. there's a new smash bros coming in under a month. get ready for some serious fun.
>>
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>>262089623

>tfw you struggle to find people to play locally

At least I have online.
>>
>>262089873
>already preordered my little plastic sparring partner
Not even mad, those figurines look top quality.
>>
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>>262089623
>tfw you're still the best among your friends
>that one guy who comes over uninvited to play smash
>gets pissy when he loses
>>
>>262087006
The Dpad is one of the best, but it's smaller than your fucking pinky finger.
>>
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>>262090505

>tfw you're tied for the best at Smash with two other friends
>there's a few others that are decently close and try for the crown hard and are good matches but everyone else is just so clueless and bad you have more fun watching them play against each other unless you purposefully fuck around

At least I have my few good friends to practice with.
>>
I never really liked the use of the c-stick. In melee it controls the camera in singeplayer, so it seems like a strange thing to allow competitively.
>>
>>262081575
Real men don't use a purple controller.
>>
My friend took out the control stick on his controller and replaced it with another c-stick from another controller.

Real men use 2 c-sticks
>>
>>262081575
Aha oh my god what a fucking scrub you are.
>>
>>262081575
>>
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>>262090793
>tfw starting to get pretty good
>placing top 5 in locals now
>unexpectedly feel bad when I 4 stock the shitty players in tournament early in bracket

all of my training did not prepare me for this
>>
>>262087006
Planning on buying a wii u for smash.
Would a wii u pro controller be good to play on?
>>
>>262092376
Use the GC controller.
>>
>>262081575
Real men don't play competitive smash bros dude.
>>
>>262092376

It's works okay enough, but I'm not a big fan of it for Smash.
>>
>>262092516
>competitive smash is bad! do i fit in guys?
>>
>>262092562
That's not what I said.
>>
>>262092516
If you play a round of Smash you're playing it competitively. By which I mean, you try to defeat your opponent(s). If you have ever done that, congratulations, you've played competitive Smash.
>>
What is Smash DI?
If you want to wear out your analog stick violently and want to be at a disadvantage for surviving would-be KOs, sure, don't use the C-Stick.
>>
>>262092516
real men also have interesting and active social lives, yet look where we are
>>
>>262092740

How do i punish my friend in smash? He plays wario/DDD and just spams the same 2 moves over and over again. I always over think what he is going to do and it fucks me up.
>>
>>262092686
Pedanticism.
>>
>>262093015
Not in the slightest. Smash is by definition competitive. You compete. Get off of your high horse.
>>
>>262081575

Pro-tip: C-Stick is inferior to Directional Smashes

In exchange for the quick aerials and whatnot, theres a one frame delay when using the C-Stick.

Git gud
>>
>>262092849
I can't say I disagree.
>>
>>262092954
Ike the shit out of him.
>>
>>262081575

A month ago, I would've agreed with you.

Now, I've started to see the serious utility behind the C-stick.
>>
>>262093076
We all know what OP meant.
Otherwise he would have no need to specify it.

There is no high horse here.
>>
>>262089623
>tfw still the best

Feels fucking gr8 m8.

Niggas can't handle the Ness games.
>>
>>262081975
he said "real men"
>>
>>262092954
Play Mario and spam cape. It may not make you win the battle but it sure pisses a lot of people off. And if you don't feel like you've won when other people get pissy, then, really, what kind of human being are you?
>>
>>262093175
In what possible context is this?
>>
>>262093084
You risk tripping with directional smashes.
>>
>>262092954
People who do that usually don't do anything along the lines of teching or using any DI, so if you want to dick them over just abuse that.
>>
>>262082256
you dont, thats why its a back air
>>
>>262093374
It was the Smash anime, you don't remember that?
I have no idea
>>
>>262093425
>Brawl
>B
>r
>a
>w
>l
I seriously
for real
100%
hope you're joking
>>
>>262089873
Current me can beast tourneyfags like a knife through butter.

