Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

Why do druids get an entire zone to themselves? I mean, yeah, Moonglade is nice, but still.

>>46828115
I think they originally had more plans for Moonglade before the whole Emerald Dream storyline got put on the back burner.

System mechanics aside, what races, classes, and factions would you allow for PCs in a Warcraft ttrpg. Explain your reasoning.

>>46827334

Cairne Bloodhoof is an unsung hero that would have slapped Thrall's shit if he was still alive.

>>46828972

Ever race that can hold weapons and wear clothing. Come on we're playing the rpg not wow the ttrpg

>>46829003
> need clothing

I would totally allow a naked murloc warrior in my group.

>>46829496

Nothing wrong with weird genderless nudity fellow anon. Reason why Lizardmen/Naga are so cool.

[Spoiler] as long as it's not een excuse to talk gibberish at the table[/spoiler]

>>46829671
Murloc are fully capable of regular talking if taught
Ergll and sir finley are examples.

You can also learn murloc tongue apparently.
The joy of the entire group talking in murloc.
Hey that can actually be used as a plot point!

Where do Murloc come from anyway? They're all over Azeroth yet they have next to no actual lore aside from "angry xenophobic fish men"

>>46830046
They come from the deep ocean, they rose with the naga during the 3rd war

>>>46824880
With all the corruption in Warcraft universe, it's nice to see that every once in a while even demons can start reconsidering the whole "destroy everything" goal of the Legion and decide that they want to lead a pious, peaceful life instead.

Corruption is on it's way out, Enlightenment is the new deal!

>>46830378
>Corruption is on it's way out,
dreadlords are inherently evil so becoming holy is corruption

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>tfw no thick blood elf women

>>46830378
this isnt enough information, i demand to know more

>>46830425
investigate drdraevling, while this board isn't fit for it, undermines yfw

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>tfw this general started because we were discussing elf feet.
based.

>>46827334

On a side note, in my 4e sessions I made both light and dark Arakkoa. Will post em later today when I'm back from work.

>>46831047
Nice. I made a Death Knight class for 5th edition, but it's still under some work.

>>46830080
Nah, we had murlocs up and about in both kalimdor and ek in reign of chaos.

>>46829893
So was the murlocs in that extra campaign with thrall and the trolls.
Pretty intricate speech at that.

>>46831296

Are murlocs not just proto-trolls?

And thus proto-elfs, who are mutant trolls >>46831296
since the Well of Eternity fucked them over.

So where the fuck is Vol'Jin?

Is the "Murlocs retain their identity even after being turned undead" thing still canon?

>>46827334
>There will never be a Naga expansion where they are doing some Old Gods shit.
>You'll never board a Gnome/Goblin submarine and waltz into their undersea kingdom.
>You'll never spank those wonderfully scaly Mermaid butts and force the males to watch.

Hurts man. And Blizzard would screw it up with bad writing.

>>46831032
Outstanding I would say dear anon.

Did they really just kill off Varian?

>>46832637
The reason why we won't, is because people are deathly afraid of the ocean. Had a buddy so afraid he avoided the underwater level of Cataclysm like it was a plague.

>>46832637

Play Vashj'ir anon. Over and over and over again.

I miss the old Orgrimmar architecture. It was comfy as fuck. New grey metal spikes and lava and the additional goblin tech makes everything feels hot and smoggy and really uncomfortable.

>>46832547
"Missing in Action" i.e. Blizzard couldn't figure out what to do with him, so they just decided to put off the decision till later.

>>46832956
Darn humans and their cowardice.

>>46832961
Not enough anon. Not enough.

>>46833204
They'll do a Muradin and make him amnesiac.

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it would appear that hearthstone is adding a bunch of corrupted darkshire cards in their new expansion. makes you wonder what the story is there, was it inspired by the rogue legendary quest or vice versa?

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>>46833292
I am liking the Darkshire Alchemist. She is sexy. I am already having fantasies with her....

Well time go back to playing priest decks

>>46833292
can't wait for the Councilman -> Renounce Darkness -> Muster highlight clips

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>>46827334
>Nagas rule
Whilst naga are cool, I'm afraid that the vrykul are better.

>>46832547
He fucked off to the pub for some drinks with Varian

>>46833582
I wish the Alliance had vrykul allies after the events of WotLK

Not a lot, and not as a playable race just a few vendors or questgivers here and there in Alliance towns

>>46832926
For now, I'm assuming he'll get better somehow

>>46830378
>>46830432
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYubHrPOv_4&t=9m37s

He's shown here at 9:37, where he's got angel wings and shows up with a bunch of Draenei. He's High Commander of the Grand Army of Light.

>>46833614
That would be quite cool. I hope something more is done with them eventually.

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>>46833480
She's not bad, but I guess I prefer the librarian.

Dem legs.

>>46833889
I find it hard to associate old gods with shadow, despite what chronicles tells us

Shadow clearly represents metaphysical stagnation, but the old gods clearly bring chaos, the opposite of stagnation.

>>46833933
To address your point with a quest quote...
>Creatures of the void are naturally chaotic. They are a necessary part of the universe, but they must be kept in check by the Light.
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=29674/unbound-darkness

I think the main element of the Void is the desire to consume, whether more directly or through assimilation, and the Old Gods seem to share that.

>>46833848
>that entire thing with turaylon and alleria
Blizzard pls.

>>46833614
Didn't the vrykul basically disown humans because they were tiny and blobby?

>>46834825
What about it? The fact that they were somehow promoted to such high positions in the Army of Light?

>>46834871
It's the fact that Turalyon and Alleria has been one of the longest-lasting brick jokes in all of Warcraft, dating back to WC2, and only now - literal decades later - do we finally get anything about them. And yet all we got was a canned message saying "If you're watching this, the Legion are coming. I don't know if we'll survive where we are. We love you son."

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Legion question:
Why are you not playing DK? Because you hate the azeroth and freedom?

>>46834913
But I will be, once it goes on sale.
Paladin questline
>greatest champion of the light
>son we love you
>but our armies are dead.
>we fought for a thousand years and formed a mighty faggot

DK questline

>what we are doing will make us hated, but so be it.
>Bolvar sama letting us use frostmourne
>Thassarian's entire line about koltira
>"Koltira deathweaver cannot fight in chains, so we will break them."

Get rekt paladins and Demonhunters.

Just going to say it's weird how you've guys kept a general for Warcraft going for months now. I remember the occasional thread showing up on /tg/ since 2009, but never anything as sustained as this? What happened?

>>46834968
One dude started a Warcraft thread weeks ago, and people just ran with it.

>>46834913
>>46834965
Fuck off to >>>/v/ to discuss the games

>>46834896
Well, they also sent a Dreadlord to help, so I think they might be fine.

>>46834968
We talk about the lore and quest ideas. Plus blizzard has lost all interest in it, so we are trying to save whatever remains like the elegan/tg/entlemen that we are.

And hey, it has some cool fucking things.

>>46834965
DK questline

>We are defined by our resistance to the Lich King
>HEY GUYS! LETS GO WORK FOR THE LICH KING!

Poor Death Knights, the entire basis of their class story, completely shat upon.

>>46832547
Hopefully rotting in a pile of demon shit.

>>46835021
>Being this much of a fag

>>46835002
The problem with "saving" warcraft is that every game/expansion up to WoD has something worth "saving" that you can't "save" without discarding something else worth "saving" from a different game/expansion

>>46835005
Well the DKs pretty much get told by bolvar that if they don't stop the legion invasion, he will.

So they are pretty much racing against the clock. If they slip, Bolvar lets slip the scourge

>>46835005
Bolvar wanted to join the fight against the Legion and promised not to use mind control or any other sort of subversion like Arthas did. Yes, the PC death knight becomes Deathlord of the Ebon Blade (equivalent to paladin Highlord) and answers directly to Bolvar, but the death knights still maintain their free will.

>>46835045
>>46835047
That explains it, but it does not refute my point of "poor death knights"

>>46835036
you pretty much can save the minor lore tidbits because they are neat. I hated the story in MoP, but I would love to run a story where the PCs are pandas from the wandering isle who stumble into pandaria and go across murderhoboing.

>>46835079
The story of MoP is not worth saving, but Pandaria as a place is.

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So, they're starting to add quests for the Cult of Forgotten Shadow now. Unfortunately, they're still missing NPCs and can't be completed.

Anyhow, it seems like the belief in "Balance" from the magazine is still there, but they're definitely Void-wielding Shadow Priests. Which is what they should be, since they formed as the counterbalance to the Church of the Holy Light.

