>Smash 4 has no L-cancel! : ^)

>>261959030
L-cancel is cancer

and you're happy about this because

>>261959030
What even is L-cancel

>>261959030
That's not L-cancel, they confirmed it on Smashboards.

>>261959251
>>261959251
L cancel is shit. I'm glad it and Wavedashing are gone

>>261959387
cancelling the landing lag of an aerial attack by pressing shield (L on gamecube/64 controllers). Only in melee/64

>>261959030
What is that moving across the bottom at the end of the gif?

>>261959387
Pressing your Shield button right as you land to cancel out of your landing animation. Or something like that.

>>261959652
looks like someone made a gif of the youtube video and that's the little preview thing

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>>261959534
hurr durr

>>261959545
How is it shit?

>>261959756

that is some smooth landing Lucina does. Do we know if that was Player influenced, or if it was just her natural landing lag?

>>261959756
That's not l-canceling

I played a lot of Melee and a lot of Brawl but these kinds of threads have me convinced I played a completely different game.

That's not L Cancel, just some attacks have really low landing lag, it was confirmed yesterday.
http://smashboards.com/threads/sorry-for-crashing-smashboards-im-zipzo-today-i-played-the-release-build-of-smash-4-ama.366574/

>>261959908
apparently almost all moves automatically cancel landing animations, with a few exceptions

>>261959756
Why is Luigi so big

>>261960016
>This game did not feel like Brawl, and I've been playing a lot of Brawl lately to prepare and I almost feel bad for doing so. It actually felt more like Project M

Casualfag genuinely curious here.

If you were able to attack anytime during a roll and if the roll was polished some, would wavedashing still be necessary?

>>261960156

Okay, good to know. A bit less skill intensive, but far more intuitive, and still leads to faster gameplay.

Sounds like Sakurai's Mission statement for Smash 4.

>>261960298
>Shields are fast. Very fast. They are basically the new wave-dash (I dare say), I'm being totally serious, and you can attack out of them with a great deal of attacks.

smash 4 has that, so we'll see

my concern is that characters who CAN'T do this will be utter shit

Once again /v/ overexaggerating and misconstruing small details that have been pointed out elsewhere. Not only do you fags do nothing but regurgitate what other websites find out about Smash but also don't even get it right

>>261959030
There's a final build being demo'd in Japan right now, there's none.

All thats happening is that a lot of moves just have minimal to no landing lag now. Not a glitch, not L-cancelling, thats how the game is.

>>261960246

All characters were sized up so Krool wouldn't be too big.

>>261960298
would still be helpful in some situations, yes. mainly cancelling a run when a character can't quickly cancel with a crouch (watch melee sheiks wavedashing while tech chasing) and in defensive situations. also platform mobility (wavelanding)

Hilarious how the final build is extremely similar to the e3 version, yet everyone's excuse for the e3 version was "b-but is not final!!!"

So basically the game isn't as bad as autistic melee fags say it is

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L cancelling seems pretty useless in all honestly. Its hard to pull off and doesn't have a great reward for it either. Why would you ever do it? Unless you're like Bowser in Melee and even then, it only shortens the landing lag by an extreme small amount to the point where it barely does anything

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>>261960472
So its better than wavedashing?

Is Project M going to be BTFO?

Who cares? Anyone who tries to extensively compare this game to Melee OR Brawl rather than just enjoying it for what it is is a retard.

>PICTOCHAT STAGE CONFIRMED RETURNING
fuck yes, one of the best Brawl stages

>>261959763
Not him, but L-Cancelling is lame because it only acts as a non-obvious hurdle for new players to understand. Except for that one note in 64's guide, how is anyone playing Melee supposed to know that if you press L ~7 frames before you land after an aerial attack then you suffer no landing lag? If that's the way the game is "meant" to be played, it's better off as a trait any certain character has than an exploit anyone can abuse.

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>>261959763
Meleefags clamor for more "movement options" in smash, more ways of getting around or means to an end. Wavedashing is an example; it requires a lot more effort than just running and is very finicky to control, but it had tons of invincibility frames interspersed throughout the dash and it allows you to perform a stationary attack, like a smash, while your momentum carries you across the ground

L-cancelling is pointless; rather, it's completely pointless NOT to L-cancel, because you gain everything and lose nothing from doing it. It's not an option, it's an obligation, even a necessity; it's not encouraging skill, it's punishing lack of skill, which is awful.

>>261960876
What? It's easy as fuck to do and actually useful. That said it's better to not need it at all like it seems to be the case here.

>>261960321
This.
Best part about melee wasn't the tech skill, but what it enabled you to do. If the same high-level gameplay can be achieved with a lower level of skill required, it'll be the best smash yet.

>>261961057
It's not useful though. I got the hang of it but for other players it can be hard to pull off, and for pretty much nothing. Its not useful in any way

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>>261961176
GET HYPE

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Landing Lag is dependent on the move, we went over this. It seems to be balanced depending on their efficiency. For example, Falcon's knee is extremely powerful but has ginormous landing lag to compensate.

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>>261961007
Wavedashing has no invincibility frames you retard, at least have a slight knowledge of what you're talking about beofre you start spewing everywhere.

L- cancelling, you can make a case for being removed though- but only if they made the low-lag times automatic.

>>261960876
>Its hard to pull off
Its just a simple tap of a button while you're landing, what's so hard?
>doesn't have a great reward for it either
For casualfags at least, but that is what Smash is aimed towards after all. Its inclusion in any Smash at all is confusing

>>261960915
>So its better than wavedashing?
Time will tell, depends on how easily you can act out of it, but when you airdodge into the ground in PM/Melee you can do anything out of it. You can also use it to land on platforms which make for tighter movement

>Is Project M going to be BTFO?
No you fucking cancerous faggot, a slightly better roll in a completely seperate game is not going to effect Project M

>>261961007
Smash just needs L-Cancelling and momentum carrying over into jumps and I'm happy. I don't care about dashing in place like a spaz, wavedashing (even if my Melee main was Doc), or moonwalking.

