Warmachine & Hordes General

Filling the table with terrain only makes the game worse

>>43582683

different != worse

it makes higher points harder though

>>43582683
Pretty much. If you want terrain density play infinity.

>>43582708
Here's the thing, a single well-placed terrain piece can have a MASSIVE impact on the game-state, you only need 5-6 of them to have a dynamic battlefield.

If that isn't enough terrain it means one of two things: One or both players are playing armies that don't care about terrain (and thus would probably continue not caring if 100% of the table was covered in it), or the person placing the terrain doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.

There's a reason that Pathfinder is probably one of the top five most powerful keyword abilities in the game, despite people constantly bitching about muh lack of terrain.

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Warmahordes has turned into a 2d fighting game and all the warjacks, warbeasts, colossals, and gargantuans and are the fighters.

Who do you main and why?
Who is your favorite matchup?
Who is your least favorite matchup?

>>43582882
Karchev because i main grapplers.
Swamp horror because fuck your vulnerable normals Dhalsim.
Stryker. Probably a fucking shoto clone/ky/jin.

>>43582882

Big B

the first colossal

>>43582882

Carnivean. they damage themselves every time they attack. sprays are hard to dodge in fighters, good melee abilities.

favorite: probably a bronzeback or a warpwolf
least favorite: Ruin

>>43582882
As a 2d fighter I imangine that colossals would probably be super gimmicky and not good for anything other than a laugh. Kinda like Big Zam from Gundam Battle Assault.

I imagine my favorite would either be one of the Satyrs or one of the Warpwolfs since I like grapplers and characters with limited-time transforms or stances (think A.B.A. from Guilty Gear)

Playing against a Ravagore could be pretty cool. I always loved playing against an old friend of mine that used the trap based and zone control fighters.

I always hated those assholes with loads of i-frames on every goddamn attack (fuck you Shao Khan) and the bosses that filled the screen with bullshit (FUCK YOU INU).

Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDkmwiFWGT4

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>>43582882
The zoning game be real.

>>43582882
Who is Dan of warmafighter 4 ultra arcade revelator remastered remix exe:early edition?

Don't say swamp gobbers because that's servbot.

>>43583372
My favorite match would be Bronzbackfags and Molik Karn players thinking their meta rushdown shit can even touch me.

Would probably be fucked against most Protectorate heavies though. And a competent Moros or Banshee will utterly ruin my shit.

>>43583446
The Talon.

>>43582683
Playing with a bare board makes the game worse.

>>43583446
Probably Rhyas.
>No Health, Chips easily
>Single wrong move ends game as a result
>Greatest Damage attack is random
>Far outclassed by a character that looks just like her
>but if you don't take her seriously she wrecks everything

>>43582820
I'd say play with as much terrain as you want, just be smart about it.

The factions with mass pathfinder know that they can take advantage of it...so they don't place all that much terrain for fear of being throat punched.

The real reason people hate terrain is because it messes with the deck building aspect of the game by creating a question outside of list building that prevents them from executing their normal playstyle.

I.E. You built a list to do Y, but you can't do that now because the terrain forced you to split down the middle. You are now disadvantaged for the next two hours of your life.

This gets people massively butthurt.

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>>43582528
Did No Quarter 62 never get added to the OP or has nobody uploaded it?

>>43584097
>that many open flames
>in a swamp environment

They must lose a lot of blindwalkers to explosions.

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>>43582882
>Get over here!

Stumbled across this post in a rare venture to the PP forums

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?240948-Plastic-Steelheads&p=3329683&viewfull=1#post3329683

and I am very VERY interested in this supposed merc/minion combined faction. Between the two they have basically all of my favorite (nonjack) models. Anyone want to discuss this? I have to admit I'm not familiar enough with the fluff to speculate what might be in this faction besides steelheads and maybe some trolls?

>>43583943
Well duh, play some scenario. Put a zone in at least

>>43584469
oh also, plastic steelheads! yay!

>>43584469
It says Ternon Crag, and that's Magnus' city. So Magnus has found a way to recruit some gators and pigs into his army, perhaps even subjugating them completely if you're allowed to use their warcasters.

>>43584598
>warcasters

*warlocks

>>43584469
I really hope that doesn't happen. Honestly if they just fleshed out Pigs and Gators into close to full blown factions I think people would be way more happy.

That being said I am intrigued by the talk of the new hordes faction, the Zu.

People are speculating it's going to be jungle themed and it's going to be the totem hunters people. Not sure what their beasts would be though.

>>43584493
Yay? Prepare for abominable mold lines and perma-bent spears.

>>43585116
>That being said I am intrigued by the talk of the new hordes faction, the Zu.

You know everything is just speculation at this point right?

>>43582882
Thunderhead, because maybe he'll be good in that game.

>>43584164
That's why they take damage when they arc.

>>43582528

Next time use the proper pastie

>textuploader <DOT> com / 5rkfo

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>>43582882

Like there was a choice?

>>43582882
Gotta be Molik Karn
>Dat reach
>Dat Fatewalkin
>Implying you can dodge the ultimate combo

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>>43582882
As if anybody can match Judge Judi's ranged zoning game. 2 AoEs per Rocket Pod plus the short range flamethrowers, and STILL a decent slow melee game.

>>43582882
desert hydra. ultimate rushdown with short ranged projectile to get in and a long-ranged projectile for cowards

>>43587066
But he's good now

>>43590389
Imagine the prime axion.

"I'm a grappler with a projectile that lets me pull you in to grab and a fast projectile to keep rush down characters honest. And servitors for zoning."

>>43591968
He's not 12 points of good. More like 9.

>>43582882
Vanguard ofc

I am going to WMW for the first time. Any tips from people that have been there?

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>>43592443
>ranged sustained attack that never needs to actually roll to hit
>worth 9 points

>>43592657
Don't take it too seriously.

>>43592929
Well yes that's a jolly good best case. Any half-way decent player will circumvent it.

Also, THead is only good with 3+ Focus so his actual cost would be 12 points including Jakes.

>>43582882
Deathjack

>>43593103
Pulse is auto hitting. That alone is good.

>>43593164
>Pulse is auto hitting. That alone is good.
Yes. But that's the only good thing about him. I mean, just compare him to Dynamo. THAT is a 10 point Jack.

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>>43584170
>forgetting about the original get over here

>>43593211
HONK

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>>43584469
>Believing anything from the forums
>Even bothering to visit the Merc board

>>43593839
You are the worst person

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>>43593211
>not posting the original get over here
baka senpai

>>43593946
At least I'm not going through the endless pit of shit that is the PP boards

System: Warmachine
Faction: Highborn Covenant
Casters: 1/1
Points: 50/50
Ashlynn d'Elyse (*6pts)
* Gallant (9pts)
* Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker (2pts)
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
* Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer (2pts)
* * Vanguard (5pts)
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (Cylena and 9 Grunts) (10pts)
Steelhead Halberdiers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
Steelhead Heavy Cavalry (Leader and 4 Grunts) (10pts)
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
Harlan Versh (2pts)
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord (2pts)

Too much infantry?

>>43594660
You are still the worst person.

>>43594736
Not really

>>43594736
Yup. That's an Ashlynn list. I'd go for Boomhowlers and Hammerdorfs instead of Steelheads, but that's all I have to say on the matter.

>>43595348

Thanks. I was just worried because i've had quite a bit of trouble against cygnar at 35 with their chain lightning and stuff.

>>43595540
Well that is bound to happen. Just drop your other list (read: Colossal list) into them and watch them cry.

>>43593164
Not 12 points good. Not even close. It murders infantry, which Cygnar has zero problems doing. It CAN be used as an assassination vector, but not a very good one, because he can't pulse/shoot if he charges or tramples nor if he's engaged in melee, so his threat range is extremely limited.

He might be worth 12 if he was a warbeast in Circle. Maybe.

>>43595707

you know every one of those character jacks released in that book focus on what the faction already has an easy time doing?

>>43596319
Which is entirely beside the point, it doesn't make Thunderhead anywhere close to worth his point cost.

