Is it ethical to visit North Korea?

>>1230499
following this

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>>1230499
Same as ethical than visiting USA

>>1230499
yes, perfectly.
you going or not won't change a single thing in the world or in north korea.

No, it fucking isnt.
I know this is 4chan but fucking engage your brain for 5 seconds. North Korea is constantly desperate for funds. They derive a huge percentage of their national budget from meth dealing into China, and a chain of fucking shitty RESTAURANTS. The money from tours is also significant. To you or me it might only be a $1000 or whatever but it is a useful amount of money in Best Korea, and one the Govt is eager to collect

>>1230503
>Europe can't go 20 years without starting a World War if the US doesn't intervene
>Economically stabilizes many European countries for years following WWII
>Prevents the spread of communism from the Soviet Union
>bases in nearly every country in the world defending them
>other countries don't trust us
Too fucking bad, because you've proven that the world needs us time and time again.

>>1230522
They need to pay

>>1230522
pay rent to germoney

>>1230499
Don't count on Jimmy Carter flying over to save your ass if they decide you fucked up.

>>1230522
you are causing those wars to "stabilize" everything later

>>1230503
>and only poland thinks it's russia
kek

can you link to the site?

I hope NK quits threatening the world. It would be nice to have them rejoin the world at large.

Of course it is
In fact it's more ethical than funding that zionist kike imperialist controlled state called south korea by visiting there.

>caring at all about ethical travelling

I heard once that there's no freedom of movement there. Anybody knows how exactly does it work?

>>1230517
This. North Korea DESPERATELY needs foreign currency, and tourism, along with a variety of illicit business doings around the world, and yeah, shitty restaurants, is how they get that.

I'd really love to see the country, I'm really intrigued by it, but I just don't think you can justify it.

However, I'm planning on looking into going to different spots along the border when I'm going to China next year. There are apparently lots of different places along the border where you can have a look at farmers, villages, soldiers, etc.

This could be used as inspiration: http://www.youngpioneertours.com/tour/koreas-part-3-dprk-north-korea-borderlands-2017/

However, I've read that China are strengthening the security around different border spots, but it seems like it's mostly targeted at South Koreans in retaliation for the THAAD missile system.

>>1230643
You will be followed by your minders everywhere. It seems that it's all about getting some friendly guides with friendly ties to the company you're travelling with, while that still won't change the fact that you're followed everywhere.

>>1230654
>You will be followed by your minders everywhere
I was asking about the situation of the locals. Is it true they can't move freely around NK?

>>1230657
As far as I understand it, freedom of movement is to a large extent limited to the city that you live and work in. However, North Korea is also deeply class-divided into three different ranks, and privileges are given to people in the higher rank(s) as a means to keep them happy.

But even people in Pyongyang, as far as I understand it, need to have special permissions to travel around the country.

>>1230659
so are there guards at the city exits or some police patrols on the roads? How do they enforce it?

>>1230582
Yeah, I totally forgot when we dressed up as the German Army and invaded their neighbors. Or when we forced Britain and France to bend over backwards in the name of appeasing Hitler. Or the part when we entered the war unprovoked without ever being attacked. I must have read a different history book than you.

>>1230673
you actually did. The books are indeed different between usa and eu.
And getting involved in other counties affairs to earn some cash and influence isn't exactly kind of stufff that I'd define as helpful and stabilisatory

>>1230661
The general policy that I have seen explained in several news stories is that North Korean citizens who are traveling must be able to provide their national ID along with authorization from their local government or coop that states the reason for traveling outside their place of residence, how long they are expected to be traveling, the addresses of the place they are staying, family members who will be a point of contact/ responsible, etc. essentially a citizen cannot be "unaccounted for" and is a method to control movement. Ultimately the very fact that there is a designated family member who is responsible for your whereabouts is to serve as a reminder that if you do end up leaving the country that person/family will likely be imprisoned if not worse.