Momentum not transferring into jumps is awful and retarded.

>>261960876
>sweatingm2k.jpg
Wanting to waste precious frames on landing

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>>261961529
I was defending wavedashing, go fuck yourself you irritable cum container

>>261961567
Nah, Smash doesn't need L-cancelling, just make everything have 0 landing lag like in Smash 64. Shit would be tight.
Momentum carrying into jumps though, yes, the fact that this was even taken out, EVER, is just bad game design

>>261961007
agreed with the punishing lack of skill to an extent, if they make l-cancelling automatic (which it seems to be for the most part) then props to sakurai

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>>261961007

Wavedashing doesn't have invincibility frames you fucking retard

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>>261961554
But that's wrong. L cancelling is worthless. If you'd like to show me off L cancelling isn't and how you absolutely need it to be a skilled player, go ahead. Because when I use L cancelling it doesn't do much for me in terms of tournaments which I've been in, matches with my friends, and against the CPUs, it does nothing I could've done without it and adds nothing either. Stopping the landing lag by 3 frames or less isn't useful.

>>261961792

You did a shit job then.

>>261961823
You needed to Z-Cancel in 64, but if you did there was 0 lag, unlike Melee where it cuts the lag in half.

>>261961882
why's everyone talking about wavedashing again?

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>There are anons on /v/ that seriously think L-cancelling is in the same league as Z-cancelling

>>261961007
>but it had tons of invincibility frames interspersed throughout the dash
... The fuck? Maybe a few at the beginng while you're in the airdodge state before you even touch the ground but other than that no

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>>261961948

You don't know what you're talking about, anon.

Short Hop Fast Fall L Cancel is incredibly useful. You are talking about of your asshole.

>>261961948
which character do you play?

>>261961948
You should probably play good people, then.
>muh shitty local tourney

>>261962024
>people don't autistically research and play just to see 1 to 2 frame differences

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So how about this:

Wavedashing is made easy with a single button press
L cancelling is made automatic

Competitive players are happy because all their options and fluid movement are still there
Casual players are unaffected
Everyone wins because artificial skill barriers are removed

Can we all agree that this would be the best?

>yfw all those people shouting Brawl 2.0 because they couldn't consider the possibility of there being completely new tech to learn
If nothing else I'm predicting the competitive scene for Smash 4 to be far above Brawl, even if it doesn't match Melee.

>>261962112
can we quit the bashing of people that don't fully understand what they're saying? this is what separates casualfags and tourneyfags, and what needs to be stopped to fill that gap

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>>261961948

Congratulations

You just showed what a fucking noob you are

>>261962332
It'd be neat if they made wavedashing into an actual feature, yes.

>>261959030
>gif

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>>261962157
Mostly Falco, but I use Ganon, Dr. Mario, Roy, and Marth a bit too. The other ones I use rarely, except I used to play Bowser a lot.

>>261962332
pretty much, though not necessarily wavedashing. intrigued with the whole new shield mechanic really. and wavedashing is basically 1 input, lol

>>261961007
but L canceling takes no skill, you literally just have to press the shield button just before landing.
It requires timing, but it's not hard to do, it was even in the manuals (and it's called Smooth Landing)

>>261962332
I think that would devaule rolls and also make it too commonplace. Some characters had poor wavedashes and their metagame wasn't focused on it; Ganondorf, Peach, Jiggs to name a few offhand.

>>261962341
One of the Japanese guys who played the final build said something like "the ground speed is like Melee but mid-air it's more like Brawl" which is a pretty good way to put it. Ultimately though it's its own unique installment

>>261960776
What are you talking about? People are saying it's a big improvement. One guy who hates Brawl said it felt great.

>>261962578
wait, ganon... without l-cancelling? his aerials all have like half a second of lag

>>261962856
Considering Melees ground game was great and Brawl allowed better aerial fighting then I'm happy if that's accurate.

>>261962332
You could have a dash or jump forward/back but very low to the ground instead of wavedashing. Makes more sense visually.

>>261962332
The landing lag varies from moves and characters, simply removing it from all characters would mess with balancing issues, and will make people just spam powerful aerials without any risk of getting dodged and then punished.

>>261960293
Yes, and...?

>>261962192
>m2k

>>261963014
See this is the thing though. I don't NEED L cancelling to win. L cancelling it self is an artificial difficulty barrier and I feel a lot of players who use it can't actually beat people without it. But besides that I find it overall useless in general, even with characters like Bowser and Ganon, especially since Z cancelling is so much better. It just feels dumb to use when you don't need to and in a competitive match honestly doesn't help that much, especially if you're actually playing a good character, which i'm sorry, but Bowser isn't.

Reminder that Robin, Shulk and Palutena are overpowered.

>>261963212
well each attack would still have a different amount of lag

>>261963424
>I don't NEED L cancelling to win
But it's also easy as fuck to execute you'd you'd play way more effectively if you did it, especially with a character like Ganon who becomes complete shit if there's no way to compensate for the ridiculous ending lag on his moves (see: Brawl).

>>261963424
eh, fair enough. if you can kick ass without it and have fun then you're winning, right?

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>>261963679
But no one uses Ganon competitively in Brawl. And I do use L cancelling, I just find it kinda useless and insignificant.

Here's what I think is gonna happen;

1: Like what happened with Brawl, 4 newcommers will generally be really, really good and among the best characters.

2: Because he ignored most of the Melee vets in Brawl, Sakurai is focusing effort on making them better, and many we've seen such as Bowser, will be great in 4.

3: The Brawl vets are going to suffer what the Melee vets went through; many of them will be tweaked some but not as much, (except for Zamus) and wind up being on the lower end of things, like what happened to Melee vets in Brawl.

>>261963915
>But no one uses Ganon competitively in Brawl
Exactly, because he's completely shit and he has ridiculous lag on his moves. Did you even read what I said?

>>261960876
Lcanceling is vital in high level Melee. Missing an lcancel means almost certain death. Landing lcancels means doing the best pressure strings and combos. Lcancel is even more important than wavedashing.