I still just feel shitty not being able to beat it. Hell even with Brawl I used to be able to pick any character and beat boss rush on intense. Now I can't even get past 2 bosses with ezmode Fox.
>>
>>262092954
First, find a way to beat out the specific move he uses. Find a certain move or spacing that will 100% beat out each move that bothers you if you know ahead of time that he is going to use it. Then after that all you have to do is recognize situations where he will want to use that move.

A lot of that comes from just playing the game and getting experience.
>>
I have played a lot of smash bros, on the N64, GC, and Wii and I have no fucking clue what the c-stick does at all.
>>
>>262093524
Brawl is my favorite smash game.
>>
>>262093787
Stop playing a game that punishes you for doing a basic fucking input.
>>
>>262093852
I will after Smash 4 comes out. I always stop playing the older inferior game like I did with Melee for Brawl.
>>
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Then how are you suppose to do a dair without fast falling?

How are you suppose to move backwards while doing a fair?

How are you suppose to buffer rolls?
>>
>>262094097
Not him but to add to this how do you l-cancel without shielding?
>>
>>262081575
then how the fuck do you short hop and perform a good Fair Dair or Bair?
>>
>>262093767
i second this, what does it do?
>>
>>262081575
>he doesn't smash DI
>>
>>262094179
when you're about to touch ground hit R or L
you let it go when you touch the ground (i think you need to be really careful with this shit)
>>
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>>262094083
>I always stop playing the older inferior game
>>
>>262093767
>>262094302
Smash attacks
I mean, on the off chance you're being serious.
>>
>>262093374

They are both aliens. The older guy is a humanoid, the kid is an insect thingy pretending to look like a human to blend in, he also has a sibling that wears similar clothes but they are pink.

The kid is part of a group of badguys that killed the older guys father.

He was out for revenge.
>>
>>262094179
Don't hold it down too long. You can use light press on the L or R button to make it easier
>>
>>262094302
Fast smashes, fast aerials
>>
Real men don't call second analogs that aren't on the Gamecube controller C-sticks.
>>
Nigger faggot dicks use the a button
>>
>>262094434

The d-stick does so much more than just smash attacks.

Smash attacks are basically what you should be using it for the least.
>>
>>262081575
I've not really watched anything competitive, do people actually use the c-stick? I thought that was just for kids because it's easier to use.
>>
>>262093767
helps you with directionally use Airs (air attacks)
not only smash attacks
>>
>>262094451
Weird.
>>
>>262094612
Yes anon, the mature and adult thing is to just not know how things work. Understanding things is for kids.
>>
Can you OoS Up Smash if you turn tap jump off?
>>
>>262094704
Are you a retard?
>>
>>262094302
smash attacks on the ground
air attacks in air

lets you do air attacks without fucking up your monentum and shit
>>
>>262094808
Are you? Is SDI something only kids do?
>>
>>262081575
scrub
>>
>>262094704
what in the fuck are you talking about?

>>262094612
yes, most people do use the c-stick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v11Tix4A36U
>>
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The c-stick is the best part of the whole smash bros control scheme.

The major use of the c-stick is to do aerials that don't require you to change what direction you are moving in. It is also useful for buffering inputs while you are in shield.
It makes SDIing tons easier, it enables dual stick DI.

Spamming easy smash attacks is the least useful thing it does.

To not use the c-stick is to not understand how smash even works.

>>262094798

Yes, you can also still up-b out of shield.
>>
>>262081575
Is the wii u pro the best for Mario Kart 8?
>>
>>262094704
holy shit what's wrong with you, he clearly said he didn't know anything about comp smash and you started to spout some bullshit about maturity and being an adult. How is that relevant to anything at all?
>>
>>262094612

I use it because I've clawed when I played Smash since 64. Otherwise I'd have to tap up to jump, and that's terrible.
>>
The only people who think the c-stick is cheating or cheap are retards who keep getting hit by their friend spamming easy to dodge smash attacks.
>>
>>262095371
>Otherwise I'd have to tap up to jump, and that's terrible.
You don't turn off tap jumping?
>>
>>262095627
you can't in melee
>>
>>262095627