>>46835110
pretty much. I just wish blizzard didn't just try their cringe philosophical bullshit.

>>46835030
Sorry, but Darkspear are just dog shit.

>>46834968
It's a condensed version of the story forums which are too often plagued by forum celebrities and people competing for upvotes.

>>46835110
Well, if we're really discussing it as an RPG setting, then the story of MoP doesn't matter too much. You're not going to be retelling WoW in your campaign.

>>46835141
Why not? The philosophy of Pandaria is very taoist, perfect for not-China

Again, unless you're talking about the storyline, because I don't know what they were trying to say there, but it was stupid as hell

>>46835175
>not running a RPG campaign where metzen plays an orc shaman-orc multiclasser and Kosak makes a slutty elf necromancer-ranger with luck rolls up the wazoo.

>>46835176
>The philosophy of Pandaria is very taoist, perfect for not-China
I think he means the Sha shit
>video game violence is bad! Please take us seriously we played Spec Ops

How do you translate the pandaren racial 'bouncy' into an RPG?

>>46835150
What's your problem with the most civilized trolls in the world?

>>46835292
hunchbacked races are not civilized.

>>46835292
obviously the Drakkari are the most civilized because they became atheists

>>46835077
Live as an edgy teenager vs Live in eternal glory senpai.

Edgy teen no more, also they serve Bolvar The Lich King not Arthas the Lich King (whom they killed).

>>46835047
>Deathlord of the Ebon Blade
I still love how this works
>Hey kid, bossman wants to talk with you 'bout shit, not my problem nomore
>And then mograine jumped into a wyrm and rough rides towards the tomb of sargeras

>>46835386
>tirion goes out like a faggot, giving his sword to a cow paladin and coughing
>Mograine re enacts the WoTLK intro.

>DKs come in, break down the front door and give tirion a wet willy.

Seriously though, I would love if they rezzed arthas instead of Tirion.

>>46835218
The point of MoP was for the Horde to look at itself and evaluate how twisted they had become. If you play as Alliance you're the good guys trying to stop the Horde, but if you played as Horde you were split between forces that wanted to conquer and get glory and those that were trying to get back the bonds of brotherhood that Thrall's horde was founded on. Consequently, the reason the Forsaken were completely neglected in the expansion is because they don't fit that narrative at all.

>>46835359
>people actually believe Bolvar is incorruptible

Have you seen his quests in legion? He is already breaking folks and the Ebon Blade willingly become his thralls.

>>46835446
>6000 or so deathlords sitting around
>Soooo we gave tirion a wet willy and a double atomic wedgie to bring him back... Who the fuck do we rez now, hope you all used the straw poll.
>Arthas - 91%

>>46835498
>>Arthas - 91%
>it wouldn't be fair to the horde players to have the guy who slaughtered the high elves and the people of lordaeron.
>forsaken plague deployments intensify in the background

>>46835498
I wonder what they did with Arthas' body. If they buried him you know the Cult would either try to rez him or take a foot as a relic or something.

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>>46835315
Last I checked, female trolls stand upright, and male trolls slouch.

>>46835479
The Horde descended into full-blown civil war for the first time since Thrall left for Kalimdor. It's never happened before, and it's indicative of just how divisive Garrosh and his orcs were.

>>46835350
The loa of Zul'Drak were verifiable, tangible beings. And the Drakkari straight up ate them because they panicked at the Scourge offensive.

>>46835549
>So we're bringing back Ner'zhul, doomhammer and Anduin

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>>46833933
>Shadow
>stagnation
Oh, that is but a minor aspect of it all. The great primordial truths are simple - Light creates, Shadow hungers. Shadow is unable to create, it is unable to survive on its own, and yet its hunger is insatiable, so it always finds something to feed upon. The Old Gods are a perfect manifestation of this primordial function - like great parasytic organisms, a grand cancer for the world they attach to and become a part of, they feed from the host, spawning myriad of smaller void creatures to feed from the likewise smaller creatures that inhabit the planet.

But these are just the major, clear manifestations of this primordial principle. To draw upon the Shadow is to draw upon one's own selfishness. An adherent of Shadow is a vampiric creature in all its connotations - from a monstrous puppet of void energies merely wearing a mortal guise as a mask to a simple, greedy, envious and selfish person that is willing to exploit others for his own gain. But where the actions of a lowly person merely mimic the grand primordial principle with no real inherent gains in terms of shadow magic, theirs is a similar manifestation still - the hunger still remains, the appetite only grows as the person gets what he wanted by feeding off of someone else's hard work.

Stagnation is merely what happens when this process becomes routine on all levels of this primordial principle and the embodiment of the creative forces of Light does not fight back or does so only to a standstill. It is a side effect, a kind of equilibrium where both the creative and hungering forces are in balance.

>>46833292
>>46833889
Having them be corrupted in a Non-canon Old Gods expansion to a card game is cool.

Having them join the Legion in Canon is not.

>>46835487
He's mildly crazy with ghosts rattling around in his brain, but you help him break out of that.

>>46836532
The issue is the Old Gods always seemed able to create lots of life (Or at least extra Biomass) so having them as simple servants of the hungering void is boring,

>>46836532
But darkness does not consume, it does nothing, because darkness isn't something, but rather the lack of something. The stagnation of shadow comes from light being erased, in which case all is shadow, and nothing ever changes, because there is no energy to change with.

>>46836828
In the case of Warcraft's cosmology, Shadow and Darkness actually are something, not just the absence of light.

>>46836828
That's nice and all but in WoW shadow is the void and is a consuming world devouring source of power that opposes light.

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>>46836822
They create on the same level as a parasite creates when spawning its offspring - they are not the selfless creations of the creatures of Light who create as something entirely self-fulfilling. A parasite creates only to preserve the principle of feeding upon someone else, a base urge of a living creature that is second only to seeking sustenance to preserve its life. Parasites serve no other purpose and are incapable of any form of creation that is selfless. Such is the nature of the Old Gods, all their creations, their grand temple cities and empires, they all are merely tools that ultimately serve one purpose - to sate their endless hunger.

>>46836828
Why do you think the Void hungers so, when it has nothing, when it knows nothing but eternal scarcity? Why else would it desperately try to devour all it comes across, but to (pardon the pun) fill the void that is inherent to its existence? It has no other purpose than to selfishly devour, for it bears the curse of being the dualistic antithesis of selfless creation.

>>46836532
>Shadow is unable to create
>spawning myriad of smaller void creatures
Don't contradict yourself there. The universe in Warcraft was created by both Light and Void.

While the Void is generally depicted as self-oriented, I'm not sure I'd say every wielder is strictly selfish. However, there's generally some pragmatic self-oriented angle to it, like how helping or respecting others can be beneficial to oneself.

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>>46837428
So you're saying that it's not that they can't create anything good, but that they will not?

>>46837483
What you see as a contradiction, is merely the property of the beings slightly further away from the pure void on the Light - Void scale. Old Gods are still undeniably spawns of Void and their base principle is to devour, but they are creatures of the material plane, and thus are bound by the rules of such creatures, namely, procreation to continue their form. Perhaps the analogy of an Old God as a massive organism and all the countless Faceless Ones it spawns as cells would work better? These small cells divide, grow, feed to survive themselves and work endlessly to feed the larger organism.

It is the pure Void that is absolutely incapable of creation, but that does not exist in the material plane, nor can it ever. In the cosmic plane, however, yes, its hunger is absolute.

Remember, all paradoxes can be reconciled.

>>46837564
>>46838036
Indeed. These beings are unable to create anything that does not ultimately lead to the end goal of feeding upon something else. Of course, the further we go on the scale of how material they are, the lesser this principle, but nonetheless it is always there.

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>>46834968
Blizzard released the Chronicles book

>>46835446
Who gives a fuck about Tirion? its all about that resurgence of Whitemane smut/art.

>>46838611
>Who gives a fuck about Tirion? its all about that resurgence of Whitemane smut/art.
thassarianxsally when?

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Who wants some Night Elf Paladins?

>>46838528
Yes, but the Old Gods themselves are the creations of the Void Lords, who are exceptionally pure Void creatures. The Void can create, but it mostly chooses to do so only in service to itself.

Oh, and the Peacock there is a reference to Angra Mainyu, since we're discussing dualistic forces of good and evil.

>>46838701

>Who wants some Night Elf Paladins?
If they have moon-based recolors to their spells? Hell fucking yes.