Notice that Avatar, Behemoth, and Deathjack are all varying shades of good, while he's shit.

>>43596319

Really not the case for Avatar or Deathjack. Really no other warjack in Protectorate gets even close to the level of offensive output, high personal defensive stats, and even denial/control rules all while remaining completely autonomous from the warcaster. There's really nothing like Deathjack in the game.

>>43593164

You would not believe how easy people get caught into this trap that the pulse is some kind of infantry murdering machine. If you just look at the rule, it is, but when you consider that you're paying 12 points for this model it's extremely hard for him to make his points back by murdering infantry. It's also stupid easy for your opponent to just feed him worthless tarpits or jam him up with Reach models. I find that the closer you have to be to kill swarms of infantry, the more likely you are to just trade really poorly. It's like "aw yea I killed 7 mechanithralls, oh wait I killed 3 points of models and now I'm getting charged by Bane Knights oops". Thunderhead is just flat out overcosted for what he does.

>>43597563
everything in the game is overcosted if you play like a retard. That mech thrall exchange is worth it if you can kill the remaining one so necro surgeons have nothing to do

>>43597706

And everything is undercosted if you get hot dice/play exceptionally yada yada. The thing that makes THead objectively overcosted is that it's almost always too difficult for him to earn 12 points back, especially in a faction that already excels at killing shit tons of infantry without an expensive character heavy.

>>43597937
My shifting stones never make their points back; PP needs to lower them to 1/2

>>43598133
They do by making other things better, like sending a beast to assassinate.

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>>43582882
Do you fear grapplers? You will.

>>43594736
Maybe try getting gastonne in there. Gastonne not needing to boost to hit when ashlynn has feated on him makes him happy.

sure is waac in here. the thunderhead is good

>>43598935
I agree with the guy that says he is overcosted. He has ROF3 gun with sustained attack which means that against high DEF target none of the shoots are going o be boosted damage (so not really helpful against Circle beasts for example) and he has a bubble that clears low ARM infantry which Cygnar already does with long range guns.

>>43598935
why thunderhead when stormwall

>>43599677
why anything when stormwall

help me understand the assimilater tg his ground pounder attack is a special attack. do you need to spend a focus to use it? when it says "this model makes an attack against all models under the template" does that mean it makes a number of attacks equal to the number under the template or it makes one attack and compares it to the defense of everything?

>>43600972
No focus is needed, you just forfeit his initial attacks to do it. And yes, you have to roll to hi every model under the 4'' aoe

>>43601091
Also noteworthy, he can't make a grounder pounder attack and get his melee initial with Syntherion's feat turn, nor can he trample/slam/charge and make the special attack, but can make his normal ranged attack.

>>43598935
I thought cygnar had 3 jacks, the Thead aint one of them

>>43601111

how is the modulator with synth? I know hotshot doesnt boost the direct line thing but still

>>43598935
>waac
sure is warhammer refugee in here

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>>43600170
>why anything when stormwall

Why even create lists when professional plastic army men pushers who play dozens of games a week make them for you and you can just Add List To Cart?

>>43602209
>cuz some of us enjoy the minis portion of the game and not the stupid deck-building aspect of it.

>>43602914
>>43602209


That said.... I also hate the stupid deck-building part of it, but for different reasons.

I use to not care if my opponent had a super-list, because my gimmicky shit still won from time to time.

Lists have gotten too good, and the players along with it. Internet spreads things faster and faster... and what used to be a smaller pond is now connected to a larger stream of tuning and optimization.

In short... I need a new game to play :P Anyone know of a game like Warmachine and Hordes but not as combo heavy/deck build-y?

>>43597563
>There's really nothing like Deathjack in the game.
Well Megalith is sort of a bit like Deathjack.

>>43602962

play in league games with people who aren't playing with the sole purpose of winning?

>>43602962
>In short... I need a new game to play :P Anyone know of a game like Warmachine and Hordes but not as combo heavy/deck build-y?
Yeah, 40k. Have "fun" with that.

>>43603501
That's nothing even Skirmish...

>>43603613
1. Warmahordes isn't a skirmish game

2. Your problem is "people are too good at the game abloobloobloo", so GW is probably the only place you'll fit in.

>>43603709
>"people are too good at the game abloobloobloo"
Not him, but this game is really combo heavy.

>>43603871
yes... and?

>>43601248
Its dirt cheap and not half bad at clearing infantry, Im not a bit fan of it personally, but in pairs or more might be pretty good, just dont own a second floater.

>>43601248
You take as many of them as you can with Synth and then you laugh.

Modulator spam is quite the thing.

>>43603914

He was asking for a similar game without the heavy 'Deckbuilding' aspect which Warmahordes does undeniably have.

I like it but it's not everyone's cup of tea.

>>43604012
You mean list building? something that every miniature wargames have?

>>43602962
While I'm still at the "my stupid lists win at least sometimes" phase, I know what you mean. I still love the game for its setting and find tons of options nice to have. But secretly I've been worried a bit. Tournament scene seems to seep into casual gaming in Warmachine much more than in other games.

It's actually difficult to find a game that is "like" WM/H. And by that I mean a relatively small model count (in-game, that is) but not an actual skirmish with captivating non-standard fantasy setting.

Warpath might be something to look into, though it's scifi and I don't know diddly squat about the army sizes there.

If you're willing to expand to pure skirmish games then there are plethora of options to choose from. But good luck finding players and stable meta for your chosen skirmish game, since they tend to flourish for a little while and then fade away.

>>43604273
I'm sure you know fully well what he meant.

>>43604491
>I'm sure you know fully well what he meant.
are you implying that miniature wargaming won't have list building?

Permabanned from the PP boards. Should have known better from posting there regularly, but still.

Anyone else notice a massive influx of people bitching about competitive gamer strawmen and whining for nerfs for all the shit they're too tactically challenged to play against? It's not even a casual vs. competitive thing, it's just shitty competitive players pretending to be casual like that justifies their shitty attitude.

Well, anyway, apparently I'm now banned because I was using "profanity" (they have a fucking filter for fucks sake). They've been doing some weird shit over on those boards and stealth moderating a lot of threads. Removing the release schedule seems like a weird move, too. Hope they're doing okay.

>>43605457
>Removing the release schedule seems like a weird move, too

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?240826-Upcoming-realeases&p=3327685&viewfull=1#post3327685

>>43605525
>http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?240826-Upcoming-realeases&p=3327685&viewfull=1#post3327685

Yeah, I know. I was referring more to the events that preceded it, where a PP employee (not just a mod) gave a bunch of snarky answers to people pointing out the release schedule was not up to date. Those posts have since been deleted, and the end result was them having a hissyfit and removing it entirely.

The answer they give in that thread makes absolutely no sense.

>>43605457
i notice a plenty of armchair game designer threads.

People complaining, not really compakining.
There are plenty of players that are bored with facing the same old common lists every time though.

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>>43605457
>They've been doing some weird shit over on those boards and stealth moderating a lot of threads.

And this is "new?"

PP has always and forever used the Ivory Tower approach to interacting with the fanbase. Stealth bans, deletes, PPIDF - that shit has been going on for years.

The Warma boards are the way they are because it is nigh impossible to play the game "casually," and there is little "casual" support for the game, so the two crowds clash quite a bit. Casuals cry for nerfs. WAACs tell casuals to get gud.

People argue that Age of Sigmar fragmented the WHFB playerbase - Warma's has been fragmented ever since Mk2 shoved an exacting set of Steamroller rules down people's throats and made tournament scenario play the primary focus of the game. It's a double edged sword: It did attract a lot of competitively-minded people who enjoy an exacting, precise set of rules where measurements are run out in half inch increments and there is as little ambiguity as possible when it comes to determining the outcome of a game.

But while that competitive crowd brought plenty of money with them to gobble up the lastest OP releases and Tier lists, it alienated a lot of the crowd who weren't like them and just wanted a game to sit down and play and not have to think about like a 3-level chess game.