>>261963170
THIS
MAKE THE D-PAD DO THIS SAKURAI

>>261963993
Does this mean Meta-Knight will finally be fixed?

>>261964039
Yea but L cancelling wouldn't get rid of Ganon's move lag. Just his landing lag. That's what L cancelling does. Ganon is shit in Brawl because he's slow as fuck and the move lag. Not because of his landing animation

>>261960975
I'm a meleefag and I agree. I wanted automatic lcancel as it would make the game more inclusive, especially for fgc members who like the fast paced action but the dex test was too much

>>261964180
I pray to sakurai every night that broken piece of shit will remain in brawl, never to be heard of again

Well, I haven't played brawl because PC too shit to emulate and no wii but god, I can't imagine smash without L-cancel since I played a lot of Link in 64.

>>261962014
meleefags insecurity, they love to force it in discussion then "prove" the bug abuse is legit so tehy can play their usual persecution routine and claim another victory.

>>261964180
His recovery has been nerfed to hell, I think that's about it.

>>261964039
my brother won a local melee tournament with Ganondorf as his main.

He completely rapes me everytime with him. The sad thing it's that he started picking him when I said Ganondorf was total shit.

>>261959251
angry tourneytards is always a good thing

>>261959030
>>261959756
Auto cancelling was in both Melee and Brawl, I'm not seeing your point.

>>261964291
His most positive trait in Melee was always his incredibly good aerials but in Brawl they made it so it's impossible for him to throw out any move and not get punished. There's a million reasons why Ganon was shit in Brawl and that's one of the biggest.

>>261964039

Ganon is shit because all of his moves have terrible startup, his mobility is awful and he's terrible at catching dodges with his attacks since they don't have a lot of active frames.

>>261964291
(not him) yeah, landing animation does make it worse tho

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>>261964291

>>261964419
But the first comment in this thread mentioning wavedashing was complaining about it. Or shitposting, it's kind of hard to tell.

>>261964507
But Ganondorf is decent in Melee, it's Brawl where he became completely awful.

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>>261964654
Oh yeah of course it does, I'm just saying it's not what makes him shitty though. It's a small part, but its not why he's shit or even close to being a major part of why he's shit in Brawl

>>261964419
I'm one of those meleefags, but i couldn't care less if it's in or not. it's not the same game and it shouldn't be; melee will always be melee, time for some new shit

>>261964973
gotcha

>>261963424
Because you're playing against shit players. There are links and executions that need l-cancelling to work. Perfect Fox/Falco shield pressure is an example.

L-cancelling is insanely high reward for no risk and no real decision making.

>>261962332
2casual

I don't fuks with dis

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>>261963212
I mean reducing it to the lower, l-cancelled value. Not removing it entirely

>These people saying they don't need l-cancelling to win
Depends on who you're playing against, m8s

If you made l-cancelling automatic and wavadashing a single button, gameplay like this would still be possible, but with less of an execution barrier. It baffles me to think how anyone can say this is a bad thing

>>261964531
yeah oath. Can't we just all get along?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEaPDNgUPLE

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>>261960975
>i have to learn some mechanics to get good at a game

a bloo bloo hoo god forbid a game have some depth.

>>261965508
too easy to false flag either side

and people still take posts like the one you're responding to seriously

>>261965368
spam the same move is good now?

>>261965368
what game was this?! that was brutal haha
and agreed

>>261964180
He can't glide anymore.

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>>261965319
What are you talking about? I've never needed L cancel to do shield pressure with Falco. It's just about timing not l cancels.
Also
>W-well you must be playing shit players then!
No I wasn't. That's a dumb excuse

>>261965691
you your best tool in a situation is bad now?

>>261965638
huh?

>>261960635
>>261960635

Moves having little to no landing lag is much better than l-cancel shit

>>261965620
That's not a mechanic. It's an exploitable bug.

>>261965896
Ignore the shitposter, that's not even spamming the same move

>>261965753
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fi327toBUM

>>261965691
if that move is a blue hexagon, yes

>>261965368
Wavedashing is already a very simple input and it doesn't move a discrete distance, you can change how far it goes depending on the angle and timing of the inputs. It's also not just used for moving along the ground, it's also used for wavelanding which is already just a directional input+airdodge at the right time. I don't really see why the input needs to be drastically simplified especially considering those techniques aren't anywhere close to being the most technically demanding things in that webm.

>>261966073
and the difference is important why?

>>261966121
It's not like the other guy didn't have the same move at his disposal.

>>261966285
>responding to shitposters

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Alright I've only played Smash for 2 years now I think and I only recently started playing Melee as I was mostly playing Brawl, and I'm enjoying that too however I still find Brawl a bit better personally, but I had a question since I'm still kinda knew to it, how do you glide with Pit,Charizard, and Meta Knight? I get them to glide randomly sometimes but I have no clue what I'm doing that makes them do it.

>>261966073
if L canceling was in the instruction manual under gameplay, it is a mechanic of gameplay. wavedashing was a bug.

>>261966116
haha thought i saw axe, was confused when there was no pika
cheers for link

>>261966356

press and hold the jump button

>>261959636
>(L on gamecube/64 controllers)

Z on 64 controllers.

At least TRY to pretend you're not underage.

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>mfw maining Palutena

>>261966356
You just hold the jump button, right?

I haven't touched Brawl since like 2009 but I think that's how you do it.

>>261966358
So we're in an agreement.

>>261966356
hold the one of the jump buttons, use up and down to change their angle. you can build momentum that way.

>>261966289
don't get me wrong, i love that blue hexagon. mainly the other one tho, more broken

>>261966116
>down a
>shine
>grab

Thats all that happened, and there where 1-2 shines and 1 grab, yes, he was spamming the same move, and to the other poster yes it is bad because if that is your best tool then it means that it is your best tool every time, so that is spamming. Falco has 8 different moves not counting grab, spaming 1 to combo with other 1 and finish with grab is pretty much spam.