Why isn't that already a glyph for priests?

>Yes, but the Old Gods themselves are the creations of the Void Lords, who are exceptionally pure Void creatures. The Void can create, but it mostly chooses to do so only in service to itself.
There were mentions that the Void Lords managed to reach into the universe and twist lesser creatures, the Old Gods may have been "Created" in the same way.

>>46838701
>Night Elf Paladins?

Fuck yes. Makes way more sense than Sun-Druids and jew priests.

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>>46838611
Posting best DK.

>>46838750
>Thus they pooled their power and hurled dark creatures throughout the physical universe, hoping some would smash into a world-soul. An unknown number of the void lords’ creations hurtled through the Great Dark.

Chronicles says they're their creations. I think we can safely say the Void is capable of creation and healing. It's just not its main focus.

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>>46838701
Nelf paladins make as much as beef knights or jew shamans so whatever.

I'm just happy DK's are finally getting lore treatment that i've been wanting to see used for them since Cata. Shame I have virtually no interest in playing Legion. Then again Blizz surprised me with Overwatch

>>46838611

>>46838852

>Thassarian training sally 'personally' and pumping her pussy full of dark cum that gets purified.
>due to her faith in the light and excessive fucking they find love

>>46838701
>Peacock there is a reference to Angra Mainyu
Ah yes, I thought it seemed familiar but couldn't immediately piece it together. Quite naturally, the Light-Void dichotomy can me successfully compared to Ahura Mazda - Angra Mainyu dichotomy and the endless conflict that spans all existence, including its manifestation as an internal battle within the self.

And I would repeat myself, but the Old Gods are merely a manifestation of this primordial principle - Void. After all, they too exist only to devour, corrupt, cause chaos, madness and destruction. As they are material beings, they must follow the rules of the matter. Likewise, for Void to exist in other planes of existence, it has to adapt to their rules. For a truly successful list of pairs, we lack a fleshy manifestation of Light in the vein that the Old Gods are of Void. I suppose one would not be entirely wrong to say that the Titans are a manifestation of the Light of such magnitude. Still, as Naaru are the purest possible material manifestation of Light, so too are the lesser Void Gods (such as Entropius) that are only able to manifest briefly and at the expense of great power.

>>46838783
>Makes way more sense than Sun-Druids
Explain that to me. Night elves already have sentinels and priestesses.

>>46838910
>Thassarian
>Girls
hahahaha
Also
>DKs
>For sexual

>>46839008
>For a truly successful list of pairs, we lack a fleshy manifestation of Light in the vein that the Old Gods are of Void.
I think that might just be regular life.
>The cataclysmic birth of the cosmos also flung shards of Light throughout reality. These shards suffused the matter of myriad worlds with the spark of life, giving rise to creatures of wondrous and terrible diversity.

Old Gods and their creations strike me as an inversion of true life, which is perhaps the meaning behind the statement "They do not live." The Old Gods were not created from the same shards of Light, and so wouldn't be possessed of the same spark of life, making them something more akin to a form of anti-life.

I suppose the important detail here is that Void seems to only heal or create as a conscious action. Light energy will heal and create spontaneously, and Void will typically wither and drain. However, Shadow Mend has been a thing for awhile, even if it was limited to NPCs before.

So, I'd say the Void can create and heal, but it's simply not inclined to do so.

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>>46839181
Tauren Paladins are Druids who worship the sun and wear plate.

Night Elf Priestesses of the Moon are basically Paladins with a preference for archery to begin with.

>>46839820
>>Thassarian
>>Girls
Well he's buddies with Koltira so it stands to reason he'd be straight as his blade

>>46841060

Thassarian is a true bro senpai, he isn't a sex starved virgin who doesn't know that dick doesn't go in crazy or zombie.

>>46838701
I would cream myself if Nelves got silver colored light for their priests

>>46836532
>>46837428
>>46837483

The Church of the Holy Light preaches that, if you act outwardly, you may alter the world. The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow teaches that you may change the world if you act inwardly, or so I understand it.

This reflects how Light and Shadow function. They're bound in a cycle of giving and receiving power, as we've already established.

The original Naaru lore greatly helped to demonstrate this cycle, where a Naaru passes energy to the creatures surrounding it until it is completely drained. At this point, it turns into a being of Shadow and needs to consume energy until it is capable to give.

This has nothing to do with greed, but simply the idea that no force in the universe can just "give", but needs to consume in order to be replenished.

Even as you are a simple mortal civilian, the principle continues to apply: You simply cannot just give away all of your money, worldly possessions and invest your physical power to benefit others. At some point, you are exhausted and spent, so you need to spend some time to regain what you gave, earn some money before you can give the poor, build a house for yourself before you can offer hospitality to others, eat a meal and take some rest before you work others. Call in favours when you need them from people who have received favours from you.

In regards to lore would all Holy spells require some form of physical fatigue, which should probably express itself by losing hit points next to mana in game mechanics, while Shadow/Void spells would basically drain surrounding sources to replenish the caster or if it's a buff it would drain directly from the one affected by it, like Unholy Frenzy did in W3.

The reason the Void Lords are so dangerous is because they're a dead end and not a piece of the cycle, and only temporarily create in order to later consume more easily.

>>46832582
Murlocs and gnolls. There were zombie gnolls in Ghostlands and Tirisfal, and both tribes seemed to be doing their own shit and not minding the scourge.

>>46835315
The motherfucking Zandalari stand uptight, you humie-loving cockgobbler.

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>>46842649
Well, that all makes enough sense. I think it's possible the Void Lords could serve some function, but they'd probably fuck everything up if they went unchecked with how they're acting.

Anyhow, I thought I'd share this quest text. Looks like all the panic over Shadow Priests all being Twilight Cultists was wrong, since the Twilight outright murdered her and took all of her stuff. Considering that Benedictus had some of it hidden away at his place, he might have been involved in shady activities for longer than we suspected.

>>46845434
They aren't hunchbacked

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I ran across some Alamo reposts on the internet, and I realize almost all of them link to my ancient photobucket account that I hosted Alamo's pics back when hosting pictures was a difficult thing to do on the interwebs.

I'm surprised the damn thing is still around.

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>>46848413
>Alamo

That takes me back.

>>46835002
Are you still running later? I think you might want to do some one shots to get the mechanics sorted out.

>>46848413
>>46849515
Alamo?

>>46849611
The mechanics are kinda simple. The statblock I posted has 2 as the baseline. Having a skill of 3 gives you a +1 to your 3d6 roll. Once I got the,I will run the campaign better. Any suggestions on the story so far?

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>>46850014
He was a poster on the WoW Druid Class forums that posted a guide to playing Druids called "Alamo teechs u 2 play DURID!" Filled with MSPaint edited pictures of animals and written entirely in bad internet speak.

It became a pretty popular meme in the WoW community and Blizz put some references to it in the game as well.as in the WoW tcg.

>>46835281

You dont translate a joke race into anything.

>>46835281
Don't directly translate racial mechanics from WoW. Try basing it more on the lore of the setting.

>>46835281
Fall damage reduction is fall damage reduction, that seems self evident.

>>46850209
Well for the intro, I felt that the green text was unnecessary, and should have been broken up better. I think someone else already mentioned that. Story wise, its fine but the details is what I think you need to provide us with. So we can better understand the world around us (including lore even tho its Warcraft and most people know it already) and make more informed decisions, or else we end up not taking any risks and playing it safe. For example: all the times we could have met strangers while traveling or when they beckon to us.

I personally like the sims city kind of management, and having a pastebin with some statistics list, or of things that would normally concern a person like us to be show. I understand that not everyone enjoys that so rather than getting into the nitty-gritty bits, have simplified and streamlined info, such as population size but not delving into the break down of what types of races and mixed races etc.

Basically I think it needs more details for some situations (upcoming actions of choices), and info both specific and general like when you mentioned there were mines nearby that we can take control of, to make choices in the future. If given enough info and free/multiple options we can start adding to the quest with our own suggestions and write-ins.

I hope that wasn't too confusing. I sometimes have trouble getting the core ideas across sometimes.

>>46850763
If you have the time and patience, and desire. You could make maps and characters with Warcraft campaign editor. I think that you can definitely make some maps and environments with that to give players a better feel for the world you try to bring us to.

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>>46850763
>>46850887

Someone else made a map that may actually help!

>>46840538

Pity there isn't really anything to properly represent Night Elf priestesses in WoW.

>>46850893
That's a lot of meanders

>>46850983
Yeah, that was my only problem with it too.