It's the same reason I dumped most of my models and got out. After playing 4 years of Mk2 I am convinced casual play cannot be done in Warma because the rules are too exacting, and it is way too easy to counter-comp without even trying. The power level of some casters is so far off the chart that you can't have a "fun" game against Denny, Haley, or similar because the disparity between them and things like B-tier casters is just too great. When someone can utter "feat" and omit rolling most of their dice to win, that's not my definition of fun. Moreover if that's what my opponents find fun, then they need to go play someone else who is more "competitive."

>>43605693
>there is little "casual" support for the game

You mean other than the constant leagues, various NQ scenarios, etc.?

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>>43605588
>There are plenty of players that are bored with facing the same old common lists every time though.

That's what I'm talking about: >>43605693

Why bother even building lists?

>>43602209
>Why even create lists when professional plastic army men pushers who play dozens of games a week make them for you and you can just Add List To Cart?

It's Magic: The Tabletop.

Wait for Pagani, or Brian White, or Chain Attack, or Muse on Minis, or whoever to pass down the "optimized" lists from on-high and then go buy them. Suddenly you're "good" because you can follow a set of instructions on how all these models interact with one another.

Don't misunderstand - just like in Magic, a bad player can fuck up a good deck or a good hand because they make misplays. In Warma the same thing can happen. But go figure that given players of equal skill, the one with the better list is going to win the majority of the time, and winning in this game usually involves employing abilities that ignore dice or have nothing to do with dice.

Every release turns into an arms race to go buy the latest OP shit or Tier (Croak Raiders anyone?) because just buying the models isn't as fun as stomping all the kids at your local meta because you spent hours listening to a paid podcast from Jay Larsen tell you how you too can win at a game of tiny plastic army men.

>>43605751
>But go figure that given players of equal skill, the one with the better list is going to win the majority of the time
How is that different from any asymmetrical game in the history of forever?

>>43605751
At first competition brought players into warmachine, but now it drives new players away.

Watch as PP changes its tune.
What has been discussed in the PG forum with the new quartermaster?
What will the new SR2016 look like?

>>43605743
iron gountlet, masters and steamroller = 3 competitive formats, renewed once per year.

league = 4 non competitve formats per year
NQ magasine = IKRPG + modelling + painting + fluff + silly scenarios 12 times per year.

Yeh, nah, PP does cater for casuals, they're pretty casual themselves.

>>43605693
>citation needed
pics or it didn't happen.

Stealth bans, ivory tower, yeah, likely story. Sounds more like butthurt

>>43605867
>Sounds more like butthurt
What else to expect, coming from the PP forums.

>>43605842
>What has been discussed in the PG forum with the new quartermaster?
>What will the new SR2016 look like?
I would really like to know. Sadly I don't.

>>43605751
How the fuck does paint even DO that to a model? What has happened here? And is he holding a big, black dildo in his left hand?

>>43606163
It's probably a non-acrylic paint that started absorbing moisture, which leads to the crumpling and distorted surface effect you see on the model.

Most likely some form of arts and crafts paint.

>>43605751
This is absolutely accurate. Another major issue is how much pgs are looking for advice for getting casual players involved in the game and their local community and most of the time insist on hosting steamrollers.

PP as a company and product line is gears toward casual community gaming, but just like the magic crowd, the most vocal and outspoken players are allowed to become the unofficial voice of the company's mindset.

I don't blame them, who would honest fuck with the people who buying 8+ of each model

>>43604728
You know what he meant. Warmachine has a very swingy combo system, where you need to memorize 50 different spells and units. Its not like other games where statlines are shared and special rules are not the be all end all.

>>43598656
Oh Morrow the command grab damage!

>>43606544
Have better prize support, have two different brackets- one for fun/newer players and one for more compettative players.

Idk why people whine about steamroller rules, its like they've never played a caster kill scenario with someone that just runs away constantly

>>43606922
>its like they've never played a caster kill scenario with someone that just runs away constantly
I haven't. Thanks in part to Steamroller.

I agree it can get a bit samey, but as a baseline it's pretty damn good.

>>43606922
>Have better prize support
I agree with this is general

>have two different brackets- one for fun/newer players and one for more competitive players.
No, just have more engaging casual play. also, what would constitute a "for fun" player and "new "player? that line is to easy to blur

>Idk why people whine about steamroller rules, its like they've never played a caster kill scenario with someone that just runs away constantly
Steamrollers are pretty boring to be honest. yeah, when playing against a good player it can be great but it all plays the same really.

>>43607564
Well at my store they ask you wich pool you want to be in.

We also do like weird for fun tournaments like "who's the boss" or "turrible list raffle" ect

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Regular PG here, I will endeavor to answer questions. Not PPIDF, just trying to be helpful.

>>43605564
>>43605525
So they removed the release schedule because it was there for retailers, not players, and they now have better ways to communicate with retailers. If you're not a retailer all new releases are posted on the main page so it's not like you lost anything.

People on the forums are being salty buttholes as usual and chalking it up to some grand conspiracy when in reality it's just one less thing going for PP techs to update.

>>43605887
>>43605842
>What has been discussed in the PG forum with the new quartermaster?
Not much, we just talked about how the game works and how casual vs competitive is stupid. It was an interesting couple of threads on how the game works from the point of view of one staffer. Keep in mind this wasn't the opinion of PP, just the retail support guys.

>What will the new SR2016 look like?
No earthly idea. We'll find out in June.

>>43606922
>Have better prize support
So prize support is up to the venue/EO. If you're talking about Steamrollers there's a bunch of different kits like the coins, pins, and trophies. Beyond that it's up to the guys running the event. Usually it's going to be store credit or something.

What else would you want to see?

>Have two different brackets- one for fun/newer players and one for more compettative players.
Ha, yeah no. Unless you have massive turnout for your events, like 24+ this is just a pain the ass and you won't have enough people to fill out the brackets. Sorry but this isn't feasible. If you're worried about newer players talk to your local EO and set up a Young Bloods style tournament where only new players can play.

>>43607897
How the game works? From a retail support guy?

>>43608177
Have you talked to PPS_Agel? He's a very cool guy with a ton of in site into how the game works and what products are intended to do. He handles all of the retail support stuff and posts a lot in the PG boards. Talked a lot about why MoW are the way they are and so on.

Super cool guy.

>>43608220
I'm small fry of small fry. Im in the SoCal meta in one corner of the country where no one visits.

I haven't talked to anyone irl about the game because I honestly don't know what I am doing. Not anymore at least.

Not a PG obv. So I don't have access to the forums.

I'm kinda curious on the consensus is on "casual vs competitive" though... As I always though I was in the latter camp but just sucked at it.

>>43608323
Sorry if this gets kind of ranty, but as a PG the whole 'casual vs competitive' argument that's been going on lately is incredibly stupid and bad for the community. The forums are awful and you shouldn't take whatever toxic bullshit they're complaining about as the views of the community as a whole.

Everyone wants to have fun playing the game. Having an us vs them mentality is incredibly bad and just pisses off everyone.

PP largely seems to think the whole thing is stupid and I agree.

>>43608412
Gotcha. I've been trying to stay away from the forums lately after I realized I pretty much only visited the rant threads and added to the "casuals vs pro" kerfuffle. Like nearly all of my forum comments were in those threads. Or the game redesign threads.

Funnily enough...reading my post history made me realize that I probably just don't like the game when its played "right". I love janky stuff too much.

So I'm kind of just keeping what I own and playing when I can. I won't try to raise a fuss if someone stomps me because he brought mega rock to my generalist list.

Meh. Ennui. Mehnnui.

>>43604491
Do you mean warband size with units but also solos or do just want a low model count?
Former:
Warzone, Dystopian Legion, Relics, Wild west exodus, SAGA, Darklands

>>43608562
The best parts of the forums are the painting and the rules forums. Fan art can also be pretty cool too.

Anything else is best avoided. The main boards have been taken over by what is essentially bad players who can't figure out how to beat x so they try and 'fix' the game. Sure there's stuff that could be tweaked or improved but any constructive conversation quickly gets buried.