>>1230679
uh, that's fucking horrible

>>1230673
>we
>we
>we
you sure did all that while sitting behind a nice comfy keyboard, big boy

do you have a bitcoin address i can donate to

https://youtu.be/gWIi6Pytde8

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Probably not, it's not going to help the people there. But why would I give a shit? Not a big difference either way.

As an American I worry more about fucking up somehow, or being falsely accused of something so they have a propoganda tool when they need it. Right now North Korea is in desperate need of leverage over the US.

>>1230724
They're too chicken shit to act upon any sort of thing they say will be done if America doesn't meet their demands. Also if you're arrested they can detain you and most likely the US embassy won't do much to save your ass at first if you knew the risks of visiting and still did wrong.

Would anyone like to do a Young Pioneer tour with me?

>>1230779
fuck, I just read the pricing of this
>visit a school with children performing
>visit two museums
>ride to the SK border
1000 euro for 5 days and there are way more expensive options

that's fucking insane. I thought people were exaggerating when they said it's the money feedingthe regime, but now I'm convinced

>>1230499
why are they so obssessed with sending every tour to DMZ?

>>1230789
Because it's insanely cool? Most tourist go to the DMZ on the South Korean side I'd imagine seeing it from the NK side would also be extremely worthwhile.

>>1230661
Yeah basically what >>1230679 said. There are checkpoints along the roads

>>1230724
Why you should give a shit? Because by going there you're giving them your foreign currency, which is needed in order to keep buying luxury goods from Switzerland and elsewhere, to keep the elite class of officers happy.

Unlike most other questionable destinations, you're literally pouring money right into the pocket of one of the most oppressive regimes on earth. You're not supporting the local businesses and the local economy, even if you make a point of going to some of the poorer regions.

>>1230789
They make a point of showing how relaxed it is on the North Korean side of the border. While the atmosphere is indeed very tense on the Southern side, you can have your photo taken with a North Korean (smiling) soldier at the DMZ and generally, it seems that they're doing everything possible to give off a very relaxed vibe.

>>1230522
>implying you didn't destroy Yugoslavia


Also... >Vietnam and the middle east

The list goes on.

Americans are sick. The amount of people you have killed to pursue tour political agenda is sickening.

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Id go if i had the money.

Truth is, goverment is oppressive and shitty in every single country in the world, yes, including the US and Japan.

I had a shitty image of cuba, after the news and everyone told me they were dying of hunger, muh communism, everyone is in jail, muh dictatorship. I still went because i have always wanted to visit a communist/soviet country.

Well, i get there and surprise, everything is normal, and you know what, the worst part is that cubans act like victims even tough they are not hungry or dying or oppressed and live pretty normal lives. They always try to scam you for money, acting poor, while they have a fucking iphones 7.

On the streets, not a lot of police, still felt safe, no poor people begging like in SF and no homeless camps like in LA. Everything was expensive if you were not cuban tho. The coolest place we went to, was some guy antifascist/communist store, he was honest and sold us cuban posters really cheap,

Overall a shitty experience compared to mexico, you know, in mexico at least people try to get you buy them some shit, but if you tell em NO they will go away, cuba was completly different, and people were asshole.

Of course, this has nothing to do with north korea, just talking about my "communist experience". Its all about the money.

>>1230865
You're completely missing the point about why it's especially immoral to visit North Korea. See my former posts:

>>1230654
>>1230841

>>1230845

>Vietnam

I'll take "the French" for $200

>the middle east

Lol. if anything, the US and the Brits are the only reason the whole area hasn't gone up in flames

>>1230845
>Vietnam
French started that
>middle east
No soviets started that silly Eurocuck

>>1230922
>>1230929
I'll take samefag for $10

>>1230499
>using ethics to determine your vacation
Why would anyone do this?

>>1230935
pls be troll
I really couldn't stand the thought of people like you actually living somewhere irl and fucking everything up for the others

>>1230503
>perception of a threat is evidence of the actual threat

good meme

>>1230937
I guess the feeling is very much mutual.
Not a troll BTW.