>>46850763
>>46850887
>>46850893
Thanks for the in depth critique. I am workin g on a map now, based off the mmo one. It would help me solve my problems for the most part, and let you Gus visualize it

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>>46850893
Lol, nice! Maybe to nice. A simpler version without colour would let us draw on it more easily.

>>46851010
Cool. Cool, cool, cool.

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>>46850014

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Alamo

Back in the dark ages of Vanilla wow, Druids were a half-finished garbage class. Blizzard had literally not made up their minds as to what druids would be, so they gave them Innervate and MotW right before Vanilla launched so people would invite them into raids. There were more Shamans than druids of both factions combined, making them by far the least played class in the game followed by warlocks.

Back then, it was literally faster to grind mobs full resto spec, auto-attacking mobs than speccing Feral or Balance. Feral after the revamp was still wonky due to complex gearing requirements. As a result, Druids were a very scarce commodity. So scarce, that just having a Druid at level 60 guaranteed you a spot in a raiding guild.

The druid community was a small, tight-nit group who were apathetic and declining despite the games growing popularity thanks to two non-functional specialization trees, and one functional only due to small patch edits. Alamo made the "how to play durid" thread following one where druids were asking each other why they even played anymore as a attempt to cheer up fellow druids while they waited their turn at a class revamp (1.8).

Alamo's thread was well recieved, but would get deleted by blues because the image links were hosted by a website that often had porn adds. People would repost it in the class forum, but they would only last about a day. A Druid named Anyaceltica (long time no see, Anya) offered her photobucket account to host the pictures because back then there was no Imgur. Since then, it was stickied for the rest of Vanilla, and the BC version was during that expansion's lifetime. Dropping Alamo quotes is one way to tell a oldfag druid from a FOTM reroll druid.

>>46851292
>all that camaraderie is gone
>now replaced by the epic power fantasy of neo blizzard

Cryingwojack.jpg

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so what exactly are shadow hunters? the rogue version of a paladin?

they are the only things that makes trolls half tolerable but i dont even know what they are

>>46851330
how can you have class camaraderie when all the classes are the same?

>>46851292
I do remember "Cat Druid is for fite!" as a quote but not much else.

>>46851330
That has nothing to do with neoblizzard and everything to do with game being more than 10 years old and not attractive to young newcomers.

>>46851357
They basically are troll paladin equivalents.

>>46851359
There was also "attacking a bear should aggro every bear" but I don't think that was a Druid thing.

Also the start of WoW machinima with Zinwrath the Movie and Illegal Danish happened around that time.

Shadow Priests were useless in Vanilla as well iirc.

>>46851402
everything but the core classes speced their core tree (aka prot warrior, holy priest) was useless to the point they could be kicked from 5-mans

>>46851402
>>46851402
>There was also "attacking a bear should aggro every bear" but I don't think that was a Druid thing.
"Skinning a Bear should Aggro Every Bear" after blizzard patched in Mining increasing your aggro radius significantly.

And every hybrid was useless at everything but buffing, dispelling, and healing. Only warriors tanked, only pure DPS classes like Hunter, Rogue, Mage (Ice only for the first two tiers because MUH IMMERSION made all the fire elementals and Black Dragons fireproof,) and Warlock.

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>>46851292
I almost didn't believe you when you said druids were so rare. I could have sworn I remember more druids back then, but going through my old guild screenshots(I have so few left from those days), you're right.
I mean, looking at Chromaggus, we only had two druids here. One off to the left, the other hiding in back. And yet nine priests.
Raid composition was pretty fucked then.

>>46851442
40 man raids in general were fucked.

You also had two classes being faction specific, which really must have made designing encounters difficult for Blizz.

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>>46851357
>how can you have class camaraderie when all the classes are the same?


The Druid community died mid- Arena season 1 of TBC when word got out how OP Lifebloom and pillar-humping was and all the pvp kiddies rerolled Druid for the easy ratings. But even then, Non-healing Druids in PvE were a rarity.

Back in Vanilla on PvP servers, ganking a fellow Druid, especially in Moonglade, got you blacklisted by other Druids, and made you Kill on Sight for everyone with a Druid character.

>>46851420
>everything but the core classes speced their core tree (aka prot warrior, holy priest) was useless to the point they would be kicked from 5-mans, and removed and kicked out of the guild in raids.

Fixed.


Even in Nostralius, finding druids for your raid was hard.

>>46851442
Hit up Warcraftrealms, if they still have the older data, you can see how bad it was per realm. It didn't help that they didn't have a out of combat rez, any usable CC inside, and their big heal had a huge cast time. So no one wanted a Druid healer for 5 mans. No one wanted to play one.

>>46851479
Didn't help that paladins made raiding bullshit easy, while shamans were rather bullshit in pvp

Pvp was fucked in other respects, but shamans always tilted it in the hordes favor

>>46828972
I'd say most races and classes would be allowed. Certainly can't see a reason why any of the WoW races shouldn't be allowed, I might be somewhat hesitant if a player shows up with a Furbolg hunter, but I'd allow it.

>>46851479
Yeah. It really was fucked since Paladins' cooldowns were so useful as a defensive support class while Shaman offense made them good at PVP support.
>>46851490
It's kind of a pity most of the Horde players on my server so such trash players. They outnumbered Alliance 2-1, yet wouldn't fight you unless they had you 5-1 and even then, they'd lose at least one.
One of the worst offenders was a PVP guild called <Shaman R Teh Overpower>, who dominated all the High Warlords by just stomping Arathi Basin pugs.

>>46851504
Me and my friends are coming to your game and we're bringing all murlocs.

>>46851490
I remember trying to play Shaman in BC and really feeling shit, I was never very good at PvP but I never got the hang of frost shock anything and folded to any class with stuns or fears.

But we are digressing a bit.

>>46829893
>>46831309
And if you played it as the RoC Demo instead of the TFT bonus Campaign fully voiceacted complicated common dialogue!

>>46851442
>having to look like mismatched shit even being an end game raider

probably the biggest thing i hated about vanilla

>>46851483
>It didn't help that they didn't have a out of combat rez,
I remember cheesing the Baron Geddon fight by having a couple of paladins standing in the back of the room and casting no heals on any party members, just rezzing them after they get the bomb.

>>46851521
BC isnt vanilla

>>46832956
Vash'jir was so well lit even in the darkest points I found it fun and I find the ocean terrifying.

The reason they didn't to more was because pet classes and to a degree rogues were totally fucked over by 3d movement.

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>>46851523
Aw, I found the mismatched hobo clown look endearing. So that if someone had a full set, it means they REALLY worked hard and put in a ton of hours for it.

>>46851490
Also having to move your ass to the actual battleground entrance to queue up for it. Vanilla had a lot of wonky stuff people have forgotten.

Yet it was still way more forgiving than pretty much every other MMO on the market at the time. I always s laugh when people talk about how hardcore old school WoW was.

Go have somebody PK you and steal your gear, or lose levels due to death in games like Ultima Online or EverQuest and then tell me how hardcore WoW was.

>>46851442
Dang, do those Warlocks have t3 Gear? Pretty good guild to have raided Naxx Classic. Also it's cool that people still ran prior patch content even while progressing (Needing to gear up replacement players sorta forced it I'd imagine, though Blizzard's poor grasp of Itemization probably made some old shit BiS)

On the subject of Palis vs Shamans there was this gem.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7x2U-ro8p8

>>46851523
I like it over everyone and their brother wearing the same recolored tier set.

Also, no one transmogs green or blue sets outside of Vanilla and BC. Wrath and onwards, common and rare sets are too plain and have no color or variety.

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>>46851592
>Dang, do those Warlocks have t3 Gear?
No, that's Felheart. Warlock T1. And of course, everyone is wearing their T2 helm because Onyxia was a silly loot pinata as long as you stayed out of the whelps.
This is what T3 looked like.
And Tier 3 Warlocks walked single-file to hide their numbers.

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>>46851622
Meanwhile T3 Palis were Robots in disguise.

>>46851622
Whups I got it backwards.

>>46851617
alliance GM 2h sword and staff are still probably the best looking sword and staff in the game to this day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvYXoyxLv64

I am the only one who things that the Horde-Alliance relation should be like the one shown on the MoP trailer?

Almost always at each others throats, but when something disturbs it, more than eager to cooperate.