There's also the occasional new guy who doesn't know any better and brings up the same conversations again and again

>>43606564
Yeah no.
There is a shitload of games where statline isn't shared and each units is unique.

>>43608562
>>43608637
Also meant to add that there's nothing wrong with your play style. Not everyone can make it to the game store and play tons of games every week.

So long as you're having fun

>>43608640
Different guy. I'm the SoCal guy above.

Most of other games I've played have generalist rules and less of an emphasis on make or break Combos. It's the Caster in Warmachine that dials things things to eleven.

People used to sell this game as "Your list doesn't win for you", I don't think we can sell the game that way anymore. Contributing to my lack of enthusiasm.

>>43608712
Well, it still comes down to 90% player skill.

>>43606922

>Idk why people whine about steamroller rules, its like they've never played a caster kill scenario with someone that just runs away constantly

The fuckbox isn't a whole heap of fun with some mobile casters who'd like to be able to get back out of range of long chargers.

>>43608783

Depends at what point you are talking about.

Heaps of Player Skill with a poor list won't do a heap against the Miserable Meat Mountain.

>>43608821
>Heaps of Player Skill with a poor list won't do a heap against the Miserable Meat Mountain.
I don't know what to say to that. Of course it does. You do know that MMM is far from undefeatable, right?

>>43608712
PG here again.

I've ways felt it was a few different things that contributed to winning games. You're games are going to be won based on a combination of skill, list construction, and a tiny bit of luck.

If you're good at the game you can play just about anything and come back with a win if you pick the right list in a Steamroller setting. You still can't just build any random list. You have to put at least some thought into it

>>43608783
I would say the skill nowadays lies on reading the board and not fucking your list plan up.

I mean dice can still fuck things up, but there are questions the opp player can ask that you simply might not have the answer for. That is the nature of the combo based system the continuously growing game revolves around.

I don't like being forced to play a certain way, and tournament style Warmachine kind of does that.

But meh. It's still fun so long as the game doesn't slog forever.

>>43608888
>but there are questions the opp player can ask that you simply might not have the answer for.
That's currently the biggest problem, but it's not as big as some people make it out to be. There are some gross mismatches, but they are vastly in the minority.

Also, nice quads.

>>43608867

With the right tools, yes.

God help anyone who's trying to do it with stuff like Defenders and Hunters.

MMM is a horrible missmatch to many lists that simply can't kill it fast enough.

I think the game has slipped more and more towards your list mattering more heavily with tier lists that require you to buy more of a given model than you'd otherwise be able to use (Hello Fist)

>>43608987
>God help anyone who's trying to do it with stuff like Defenders and Hunters.
Can still win the matchup with sufficient difference in player skill. Assassination and scenario rush are on the table. Not every game is won via attrition. Actually, no game is won via attrition, outside of MM/S&C.

>I think the game has slipped more and more towards your list mattering more
Maybe that is your perception because you got better over time. The closer you get to the skill level of your opponents, the more lists matter.

>with tier lists that require you to buy more of a given model than you'd otherwise be able to use
Tier lists are not all there is to it. It's just what the forums want to be angry at right now. Don't be the forums.

You don't need theme lists to win games and do well and theme lists are not unbeatable. Some of them are pretty good but they're not unbeatable. The only super bad one you could argue for would be Wold War but that's it since Denny2 got nerfed.

All the other popular ones might be bad for diversity in a meta but that's not bad for the game as a whole. If anything that just means you know exactly what to bring to crush that Troll player

>>43608712
Look into skirmish?
Besides >>43608628 who are warband game sized games skirmish game reign supreme in pulling of combos or making use of your list.
Malifaux while emphasizes list-building based on scenario a big part of it is reacting to your opponent.
Also continuing listing games as while warmachine is great it can get exhausting.
Shitposting it here (only one post)
Freebooters Fate, Batman with BANEZ, Wolsung, eden, Bushido, nordwind and somewhat MERCS.

>>43609324
Meant to add, Wold War is only really 'bad' because it has very few, if any bad match ups. It has a crazy high skill cap to play well but once you get there you have to fuck up pretty bad to lose.

Good news is no one really plays him nationally. Bad news is if there's a Brad player in your meta you're going to have to change your lists up to beat him

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Coming November 25th

>>43609324
EE is unacceptable in my opinion. 11 free points is too much and way above other point-reduction lists in both sheer numbers and the things that are being cheapened. AD on top of that is absurd. It would still be a very strong theme list if the ONLY benefit was the point cost reduction.

>>43610118
A point reduction on overcosted Troll lights? Oh God it's the end of the world.

The models you get discounts on aren't very good and are incredibly easy to mitigate. If you're having trouble with EE you need to change up your lists and tactics because it is very easy to predict and counter.

>>43610158
Found Ebonlance.

Why even assign pt costs if you won't abide by them normally?

>>43610266
>Why even assign pt costs if you won't abide by them normally?
Because this isn't Age of Sigmar

The restrictions placed on theme list balance out the bonuses you get. In a world where there no heavy warbeasts to get work done Troll lights cost one less point.

>>43608040
Sorry you dont have a lot of people in your meta

>>43610411
Work done? You just stand there and win. I can't deal enough dmg to you.

You are tactical genius. Bravo. You win.

Im just half yanking your chain. It's just you are the only one that has ever said that all Troll lights are overcosted,without fail every time someone mentions EE.

Just try not to rage when it eventually gets nerfed.

>>43610518
Do you actually think a list without access to any of the normal models that do work in Trolls shouldn't have discounted lights? Troll lights are balanced around the idea that their buffing infantry or Dire Trolls. Those models don't exist in EE and with their poor stats stuff like the Pyre Troll isn't worth 5 points.

You're crazy if you think the list will get nerfed. PP doesn't make changes he's to theme lists and there's nothing broken in the list. What are they going to do?

>>43609967
>No Conflux
It's honestly hilarious at this point.

>>43610118
Honestly the worst part of EE is star crossed

>>43610616
The list wasn't even intended for lights to do any work. It was to play the mountain king and do work with him. The -1 on lights was never intended to be used the way it is and pp clearly had no idea what that -1 would produce.

>>43610504
>Sorry you dont have a lot of people in your meta
That's not an issue. Our meta has close to over a hundred people in it and Steamroller turnout is usually about 20 people. Not enough people come to justify an entirely separate bracket.

That's going to be the case in any meta

>>43610616
The problem is that the intent didn't seem to be toward enabling you to solely spam lights.

That's what makes me think it will get nerfed.

>>43610518
What kind of lists are you dropping into EE? I just throw Gaspy3 into it. Ashen Viel satyxis raiders are hilarious

>>43610688
>>43610651
Spamming lights isn't bad though and it's not breaking anything or stopping people from running huge based models. You can bitch and moan all you like but they're on going good to change get the list. There's nothing to nerf and they're not going to tell people they can't at with their 11 light beasts

>>43582882
that's why I play WMtactics instead and not the wargame im waiting for it to turn into a wargame again. Mk3 hurry up. in the meantime im getting the full plastic kits while I wait

>>43610713
This guy knows what's up

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>>43610816
Its one of my favorite match ups

>>43611915
ALL OF THE SOULS

new to game, trying to figure what to get. but it looks like warhachines and hordes are 2 different games? is it like 40k is to fantasy? i know next to nothing about warmachines, so i dont wanna get too excited and start buying models that i wont be able to use.

>>43593211
this one has two hooks though
>hook two niggas at once
>hook one nigga twice

the possibilities

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>>43605842
>At first competition brought players into warmachine, but now it drives new players away.

I think part of what's contributed to Warma growth is populism - it's what people are playing, and the bandwagon effect helps (as does the WFB exodus). However, trying to absorb the 15-20+ unique rules of your own list is hard enough without trying to accommodate for learning and knowing what everyone else's shit can do.

That's the thing. The immense set of rules appeals to some, but it's driving away others the bigger it gets. The average perfectionist is going to love it, because they'll take it as a challenge to learn and know everything. You have guys who have played for years who even still forget shit, and the constant flux of new stuff keeps them on their toes.