>>261966243
I know, I'm a longtime tournament player too. You could keep it variable with direction + y for example. I'm just trying to find the best compromise really between depth and making the game more approachable at a high level

>>261966485
>"maining" a character you haven't played yet

>>261966535
Is it useful?

>>261966480
been a while since i've played 64, gave mine away when i was like 10 for some stupid reason

>>261966601
You have no idea what you're talking about

>>261959030
Are we talking about Mario and Pac? Am I the seriously the only one that clearly sees Mario doing an F-tilt right after landing? It looks more like Pac's punishing that rather than hurr no L-Cancel.

>>261959030
still gonna enjoy game of the year

>>261966601
>not sure if shitposting

>>261966601
okay

he was "spamming"

so

?

>>261966285
>>261966352
Retards.

>>261966816
nice counter argument but whatever, I always loved z cancel but fuck I hated wavedashing, I'm so glad they removed it. It's not even hard to master it, it's just a pointless barrier.

>>261966535
>>261966504
>>261966478
Wait really? I know I'm new to it but now I kinda feel stupid now. I never figured it was just holding the button, I always assumed i had to press something else or press up and down a bunch or something

>>261963993
And Link will still be garbage

>>261967167
if it was easier would you still find it pointless?

>>261967167
how is it a pointless barrier?

you don't automatically "get gud" when you learn how to wavedash, you still have to learn to incorporate it into your game.

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>>261967241
>Link is still garbage

>>261967234
most tech skill is actually really simple on its own, it's only difficult when you have to incorporate lots of individual tech mid-game that it becomes a challenge

>>261966601

Use the move that's best in the situation. His opponent was in perfect range for every hitbox he used. When the opponent landed behind him he back aired, and he used a neutral air near the end as a mix up to set up for the down air KO because if he spammed down air in to shine mindlessly then the opponent would have DI'd back towards the stage instead of dying.

>>261961007
>You shouldn't be punished for being bad at a game.

How long until Smash becomes Mario Party and we just roll dice before the match to see who wins?

>>261967689
gliding is not tech skill, lol

So the manual, dash/attack to cancel landing lag thing was false? Where did it even come from? Now it just seems that different moves have different lag times, although the majority have minimal lag which is fine.

>>261967450
(not anon) pointless barrier because it's a barrier; if it were easier more people would get gud

>>261967912
define tech skill

>>261968081
follow ups are barriers
di is a barrier
deciding on which throw to use is a barrier
hell, pressing a to attack is a barrier

it's pointless because you don't like it

>>261967875
we will always have melee

As bad as this thread is, I can only imagine that threads on Smashboards are even more insufferable.

>>261966532
it was in the booklet/ website
also l cancelling is fucking easy all you have to do is block when you land... so fuckin simple

>>261959387
an exploit.

>>261965368
People don't want it because they don't want to lose, but can't be bothered to put time into a video game.

>>261966601
Drop that scrub mentality you shitter.

>>261968309
yeah fair point
plz don't confuse me with casualfags bashing tourneyfags, been learning competitive melee for a few years now and i love all of it

>>261961007
>it's punishing lack of skill, which is awful.
No game that gives casuals a free ride can be considered good

>>261968392
This thread is actually pretty civil compared to most of the threads here.

Smashboards is filled with the anti-competitive crowd just like /v/ is because all the competitive players for all of the games moved to Facebook.

>>261968478
No that's wavedashing. For some reason L-Cancelling was intentional, at least in N64

>>261968664
exactly, look what happened to brawl

>>261968703
Seriously? I always thought smashboards would be filled with competitive people.

>>261960876
it is extremely important for slow ass characters like bowser. he has so much landing lag that leaves him crazy defensless

>>261968664
It's fucking Smash Brothers you nimrod, not Dark Souls.

>>261968714
>implying wavedashing wasn't intentional

>>261968861

I thought they were about 50/50. Either that or the competitive crowd got really vocal round the time of the smash invitational.

>>261968703
Personally I find the competitives much more obnoxious than the anti-competitives. Obviously anyone whose only intention is to get a rise out of the other side will be the most annoying, but from my perspective banging on about "wargh trash slow as bad as Brawl Melee forever" is worse than people who will just accept the game for what it is and have fun.

>>261968861
it is, just not the best ones

>>261968861
It was circa 2009.

Then people realized Facebook was a lot easier to organize tournaments on and shit

>>261959030
As a tourneyfag(as most of you would call me) L canceling imo is actually the one thing I do *not* like about melee. The reason being that it has no counter play. There is never a situation where you *don't* ever want to reduce your movement lag. Unlike wallteching, dash dancing, wavedashing, light shielding, shield grabbing. All the other moves in the game have some kind of tradeoff to them and there are key situations where you don't want to pull off those various moves.
I actually wouldn't mind L canceling at all if there were some kind of benefit associated with not l canceling, to make it a proper tradeoff.

>>261969072
competitives that forget where they started are the biggest cancer for any game, most competitive players aren't like this though

>>261969239
>The reason being that it has no counter play
directional shielding gg :^)

>>261969072
How is this mentality prevalent on /v/ at all? "Just accept the game for what it is and have fun"? Are you kidding me?

Just accept DmC for what it is and have fun.
Just accept TOR for what it is and have fun.
Just accept Thi4f for what it is and have fun.
Etc.

Why is Smash any different when it comes to worse sequels?

>>261969239
oath, should've been made automatic all along

>>261969072
>people who constantly berate the other side for playing the game wrong and are the TRUE Smash Bros. fans
Quick, which side am I describing right now?

>>261965857
I know this is bait, but you literally need to L cancel to do shield pressure with spacies. Otherwise the landing lag will be long enough for them to punish you.

>>261969072
Why should I accept a game that I don't like?

>>261969239
is there a reason for not to combo?

>>261969374
Directional shielding is very good obviously but it still takes actual precision to pull it off. That isn't a problem with the game's mechanics. I just don't like when the game turns into a tech fest instead of a true test of predictions, and skill.
And before you say anything. No I am not salty cause I "can't do any of that shit". I tech just fine all the time and SHFFLing is one of my favorite things to do as captain falcon.