If I connected everything to other people's ethical interpretations visiting other places would be the least of my problems because I'd have to focus on abandoning my home state first.

Seems like an awful way to live; you're either a hypocrite or a pain in everyone's ass. GTFO please.

>>1230948
You're a fucking idiot, who isn't at all able to see the nuances. Visiting a country where all of the money you pay will inevitably help fund the regime's oppression of it's own citizens is not the same as visiting a country with a somehow oppressive government, and where you can actually support the local economy.

>>1230948
I don't care about everybody's ethics.
But NK is a special case, as we have tons of material explaining the tortures they use against every citizen, which are really fucked up. And they also pose a threat to the world as a whole with their nuclear arms.
Leave your state all you want, I don't care. Just don't cause pain for thousands of the others

>>1230957
>Just don't cause pain for thousands of the others

No. Keep your values off my travels.
If I want to see the hermit kingdom and all it's weirdness I'm going to check it out and have a blast doing so. There are no "special cases".

>>1230959
Well, there's only so much the words can achieve. I hope you die abandoned by your friends and forgotten by your family.

>>1230963
That is a really half-assed attempt at inducing foreboding feels. Try again.

>>1230499
This isn't a question anyone can answer for anyone else. By visiting the DPRK, you are without question helping to fund a regime that is atypically brutal to its citizens and disinterested in most international norms regarding diplomacy, democracy, and good governance.

Bad government is not unique to Korea, and there are plenty of other repressive tinpot dictatorships that people give money to in a wide variety of ways (whether as tourists or by buying cellphones, many of which are made using minerals extracted under inhumane conditions in conflict settings, like in the DRC). But the DPRK treats its citizens worse than many other countries a tourist might visit, and it is easy to argue that by visiting the country you are normalizing these abuses.

An important caveat, however, is that in my opinion, exposure to foreigners, in however tightly scripted and controlled a manner, is fundamentally good for North Korea. It may not make huge change, but meeting, for example, Americans, and realizing that they are not universally imperialist tyrants who want nothing more than to raze Pyongyang to the ground, is healthy for local viewpoints, if only in a tiny way. I share this opinion with NGO and diplomat friends who have been to the DPRK with official delegations and missions.

So there's an ethical trade off to consider. If giving money to a terrible government that wants to force feed you a few weeks of propaganda seems less negative than showing people who have limited access to information and to other countries friendly faces from the West, it's ethically defensible. If any support for a miserable regime is indefensible, it can never be ethical. But that's not a decision I can make for anyone.

Personally, I'd go with a delegation (and in fact just missed a chance to do so) but hesitate to do so as a tourist. But I don't necessarily condemn people who chose to do the latter.

>>1230973
The problem is not normalizing the abuse. The thing about going to North Korea is that you're giving them foreign currency, which they can't get through other means than tourism and shady business dealings (like exporting meth, not sure if that's a thing there anymore). When you're buying a phone, which contains conflict minerals, you're left with virtually no choice if you want a phone. Sure, you could live without a phone, but expecting people not to buy something that for a lot of us is central to how we live our lives, is not the same, in my opinion at least, as expecting people not to go to an oppressive country that you cannot visit without directly funding luxury goods that will keep up the status quo.

I think your argument about the ethical trade-off and the benefits of North Koreans seeing foreigners is far-fetched. First, if your tour group is going to be in Pyongyang and at the DMZ for the whole or 80-90 % of the stay, your presence is literally not worth anything. Even if you go outside of Pyongyang, they'll be able to frame as those few Westerners who actually hate the West and have seen the light in the North Korean way of governing.

Besides, I'm pretty certain that Western people are demonized as much as we might think in the internal propaganda. I've heard former tourists say that the guides told them that the people of North Korea are taught that the U.S. imperialistic government is bad, but not so much that all the people are the same.

The only cases of average North Koreans reacting negatively to foreigners, that I've ever seen or read about, have occurred along the Chinese/NK border, and it seems to be mostly targeted at Chinese tourists looking at the farmers like zoo pets from boats on the Yalu river.

