Just out of curiosity.
Answer honestly, this is for informative purposes and nothing else.
Have you ever played RPGs or Wargames with women?
I play RPGs with girl friends and random peeps regularly, solely because the tabletop movement is pretty wide where i live.
Wargames are another subject though, I've played only once against some random girl that came to the store and had custom-painted pink marines and she absolutely fucked my shit up.
I have played with a few females in my DMing career. Probably like, 4 over the course of 10 years?
None ever lasted more than a few sessions, and most never made it to one. At least two were such miserable people the group refused to play if they were going to.
I've played with a few, but only two have proven to be reliable and long-term. Of the other four I've played with, one played an entire campaign and then didn't play any more because she wasn't interested in the subsequent games, three separate girls played for a few weeks and then stopped.
In the 90s they were nowhere to be found. In the 00s I played with one in the whole decade. In recent years I personally know and game with one 40k player who is a woman and three roleplayers who are women. I have seen more around the stores, but the men still outnumber them significantly.
Now get off my lawn you damn kids.
About half my ttrpg group are ladies, only one of whom joined us because her bf was gaming (she still plays even after he got a job that conflicts with dice time).
In local war games there's one mildly psychotic girl who plays Warmachine Hoardes.
I think every rpg game I've played since my teens has included at least one girl.
Boardgames generally seem to have plenty of girls. Don't remember the last time I played without one, but I'm sure it did happen.
CCGs I haven't played for years, but when I did, back in the twentieth century, it was all guys.
Wargaming seems to have far fewer women. I think I've met three female wargamers and they were all fairly casual. I don't think I've ever played a one on one match with one.
Yes. In college, the DM of the group I found was a woman. There was also her girlfriend who was new to the game.
I didn't stick around for too long though. She honestly wasn't that great and I must've made four different characters before the campaign began, trying to make something that meshed with the tone of the setting and never managed to figure out what she wanted from me.
Three of the four players in my weekly D&D group are women. It's a great group, we have lots of fun.
i have never played a single d20 game without atleast one female in the group. the majority of the time they are girlfriends or friends of the group who would not normally seek out /tg/ related things on their own but when confronted with the idea are genuinely interested. it is usually a low ratio but we have had as many as 6 female players in one campaign
a friend of mine who's a girl was GMing for a group i didn't know anything about and i asked if i could join in and play a fluffy dog knight for no particular reason and she said yes
turns out the whole group consisted of women (i think 3?) and i was the only guy she invited because i was the only friend who asked to join
it got SUPER awkward fast because they started petting my hair IRL and pinching my cheeks and i couldn't do anything to stop them other than asking them to stop which resulted in more awkward physical contact that i didn't want
pic related, it's me
I think the important point is that most girls that get involved in nerd shit only arrive there through an appeal made because they have a relationship with someone who happens to tangentially know about the hobby.
If it were left to the actual population of gamers, women would never play because they superficially judge everything by the stereotype of the person they thing they're going to be subjected to.
And let's be real, when you have someone who's only willing to get into a hobby if they find the people they'll play with to be attractive, does not contribute anything to that hobby.
Yeah sure, in my current campaign actually. She's kinda new, but her thoughts on bringing a interesting character concept to life is right on spot.
.. Also a few years back, when I still did Warhammer, I played against a young girl (and I didnt lose, I swear).
RPGs and Wargames are mostly a place for fat and antisocial geeks in my experience tho.
I don't think you understand things.
I'm not saying I'm glad I never play with women, since I've already said I have.
I'm saying that the grand majority of them fall into the category of "playing the game because they were brought in by a boyfriend, but still looking down on the hobby and the people involved".
same train of thought as >>43467784
i started playing RPGs because i was kinda dragged to it by a friend, in fact that's how most things get around since nobody sits somewhere and suddenly gets hooked into a hobby you dense shit
>Run an online group via Roll20/Skype
>This means 0 females, ever.
>I've run long, rather complex NPC interaction plots with guys, 90% of which involve them trying to win the affections of a female NPC.
>Just once in my life I'd like to roleplay a male NPC doing the same thing, just for variety.
>Even when the guys play chicks, they play lesbians.
I mean, it's not a huge part of DMing for me, not like something I'm dying to do, or that it makes the game not fun. But it would be a nice change of pace to actually have a girl last more than a session in a campaign.
The last time I tried, she complained that she felt like she wasn't getting the spotlight enough. After one session.
not to sound like a white knight but there's nothing wrong with not handpainting your units, specially if your hands shake or if you plain know shit-all about painting
i'm really bad at painting so i've always commissioned them to a friend
I´ve never played a Wargames besides a few matches online on specific platforms.
But i play and DM RPGs a lot, and yes, there were some girls in my games, not as much as guys, but yes, sometimes i´ve seen the,.