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>>261969530
Im not baiting. I've never needed L cancel for shield pressure. Falco's landing lag is short and it's short when you use the shield anyway.

I never realized how much of /v/ actually dont know what l-canceling is.

>>261969516
<3

>>261969789
Well then the people you're playing against suck. It's that simple, sorry

>>261969454
You're really going all out with the equivocating, but there's no comparison. Brawl had a different style of gameplay than Melee but improved on roster size and diversity, stages, music, graphics, online play, modes and features, and extras. Calling it as "worse sequel" just because you can't pull off your favorite speedy tricks from Melee is simply idiotic.

>>261969516
Neither, you're describing morons. A sane individual on either side plays the game how they want and doesn't really care how other people play it.

>>261969935
Brawl had a worse style of gameplay than Melee. It wasn't merely different.

Calling it a better sequel because it has more fluff thrown in is idiotic.

>>261969687
it's a scientific fact that people who play captain falcon are 70% sexier

>>261969789
Good players can abuse the difference in landing lag between an l-cancelled and a not l-cancelled aerial. Perfect Falco shield pressure is only perfect when you l-cancel, removing that gap.

>>261969687
Fucking everyone at a certain level has great tech skill, Silent Wolf is probably a more technical player than someone like Mango but he also performs worse in tournaments. Tech skill is not a replacement for any of those other things you mention, it just gives players the right tools for every situation.

>>261970064
worse style for who?

>>261969848
/v/ doesn't know jack shit about most things they complain about, more news at 11.

>>261969935
The gameplay was worse, not just different.

But yes, let's put more irrelevant bullshit into the game, that'll make up for it!

>>261970252
For everyone. Or are you telling me that even the most retarded casual likes tripping, input lag and overall extremely slow, defensive and floaty play as opposed to quick and responsive balls to the wall action?

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>>261969934
>>261970126

I'm not playing against people who suck actually. i'm able to use shield pressure lightning fast even without L-cancel, so why would I use L cancel when it's more work for something I can already do without it with the same efficiency. All you need is perfect timing and you can do it without it. And that's what I've gotten used to and I've learned how to counter that gap made without it, even though it's not really there to begin with when i do it.

>>261968373
But, anon I'm done with Melee. I have been for years. I just want something new that doesn't limit skill and tries to even the playing field for all players. If someone's better than me, I want to lose so I can git gud.

>>261970097
got a research on that, faggot kid?

>>261959030
Now I'm hyped
Thanks Soccer eye

>>261970545
Research THIS. *unzips dick*

>>261970442
why are people still playng brawl over melee then?

>>261970252
Worse style for nearly everyone. I've never met a person in real life who prefers Brawl to Melee. Casual, competitive, in between. Brawl is too slow and it feels like you're fighting in a vat of molasses or underwater.

No L-cancel is a good thing.

They found a canceling method that isn't totally stupid.

>>261970650
They aren't.

>>261968081
Wavedashing is only one (usually irrelevant) tool.

>>261970545
salty because you can't show him your moves?

>>261970196
I'm not disagreeing with you dude.
In melee, You are entirely correct. That's what I love about the game so much. I'm just saying it's not perfect in that regard but it's damn near fucking close.

Now PM?....that's a bit of a different story

>>261970650
because it's still a good game

>>261970650
Because the Gamecube flopped and the Wii was the casual console of the last generation.

>>261970532
But anon, don't you know that if you're good at smash you're a tourneyfag?
This has to be the only series /v/ is happy when it gets more casualized.

While we're at this topic, I'll interject with this little quip. I don't like Smash (or any fighting game I've played, really), but Smash Run looks seriously hype. What do I do?

>>261970064
>>261970408
It's worse in your opinion. The fact remains that the groundwork for Melee was taken and augmented in numerous ways. It's to Melee as Melee is to 64, and it doesn't matter whether you don't like the "waah less competitive" mechanics. Brawl doesn't need to live up to "competitive Melee" as a benchmark for whether it's good.

>>261970252
>>261970657
>I've never met a person in real life who prefers Brawl to Melee
Maximum delusion, meet confirmation bias, meet idiocy.

>>261968925
being a result of the physics, discovered and left alone because you don't consider it a big enough deal != intentionally planned and programmed in

>>261970650
where is this happening? I wish I could find people who play Brawl these days and not PM.

>>261970814
so you're saying brawl tournaments don't exist anymore anywhere ever

>That one incredible retard in this topic actually arguing L-cancelling isn't needed to play high-level Melee.

Is this guy fucking serious holy shit

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>>261970897
It hurts that you're right

>>261963253

It means tourneyfag bitching is getting BTFO.

>>261970657
i agree completely, it's boring as shit now. but it's also what got me into competitive smash in the first place, and you can't deny that there are brawl tournaments, no matter how bad they are

>>261970965
>The fact remains that the groundwork for Melee was taken and augmented in numerous ways
If by "augmented" you mean "removed, nerfed, simplified, or slowed down," then sure.

>>261970965
>It's worse in your opinion.
Tell me how it plays better than Melee.

>>261971026
Oh they exist but they're fucking tiny.

>>261970470
You are objectively wrong:
http://smashboards.com/threads/shield-pressure-frame-data.278616/

I a8 the b8

>>261971365
>Objectively wrong
But I'm not. I actually seriously don't need it for shield pressure. I'm not joking

>>261971186
Give me one reason why L cancelling matters. It will save you a few milliseconds at most, which doesn't matter since humans can't react at those kind of speeds anyway.

>>261971013
tis very rare and mainly only happens at big events, but its still existent. get into PM tho, shit is hype compared to brawl

The OP of this thread figuratively has the shitposter's emblem, why hasn't this been pruned yet? Jesus christ

>>261971026
Even Zenith, one of the biggest annual tournaments and had a tournament for Smash 64, didn't have Brawl this year. PM had more entrants than Brawl this year at Apex and the gap has probably widened since then. Brawl is in its death throes and Smash 4 will probably kill it altogether seeing as its basically Brawl+.