>>1230973
>>1230989
cont.

Do you really think your 500 euros or however much goes to the regime can be justified by a slight chance that some North Koreans might change their perception of foreigners, even when considering how the regime would of course tailor the internal propaganda so that seeing foreigners won't make the North Koreans start having subversive thoughts.

Furthermore, another point to consider is that those in the North Korean society most unaware of the world around them and foreigners, are also those who have absolutely no chance of changing anything. Those higher up the ranks are probably, to an extent, already aware of the fact that foreigners are not inherently evil and that a lot of the propaganda is bullshit, but they're kept happy with privileges.

>>1230503
Personally I don't give my tourist bucks to America. No offence but that country is a disaster. And with trump now...no chance I'm giving his government money.

>>1230995

>that country is a disaster

It's like you've gotten all of your news from the media...

>>1230503
Kek

>>1231000
Hypocrite much?

>>1230841
>you're literally pouring money into the pocket of one of the most oppressive regimes on earth
yawn
who cares

>>1231000
It is a disaster, but that's part of the appeal.

>>1231026
>who cares
Condescending soapboxers care.

>>1231026
>>1230948
>>1230935


This place seems edgier than /b/ today

>>1230956
I doesn't matter either way so the nuances are irrelevant.

I will spend my money how I please no matter how hard you cry or scream 'edgy!'.

>>1230503
Proof of how useless surveys on this sort of thing really are. The US is the major reason there's something resembling world peace in the world today.

>>1230841
>you're literally pouring money right into the pocket of one of the most oppressive regimes on earth.

Yeah, again, I just can't make myself give a shit. The difference in the money from just myself isn't significant and I don't give a shit about things that are philosophically bad but make no difference in reality.

>>1231037
Nothing matters lol XD

>>1231059
I can't make decisions on your behalf, but I just need you to know how childish that sounds.

As long as you people will stop trying to justify going there with terrible arguments and whataboutism.

By going to North Korea as a tourist, you will support the regime in a very direct way that's not seen in many other places, if at all. It will not help the North Korean people that you go there as a tourist and make them see foreigners.

Would you do an organized tour in ISIS territory if you somehow knew you were going to be safe while on the tour, but that most of the money will go towards funding oppression with your much needed dollars?

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go for the cute girls

>>1231072
btw is it even possible to fuck anybody there with all those minders around?

>>1231061
What makes you say that?

I think having a good trip, and enjoying the experiences I planned for matter.

>>1230522
on the other hand you're a nation somehow more autistic than finland

lol

>>1231075
I don't think so when you're actually in NK.

But there's a Chinese town very close by, I've heard that with the right connections some of the single men there can hook up with Korean girls from the North.

Arranging that shit without being fluent in both Chinese and Korean would make me really uncomfortable though, I wouldn't risk it. You're better off saving up for a pricey call girl in Seoul or getting a girlfriend from rural China.

>>1230682
It's a figure of speech, you autistic fuck.

>>1230682
The royal we!
We are not amused.

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>>1231072

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>>1231107

>>1231072
Questions about their looks aside, I wonder what they think if you made them listen to something like Nick Cave's intenser songs live.

>>1231135
Anon, this question is actually a good question.
If I ever get to NK I'll definitely try to check it out

btw does the regime frown upon Nick Cave or is he ok enough for them?

>>1231137
only Murder Ballads and Let Love In are approved by DPRK customs for entering the country.

>>1231152
kek
but shouldn't Let Love In be banned for the sake of the title only?
Let love in to nk. That's just some bad pr for them if you ask me

>>1230871
Cuba was more socialist than communist, but I don't expect you to know the difference. NK has hard communism and is only socialist in name. You will be able to compare both systems if you decide to go to NK one day.

t. ex-yugoslavian

>>1230503
Why does so much of Africa hate France?

>>1231159
they love Kylie Minogue so they allow it.

>>1230676
So then anon, please explain how the USA caused both world wars.