But for a new player who doesn't jive with that, it's not their game. The ever growing mountain of rules is just a precipice to get burnt out on after the 10th time the local Cryx player drops Denny on you and you consider either dropping another $100+ on models that can compete with Denny for your faction, or just not bothering to spend the money.

And if it isn't Denny, it's someone else. It's always something - that's the game. The ease at which lists get counter-comped is hilarious, not to mention the power level of the S-rank casters compared to factions that don't even have a single one. How would you like to get pumped about playing Pigs only to find out that you're missing half the toolbox? Or Cygnar / Dwarves / Mercs only to find out that you'll need to drop $130 on a Colossal to be "competitive"? Or Skorne so you can find out your best choices involve dropping dosh on 5 boxes of Cataphracts that you can't field otherwise?

PP gets paid by keeping the rollercoaster moving up and down. It's the same thing that's done in a variety of MMOs. Keep the FOTM shit coming and people who want to win the most will keep buying and switching.

>>43612354
Anyone who tells you you need a colossal to win games is lying to you.

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Gorgeously hideous

>>43612661
I'm in love.

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>>43612661
Now if only the other one were as good.

>>43612710
BB PPStore Price: $124.99
AA PPStore Price: $134.99

Lol its not even just cheaper points wise, but cash too...

>>43612821
Is probably less actual material

>>43612236
They're two games that are the same game.

They're fully compatible and there are many models that can be taken by factions in each system.

>>43610713
wouldnt a competant EE player just bounce eleaps off the backs of his own frontline?

>>43613709
Yes, I suppose a canny player could do that. Its never happened to me, but now I will be on the lookout for it thats for sure

>>43614066
I like to drop the witch coven into them, the shooting denial is glorious. bonus is they do really well into runes too.

>>43614365
Yeah I miss Cryx sometimes. I legitimately had an answer to everything even when I ran jank bank lists.

Though my love of Mortenebra lead me to Legion...so there is that.

>>43610617
Riddle me this: Why does the lack of released rules for the Conflux actually matter?

No Warmachine faction has had their new colossal released yet. The rules may be public, but the models aren't out and thus aren't legal for organized play, so as far as actually showing up on the table they're in the exact same place the Conflux is.

>>43614803
Because it shows a lack of interest in convergence as a faction. Releasing the rules would show that they want people to be excited about the model and about the faction. What they're saying now is that convergence as a faction doesn't mean anything, it's not worth talking about.

It's also related to how much they've waffled on the thing. We went from it coming out in the book to absolutely nothing for six months now, which doesn't speak well for the faction.

And here we are, two books released, no big models coming, and they'd rather preview their new fury management piece then the colossal.

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>>43615222
>and they'd rather preview their new fury management piece then the colossal.
If their massive boner for fury management and hordes is nothing new

>>43615461

Oh boy, this shitty comparison again!

>>43614365
2 of the other Cryx player in my meta main Coven, yet I've never played them. One of them is the PG and says hes never lost with 'em. Naturally this means I have to beat him, but I know pretty much nothing about how they opperate on the table or what kinds of lists they like

>>43615461

Warjacks < warbeasts
Warcasters > warlocks

no real reason for either

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>>43615461
Thats why the Thrulg and Hutchuck are better than Eiryss and Gorman

>>43615629

i just now realized that pp felt obligated to give them a shitty equivalent for both for no fucking reason. Disgusting.

>>43615565
their whole thing is all about enabling your army to get to where it needs to be intact, with a small side order of buff/debuff. they have ghost walk, curse of shadows and veil of mist, meaning jamming up a coven list is essentially impossible, and with the ball granting stealth to anything in b2b, occultation and the los lowering feat combined with many cryx infantries resilience towards shooting, most of the army should be a solid bet at getting stuck in. Since they arent a warcaster unit all the witches activate seperately meaning you can play around a lot with order of activations, but also you can run a witch off to dominate a zone (and probably die next turn) while the others continue to do their thing.

Despite having 24 boxes between them they are SUPER squishy, and if you can kill even one witch they become cripplingly bad very quickly, they auto-lose to legion and any army that can ignore stealth easily should not have a huge difficulty in assassination.

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>>43615722
>thrullg and Hutchuck
>shitty versions of Eiryss and Gorman
sounds like Warmachine players are shitty versions of Hordes players

>>43610650
Not the AD on everything?

>>43582882
durst the slam jam man

>>43615588
>Warcasters > Warlocks
That is a blatant lie, unless you're talking about late game attrition.

>>43617467
git gud scrub
Amon is better than Bradigus because the focus and fury mechanics are balanced

>>43615779
Hows cryx into them? (Lets say eGaspy because hes my bae)

>>43616166
Correct. Star Crossed can really throw a monkey wrench into landing hits. Trolls are like one of the things Banes should be able to hit without a mat fixer

>>43618031
never played the coven into egaspy, but it should be reasonably comfortable for the gaspy player if the coven bought any living troops that can be excarnated easily (mostly the living models in my coven lists are the support staff so that makes it a bit harder), but those clouds shit all over another cryx players attempts at attrittion, and gaspy is significantly harder for cryx to assassinate than the witches when he has hellbound up. If you kill their arc node(s) then you waltz to victory at your leisure.

>>43617467

I would wager Khador's support casters are more combat capable than the casters in hordes who want to throw a punch.

The stat lines are better, the spells are extremely powerful, and the feats are fucking absurd. Casters like Vlad, eSorscha, Old Witch can rip and tear with the best of them.

>>43618080
Well yeah, but a few missed hits are hardly as bad as the scenario presence of 11 warbeasts at the centerline bottom of 1.

>>43605693

The thing I find the least convincing about this argument is why do casual players need to be catered to as much as "competitive" players who want a tight ruleset with as little ambiguity as possible? Casuals can literally just play whatever version of the game they want. It's like roleplayers in an MMO complaining about PVP balance because they can't fight well in their favourite looking armour. If they have enough like minded people in their meta then they could even do their own little custom homebrew rules banning certain casters and changing some rules. If the people in your meta are so hardcore that they can't play a casual game with you then you were doomed with a shitty meta from the start and you would have this problem with any other game.

I also think a lot of casuals are too quick to say they need to play the broken lists in order to compete. I don't know why more people don't realize that there's almost certainly no one in their meta who is a top tournament level player who is unstoppable without the right list. It's one of the reasons I just don't give a shit about Bradigus as much anymore, because as bad as Wold War is, at least I know that when I play against it in my meta it's not as if I'm playing against a Moorhouse level player. Play the lists you want, and if you learn them inside out then you should more or less be on even footing with the rest of the people in your meta. Stop blaming the game rules for not being balanced in favour of the style of play you like when you can easily make up for it.

That's the most polite way I could think of saying "git gud"

>>43619697
OK. I agree on a lot of stuff about about the meta being shitty but that not being the fault of PP.

But this game is not balanced. S Tier casters are considered S Tiers for a reason. Some of these casters can swing crazily high or have a tier list that is simply too stoopid for most non-A grade stuff to deal with it.

If there were a casual community for this, it wouldn't have mattered as much, but the fetishistic focus on Steamroller attracted the folk that really really like to game the system. The ones that try to find loopholes and stretch the anus of any poor game system that has the misfortune of bending over. The end result is that everyone is dead focused on Steamroller scenario, any discussion on homebrew scenarios is kind of quashed by the general forum populace as an "attempt to rebalance the game". All this stupid casual vs competitive mindset shit you see in the boards is kind of the end result of these two incompatible cultures.

Luckily PP has a very stretchy asshole. The game withstood a lot of it, and the focus on Steamroller remains strong because the people that didn't like it slowly left the scene or found a gaming group that plays in their style.

After my first convention abroad I have come to realize that while I fucking love the game, I can only tolerate its players. Because it's the players that turn this game into work, not the game.

>>43622178

God I am so sick of Steamroller.

Give some fucking variety in scenarios so the ability to have multiple lists lets you pick the one that's actually good for the scenario.