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>>46851606
>mfw i hear someone say pallys most iconic ability is wings and not bubble hearth

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>>46851640
I'll take Gundam pally over the gay Robocop they got for T5.
>>46851647
I was one of the warlocks, so that's how I remember that. We did eventually get into Naxx classic, but only a few bosses in and I never got any worthwhile loot.

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>>46851685
>bubble hearth
I remember those glory days.

>>46851660
That's pretty much what it is most of the time. They team up to fight whatever world shattering event is happening that week, then spend the rest of the time beating on each other for fun.

At least until Garrosh and Sylvanas decided to go full retard.

>>46851706
you can still do it but have to use a minor glyph. you probably dont need anything to use the garrison hearth since its a shorter cast time

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>>46851652
>alliance GM 2h sword
Unf. Yes.
I wish Blizz would update the terrible low rez textures on some of their classic models one of these days.

>>46851685
>>46851706
I love how the fucking T1 set bonus was to make bubble hearth easier and give you more time to decide if you wanted to use it or not. (Which is good given ghearthstone's retarded cooldown.

>>46851719
Wait what? They made Bubble hearth a non default thing?

>>46851732
Sometimes doing that removes key details so I would rather the new version be its own thing.

Oh and I am not sure you can even earn the right to mog the old Grand Marshal stuff anymore.

>>46851732
i always like to buy one with honor whenever i ding 60 on an alt and use it for a while

>>46851747
>Wait what? They made Bubble hearth a non default thing?
Pally bubble lasts 8 seconds now, down from the 12 seconds you needed to get off a successful hearth(1.5 seconds for global cooldown and then 10 seconds untouched to cast the Hearth).

>>46851747
>Wait what? They made Bubble hearth a non default thing?

yeah i think because now you can attack through bubble so it doesnt last long enough now

>>46851747
You can mog the Grand Marshall stuff...if you got the rank during Vanilla

>>46851773
Yeah so it cannnot be earned.

>>46851762
You could always attack through bubble, it's just now Paladins can actually cause damage, so they get a 50% damage nerf and it's too short for them to escape. At least not without a glyph or garrison stone.
>>46851773
I wish they'd release new versions of the classic Grand Marshal/High Warlock sets. I might actually start PVPing again if they did.

>>46851780
if you get a certain rank in rated bgs (dont need the highest i think) you can by a replica from area 52 to mog

i think thats how it works anyway

>>46851773
Transmog the Imperial Plate set with it and be Azeroth's most powerful Footman.

>>46851791
I think you can buy the replica any time but mogging doesn't unlock

Whatever, I got the Unstoppable force, so if they ever let Prot mog a one hander into a two hander I can beat people with my pig on a stick.
>>46851797
There's an updated footman armor model now, looks pretty good.

>>46851797

>tfw managed to convince my friend to play a 5stack gladiator warrior party transmogged into that


GRAB YOUR SWORD AND FIGHT THE HORDE

>>46851827
you can buy the real deal sword any time but cant transmog it. once you get a certain rank you can buy a replica that you can transmog

and also yeah i guess if you are a real GM maybe you can transmog the original one too

>>46850551
>>46851292
I remember that. Warlocks also had something like that, although not nearly as popular, in the form of Kralnor. I still wish Blizz had added "staff of Kralnor" as a warlock quest reward.

>>46851402
>>46851420
>>46851434
Vanilla class balance in general was wonky as hell. If your class could heal, that was all you would ever do in raids. Not only were the other specs sub-par, finding gear was a huge pain in the ass, since your tier gear was designed with the "one true spec" in mind, with mayby some tier bonues that gave some bonus to dps. Feral druids had it even worse, since at least a holy and shadow priest or resto and elemental shaman both use spellcasting gear. Feral druids pretty much had to steal rogue loot.

It was pretty bad for many dps classes as well. Fire mages were useless for the first two tiers because everybody and their grandmother being immune to fire, and warlocks had two talent trees that were completely non-functional in raids (one focused around a pet than back then didn't scale with your stats, and the other on dots in a time where the debuff limit on a boss was like a dozen effects, most of which was taken by mandatory debuffs like sunder and curse of elements).

>>46851848
Uncle Lothar wants You!

I'm surprised we never got to do the Raid on Blackrock Spire as a Caverns of Time mission. Keep the Horde off Lothar while he fights Doomhammer and stuff.

>>46851434
>Ice only for the first two tiers because MUH IMMERSION made all the fire elementals and Black Dragons fireproof
You're talking as if that were a bad thing.
I hope you're not also the guy that whines about LFG queues and flying, because that would've been ironic.

>>46851865
ahh not really, there was a separate "healing" bonus back in vanilla.
So your gear full of healing bonus will not help you at all at DPS.

They removed it in later expansion

>>46827334
I would fuck Aszhara after her transformation into a naga lady.

>>46851848
5stack Gladiator warrior?

5stack mean that wristbreaking talent with the optimal DPS from free Heroic Strikes?

(Also RiP Glad stace: 6.0-6.2.2, you were too pure and heroic for this world)

>>46851884
>I'm surprised we never got to do the Raid on Blackrock Spire as a Caverns of Time mission. Keep the Horde off Lothar while he fights Doomhammer and stuff.
Or probably be the horde people that weakened him for the fight with Doomhammer as a nod to the old canon where he just got ganked by a half-dozen bloodlusted Ogre Magi.

>>46851891
Wait, you're actually no shit defending making entire specs irrelevant because you can't think of even a half-assed explanation for how one set of magic fire can be twisted to damage another?


Shit, even in a Tabletop setting I'd at least let the players work around it and that's assuming I don't just make it default.

>>46851904
Doesn't her canon transformation have tentacles instead of the snake body?

>>46851696
Tier 5 looks great on Draenei since it's based on their aesthetic (glowy purple crystals and all), but doesn't really work on anything else. Had I ever bothered levelling my Draenei paladin, I'd have wanted to get a full set for RP reasons.

There's a few other sets that look good on one race but bad on others. Orc warlocks lookd kind of shit in most gear, but I always though they looked really good in tier 1, because the spikes/horns on the shoulderpads, which for every other race are pretty small, are enormous on the orcs.

>>46851891
It's not that fire elementals and black dragons being fire immune is a bad thing. It's just, why the hell did they make them the only raid bosses available for so long?

>>46851914
No, that's from the noncanon RPG books, but it's definitely better than having her be a mere snakewoman.

>>46851911
No, 5stacks meaning the 5 stacks of Sunder on a target before the DPS can engage.
Of course he meant the first one.
I'm so glad that's gone. Though it did help weed out the retards from raids pretty quick.

>>46851914
>>46851948
I'd probably still hit it.

>>46851952
I thought it was three sunders before you can basically start doing damage to it.

>>46851911
>Wait, you're actually no shit defending making entire specs irrelevant because you can't think of even a half-assed explanation for how one set of magic fire can be twisted to damage another?
Yes. Fire elementals being immune to fire is perfectly justifiable, and there are basically two reason why you should whine about it:
1. You are a faggot that believes that his character should have no meaningful limitations
2. You want to raid with a guild full of faggots that treat you not as a player and a person but as a fireball throwing machine and will kick you out if you don't adopt fad-of-the-day optimal spec for every encounter.

Now, it's perfectly justifiable why a guild should not take a fire mage into molten core, especially if their objective is a competitive clearing of the raid before other guilds.
From roleplaying perspective however, vanilla fire mages could still use frost magic and unless your raid group is made entirely of mages, there's little reason why drop in dps of few participants should be a dealbreaker.

>>46831032
>>tfw this general started because we were discussing elf feet.

While footfaggotry is creepy and fucked, I do kinda miss when night elves mostly went barefoot as a sign of their savage ways. Nowadays they just look like any other fantasy elves except purple

>>46851970
Three Sunders then you can do SLOW DPS. And by slow, I mean FUCKING slow.
Which meant wands and auto-attacks and occasionally sneaking my dots on early.
5 stacks meant you could open up and go all out, but not TOO all out, or you'll generate too much threat.
I kinda miss when threat was a real issue and DPS had to dance around doing enough damage to drop the boss, but not too much they go overkill and pull aggro and wipe half the raid.

>>46851981
savages don't usually go barefoot either though, but protect their feet somehow. Going barefoot is just silly.

>>46851978

>2. You want to raid with a guild full of faggots that treat you not as a player and a person but as a fireball throwing machine and will kick you out if you don't adopt fad-of-the-day optimal spec for every encounter.

>Bawww imma unique flower who deserves to raid and get everything no matter how fucked up my talents and playstyle are!!

This shit gave us LFR.