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>>1230503

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>>1230499
Somebody convince me that my staying home would make Dear Leader 2.0 change his batshit-crazy totalitarian ways, and I'll agree it is unethical for me to go there.

But in the meantime, there is some value in bearing witness to things. I know how the situation in NK is reported in media over here, but the media have been known to cling to a narrative in the face of countervailing facts from time to time. The government here certainly have an opinion on NK, but again, like the media, but more so.

Near as I can make out from talking to folks who have been there, the story I'm hearing about NK is pretty spot on -- but their being there serves as a check on propaganda put out by various parties -- including the Norks, whose clumsy "look how gloriously happy we are" show fools pretty much nobody, far as I can tall.

I think there is also some value in keeping up contacts with at least a few people there. Let them know the outside world is still here, and that we may not all be the demonic baby cannibals DL 2.0 wants them to think we are. Sure, we're only going to interact with a few chosen folks the DL thinks can be trusted -- but that's maybe better than interacting with nobody.

Finally, if I restricted my travel only to places that had governments I strongly approve of, I'd never get to go much of anywhere. There are times I couldn't even stay home!


.

>>1230654
>There are apparently lots of different places along the border where you can have a look at farmers, villages, soldiers, etc.

That sounds a lot like the whole "Human Zoo" poverty tourism thing to me. I'd think there'd be more value in going there, and having such limited interactions as are allowed.

>>1231313
>>1231085
>>1231057
>>1230929
>>1230922
>>1230845
>>1230682
>>1230673
>>1230582
>>1230532
>>1230522
>>1230503


This is a travel board, we post about travel here. Please take your off-topic political posts elsewhere.

>>1231323
Your logic is flawed and naive. There's not much value in letting the North Koreans know that people have not forgotten about them. The people in the higher ranks know that the propaganda is bullshit and for lower class people they'll just tailor the internal propaganda.

You staying at home would mean that you don't help directly funding the regime. When going to most other states with questionable governments, you'll be able to support the local economy - in North Korea you will not.

>>1231324
I see what you mean, but I think there's indeed a contrast between waving and pointing from a boat on the Yalu river packed with obnoxious Chinese tourists, and just strolling along some interesting border spots, taking a few pictures, etc. In that way you're not funding the regime, and, in my opinion, you're still acting respectfully.

>>1230599
>being a dick

>>1230676
>Zimmerman Telegram

>>1231340
>Your logic is flawed and naïve.

No you!

Now getting past the silly name calling, let's read on and find your point, see what I think about it...

>There's not much value in...

I think I was clear that I agree the value is small, but that I think some value is better than none. By the same token, the potential damage I would do by spending money on the tour is very small, yes? In fact, the good or harm my visit would do is infinitesimal, right?

I put more value on the possible good than on the possible bad, I'm not sure that is naïve. It might just mean I assess that balance differently than you do.

>. When going to most other states with questionable governments, you'll be able to support the local economy...

Which is fine but not my motive for traveling.

Since you didn't address anything I said about the value of direct experience, I'll assume you were willing to give me that one.

When all is said and done, we assess that situation differently. That's fine with me, sorry if it bothers you, but hey, such is life.

>>1231398
Go fuck yourself and your ideals.

>>1230499
Is it ethical to visit the US?

>They spy on everyone, including americans
>kidnap and torture people, often for no reason
>run torture prisons around the world.
>kill people with drones, often for no reason and without a fair trial
>topple democratically elected governments because they don't like them
>In a perpetual state of war
>Destabilizing whole regions

Was it ethical to visit south africa during apartheid? Is it ethical to visit China? Russia? Dunno, you tell me.

If you go to best korea, your money goes directly to the regime. So your money may end up helping in oppressing people. On the other hand, your presence there might help locals to understand that there is a world outside of NK and that not all foreigners are devils.

It's all a matter of perspective, really.

>>1231468
>implying it's ever ethical to leave your mom's basement

And in order to stay there you must pay 3/4 the rent. Because you're not just paying for the current time you're there you have to compensate your parents for the time when you were growing up otherwise it's unethical.