No, but that's only because it makes certain things more comfortable, like JC grabs in PM. I'll turn it off if I'm playing Brawl though.
>>
>>262095839
Ah. I forgot about that.
>>
>>262096145

If you don't play melee change z to jump. It' so much smoother for everything once you get used to it.
>>
>>262096145
I thought everyone just hit x -> z to JC grab. do people actually use tap jump for that?
>>
>>262096418

>x
>not using superior y button to jump
>>
>>262096278

The only reason I don't play Melee is because I lost my disc. I'm just way too used to my old methods though, I've been clawing forever. Up and Z so I don't get that shitty dash grab. Y and C-Stick for instant aerials. DACUS is pretty easy this way as well.

>>262096418

I use tap jump solely because I can quickly move from right or left to up more comfortably. Basically, it means less button pressing for me, plus I'm a bit used to it for DACUS.
>>
>>262081575
Fact: Real men don't play video games for kids.
>>
>>262081575
i never have. went to a couple tourneys and have to keep reminding myself that i need to train myself to use it.
>MAIN COMPLAINT : IT FEELS SO DISHONORABLE
>>
>>262096635

DACUS is even easier if you change whatever trigger button you don't use to attack.

It's actually required for some characters.
>>
>>262081575
>real men
>smash bros

Pick one
>>
>>262096572
>playing space animals
>being confined to one jump button for advanced shit

nah, I like to tap the bottom of the x button, feels better.
>>
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>Using c-stick ever
>>
>>262081575

No bullshit, I tend to forget the C-Stick exists when I play Smash. At this point it would require conscious effort for me to utilize it.
>>
>>262096806

I don't use the L button at all, but that's because that thing is broken and I'm so conditioned to not using my left hand for anything but movement. I know about the DACUS thing, it kinda sucks when I play Roy because I have to use the A button instead. At least his isn't all that good.
>>
both melee and brawl I used the control stick to jump and the c-stick to do smash attacks.

but now that the circle pad pro is not going to be supported I'm going to have to use the control stick + A for smashes and X for jump to adapt to the quicker control and better momentum.

am I going to have to relearn everything?
>>
WILL YOU BE CONSIDERED GOOD WITHOUT A C-STICK?

discuss.
>>
>>262097178

No. Not using the c-stick limits what you can do. You are limiting yourself by not using it.

It's like trying to box while hopping on one leg.
>>
>>262097178
fuck no, you'll get bodied
>>
Fact: Stop getting angry at games and just play for fun.
>>
>>262097254
>>262097295
but anons, CPP won't work because of jews.
>>
>>262097754

>playing smash on a handheld

lol
>>
>>262097831
This game isn't even out yet and people are saying this shit on /v/
I truly hate this place.
>>
>>262097831
Yeah, never ever gonna buy a Pii U
>>
>>262097959

You will be playing the inferior version with inferior controls.

Just remember that.
>>
>>262081575
You can't charge your smashes if you use the c-stick, so it's a trade off. Either get a quick smash when you need one with the c-stick, or pull off a more deliberate one without using it.
>>
>>262098032
>actually buying a Wii U for this.
I'd rather have no C-Stick than give jewtendo more of my money
>>
>>262098160
>You can't charge your smashes if you use the c-stick,

Yes you can. Hold Z or A after you flick the stick.

The tradeoff is that smash attacks with the c-stick are 1 frame slower.

And using the c-stick for smash attacks is the least useful thing you can use the c-stick for, it does so much better more important things.

>>262098239

I'm not even going to buy smash4.
>>
>>262098032
But at least I won't have bought a Pii U.
Just remember that.
>>
>>262098348
I'm well aware this thread is not about smash 4, but what compels you to open any smash related thread less than a month before ssb4 release? Just to shitpost like a fucking retard?
>>
>>262087586
oh god.. I can't believe I'm going to say this...