>any other fighting game
>don't have to do some counterintuitive input to cancel into the next attack
>Been this way since the beginning of combos in fightan
>Fightanfags are happy about this.

>Smash 4
>don't have to do some counterintuitive input to cancel into the next attack
>Been this way since the beginning of combos in fightan
>Meleefags throw a bitchfit

>>261971520
vids

>>261971603
I already play Melee. I just sometimes miss the feel of an eight minute slow paced slugfest.

>>261971701
>Meleefags throw a bitchfit
Where?

>>261971597
>which doesn't matter since humans can't react at those kind of speeds anyway
There are people who consistently powershield Falco's lasers, shield drop, and perform frame perfect techs. Clearly you've never played against anyone good.

>>261971741
Ok I'll see if I can find my capture device

>>261971639
which i am happy about. doesn't mean everyone sees it as worse tho

>>261970992
They put it in the manual, mang. It may not have been intentionally planned, but it's not an exploit if they decided to keep it.

>>261971256
Again, that's just your opinion. Calling it "different" is accurate, calling it "worse" if your own personal bias being so enamoured with the way Melee plays.

>>261971267
>Tell me how it plays better than Melee
Thanks to increased recoveries, I can be thrown off the stage and not have my fate sealed just because the opponent decides to hang on the ledge. But I guess you think, get backthrow, hit by run off shine at 10% is a fun way to die because MUH SKILL.

>>261972010
L-Cancelling, yes. Wavedashing no.

>>261970470
I'm just going to jump into this argument and say you're an idiot. Disregard the whole shield pressure argument and lets go back to the basics. L-cancelling allows you to half your landing lag with the press of a button, it's as simple as that. With a little bit of practice, tapping the guard button every time you land will become second nature.
Half the landing lag frames for fucking free.
Why would you not want that?

>>261972040
What you described isn't "better" though anon, that's "different." Calling it "better" is your own personal bias being so enamoured by the way Brawl plays.

>>261971701
Roman Cancels, Overdrive/Rapid Cancels, and Focus Cancels all disagree with you

>>261972040
Okay so apparently you're a casual who likes the fact that you don't get punished for messing up.

>>261972040
Why do people complain about hanging on the ledge? Even if you didn't do it, that just bumps up the percentage you live by like 3 or 4%.

It's really irrelevant.

>>261972040
play project m (the m is for recovery)

>>261971791
See:
>>261967875
>>261968664
>>261968784
>>261965620
>>261966358
>>261968476
>>261967147
>>261972247

>>261972417
/thread

>>261961948
I like the difficulty barrier that separates casuals from good players. Get mad.

>>261972417
Really? >>261972247 is bitching about l-canceling even though he's talking about edgeguarding?

>>261972101
Because the difference in landing lag is not significant enough to warrant the extra effort involved in L cancelling. It's literally just fractions of a second, it doesn't matter whatsoever.

>>261972230
I never claimed Brawl plays better than Melee, I was asked to give an example of something I think is better about it. And you respond with "that's just your opinion?" Thanks, Sherlock.

>>261972247
I am indeed a casual who thinks there's something flawed about a game where you can be killed at 0% by even the most casual Fox player if you make the grave error of getting knocked off the edge ever, yes.

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>>261972101
I'm not saying its bad or something, just im more used to not using it and better at that too. Im USED to the landing lag with characters, it actually helps me plan out my moves a bit, however I'm not saying it's bad in general, I just feel like its stupid when people say you NEED to do it to be a skilled player. Because that's wrong. And while I find it easy sure, i don't find it very helpful, its kinda underwhelming when Z-cancelling was so much better, and overall I wouldn't want it in another Smash. i'd rather it be automatic or just make landing lag shorter or not even there really.
>>261972694
But that's the thing you don't need to L cancel to be skilled

>>261960293
I played at bestbuy and its true. I was surprised

>>261971520
But that link just told you that you do.

>>261972865
>I never claimed Brawl plays better than Melee

>The fact remains that the groundwork for Melee was taken and augmented in numerous ways

I'm a fan of the original Smash Bros 64., not so much Melee and Brawl.

I couldn't care less about the wave dashing, but I loved L-cancel. It's not cheap, and it's not overly complicated to learn or master.

There is no real reason to take it out.

>>261970532
see
>>261972414

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The only people that complain about L-cancel are austists and scrubs who are bad at it, or kids who missed a L-cancel a few times in a tournament and lost a set for it.

You all need to git gud regardless. The playing field will never ever be level for you with better players if its in or if its out.

Yes I'm being an asshole but yknow what, I lost all interest in trying to reason with retards in this community. Get bopped.

>>261970946
pls respond

>>261972991
Why? PM is essentially "Brawl if it wasn't complete shit". You should trust soccer eye more.

>>261972970
>But that's the thing you don't need to L cancel to be skilled
You're just handicapping yourself from your true potential if you don't do it, which is stupid seeing as it's like the easiest advanced technique in the game.

>>261973304
It's still a pointless mechanic.
THere's no decision in doing it, it's just a required muscle memory for high tier play

>>261972970
>You dont need L-cancel to be skilled

That's true, but it does remove a progression and consistency barrier from the game if you take it away. This is one of the many reasons (although not the main reason) Brawl was so garbage. The characters that had an auto cancel like Metaknight saw rapid growth leading to gameplay imbalance. Meanwhile laggy characters are pretty much imbalanced. People see the most broken character and just go with it. taking out the execution barrier of cancelling your landing lag in smash allows this gameplay and it becomes overdefensive. See >>261973304 they got it right on the money. Git gud.

>>261973304
What about the people who admit that there is no decision making involved with it and that it only exists as a "do this input to automatically get better", which isn't skill in the first place?

Never have I seen so many people talking out of their asses. L-canceling isn't needed to win at a casual level. If you think L-canceling is completely useless then you haven't been put in a situation to utilize it i.e. doing a Marth combo.

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>>261972417
You quoted me >>261967875 even though two posts later I explicitly said I've been done with Melee for years and want something new. Fucking casual elitists.