>>1230499
As ethical as visiting any country you don't agree with. Tax on purchases in the US go to our military, same in Russia. I'll be going on young pioneers May Day tour in a month, has anyone else been, or have experience with YPT?

>>1231434
as for a guy who's so strong and independent you really care a lot about other people's ideas

It is not, unless you plan on taking photos of the shit thats fucked up and spreading it out here

If you value getting past US customs in a breeze, I would not go to North Korea

I've been debating this myself for awhile now. I've always been fascinated by the fact that entering North Korea is like entering a time capsule from the 50s, but if I were to ever visit, my money is going to a country that puts people in concentration camps and mass executes political dissidents.

I dont think id be able to sleep well knowing where my money was going there, and I wouldn't feel safe there either.

For Malaysians like me, going to NK was pretty easy, just need to hop on a plane there and thats it
We don't even have to go through all the shit Western tourists go through with all the people following you around, we are actually allowed to go off on our own.

All thats changed now obviously

>>1231326
NO FUN

>>1231432
We're not discussing your motives for travelling, we're discussing whether visiting North Korea is ethical.

What I'm asking is just that people like you stop making up excuses for why it's actually a good thing to visit North Korea and how you being there will be of any value to anyone but yourself.

You're mixing things up - I'd really love to visit North Korea, but I've just decided that I can't justify it. I'm not implying that such a trip would not have immense value TO YOU. It'd probably be a very interesting experience. Just admit that it's not ethical and that you're not doing anything for anyone but yourself. You can't just say that you put more value on the possible good, when it's such a theoretical possibility - most likely your visit won't do any good and it certainly will do bad.

>>1231582
By going to North Korea you're directly allowing them to receive foreign cash, which most of the world's countries they shouldn't be allowed to receive for very good reasons. I'd argue that it's a different case than going to the U.S. and paying taxes

>>1231588
... but you won't ever see the shit that's fucked up. You'll see the bizarre, sure, but not the ugly side

>>1230499
Is it ethical to live in China?

>>1231742

is not ethical to go to places like Cuba either, but people do.

>>1231742
Not him, but I where would you draw the line? Is it ethical to visit Russia? Any country in Africa or the middle east? Is it ethical to visit USA? If you do, do you not help support their governments? Are you going to take responsibility for bad stuff they are doing? If so, I disagree.

I believe that it is "always" a good thing to expose people to new cultures. Even if it is just a little.

>>1231812
Interesting to read your list. I was just contemplating whether I really want to enter the USA again. I refused to go to Russia, etc, now USA I'm thinking of adding to the same list...

>>1231752
Is it ethical to exist?

Have you thought about your inevitable carbon footprint? The people you've been unintentionally rude to over the years? I'd tell you to commit suicide, but that would break your parent's hearts therefore it is not ethical.

>>1231812
I suspect he draws the line wherever it is convenient for him.

Most of the world hates North Korea, so refusing to visit on so-called ethical grounds earns him the praise he undoubtedly seeks; meanwhile there are plenty of other countries that one could easily argue as unethical to visit that I'm sure he would go to so long as the place's corruption wasn't as widely publicized.

>>1230499
you post on 4chan, you shouldn't have ethics

>>1230499
>Is it ethical

yes

Altough it is a waste of money. I travelled there, and as always I watched tons of videos on the internet about these tours.

Well here goes the suprise

IT WAS THE SAME FUCKING EVERYTHING.

I went there 3 years ago, it still feels like the biggest waste of money in my all life.

>>1230845
The Serbs destroyed Yugoslavia. The UN watched. America's only fault was not intervening earlier.

>>1231812
Wew, wew, WEW.

Would you people please read the fucking thread?

I've laid out in VERY clear terms why I think North Korea is a different case. I think I've come up with many convincing arguments, but it seems like people are not really able to comprehend them.