I'm starting up a gator army, is it worth it to pick up a Totem Hunter and a Thrullg or two?

>>43622178

Something they could really do with trying to fix up is the fact that 15 points is a clusterfuck.

New players would like to be able to play at values lower than 30/50 reasonably as buying all the way to 30 is a hefty investment for people who are still likely not 100% set on wanting to play/the army they want but 15 points has no real sense of balance.

>>43622192
>Give some fucking variety in scenarios so the ability to have multiple lists lets you pick the one that's actually good for the scenario.

So you want to make victory even more list dependent than it already is?

>>43622192
There are tons of scenarios available to play. Tons of league, event, and NQ scenarios come out every year.

Stop being a bitch and go play them

>>43622823
I guess the problem is oblivious to you. The culture has changed. It's Steamroller or nothing in most metas.

>>43622211
Totem Hunter is fine, Thrullg is entirely without merit (memetrain aside).

>>43623107
Then your meta is shit. It's up to you to start playing some of the other scenarios available to you and show people what's available.

Now quit your bitching

>>43623161
It used to be great, then Denny2 got nerfed and now there's no reason to bring him

>>43623172
Why? Like why? I ain't bitching but you fail to grasp the problem.

The problem is you.

>>43623192
>The problem is you.
I don't see how that's possible. My meta isn't shit, we don't just play steamroller. We have tons of leagues, alternative scenarios, and events. There are zero issues here.

The problem is you, your attitude, and your meta. Fix it and get over yourself. The issue is not steamroller

>>43623107

over the past 3 years, I have been a part of 3 diferent metas thanks to moving. one was super competitive, one was average, and one was very new. even the super competitive one, with people from there wining pretty much every tournament in the southeast, played leagues and stuff.

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>>43622192
>>43623107
>>43623192
>Wah! I hate steamroller, my meta is shit!
>Hey anon, try out some of the of the other cool stuff PP puts out. Try and improve your area
>Fuck you! This game is shit, you're shit, everything is shit! I refuse to do anything about it. PP needs to fix all of my problems

Well, ok then. Have considered playing other games?

>>43623248
I'm not saying its Steamroller. Steamroller is great.

The problem is just dismissing it and not acknowledging it. Your meta is great because the people make it great....the meta is great because you. The meta is shit because you.

If someone doesn't like the meta, then they are better served not playing in it.

I've found that the culture change has made things more focused towards building shit that works really well in Steamroller on and off the tourney field.

So long as he culture places value on Steamroller, then things won't ever change. The problem isn't Steamroller, the problem once again lies in the people. If we remove steamroller those people will probably will create something similar because they are the only ones left.

It's all good. It is what it is. A game if platic army doods that people take super seriously.

>>43623322
I don't want to namefag, but I'm just the guy trying to point out the non whiny reasons why these thought patterns persist.

I love Steamroller, warts and all.

>>43623334

suggest a league. what works in them isn't always what works in steamroller so lists are a little different. and super competitive people like the ones you talk about will change their list to try to win the league

>>43614803
>>43615222
Easy, CoC was a complete faction on release. Anything new that comes out for them is just gravy. PP will drop the rules whenever they think they're ready

Also, no one really gives a fuck about CoCk players

>>43623648
Then why bother previewing the model at all? And why tell people it's getting released with the book and then change your stance at the last minute?

It's not just that they haven't gotten anything. It's that they were told they were getting something and then not getting it.

It'd be far different if we hadn't heard anything.

>>43614803
>No Warmachine faction has had their new colossal released yet.
I do find it kind of weird how Hordes is already getting their Devastation gargantuans and yet the new Warmachine colossals are still nowhere in sight.

Really hope that PP is going to take a break when it comes to releasing new models to let their production catch up. They're still four books behind on some shit.

>>43623733
Calm your tits. You were warned that CoC would not have a normal release schedule.

>>43623896
That's not the issue here though. They previewed the model alongside the other colossals. They straight up said it was coming out with the others in the book. Then they changed their mind and refused to say anything for six months.

You do raise another issue though. There's absolutely nothing that says coc is a limited release faction on their website, so new players have no clue the faction won't be getting shit.

>>43624082
>>43623733
Again, no one gives a fuck about CoCk players

Second, they never said it would be released in the last book. People are just dumb and assumed it would be.

>>43612661
That's a mean hydralisk

>>43623791
I really want the Seplicur and the Inflictor. I already have and idea of the pin-up I want to paint on the seppy

>>43624259
A guy at PP explicitly said all the collosals would be in the book. Now, he apparently misspoke and retractedthe statement, but it's not the players fault for thinking it would be included. I honestly joked to my PG a month after the preview that it probably wouldn't even make it into the book, when we were discussing whether anything else would be in it.

Getting a shredder plushie and some Temple Flameguard parts.

I'd get Blighted Bather but I'm sure I'll blotch the paint job.

Today is a good day.

>>43627370
enjoying WM weekend I presume?

Anyone watching the PP stream on twitch?

Should I build my way up to an eKreoss theme force?

Play Legion now, want something different.

What tools does Circle use to deal with jams?
I'm going to my first even soon and jams have always been something of a problem for me, I just don't know how to handle them.

skorne players, how are the Aradus?

>>43630109

Not a circle player, not sure what your casters are, but pKreuger has lightnong tendrils and the warpborns have two attacks with the ua.

>>43627988
Play Thagrosh or Kallus
>>43630140
good
>>43630109
Everything. Circle shreds through front lines with everything. Blood trackers, Skinwalkers, Stalkers all kill jams with ease.

>>43630109
Related question from a different anon. What's the best way to screen my beasts as Skorne? I'm a little hesitant of Croak Raiders since they have to clump up to be any good at fighting and if they get engaged, you can't shoot.

>>43630456
>>43630896
Whats the mat on skinwalkers?

>>43632778
They're MAT 6, with the leader being MAT 7.

>>43630109
Depends, are we talking like the old school DEF-based jams? Because those are easy, Una+ Rotterhorn Griffons. And that's just the generic slot into any list package, not even getting into any specific caster tech.

Talking about specific casters, if derpy infantry jams are getting you down, just play Cassius.

>>43636231
Yeah thats what I thought, no skinwalkers are not good jam removal pieces

>>43638877
Knives are, but I'd say with the right buffs, spoons are better.

>>43638877

Then carnivore them.

Jesus, we're not going to have the "MAT 7 is bad" discussion again are we?

>>43640988

No, mat 7 is the line. 6 is unplayable.

>>43640988
They arent mat 7. I'm just thinking of ahat I throw into them (Satyxis with Ashen Viel) and Skinwalkers have a tough time hitting def 16. True they cause terror and gave CMAs, but they arent what I think of when I think "circle jam remover".

Mat 6 and 7 is perfectly servicable on infantry.

>>43610118
LOL that's because EE was supposed to gte players purchasing and using the MK.
points reductions on light trolls meant a cheaper MK.

Oops PP slipped up there !

>>43613709
Yes, that's exactly what happens.
Not only that, but once the lights lightning zap out the sea witch, then the pyre trolls will be dropping flaming AoEs not to mention cold trolls freezing models in place rendering their high def null and void.

Looks like some ppl have never actully faced an EE list before.

It uses light beasts as infantry.
All of them can run hot on fury, because losing one, two or three beasts means nothing because you have loads more.
So thats boosted shots all the time, all over the place.
They have decent def and high arm (krielstone + ua) and can heal and be healed.
And star crossed.
EE is the most brutal list ever, since B&S. and that only went out of favor because denny2 got nerfed.

I actually hope eMorvhanna gets nerfed rather than calandra. I find she's way worse.

>>43615588
>Warjacks < warbeasts
Yes. Warbeasts should have blanket, across the board every single one -1 ARM
A tiny difference, but it would bring them down more on par with warjacks.

>>43615779
next errata: coven becomes a warcaster unit.
Welcome to progress.

>>43617647
So much bait.
If Amon was so good...whoa the bait. of my holy baby menoth, now that's trolling.