>>46831032
so which races has the best foot game? i think it has to be blood elves. super manicured and tiny feet

>>46851998
no its pretty common not to wear shoes. hell i basically grew up only wearing shoes to school and im just from the south

>>46852000

So you are no shit defending concept where class specialization is a completely meaningless concept because you're supposed to swap it around like clothing?
Do you know what "R" in "RPG" stands for? Hint: It's neither Rocket, Roll nor Rule.

>>46851978
When you're raiding you are expected to be at the top of your game. Using a spec that isn't just subpar, but actually ineffective against your enemies is a perfectly valid excuse for booting someone or refusing to bring them along.

It's like a Tank showing up in cloth armor. You're intentionally screwing over the rest of the group for no reason. There's no reason to expect the other people present to carry your noob ass.

>>46852029
>bring the player not the class :^)

>>46851978
Fire mage justification: YOu're an arcanist who mastered the use of the arcane to contain and direct fire, it's not the flame that does the damage it's moreso you taking a part of the elementals themselves and MAKING IT YOUR BITCH.

Shaman Flameshock? You're shooting Rag's enslaved elementals with spiritual FREEDOM and bald eagles and all that jazz.

Warlock fire-based spells? It's fucking Felfire I don't have to explain shit.

>>46851992
>Which meant wands and auto-attacks and occasionally sneaking my dots on early.
>Wands
Man, whatever happened to Wanding?

>>46852000
>Bawww imma unique flower who deserves to raid and get everything no matter how fucked up my talents and playstyle are!!
That's literally what you are saying when you suggest that all specs should be equally viable in every raid.

Also, there's a difference in "being kicked out of guild" and "not having particular character taken to particular raids"

>>46852029
Class spec IS something you're supposed to change, it's why dual spec became a thing.

It's a cooperative game, carry your weight or don't get invites.

>>46852029

You dont roleplay in raids. Take that shit to a tavern.

>>46851998

In WoW they do. We have trolls, worgen, tauren and draenei who never wear shoes (though the latter two have hooves so) and orcs, nelves and goblins who commonly go around shoe-less. Interestingly, Worgen and gobbos are quite civilized species in contrast with the rest.

Also some classes do it a lot, for whatever reason. The weird one is Death Knight

>>46852056
>Man, whatever happened to Wanding?

do people even run out of mana anymore?

>>46852057
>Also, there's a difference in "being kicked out of guild" and "not having particular character taken to particular raids"
In vanilla? They may as well be synonymous. And respecs were fucking expensive.

>>46852060
>Class spec IS something you're supposed to change, it's why dual spec became a thing.
Looooooooooong after they removed retarded NPC resists and actually balanced the classes.

Either way this is all a bit off-topic.

>>46852056
>Man, whatever happened to Wanding?
Everyone can only have one weapon now, so wands have taken the place of the one-handed sword/mace/dagger that casters used to use with an offhand.
At least it means Hunters won't try to roll against Rogues for daggers anymore.
Had one Hunter quit the guild because we gave the Core Hound's Tooth to a Rogue who needed it over her.

>>46852091
>used to use
Erm, I should say they still do.
Occasionally, but staffs seem to be taking over as the primary good weapon for casters to use.

>>46852085
Well I think the point is, RP or not nobody is going to bring a Fire Mage to MC except as a joke.

>>46852042
>Using a spec that isn't just subpar, but actually ineffective against your enemies is a perfectly valid excuse for booting someone or refusing to bring them along
Yes, kicking them out of raid if they lied about their spec, or not bringing them along if they did not.
Why should I feel entitled to be able to damage fire elementals with fire?

>>46852104
>>46852091
Usually MH+OH tends towards BiS these days. And Legion will have all classes set to either staff or MH+OH for the whole expansion.
>>46852081
Very rarely, and basically only Warlocks who can lifetap it all back.

Hunters switched to Focus (Basically energy) a long time ago and Legion is swapping DPS Shaman over to "Maelstrom" (Rage with the serial numbers filed off) And SPriests over to "Insanity" which is sorta-kinda ragelike but not exactly.

>>46852118
>Why should I feel entitled to be able to damage fire elementals with fire?
Because if the game is going to spend a huge chunk of its existence with two LAVA LEVELS as the only end-game content the designers need to either shoot pedantic "immersion" in the face(And >>46852056
includes a list of very good excuses) or shoot themselves in the dick for being absolute trash at their job.

>>46852060
>Class spec IS something you're supposed to change, it's why dual spec became a thing.
That was not available in Vanilla, you had to pay up a lot of gold for that.

>It's a cooperative game, carry your weight or don't get invites
That is absolutely true. However you should not treat membership in a guild the same way you would treat participation in a single raid, unless you want and expect the game designers to create encounter that will be equally beatable with any combination of specs and classes rather than create varied raidbosses where some classes and specs will shine more than others.

Let's say you have a raid with two encounters, in one you have a boss resistant to fire, and another to frost and vulnerability to the other one. Guild can approach this in several ways - force a mage to respec between bosses and kick them if they fail to comply, have two mages for each encounter and cycle them out, or just take a hit compared to the optimal setup and let the weakness and vulnerability cancel each other out.

>>46852168
>Usually MH+OH tends towards BiS these days
Is it now? I haven't payed attention to BiS babbling in a while.
>And Legion will have all classes set to either staff or MH+OH for the whole expansion.
This whole thing bugs me and I can't put into words why. I just don't like the idea of everyone in each class having the same weapon.
Yes, I know they all have a whole bunch of variants, but they're still the same weapon.
>Very rarely, and basically only Warlocks who can lifetap it all back.
Except Destro Warlocks, who have no Life Tap anymore.

>>46852168
You're just playing with shit people desu and deserve every bit of misery you got from poor game design.

>>46852168
We're not saying Blizz didn't screw the pooch by having so much fire immune stuff in Vanilla. They totally did.

But that's the way the game was, and therefore Fire Mages had no place there.

>>46852213
>Fire Mages had no place there.
No place in raids, they dominated in PVP.

>>46852218
That goes without saying

>>46852213
>>46852218

And then they shat on AQ40 and naxx with rolling ignites.

>>46852218
I W I N B U T T O N

also being a glass cannon doesnt mean you can dominate. i dont remember any GM mages at all

>>46852193
>equally beatable with any combination of specs and classes rather than create varied raidbosses where some classes and specs will shine more than others.
Why not? Know your rotation, pay your flask tax, buy your enchants and crafted gear, and master the mechanics and only 1-3% that only matter to world-first racers should demand you be the "Right Spec" The actual focus on boss and trash mechanics plus varied rotations in later expansions was a godsend even if a few things like aggro and mana management suffered a bit too much.

>>46852194
>>Very rarely, and basically only Warlocks who can lifetap it all back.
>Except Destro Warlocks, who have no Life Tap anymore.
I could have sworn I saw neo desto Lifetap.

>>46852236
Not much shat on Naxx from what I hear.

>>46852261
>Why not? Know your rotation, pay your flask tax, buy your enchants and crafted gear, and master the mechanics and only 1-3% that only matter to world-first racers should demand you be the "Right Spec" The actual focus on boss and trash mechanics plus varied rotations in later expansions was a godsend even if a few things like aggro and mana management suffered a bit too much.
That's a perfectly valid strategy to encounter design, but it limits potential to make those encounters more varied and put to test players of individual classes.

If taken to extreme, there would be only 3 classes - tank, healer and dps.

>>46852327
There are certain things that do push you to get at least one of each different roll. Like BL/Hero/TW being superior to the item version.

Either way I think encounter design and not senselessly fucking specs for the sake of "Immersion" is fine and has been since at least Wrath, that's not the problem plaguing WoW.

Also, yeah, we've drifted pretty dangerously off topic for a /tg/ thread though it's been more productive than usual despite that.

>>46852218
Vanilla was like that a lot. There was a pretty clead divide between pve and pvp talent trees for many classes.

>>46852261
>Know your rotation, pay your flask tax, buy your enchants and crafted gear, and master the mechanics and only 1-3% that only matter to world-first racers should demand you be the "Right Spec"
That's not how it owrked back in vanilla, though. Back then there was a massive divide between the "Right Spec" (ie. it actually worked) and "Bad Spec" (completely useless). A lot of classes had entire talent trees completely useless for raiding (I played a warlock, and if people think fire mages had it bad, just try playing a non-destrolock in the time of debuff limits and non-scaling minions).