Shit, the first girl i have ever fell in love with was a girl i´ve known from RPG.
>specially if your hands shake or if you plain know shit-all about painting
My hands shake pretty severely sometimes. You know when they don't? When I'm holding a pencil or a brush.
You know what you do when you know shit-all about painting? You fucking learn.
I refuse to ever respect someone who has no interest in putting in effort. You make excuses, you deserve nothing.
I've only RPed with two women. one was a girl who was an attention whore who didn't do anything useful and let her would-be boyfriend (who she strung along until finally telling him to fuck off) make every decision for her. I made her cry once, not even on purpose.
the second was an older woman who gamed with her husband. she was pretty cool.
>"I want to play wargames, but I don't really have any interest in painting, what do I do?"
>FUCK OFF AND DIE CASUAL SCUM NORMIE
All the time.
I've been in RPG groups with anywhere from no women, to me being the only male at the table.
As far as wargaming, my best friend is the only one I really know who routinely plays, she runs Orks in 40k, but my pool of wargamers is extremely limited. I have seen others try, and enjoy wargames, but not get into them as a hobby.
Yeah, I've got a couple chicks in both games I play in/run. Funnily enough, both are usually really quiet most of the time, though that may just be because all of the other players are really chatty.
>Player in a RPG, can't remember system.
>Somebody brings their sister because she was interested.
>Game starts off like normal, except guy's sister being there.
>Within 5 minutes, half of the group is making sex jokes involving guy's sister and her character.
>Guy's sister asks them to stop.
>They make even more jokes.
>DM calls the session there.
>Guy's sister never showed up again.
The worst part? Guy was making more than half of the jokes. I've never seen anybody that uncomfortable since, and it's been a few years.
Similar situation happened with a group I was in once. A girl who hadn't played much before joined our group, and one of the guys there was /r9k/ incarnate and behaved like a complete asshole to her. She never came back.
I always tell this little fun story: when RPGs came to Italy in the late '80s, there were more girls playing than boys, because they were marketed to the reader's public, and were almost indie stuff. Then in the 90s the big names got translated and the turnover resulted in the mass of awkward nerds taking their place.
So let me get this straight:
>Dude plays a character
>People make jokes about his character being gay, liking little kids, not being able to get it up, fucking prostitutes, whatever you want. Demeaning jokes all day.
>Dude is able to shrug it off or return the banter.
>Chick plays a character.
>People make jokes about that character being sexy, seducing guys for the group's benefit, etc.
>OMG NO WE HAVE TO MAKE THIS AN INCLUSIVE AND WELCOMING ENVIRONMENT OR SHE WON'T WANT TO PLAY GAMES EVER
Why cater to people with thin skin? If the group dynamic is banter and demeaning jokes, and that's part of their cohesiveness, why fuck that over for someone who clearly can not fit in?
I'm female and have two gaming groups. My own group are all women and include my gf. We play war games (old not collectible) like cry havoc or battle tech or whatever. My other group is pathfinder. Our GM is not quite any gender but feminine leaning. There are 3 total guys though only 2 are present at any time. There are 5 women including myself but dis including the GM.
The LGS is a completely different story. The "serious" lgs here is 99% dudes. The lgs with all the tcg support is mostly dudes with the occasional girlfriend. Maybe 5%-10% magic players are women. That includes me and the gf if we're playing edh which is super rare.
The further I get away from collectible shit the more women there suddenly are. My old VtM group were exactly half female.
Same here. I regularly have mixed groups, and even though I've met my share of drag-along GFs, I've also had quite a number of decent players.
I don't play wargames but looking at the FLGS scene girls don't play those. However there's always four or five girls at Magic events, and the board game nights are evenly mixed.
you can say the same about most elements of nerd culture around the world honestly, comics for example were marketed towards teenage girls in their beginnings, same with tabletop
hell, even videogames were more popular with women in the 70s-80s, my mother was the one who got me into videogames, for example
I played an online (over skype) oWoD Mage game where I was the only dude.
The plot was interesting, the encounters were fun, and there was a lot of good character development/interactions from everyone. The GM's girlfriend could get a little bit rules spergy, but the only time it actually started to be grating, the GM laid down the law without fighting or making things awkward for everyone.
Unfortunately, the GM was trying to pull off something she thought would be interesting and fun for us, but it wound up DRASTICALLY shifting the plot at a moment where our characters were all at a major personal crossroads. It left us all extremely disoriented and disinterested, and pretty much killed the game dead in its tracks.
None of us players were really mad at her, just extremely disappointing. It certainly wasn't malicious, I just think she was overreaching. I'm still upset I never got to see that one through.
It feels to report on this, like it's somehow noteworthy. Uh.