>>43643122
>once the lights lightning zap out the sea witch, then the pyre trolls will be dropping flaming AoEs

You don't even need to take out the sea witch first. Force Barrier makes them immune to blast damage, not continuous effects.

>>43642093
Yeah, I wish Scytheans weren't so shitty.

>>43643122
Actually, I think you're pretty hard pressed to hit an engaged light to bounce electro leaps off of. The storm troll is rat4, and he needs 12s to hit his own beast in combat. Plus no electro leaps if its engaged of course

>>43644240
10s with back arc bonus.

8s with standing still to shoot(likely if he's shooting one of his own models)

>>43644361
Nevermind, I stand corrected

What I like to do is hang back out of aiming distance then charge in with the ladies since I'm hard pressed to engage on t1

> dead game

Warmachine Weekend round1 results. Thanks to twitter updates from Chilly Winters and Zoria Simpson.

1 Tom Guan (Cryx - Denny1) defeated 32 Chris Green (Cryx-Gaspy2) via caster kill
17 Dustin McWhirter (Cygnar - Stryker2) defeated 16 John Carpentier (Trolls-Doomshaper3) via caster kill

24 Brynn Holdstock (Retribution - Isyria) defeated 9 Brian Marino (Legion - Lylyth3) via caster kill
8 Brent Simon (Legion-Kallus) defeated 25 Will Pagani (Cygnar-Haley3) via caster kill

29 Marc Andre LeBlanc (Cygnar-Haley2) defeated 4 Keith Christiansen (Cygnar-Caine2) via caster kill
13 Jeremy Lee (Cryx-Gaspy3) defeated 20 Daniel Yount (Circle-Krueger1) via scenario

12 Jeff Frederickson (Legion-Vayl2) defeaated 21 Chuck Elswick (Circle-Kaya2) via caster kill
5 Jordan Nach (Cygnar-Stryker3) defeated 29 Brandon Shirley (Convergence-Lucant) via scenario
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31 Brandon Cating (Menoth-Feora2) defeated 2 Trevor Attridge (Cygnar-Haley2) via caster kill
18 Mike Puryear (Menoth-Durst) defeated 15 Jake VanMeter (Legion-Abby2) via caster kill

10 Jason Watt (Convergence-Axis) defeated 23 Robby Oylear (Menoth-Amon) via scenario
7 Jay Larsen (Trolls-Doomshaper1) defeated 26 Dan Gokgoz (Retribution-Ravyn) via caster kill

3 Brett Fogel-IG Winner (Circle-Krueger2) defeated 30 Chris Orr (Legion-Vayl1) via scenario
19 Greg Harrison (Cryx-Gaspy2) defeated 14 Dan Sammons (Trolls-Calandra) via scenario

11 Billy Nichols (Circle-Krueger2) defeated 22 Brad Hartbaur (Khador-Butcher2) via caster kill
27 Brian White (Legion-Lylyth2) defeated 6 Ryan Chiriboga (Cryx-Goreshade2) via scenario

Best way to run Smigg? Gunnbjorn or Grimm? Blitzer or Bomber?
Think the new pyg shit will be any good or garbo tier?

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>>43649046
Doesn't matter. Unless it's OP and requires a specific counter, Troll players won't field it.

>>43646675
I believe you mean Dying. The game is far from dead, but you could be safe in saying that it won't be growing unless something is done about the bloat.

>>43649046
>Best way to run Smigg?
Easy, don't bother

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>>43649250
>Warmachine
>Second biggest game in US
>Dying
This is bait

>>43649021
Round 2 results of undefeated players. Thanks to twitter updates from Chilly Winters.

1 Tom Guan (Cryx -Denny1 ) defeats 17 Dustin McWhirter (Cygnar - Haley1 ) via scenario
24 Brynn Holdstock (Retribution -Isyria) defeats 8 Brent Simon (Legion-Kallus) via scenario

29 Marc Andre LeBlanc (Cygnar-Haley2) defeats 13 Jeremy Lee (Cryx-Denny1) via caster kill
5 Jordan Nach (Cygnar-Stryker3) defeats 12 Jeff Frederickson (Legion-Vayl2) via scenario
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 Mike Puryear (Menoth-Feora1) defeats 31 Brandon Cating (Menoth-Feora2) via caster kill
10 Jason Watt (Convergence-Axis) defeats 7 Jay Larsen (Trolls-Doomshaper1) via deathclock

3 Brett Fogel-IG Winner (Circle-Krueger2) defeats 19 Greg Harrison (Cryx-Mortenebra) via scenario
27 Brian White (Legion-Lylyth2) defeats 11 Billy Nichols (Circle-Krueger2) via caster kill
*This sets up a rematch of these players from the IG finals. Brian used Menoth in IG.

>>43649356
>40K is 1st.
>Doesn't stop it from dying.

Yeah it's bait but it don't stop it from being true. Hardly any new blood lately when we used to be getting them in droves.

I think X Wing is second now anyways... Can't get a damn game in because everyone be playing it taking up take space...

Ain't that big a deal though, I think PP is aware of the issue better than anyone in the game store. That said I am mega hyped for the Omega Protocol expansion over anything else PP might release ATM.... Unless Legion gets an "oops" theme force similar to EE.

>>43649946
>things are this way in my meta
>therefore things are this way everywhere

Yeah... sure.

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>>43649968
Yeah I agree.

I do hear from other PGs on their difficulty in getting players in, but this is the same general area. Apparently East Coast is pretty banging right now though.

It's not bad ATM, just not really growing. I mean we get some interested players in the league, but they don't stick around and once the kid gloves come off...yeah... not the most positive reaction. Our Steamrollers are bustling though, we get people from pretty far to play with us... But I can't say if its out necessity or passion desu.

It's anecdotal, but I guess it really only sucks for me now doesn't it?

>>43649946
>Unless Legion gets an "oops" theme force similar to EE.
Machinations. Also, you couldn't be more wrong.

>>43650451
Machinations isn't an "Oops". Machinations is just a normal EVayl list with benefits. Oops is when you fuck up real bad and create a monster like Wold War and EE.

>>43650587
Yeah. Like I said.

>>43650692
Seriously? Brad without Wold and Calandra without EE? The same as Machinations? You've got to be shitting me.

If machinations didn't exist, the list would have been nearly the same sans a harrier and a solo.

Brad and EE lists would be very very different. Especially Trolls.

>>43650731
>Seriously? Brad without Wold and Calandra without EE? The same as Machinations? You've got to be shitting me.
Oh no obviously not. But eVayl's tier was an equally dumb addition to the game.

>>43650759
Vayl's tier is just gravy, because it's exactly what she was going to do anyways just with some benefits.

Same as Syntherion's tier. It's not really broken in any sense, it's just a given.

>>43650807
>Vayl's tier is just gravy, because it's exactly what she was going to do anyways just with some benefits.
And you see nothing wrong with that?

>>43650827
Not really. Its not like shes getting 3 free heavies or something. Its also not a spam list nor is it a list that requieres you buy, say, 3 boxes of cephalyx drudges

It uses modles most legion players have on hand and gives angels +2 speed on the first turn big deal

>>43650914
Angels +2 spd is fucking ridiculous.

>>43650914
>Not really. Its not like shes getting 3 free heavies or something. Its also not a spam list nor is it a list that requieres you buy, say, 3 boxes of cephalyx drudges
No. It's just giving one of the Top10 casters 5 more points to play with, without any real limitations. And some bonuses on top of that.

>>43651015
It's certainly good, but it's hardly meta warping. Hell, it doesn't even really do something unique in Legion's stable, and it's not as if it's so much better than the other options Legion can put on the table.

>>43650914
Wait? wut?
You're saying that for a blanced game, it's fine to have one specific army list that will just be better than others?
How could they do this, if we hypothetically admit they'd do it on purpose?

Take a good warlock/warcaster
Restrict the list to only allow models that warcaster likes to use
now give bonuses for taking such models

Say you take Harbinger, restrict the list to all the best models, just take a meat mountain list and a typical harbinger list, list the models used in those lists.