Makign every spec viable (which I think is good; I always preferred the playstyle of affliction over destro, and didn't really like being pigeonholed into the "fire-mage knockoff" spec). Only started to happen in TBC, and only really became a thin in Wrath.

In TBC warlocks actually had a pretty interesting "spec progression" as you progressed up the raid tiers.
When you start raiding, affliction was the recommended spec because it was the least gear-dependent. But on the other hand it also scaled poorly, so once everybody got decent raiding gear your dps would take a nosedive compared to other classes.
At that point you could go either destruction or demonology, with demonology having higher dps due to it getting a very big benefit from extra spell damage gear (which also increased your minon's damage) but destruction still being pretty good and not requiring you to micromanage the minion.
However, once you got to really good gear (Black Temple tier), destro started to pull ahead because it had huge buffs for crit damage, and once you start reliably critting on every fifth or fourth spell, the dps becomes really high, to the point where in Sunwell it rendered every other spec completely obsolete.

>>46852408
>However, once you got to really good gear (Black Temple tier), destro started to pull ahead
Hell, even before that it was king of the heap for its synergy with shadow priests.
The joke was back then, "Spell rotation? lol, spam Shadow Bolt" because it wasn't even worth the global cooldown to maintain Corruption.

When Sylvanas is inevitably deposed we'll wind up with Lor'themar as Warchief. Calling it now.

>>46852618
Nah, it's gonna be Varimathras

>>46852636
>not Gul'dan

I'm thinking of doing some rules Warcraft races for 5th edition DnD (I know 4th edition is probably better, but I've never played it or have the books). Probably up to TBC, mostly because I want to include the draenei (inclusion of blood elves to the Horde was always a kind of a dumb move to me, so I'm more iffy about them, but if I do draenei I kind of have to add them as well). There's a few thing I'd need to work out, though:

>Should I include humans at all? You already have the variant human rules that let you built very customizeable human characters, so there's less need to include humans the specifically represent Warcraft humans, especially when humans don't have a subrace system in place.
>I'm thinking of doing the variants of existing PC races (dwarves, gnomes, elves of different kinds) as subraces, keeping the same basic abilities and stat bonuses as the PHB races (like all elves having +2 dex, a perception bonus, darkvision, and immunity to sleep spells), but getting +1 to one stat and a few special abilities on top of that (for example wood elves get +1 wis, movement speed bonus, proficiency with certain weapons and bonuses to hiding in forests and such).
>Was thinking of doing some subraces for the fully homebrewed races as well, like trolls getting both forest and jungle troll variants, although I'm not really sure what different abilities a forest troll should get compared to a jungle troll, aside from getting a str bonus.
>Anybody got good suggestions for racial stat bonuses? the format most races follow is +2 to one stat and +1 to other, with the +1 stat changing with subraces (like all elves having +2 dex, but high elves getting +1 int, wood elves +1 wis, and drow +1 cha).

>>46852008
Well trolls have two large toes with a nice space in between.
Nahmsayin?

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>>46851941
I know this is a late reply, but I think T4 did a better job at fitting Draenei aesthetics. Apparently Blizzard agrees since a bunch of Draenei NPCs in WoD Auchindoun are wearing it.
And they made a variant of the Tier 17 armor look like a souped up version of it.

>>46852408
Hunters had the same thing in BC. You started with BM then mid Kharazan switched to MM and finally ended at Survival the moment you had the needed minimal dex score.

>>46852618
>Blood elf in charge of the Horde
Hahahahaha

No.

Here's a list of people more likely than Lor'themar, or any belf pansy for that matter, to end up being the warchief:

Budd
Cromush
Gamon
Garona
Grommash Hellscream
Hamuul Runetotem
Mankrik
Thrall
Saurfang
Zen'kiki
a huojin pandaren

>>46853801
>Mankrik
Even his dead wife has a better chance of being Warchief than Lorth.

>>46853905
Indeed. It turned out she was not dead but just injured and had an amnesia and when she returned from the wilderness as 12 ft tall swole orc femmehoth the orcs were so impressed that they promoted her on the spot.

>>46853801
It's fitting since most Horde players are blood elves.

>>46852075
Wasn't that just the starting outfit which was basically plate pajamas, or did they having tier sets like that too?

>>46854969

fake

>>46851547
>Play mu online
>Get PK
>???
>Drop your +4 leggings of extreme grind

>>46851357
>>46851383
Basically. Shadow hunters are a cross between a rogue/hunter and a shadow priest (voodoo), but they're the jungle troll "prestige class."

>>46854969
someone oughta make an edit of illidan looking like sephiroth.
Or the other way around.

>>46833147
Cata didn't bring many good things.
New Org was definitely not a good thing, much as I love the goblin area.

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>>46851617
Hey, I like this kit.

>>46852768
Oh, someone actually discussing stats.
>what different abilities a forest troll should get compared to a jungle troll, aside from getting a str bonus.
Well, that's a tricky matter. I think the Jungle Trolls have a higher frequency of Spellcasters as their leaders and they specialize in more guerilla tactics than the other tribes. Using smaller groups to harass and bleed a superior foe dry was the lesson they learned from fighting the Aqir and their Anubisaths.

I'm not sure what stats would reflect that, but that's what it is. Less direct physical strength, more spellcasters and harassing tactics. They're still stronger than humans, given how huge they are.

>>46856183
Yeah, I'd say they're the perfect example of what makes Jungle Trolls what they are, with more magic and shadowy tactics than what other tribes tend to go with.

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>>46851904
>>46851914
Sumfin like that. Here's what Azshara looks like, even though we've yet to actually see her in-game.

>>46835045
On the surface, this seems like an interesting movement forward for the lore.

But then you realize that the simplest way to end the Legion invasion threat would be to send the Scourge in first, so that the world doesn't risk losing its greatest heroes, and it becomes idiotic.

Throw the Scourge at the Legion and kill two birds with one stone.

>>46857497
Well, the scourge is itching to murder everything and apparently Bolvar doesn't have enough control to just make all them kill themselves/each other.

Maybe he's not entirely confident he could reign the scourge back in if he ever sent it out.

>>46857497
>>46857897
Plus, the general populace doesn't know that the Scourge are (ostensibly) on our side now. Remember, as far as public understanding goes, the Lich King (and Bolvar) are dead.

>>46858069
Yeah but the people who matter know the truth

>>46858171
Important people (the PCs) aren't the same as the general public. Can you imagine the mass panic if the Scourge shambled across Azeroth again?

>>46857309
Longer limbs doesn't necessarily mean that they're stronger, and that's all trolls have on humans in terms of size.

>>46857897
>>46858069
>>46858193
Yeah, but aren't you just shipping them off to the continent the legion are starting their invasion from? To my knowledge, the Scourge can't pass through oceans, otherwise they'd be wandering down from Northrend this whole time.

>>46858567
Trolls are described as being stronger.

>>46858585
>ywn see fleet of non-evil algined necropolises float across the ocean to face off with the fel battleships

>>46858567

>this guy trying to debate lore when he hasn't even read any novels

Vol'jin: Shadows of the Horde makes it abundantly clear that not only are humans slower and clumsier than trolls, but they're weaker in terms of both strength and constitution. They cannot lift as much as trolls, cannot hit as hard as trolls, and cannot take hits as hard as trolls. Humans are slower, weaker, and more fragile than jungle trolls. That much is fact, supported by the canon.

>>46858612
>>46859158
Oh ok, sorry, was just pointing out that trolls being stronger than humans isn't self-evident, regardless of whether it's true or not

>>46859290
Combine that with jungle trolls - including Darkspears - being sneaky gits who excel at guerilla tactics, and you've got something terrifying to deal with.

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>>46859158

>He looked out at the world through Tyrathan Khort's eyes and found it too bright and too green. He raised a hand to shield his eyes. Surprise raced through him. The arms were too short, the body broader and yet weaker. He could only take tiny steps.
- Vol'jin: Shadows of the Horde, page 59 (hardcover)

>Tyrathan sped off and Vol'jin cataloged every sensation. As they descended a rocky hill trail, the troll noticed the leaps that the man refused. He sought a sense of doubt in these choices but instead found confidence. Tyrathan knew himself well, and to make those leaps, which would not have concerned a troll, would snap a leg or twist an ankle.
>The sheer fragility of being human surprised Vol'jin. He'd always rejoiced in it. It made breaking them so very easy, but now it made him wonder about them.
- Vol'jin: Shadows of the Horde, page 60 (hardcover)

>>46859441
Interesting, that carries the suggestion of humans having superior color vision over trolls

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>>46859158
>this guy trying to debate lore when he hasn't even read any novels

There's people who try to without playing both factions.