North Korea is different, because you're giving them something that they couldn't get in other ways - foreign currency. That foreign currency is extremely important for the regime, to uphold their twisted class-based society, where elites are kept happy, NOT because they believe the propaganda, but because they receive Western luxury gifts and other privileges. Whenever you buy something in Russia or the US, you pay a bit of tax, but you're also supporting the local economy. In North Korea, I can assure you that every single penny of what you bring in will be used by the regime to uphold the status quo.

>I believe that it is "always" a good thing to expose people to new cultures. Even if it is just a little.

Again, this is a desperate and extremely misguided argument. Would you really justify directly funding the regime's oppression by the slight chance that you MIGHT change one or two people's perspective of foreigners, which is HIGHLY unlikely?

>>1231895
You're not even trying to engage with my arguments. I want so badly to see North Korea, but I've decided against it, because there's no way I could every justify that. If I were looking for praise, I'd probably go somewhere else than an anonymous board, you moron.

>>1232321
Yeah, I think a minimal 0.001% chance of changing the mind of 1 or 2 guards is worth giving some pocket change to the regime.

Draw the line wherever you want mate, each to his own i guess. I don't agree with you though.

>>1232404
But that's absurd. Why won't you just admit that it's not ethical, but that you'd do it anyways.

What really bothers me is that you keep insisting on it actually being a good thing - that you're helping the people. That's delusional and hopefully you'll take the time to actually research North Korea beyond the clichés. North Koreans already are well aware of their hardships, and foreigners are generally treated with curiosity and smiles.

What is it that you're hoping to change?

>pocket change
*vital inflow of foreign currency

>>1232404
>>1232437
Oh, and I forgot to point out that you're not at all countering my arguments. You can't always just throw the "each to his own I guess, I don't agree with you though"-card

>>1232437
Not him, and while I agree that it isn't ethical, I'm pretty sure $2k is pocket change to them. Kim spends millions and millions a year on silly luxury stuff, 2k won't make a difference.

By the way - how about some hard numbers?
Anyone knows how many tourists actually visit NK a year?

And what are the prices?

>>1232007
more deets pls

>hypocrites

I guarantee that some of these people saying it's ethical to go to North Korea believe it is unethical to go to UAE.

>>1232321
>I've laid out in VERY clear terms why I think North Korea is a different case. I think I've come up with many convincing arguments, but it seems like people are not really able to comprehend them.

Some of us may comprehend them, but do not agree with them.

>>1231812
If you stay home, do you support any bad thing YOUR country might happen to do?

>>1231742
>We're not discussing your motives for travelling, we're discussing whether visiting North Korea is ethical.

They are related, if you can't see that there s little reason for us to discuss it.

Nothing you have said makes me change my mind, and it would make zero sense for me to adopt a set of ethical guidelines that look too much like virtue signaling to me, just to make some Anon I'll never meet think well of me.

>I'd really love to visit North Korea, but I've just decided that I can't justify it.

Amusingly, I have limited interest in visiting, but f the opportunity arises feel no need to justify it to you or anybody else.

>By going to North Korea you're directly allowing them to receive foreign cash, which most of the world's countries they shouldn't be allowed to receive for very good reasons.

Then those countries should institute a travel ban and embargo. If they haven't, then they apparently do not want to stop the Norks from getting access to tourism money -- under your rubric, for very good reasons.

>>1232485
According to wikipedia, 1500 western tourists visit NK a year.

>>1232437
Alright, I'll counter you.

First of all. Basically ALL travel is unethical as it increase the production of greenhouse gasses. You are literally making the world a worse place by traveling for fun.

Secondly, you are using an arbitrary standard of what makes traveling to DPRK worse then say, traveling to the US. If you look at maximization of altruism for instance, it is quite possible that a trip to the US (which by the way makes a lot more money from tourism), creates more unhappiness in the world. We understand your reasoning, but we don't agree that you have a valid conclusion.

Thirdly, you keep deluding yourself with your standards of "only way they get foreign currency", which is not true. You seem to have a lack of research regarding the subject. The majority of the foreign resources in DPRK comes from the, so called, "Sunshine Policy" of the South Korean government, as well as foreign aid. The reason for the tourism is more political then financial, as it creates a chance for DPRK to "boast" or "show of" to the rest of the world.