Now make everything cheaper/faster
and make harbinger not take damage from martyring.

Does that sound like a good idea?
Because that's what machinations of shadow does.

If you want a theme list, then take Harbingers actual current tier list; no covenant, no mercenaries, no warjacks with guns. Theres bonuses, but there's restrictions
This is what all tier lists should be like.

>>43651542
Not meta warping?
MFW every legion pairing has Vayl2 macinations of shadow.
When an option if used all the time, then it isn't an option.

>>43651595
Except that's false.

pVayl, eLyly, eAbby and Saeryn all get played plenty, often without eVayl in the pairing. And it's not that uncommon to see several of their other casters around.

eVayl is a great caster to have in a pairing, but Legion neither has too, not even always, puts her in there.

>>43651642
3rd: Poland Leaders: Jakub Irzyk
6th: England Roses: Matthew Goligher
7th: USA Stars: Jacob Van Meter
9th: Scotland Irn: Fraser McFetridge
10th: USA Stripes: Brian Marino
11th: Italy Michelangelo: Emiliano "Bernie Lomax" Traversi
12th: United Nations: Russel Harmann
13th: Canada Moose: Lukasz Kruszewski
14th: Sweden Noble: Torbjorn Hansson
19th: Canada Goose: Chris Orr
27th: Poland Grunts: Michal Nakonieczny 'Riv'
29th: Scotland Bru: Luke Mason
30th: Ireland Craic: Mike Porter
32nd: Russia Bears: Artem Volik
36th: Portugal Prime: Vasco Oliveira
37th: Denmark Red: Marc Forsmark Nielsen
51st: Ukiraine: Gorbachyk Oleksii

Look how many Vayl2 machinations of shadow.
Look at mah balls, look.
It's everywhere. It might not be every pairing, but it's still an awful lot.
>discountgames/tournaments

>>43651746
Using the WTC as a metric for caster use is stupid, it's too wildly different from normal play. All that tells you is that she's good and the people at the head of the groupthink train play her more often than not.

She's strong, Machinations is strong, but they're within the margin of error for being fair and balanced at a competitive level.

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>>43651746

>i can find 30 retards that eat their own shit
>clearly eating shit is an epidemic

If you pick a single group of people, say they represent/speak for the whole group, then base you decisions on that group you can prove anything.

Equally, and hold on to your butts here competitivefriends, Warmahordes is really very well balanced. what this means in practice is that something only has to be -slightly- off in order for people to either fuck it forever or start sucking it off for days at the competitive level in order to get a single digit higher % chance to win. Saying that implies imbalance despite all the groupthink follow the leader bullshit at something like the WTC is nonsense.

Ironically enough though i don't even have to make that argument, your own list shows that the WTC lists ranked anywhere from 3rd down to 51st, it's not meta breaking if it didn't save Oleksii now is it? And even then by your own admission it's not in every pairing.

how would you feel if PP stopped making models for the main 4 factions and instead create two new Convergence style factions?

>>43653147
It wouldn't sit well.
PP makes good decisions about what to include, typically new faction models either make them more powerful or if they are already in a good place add options if you don't just want to play in a super meta fashion.
Putting that on hold while the meta gets boring so that they can... Add MORE factions that are missing key bits of kit? nah.

Now if they came out and announced a "year of Ternon crag" that worked to flesh out minions and merc factions? Well then skies the limit. Want a totally llaeleese partisan force? an Ordic naval force? want Magnus to be decent again? How about minions? want more effective pigs? rounding out blindwater forces?

It would benefit the big factions by giving some options, and the meta would be a lot more flexible, even Timmies and Jonnies would like it better since it would decouple the new models from the fiction a little and open up some new opportunities.

Any you watching the WMW stuff?

www DOT twitch DOT tv/privateerpress

Gotta watch this match cause Mike Puryear is my boy. I'm all menoth all the time and his listwriting and skill is inspiring.

>>43651542
The tier list alone warps nothing. And that's my problem with it. eVayl might aswell just have 10 WB points.

>>43652351
So your saying that the best WMH players on the planet don't have valid opinions?
That they aren't trend setters for sheeple like you?

I don't think eating shit is an epidemic, but you clearly do spout shit.

>>43655108
You just used the word "sheeple" unironically. I'm pretty sure that means your opinion is garbage.

>>43656047
Not him, but it's an accurate description of the online WMH community.

>>43656047
What ever you say sheeple

>>43656120
It really feels like it.

I like how Crippled System describes it. I think the last episode before ADR one had Frka explaining why the thought patterns on "S Tier" casters persists, despite having so many good lists in the game.

That said...my brother needs a Menite force that can run jack heavy and won't auto lose to the power gamers in our area (at least on a list level). My experience with Menoth has not been updated since 2011 High Def meta.

Anyone have decent starting group?

>>43656626
Durst does decent with 2-3 jacks.

Feora can run jacks pretty well, especially once her character jack hits.

>>43656626
>Crippled System
>Meant Battle Driven

They are the only podcast I can stand listening to, because they might complain about the game sometimes but the complaints are usually valid or have some backing to them. Oh and they know how to play when they need to.

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I am considering Minion Ferrows. Any advice? I currently run Gatormen and Trolls. I'm looking for a not Medium based army for a change. I would like a Warmachine one, but not to much appeals to me. I love Ret for the fluff, but I dont like their 'jacks.
Anywho, I'm thinking I'll get a 15-35 point army of Ferrow, with a Warlock or two to swap between.
So any advise? I'm going to start looking at all of it more in depth now.

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>>43657010

So even with the nerf it looks like Thornwall is still a powerhouse.

So what's it like playing in a faction with only one caster?

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My Errant UA, almost finished but need some last touches.

>>43656626
Jack heavy should work best with eFeora or Durst. Both due to different reasons. Getting them, a choir and ~2 Reckoners would probably be a good start. Maybe add Zaelots+UA for some basic screening and infantry clearing.

>>43658897
Wat indeed. How does Harbinger get Lip Stick on?

>>43659234
With the power of menoth, clearly

>>43658897
Apotheosis is a helluva drug

So the WMW final was Haley2 vs Lylyth2. Good to see the game change going and new casters are getting played

>>43663608
Yes, it should have been venethrax v sloan

>>43663608
You forgot about the part where Lylyth killed Haley in her deployment zone.

>>43665372
Whats wrong with that?

>>43663608
What were the seconds lists?
I know that Haley2 is one of the best ways for cygnar to play into Lylyth2, so the legion player probably forced their hand

>>43665466
Not any more, she's not.

Without being able to deny activations, Haley2 is just as likely to get shot off the table as anyone else.

>>43665573
Which is exactly what happened

>>43665573
So who is the new cygnar drop in Lylyth?
Do you just use a high arm caster, or do you bring someone with magesight and try to outshoot Lylyth2?

>>43666497
Caine 2

Vanquisher+vassal or Vessel of Judgement?

>>43666778
Vanquisher + Vassal is easier to paint.

but if you don't care about paint or have them painted I use the Nuklear Wessel every chance I get.

Because I paid money for that thing, dammit!!

>>43666497
>Do you just use a high arm caster, or do you bring someone with magesight and try to outshoot Lylyth2?

why not both?

siege.jpg

>>43658897
Clearly her pauldrons were inferior.

>>43666497
Siege can do it. Foxhole can protect himself, and the casters that can remove it don't threaten him enough to kill him afterwards.

But Siege gets shoved out super hard, and has no real way to stop the Legion Alpha. And Cyngar can't take the alpha, as it stands.

>>43666497
Kraye, but 2x Sentinel instead of his normal 2x Hunters. No joke.

>>43650059

Exact same in my meta in the UK. X-wing has taken over the Warmachine players.

>>43650059
Yeah, it's been dropping off quite a bit in Melbourne too, though I can't speak for the rest of Aus.

>>43666891
I'm not even sure if he can see what he hold.

>>43658897
This image is in bitter need of a shop with Vlad holding a pair of white panties.

>>43657010
You'll fight a lot of uphill battles until your new Farrow lights come out.

>>43673421

new thread