Here's Maiev without her armor.

>>46859486
Makes sense. I wonder if that carries over to Elves.

Not seeing certain colors does have its advantages, it nullifies camouflage in several cases like cats hunting birds. Not seeing green means the bird stands out in foliage.

>>46859554
But as a story point, it's interesting. There's a fair bit you could do with that.

I wonder how good the color vision of other races is?

>>46859605

In Lord of the Clans, it's mentioned that orcs have night vision and can see much better than humans can. I know that's not specifically color vision, but it's something.

>>46859713
Good night vision actually implies worse color vision though

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>>46834843
Initially. The human race was born from the rebels that left Northrend and settled in what would become Tyr's Hand.

The Vrykul are a warrior people though, and regard skill at arms and battle prowess highly. I think more than a few would be impressed that the descendants of those they deemed unfit to live returned thousands of years alter, defeated the greatest Vrykul champions, killed King Ymiron in open combat, and crushed every Vrykul force they met under heel. Not even selling themselves to the "death god" aided them, as in the end, it only made these humans, their long-lost descendants, fight even /harder/ to defeat them and their most hated foe.

I can totally see a number of Vrykul, perhaps enough to make a "small" settlement, traveling south to meet with their distant children out of curiosity and even respect. Perhaps even joining with them.

>>46859853

>humans killed ymiron

wew

besides, the vrykul got shat on not just by humans, but by elves, dwarves, orcs, tauren, gnomes, trolls, and so on. everyone in the horde and the alliance had an opportunity to take steaming dumps on the vrykul.

i think you're overplaying how much "respect" they might have for the humans, when they could just as easily think that their descendants needed the help of trolls, tauren, elves, dwarves, etc. just to take them out

let's be real, humans didn't do everything in northrend. they did a lot, sure. but not enough by themselves to justify this humanwank that you think the vrykul might have

>>46859782
Well, that sounds like an idea that can be used.

That reminds me of how ancient Kaldorei fashion was described as extremely gaudy and garish, to the point where other races thought they might be colorblind or something. If the nocturnal Night Elves couldn't see color as well as other races, it would make sense that their fashion would use more extreme colors to compensate.

>>46859951
Remember that the Wrathgate was a joint Alliance-Horde offensive.

>>46838611
>>46838852

I want her hat

>>46853167
IMO, version 1: rank and file vindicator.
Version 2: Badass Exarch.

>>46859441
This interests me.

>>46859961
It was Highborne in particular- as evidenced by modern night elves, garishness isn't inherent in their fashion choices.
It's likely a result of Queen Azshara wanting the most eye-catching, most flamboyant garbs possible, and Highborne society following suit as toadies tend to do.

So, which race do you think would give the best head to a woman?

My money is on Trolls.

>>46860867
Trolls have tusks.

>>46861014
So, the lady has place to rest her legs

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Finished doing rules for Troll race in 5th edition.

>>46860302
>hat
It's a CHAPEAU.

>>46860867
Draenei with those face tentacles, duh.

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>>46861172
>Troll physiology varies between subraces, with jungle trolls being lean and wiry, and forest trolls more more muscular.
>more more muscular

>>46861192
Draenei face tentacles are vestigial. They're not prehensile.

>>46861227
Oops. That tend to happen when I take a break from typing and forgot exactly where I was.

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>>46861172
Needs a racial bonus to climbing, and I'm not so sure about using the ingame racial abilities from WoW.
>>46861192
If you're going to to go with that, then do it right.

>>46861306
There's several others.
>depth of honor

>>46861317

Climbing and jumping. Trolls can legitimately hop from tree branch to tree branch while pursuing prey/enemies.

>>46861317
>>46861373
Could probably replace the jungle troll bonus with that. I had a hard time thinking up some subrace bonuses, since I already used all the iconic troll traits (fast healing, good with axes and throwing weapons, berzerking to hit faster).

>>46861320
That's just English not being my first language.

>>46861172
>talks about trolls regenerating limbs
>puts Zul fucking Jin next to it.

Seriously?
Trolls regenerate faster than most but the limits are obvious.

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>>46860365
>It's likely a result of Queen Azshara wanting the most eye-catching, most flamboyant garbs possible, and Highborne society following suit as toadies tend to do.
This. The Highborne embodied the word "gaudy," and none moreso than Queen Azshara herself. Her hedonism was second to none.

>>46861460
Zul'jin was a special case. The loa had forsaken him and cursed him with a literal retardation of his regeneration. Vol'jin, meanwhile, is in fact able to regenerate entire limbs and has been known to do so.

>>46861460
I was under the assumption that Zul'jin didn't regenerate his arm either because the stump got burned, cauterizing the wounds, or the loa were pissed off at him. There's some other troll NPCs that mention regenerating limbs (for example Darkmoon Faire had one troll NPC who said something along the lines that he's sworn to cut off his hand and eat no meat until it regenerates if a customer complains about the service).

>>46861373
While true, I kind of see that as an extension of their more generally dexterous nature combined with their exceptional climbing ability.

We know that a Troll without climbing equipment is more than twice as good at climbing than an Orc who has had rope set up for him and everything. Scaling up and down a cliff or cave wall is something they do without much effort.
>>46861435
Well, the climbing seems to be more of a general Troll attribute.

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>>46861460
Trolls are known to regenerate limbs, but I think it takes awhile and the normal Troll regeneration weaknesses apply.

It's why the general anti-Troll strategy is to kill them with fire.

>>46861499
> The loa had forsaken him and cursed him with a literal retardation of his regeneration

Nope, he was a practiced witch doctor and never recanted or abandoned the spirits, he was even able to channel living loa into his followers.

>I was under the assumption that Zul'jin didn't regenerate his arm either because the stump got burned, cauterizing the wounds

Also not the case because he cut off his arm himself with a spear to escape capture.

>>46861637
Zul'jin wasn't a witch doctor, and it was Hexlord Malacrass who set up the loa channeling thing.

>>46861607
Fire is just more effective because it cauterizes wounds.

The strength and speed of regeneration is largely negligible in a moment to moment situation but a severely injured troll could make a much speedier recovery than most (over the period of days opposed to months).

>>46861460
>>46861499
>>46861527
>>46861607
>>46861768
I think they may also need specific magic to kickstart full limb regeneration and Zul'jin may have foregone it.

>>46861768
Yes, but it means a maimed or wounded Troll is going to show up again much sooner than you might like. Merely injuring a Troll isn't going to do any significant damage to their fighting ability unless you can make it stick.

>>46861846
I've not heard anything like that, but I know that limb regeneration is meant to take an exceptionally long period of time.

>>46853905
>>46853939
Or the Scourge allied Quilboar had turned her corpse over and she became a Deathknight.

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Ok, I gave them a climb speed (without climb speed, climbing halves your movement, so 30 ft climb speed would correspond to being twice as fast as climbing as an orc or a human). Also changed jungle troll racial trait to let them move through difficult terrain in jungles and forest without being slowed down. Plus fixed some typos.

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will he ever be back?

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>>46862907
No, and you should feel bad for wanting that ham-fisted Cobra Commander.back.

>>46862907

no and good riddance

>arthas dindu nuffin

>>46862907
It's the least they could do after deus-ex-machina-ing him out.

Seriously, blizzard can't write their ways out of a paper bag anymore.

>>46863217
>Implying Blizzard could ever write
>Implying the history of warcraft isn't full of retcons

>>46863217
>The ashrbringer which has been hyped since Vanilla countering Frostmourne after the raid exhausted Arthas.

>Deus ex Machina.

>>46862008
Dark Trolls also come in dark purple as seen in WC3 where they're a darker purple than Nightelves.

>>46863458
>I was only pretending to be retarded: the storyline
>magic assbringer pops up and wins.

>>46859951
The fact that a small group of murderhobos defeated the greatest Vrykul should make them rethink about other races.

I mean the Undefeated Heros of Vrykul all went down like a bitch to 5 Crazed, Loot hunger maniacs, that counts for sometihng.

>>46862935
Because a Sha-infused Garrosh would be bad for the world? I mean, the real idiot ball moment was letting the Horde survive afterwards.

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>>46865251
Real mistake was not letting the Horde Rebels endure most of the casualties, then swooping in and taking everything lost in the conflict back with a proverbial gun to their heads.

Historically, rival nations have a tendency to gobble up surrounding territory during a civil war because they can and will get away with it.