>>261973304
it's not hard to preform at all, just really tedious

>>261972970

Your play would be improved if you incorporated L-cancelling. Just because you're used to not using it and play better without it doesn't mean you can't practice to use it effectively and be a better player.

And skill can be defined in a lot of ways. Knowing how the game works and knowing what to do in every scenario is a skill, yes, but being able to input a lot of buttons at a fast pace while STILL being able to think clearly/control your character/react to every situation is as important.

>>261973615
agreed, l-cancelling shouldn't have been in really

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>>261973534
Yeah and those people that cant do it dont want to build that muscle memory, they want less effort and to have their inferior skills catered to. I never have to think about L-cancel, and personally I cant remember a time when I actually missed one. Course this is coming from someone who can pillar triple shine on shield without ever dropping it so maybe thats just me.

>>261973174
Are you coming into this conversation midway through, or are you just stupid? The entire point I was making is that anyone who writes off Brawl as the "worse game" because they don't like the direction Sakurai took the game style in is biased and missing the larger picture. I don't claim, nor do I need to prove, that Brawl's play style is better by any metric. It simply takes the Smash concept, which Melee expanded on in 64, and expands it further from Melee. A couple of your favorite tricks from Melee are gone, but you can do new tricks. There are more characters, more kinds of special attacks, and new ways to use them. It's augmented.

Meleefags are stuck in the past. I love Melee, and Brawl, and 64, but comparisons between them are irrelevant. All that matters is that each new Smash game is bigger and louder than the last one and I get new characters to beat the shit out of my friends with. And I'll take that over refusing to play them because they don't have X speedy mechanic and instead crying myself to sleep clutching my Gamecube and dusty Melee disc any day.

>>261972849
Fractions of seconds are EXTREMELY important in fighting games, and in a movement based fighting game like Smash, willingly gimping your movement because of sheer ignorance is retarded, but fine, let me try to put it further into perspective. You said you play Ganon, right? He has some of the longest landing lag in the game. I don't know the exact numbers, but lets say it's 1/2 a second. If you jumped just 30 times in one match you'd have had a full 15 seconds of landing lag. L-cancelling would cut that shit in half for no extra effort.

>>261973815
Brawl didn't expand Smash at all. It contracted Smash by reducing and limiting nearly everything that Melee had built off of 64.

>>261973815
So as a DMC3 fan I'm not allowed to complain about the direction DmC went it, just because it's "different?"

>>261973667
So is drawing shapes in W101
So is upgrading weapons in RE4
So is making bridges for Ellie
So is optimizing a PC

Doesn't stop us from doing it.

>>261973815
weren't most of the new tricks available in brawl super lame other than footstooling

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"When planning the development of a new game, I always take a lot of care to discuss the concept and try to define it as best I can. For example, I like to think of Smash as a four-player battle royal action game. You'll notice that's a lot longer than saying it's a fighting game, because 'fighting game' is a completely different label." - Sakurai


There are people right now, in this very moment, on this very board, in the year 2011+3 who take a children's game seriously.

>>261973789
Actually I just want there to be a point for it having a button press.
Either make it auto, or make there be some choice in whether to do it or not.
Otherwise there's no point in having you press the button, it isn't even hard as you said. It's just monotonous

>>261974084
the only one that even compares is the ellie one

>>261973789
Nothing is lost by removing it though. It just makes it less annoying to play.

>>261974132
all games are for children. Guess we should all kill ourselves

>>261974234
>Upgrading weapons can make you better
>l canceling can make you better

wut

>>261974052
K

>>261974071
You keep trying to compare DmC but DmC isn't "DMC with slower character movement and more floatiness," retard.

>>261974086
I dunno, I sure had fun with them!

>>261974467
>K
So you agree?

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>>261960246
for you

because heaven forbid they left out that accidental "feature"

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>>261974282
It's only annoying if you're inconsistent or cant do it. Prove me wrong. If you have to even consider thinking about it your consistency is way off. There's literally no space for argument for you here.

>>261974132
I see more kids on Xbox live and PS online than I do claiming they play Nintendo games. By that logic and actual truth you could say you're more immature by judging a game by its rating and image than the kids you're trying to separate yourself from. Sorry you like limiting yourself son.

>>261973593
Or they could just halve the landing lag on all moves.

>>261974538
I agree to disagree.

>>261974692
Fair enough.

>>261974435
but that's just oversimplifying it. Lots of games have different ways of upgrading your weapons. L-Canceling is always the same requirement every time

>>261974086
Nah man. Brawl actually introduced some interesting glitches better known as advanced techniques, but the competitive scene fizzled out and most people forgot about them. DACUS is great and I hope that returns in 4.

>>261974467
>DMC with slower character movement and more floatiness
One of my biggest problems with DmC is that the aerial combat is so ridiculously simplified that what was once a hallmark of an incredibly good player to stay in the air juggling opponents for so long can now be done by mashing buttons and hovering in the air. The combat is also incredibly simplified, much like Brawl.

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>>261973394
>Handicapped
But I'm not really when L cancelling is such a small thing anyway and over all doesn't really fit my play style
>>261973773
Of course, I'm not saying I won't try to L cancel or something or I won't try to get better at it, because I'm sure it's helpful in SOME situations, but it seems and from what I've seen and played, to be very situational for me. And yes the fast pace button pressing is of course important, but L cancelling to me is more of a thing to worry about then something to help my play in all honesty. It's hard to explain, but I find it makes the battle more of a mess for me then feeling accomplished for doing it. I could easily get better at L cancelling, but over all my argument isn't how L cancel is, although still overall i find it pretty ineffeficient in general, but when people say you NEED IT ABSOLUTELY to be good at Melee, and that it should come back in the Next Smash instead of it being automatic.

>>261974467
>DmC isn't "DMC with slower character movement and more floatiness,"
Actually...

>>261961007
>it's punishing lack of skill, which is awful.
oh no, how will little billy ever have fun when his lack of skill is punished?!?!?!

>>261974731
ikr, has no one seen lucas do that shit?!

>>261974721
>Pay money and gun is better.
>Press button and act faster.