I recommend that you read some books about North Korea, "Dear Leader. Poet, Spy, Escapee" by Jan Jing-sun is a good starting point.

>>1232321
>if you don't agree with me it's because you're not intelligent enough to understand my arguments
>arguments aren't even correct

Get out. Only people with passports who have left their basement allowed on this board. Take your butthurt elsewhere.

>>1232582
This is an interesting aspect for me personally, as I have left my home precisely because I did not agree with my goverment to that extent.

>>1232618
this makes it about a million euro of tourist income for NK

is it much? I honestly don't know

>>1232682
Kim Jong Un will consume that in food and drinks within a week.

>>1232518
this

>>1232682
On a national level it is nothing more then pocket change. It is a rounding error in the book keeping.

>>1232647
>all travel is unethical
I mean, I don't own a car and I don't travel every year - I don't think my carbon footprint from activities that I do for fun is above the acceptable limit. It's not that we can't emit any CO2 at all, however we maybe shouldn't be driving big 4x4's and flying on holidays 3-4 times a year.

>your second point
When going to the U.S., you're entering a country that does very good and very bad things. You're entering on your own, you support the country's economy indirectly through taxes, but you're free to roam around, interact with the people and support the local economy.

When going to North Korea, they'll not allow you to interact with people freely, and thus you won't have the opportunity to change their perception of foreigners. Also, before we were arguing whether you were actually doing something good by going there and exposing them to foreigners, which you kept arguing is the case. That's delusional, especially as long as people keep doing those tours where you spend all your time in Pyongyang, at the DMZ and in a few other well-established tourist destinations, where the sight of foreigners DEFINITELY won't change anything.

>third point
You're right that it's not the only way, but it's one of them.

It seems that your knowledge about North Korea is outdated. Yes, they still receive some foreign aid, BUT it's extremely limited these days - and nothing compared to what they got in the 00's. In both South Korea and the US there has been reluctance to give them aid, because they haven't really distributed it in a fair and transparent way.

The Sunshine Policy was ended in 2010. South Korea closed most of their joint business zones. They, however, make money off of illicit trade, especially over the Chinese-NK border.

>>1232647
>>1232752
cont.:

The motivation for opening up for tourists in the 80's was that Kim Il-Sung was inspired by Fidel Castro to open up the country for tourism, and that was for economical reasons. I'm not saying that tourism is funding the entire nuclear programme, but it's significant, and those numbers that are quoted with about 1500 Western tourists going there each year are heavily outdated. One source I found says 5-6000 and that's without all of the many Chinese tourists.

So your recommendation for me is to read a book written by someone, who hasn't been in North Korea since 2005?

>>1232753
provide us with your sources please

>>1232753
Alright, I'll try to be as clear as I can, as there seem to be great misunderstanding regarding what I am trying to say.

It is fine that you have drawn a line that you stick by, but I DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT LINE. I still think that introducing foreign elements is the only way to change a country, however slowly that may be.

The reason I recommended that book was because it shows the story of a man that was not disillusioned until he was introduced to foreign cultures. In that case it was South Korea.

Of course it is not "as bad" to go to the USA as DPRK, but the point was that all travel is bad, and again, I do not agree with the line you have drawn. For me the line would be when you are directly use your money to harm or kill people. I have not seen any evidence that DPRK would become a democracy a single day earlier if tourism stopped. If you stop trading and starve North Korea, do you think its the Kim family that suffer or the common people? I think that if more people traveled their they would be more open to DPRK. Embargoes does not work.

Not that it matter, but I have 0 interest is going there. But I see it as no worse then going to any Arabic/North African or non-democracy. Any I welcome people to travel wherever they wish, as long as they are kind and friendly.

Thank you for this discussion, but I do not think we will come any further. I'll read any response you might have, but then I'm out.

>>1230522
Fuck off Burgers!