>fucking casual

no but really, ya'll hate on brawl all you want, but the wiimote is a pretty badass controller for it. up to jump, 1 for attack and 2 for special, B for shield. works good. I'm better with it than I am with GC controller or the CCP
>>
>>262098348
I had no idea you could still charge it, I just used it to get a quick smash off. And to dodge roll and throw.
>>
>>262098554
the wiimote is not good for smash at all and no, you're not good with it.
>>
>>262098551

I'm shit posting by explaining how the c-stick works and that saying playing smash on a handheld is dumb?

Alright bro, whatever. You might as well go play some FPS games or RTS handhelds while you are at it.
>>
>>262092519
how the fuck would you have played smash with the wii u pro controller, anon.

are you from the future

or are you a dirty lying faggot that doesn't know his mouth from a shit stain
>>
>>262098714
>you will be playing an inferior version with inferior controls

I know shitposting when I see it.
>>
i always thought c sticking was for lazy faggots and when friends and i would play melee we never c sticked because we thought it was a casual thing

when i found out c sticking was pretty much commonplace in the tourney scene i was actually kinda disappointed and unimpressed

its kinda like finding out that really impressive speed run you watched was tool assisted
>>
>>262098875

I went to the Best Buy demo some months ago, they used Wii U Pro controllers.
>>
>>262098904

The 3ds version is the inferior version anon, and it does have inferior controls.

I honestly don't see how you can deny this.

I'm going to drop it though because it's pointless to argue with you.

Does anyone have anymore questions about what the c-stick can do in smash?
>>
>>262098714
>bitching about smash on a handheld in a smash thread
>not shitposting

yeah, okay.
>>
>>262099017
yeah I have a question, can i shove it up your mom's gaping cunt or do I need to buy the new cunt for $160?
>>
>not playing as pikachu and spamming down c-stick
>>
>>262098932
using the c stick to smash attack over and over is casual

using the c stick to do stuff otherwise impossible without the c stick is not casual
>>
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>casuals not realizing the utility of c-sticking smashes out at a moments notice, particularly when you're in mid-tilt and need to smash an opponent behind you

guys step it the fuck up.
>>
>>262099017
>Does anyone have anymore questions about what the c-stick can do in smash?

This guy clearly knows more than we do, better ask him questions about a game mechanic that has existed for over 10 years.
>>
>>262098875
not the anon you replied to but back during E3 nintendo did that smash fest at best buy

me and a friend waited in line for almost an hour and we got to play the 3DS version doing a smash run and the wii u version using pro controllers of 2 timed matches

used shiek in smash run and god i love how she plays, DAT down B

megaman kinda sucked because all his attacks were just too small in terms of range, they were practically melee attacks
hopefully they were extended just a tiny bit

and link... well he basically played like a very slightly faster link. dont fix what aint broken

pro controller was okay, but with the A and B button placements it was hard to adjust to it in the middle of a match, and because it was a demo unit you couldnt customize controls. although you will obviously be able to in the full game
>>
>>262099512
that's just as easy with the a button though. the c stick is for doing aerials while keeping full control in the air, doing an aerial after dropping through or falling off platforms, or jump cancelling shit. Also buffering actions out of shield.
>>
>>262098702
that's a nice opinion you got there

now fuck off.
>>
>>262092686
You know what he means
>>
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>>262099793

>Thinking /v/ cares or cares to learn anything about smash

I seriously hope you don't do this. /v/ is happily ignorant when it comes To smash, they don't want to be informed.
>>
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>people actually think the 3ds version will be better
>>
>>262100637
hey man, I just love this game and want to talk about it. there are good smash threads during big tournaments (except evo).
>>
>>262099742
>pro controller was okay, but with the A and B button placements it was hard to adjust to it in the middle of a match, and because it was a demo unit you couldnt customize controls. although you will obviously be able to in the full game
For someone who actually has a Pro Controller and has used it for a lot of WiiU games it felt surprisingly natural to me, and I've used nothing but a GC controller for Smash ever since Melee came out.
>>
>>262098875
All the public Best Buy demos used Pro Controllers, only special demos like at PAX and e3 used Gamecube controllers
>>
>>262101206

I'm really baffled by that, what I'm more in shock at was the guy who was saying the wiimote was good for brawl.