I really think that point was better than the Ellie one.

>>261959030
that isn't an L cancel, that's an autocancel, which was in brawl, you stupid virgin.

L cancels stops landing lag, it doesn't let you slide forward and do an attack, your bait was successful because /v/ are a bunch of casual faglords

>>261974838
You do absolutely need it to be good at Melee. You aren't good at Melee, unless you're going to post some vids or link to some brackets where you've beaten good people.

Nobody cares.
Post Webms

L-canceling adds zero depth. It's ALWAYS better to do it, there's never a decision involved.
Removing it and making everyone's landing lag overall lower (which appears to be what they've done) is the reasonable solution.

>>261974860
>>261974860
Okay, okay, the point is the DmC ALSO introduced neo-Nazi edgelord Donte and FUCK YOU and everything else we love to make fun of. Brawl didn't replace Mario with someone's "Dark Mario xxx420xxx" OC.

>>261974862
with more items!!!11!!!one!11!!!

>>261974959
>only have to upgrade your weapon every so often in most games
>have to constantly L-cancel to be gud
seriously stop trying to bait

God this thread is cancer.

Just adapt to the new mechanics or stick with melee for another decade.

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>>261975067
webms you say?

>>261975092
/thread

>>261960246
Not manlet:
>Captain Falcon
>Ike
>Ganondorf
>Bowser

On the cusp of manlet
>Shuk
>Robin
>Marth

Manlet:
>Little Mac
>Pit
>Dark Pit
>Fox
>Falco
>Mr. Game and Watch
>Mega Man
>Sonic
>Villager
>Mario
>Luigi
>Olimar
>Dr. Mario
>Link

>>261975098
I would forgive DmC for the edgy teenager presentation if it played as good as the old DMC games, but it didn't.

>>261975246
rip in piece ;_;7

>>261975224
you mean 2 more decades

ITT
players that need an extra apm crutch to prove how 1337 they are

>>261975246
Yes.
Post more, please.

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>>261975035
>You absolutely need it to be good
This has to be b8 because that's full on wrong. L cancelling is a minor thing in general. Having skills with attacks, dodging, shielding, using correct attacks, aerials, recoveries, combos, and more are FAR more important to being good then fucking L cancelling. I assume you also think you have to Wavedash to be good as well? Moron.

>>261975246
why have i never seen ic's this good

>>261975296
>Calling Non-Human characters manlet

any 64 ness mains here? I just want to be able to short hop spike spam people to death again. in that game all of ness's moves were useful at one point or another, I want that again.

>>261975543
Not using it is just handicapping yourself, there is zero reason not to use it 100% of the time.

>>261975139
>have to

There's your problem. You don't HAVE to l cancel. You can l cancel and not know how to follow up so you won't be better than the other guy. There was an anon earlier who said he practiced his auto cancels and was fine.

That being said, tell me what you have against pressing one button at the right moment. I understand the though of "unnecessary barrier" and what not, but it's so minor and other games have done similar mechanics in the past. See Bayonetta's perfect timed dodge mechanism.

>>261975665
>Implying Olimar isn't a manlet even by Hocotatian standards.

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>>261975481
don't have a whole lot

has anyone made a webm of chillin vs hax in pm at bar wars yet? you know the one.

>>261974597
You still have yet to justify why you need the button press.
It's not even a skill barrier, it's just a pure memorization barrier, which everyone can do.

>>261975912
if only i knew how :'(

This thread made me want to play Melee again, but I found it so boring, I turned it off after five minutes. Why do people like Smash again? No, this is not bait, this is a legitimate question.

>>261966532
They were talking about L-cancelling you fuck.

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>>261975912

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>>261975708
Well then I guess I enjoy the challenge of not using it. I'm more used to playing without it now.

>>261976012
which part was boring?

>>261975797
i don't have a problem with it. In fact, it's really easy to do. It's just that it's really tedious, more so than all of the other types of tedious shit you showed me

>>261973630

That doesn't change the fact that you are throwing a bitchfit over something that's been in fighting games for decades.

>Fucking casual elitists.

*tips ad hominem*

>>261975797
I am very hyped for Bayo 2.

>>261976052
why i play PM

>>261964886
Ganondorf is still a slower shitty captain falcon clone to me

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>>261976052
you da real mvp

>>261976440
>M2K in that webm

>>261976235
Just ... everything. It felt slow, and so dull. I've seen so many webms of amazing play, and not being able to pull that off made me feel terrible. I used to know how to L-cancel and wavedash, now I don't.

Actually, the whole concept of Smash (and fighting games in general, I suppose) is boring to me. The singleplayer sucks, there is no reward for exploration (since there is none), and it just feels soulless. I don't know, maybe fighting games aren't for me? That could be a possibility.

>Items on
Or
>Items off

Only one of these is for faggots. No pressure.

>>261976754
I choose "OR"

>>261976737
probably. i personally enjoy sitting around learning new tech for hours, mainly because of what comes from it (rekking bitches)

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>>261961948
Go watch literally any noteworthy tournament and watch all the L-cancelling

Then fuck off

>>261976769
hunting for the stitch

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>>261976631
you'd pop off like that if you read him that hard

>>261976631
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXNZsBJmjnA
m2k in this

>>261976313
There's been a dice roll to decide the winner before a match for decades?

Well shit. I guess I should have stuck with competitive Mario Party.

>>261977116
As extra confirmation (?), I tend to avoid enemies when playing games. I don't think fighting every single enemy adds to the gameplay. I just like exploration, that's all, really.

This would also explain why I am absolutely horrible at every boss fight, since I actually don't find entertainment in fighting enemies.

>>261977574
holy fuck, if you like exploration so much, go for a walk

>>261977574
hahaha probably, ever played portal?

>>261977574

That probably explains things. I'll fight everything I can, just to see if I can win.

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>>261977763
and they say meleefags aren't a hivemind

>>261977763
Women's menstruation cycles synchronize
Men's autism synchronize too

>>261977574
Jesus you're such a casual, you just want to look at pretty stuff and feel like you're discovering things