Just, what in the actual fuck.
>>
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>All these people don't know what the C-stick is for

I truly hope these aren't the same people who say Melee is better because it's less casual
>>
>>262101506
yeah thats the thing, that was probably my first time holding a wii u pro controller

and that was coming off having to spend 3 months using a wiimote nunchuck combo which after getting used to was kinda nice

ill admit i like using wiimote nunchuck, fuck it

its obviously not as good but its not a bad choice, plus its easy to be the guy who uses that when theres not enough GC controllers
>>
Who cares about the control method? If you repeatedly lose to someone it's because they're better than you, and vice versa. You're really going to blame it on the second stick on their controller that you also have access to on yours?
>>
>Play as Luigi
>Move backwards in the air
>Use C-Stick to do the forward chop and KO faggots
>>
>>262101778
>that you also have access to on yours?
That's not the case if one of the two players got a regular 3DS where as the other player got a new 3DS
>>
>>262101893
True, but that thing is going to be awkward as hell to use for Smash, it looks like it's just going to be the same as one of those laptop pressure button things
>>
>>262101893
Most of the people in this thread are talking about Melee/Brawl anyway. Still not a big deal though.
>>
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>thread about the c-stick in smash
>3DS fags in here for some reasonn
>>
>>262101893
yeah but when is the new 3DS even coming out in the US?

have they even officially announced it in america yet?

i mean obviously its coming here, but i wouldnt be surprised with a Q1 2015 date
>>
>>262102108
Oh. My bad. I thought the whole topic just came up because of the CPP jew fiasco.
>>
>>262081575
>COMPETITIVE SMASH BROS!
LOL
>>
>>262102124
In a month there won't be anyone left but your so called 3DS fags, so enjoy the time you got left
>>
>>262102202

There are 2 types of people who talk about the s-stick.

1. Casuals who that spamming smash attacks is cheap.

2. People who actually understand gameplay mechanics and understand why the c-stick is useful.

Casuals won't care that you can't c-stick on the 3ds, and the people from group 2 probably won't even bother with the 3ds version.
>>
>>262102408

I barely every browse smash threads because they are some of the worst threads on /v/, and I have no intention of even buying smash 4 in the first place. So I have nothing to worry about.
>>
>>262089623
>tfw you and your friends got into Melee and Project M and all now steadily get better
I just need to get better with my Falcon. Can't handle Snake.
>>
>>262102704

>be the best out of your group of friends
>do well against 90% of people on netplay

>another friend who doesn't really play smash picks up PM
>starts playing it some
>likes it
>wants to play against an actual person
>play him
>4stock body him over and over again while telling him what he is doing wrong

Some day I hope he gits gud.
>>
>>262098348
>1 frame slower
It'd be slower to do the input with a + Control stick anyway. Also in Melee and PM you can crouch and use the c-stick to do a smash attack out of crouch. Useful for crouch cancel downsmashing
>>
>>262081575
No real men play competitive smash anon, you have to be a turboweeb to even make their plastic tier in Fox Only Final Destination No Items Land
>>
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>>262081575
>COMPETITIVE SMASH BROS!
>>
>>262103282

Protip: If you change your c-stick in brawl/PM in options to attack it lets you do some weird/fun stuff.

Functionally it's 99% the same, but it has 3 changes.

Forward now does f-tilt instead of f-smash, and backwards/diagonals do jab.

Very very useful for dash cancel jabs/f-tirls on certain characters.

All the aerials are thhe same, eexcept now if you do a diagnal input you do a nair.

You do a nair without having to let go on the control stick, so you can do perfect nairs while maintaining momentum in whatever direction you want to.
>>
>>262085441
Fact: and thus Smash should be played as a party game. As the creators fully intended.
Which is why they added tripping, to piss off tryhards like you. Nobody likes "competitive" smash players and their stagnant Melee.
>>
>>262087240
What about summoning spaceships with falco or fox noob?
Thread posts: 199
Thread images: 25


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