There was one girl I played with while we were both players who just literally just played some side character from a fantasy anime, something pretty old. I'd have called her character an "expy" or something but that was literally the pitch, so. It was kind of annoying because the character was genki as all hell and she put on a voice for it like the one from the dub and I don't think I need to describe any more, to be honest, you've probably already got it.. It would have shot the tone to death but to be honest it was already pretty wacky before she got there. The campaign fell apart only one or two sessions in, though.
Currently, I have one girl in my group, who so far has been a pretty passive player. She says she's enjoying it, though. We've had, I don't know, probably a little fewer than ten sessions so far? She's gotten most excited so far by this one part early in the game when a party member tamed some wolves and I described them being friendly and wagging their tails and things, so I guess she really likes dogs. No idea how I ought to integrate that into the game, though.
Sex jokes never came up until guy's sister came around, and the session never got off the ground because people would interrupt the DM to shout something about her character getting raped by horse dicks. It also made half the people there uncomfortable. Besides, DM back then made it pretty clear it wasn't that type of group.
My last RPG group was 3 women and 3 men (including the QM).
Nothing unusual happened. It was a fun game, nobody did or said anything creepy, and we had a good time. There were always snacks and bevs available, and neither of those things became an issue.
>Play 3.5 years ago, randumb dungeons, not much in the way of plot or anything, but we were good enough friends, it was okay.
>Friend of a friend of a friend joins.
>Calls self FtM trans five minutes in, nobody cares.
>Plays alright, knows the rules, jokes around, acts in-character a bit and stuff.
>Insists on targeting male NPC's dicks everytime it's possible.
>Shows up somewhat drunk on her third or fourth session with us.
>Obviously tries to get her character killed, GM fudges a bit and eventually gives up, lets her kill her char.
>Gets up, says "That was great, thanks. Good night guys." and leaves, never see her again.
>comics for example were marketed towards teenage girls in their beginnings, same with tabletop
>even videogames were more popular with women in the 70s-80s
I gotta wonder, just... why did this change in the first place?
In last 25 years I have seen all kinds of girl gamers and GMs.
giggly middleschoolers, minmaxer, roleplayer who joked about coming to ruin our hack n slash, dice cheater, merciless tactician, GM´s gf who bitched until GM let her fireball everything while being totaly safe from any harm
Girls arent that different players when they get familiar with people and ruleset
>I gotta wonder, just... why did this change in the first place?
Marketing, I guess. At some point someone figured out that you could sell more if you sold an identity ("nerd culture") instead of just a product.
>At some point someone figured out that you could sell more if you sold an identity ("nerd culture") instead of just a product.
But isn't "nerd culture" as anything to be emulated a new thing? I mean, when D&D was out and around, marketing had nothing to do with "nerd culture." Nerds were stigmatized back then.
I'm almost tempted to accept this.
But for D&D and the like, it doesn't make any sense. Why would nerds and manchildren flock to a social hobby like D&D? Was it because of the fantasy/escapism angle?
It's a mystery
I have no idea, I'm no expert in nerd history, it's just a fact i've known for a couple of years
at one point it completely flipped social and market-wise and stopped being unisex hobbies in order to be filled to the brim with neckbeards who get defensive when women try to take part of said hobbies
maybe after a while women in general stopped trying to care since the entry to "nerd culture" is filled with guys who try to find ways to invalidate their nerdiness, which doesn't happen at all with men and i find it completely surreal
i personally know shitfuck about most things, even the hobbies and activities i'm interested and spend time in, while some girls i know can give me a comprehensive and extensive guide of the marvel universe and their iterations while i sit there in silence, yet she's constantly being inquired in order to find the smallest error in her train of thought while i just sit there and everyone assumes i know what they're talking about
i'll never understand where the "girls don't play videogames/read comics/play tabletop/know about nerd culture"
"Nerd culture" came about long after the things that it claims to encompass. The fat guy sitting in his parent's basement tinkering with old computer parts, playing games, and collecting toys is older than any recognition of "culture" associated with those things.
It honestly sounds to me like the group WAS changing, just not to accommodate the player in question here: as in, it was treating her character as one unlike the rest of the group. This is supported by >>43468864. Gender aside, it's kind of a really fucking douchebag thing to do to treat somebody as the odd player out like that, like if your entire group insists on not explaining the in-jokes you've accumulated through the campaign so far or something. That's just fucking rude.
I think it had something to do with the influence of fantasy novels, and the fact that dungeon crawling video games didn't exist yet, which gave the experience they really wanted, and D&D was the closest thing at the time.
>But isn't "nerd culture" as anything to be emulated a new thing? I mean, when D&D was out and around, marketing had nothing to do with "nerd culture." Nerds were stigmatized back then.
I don't mean "nerd culture" in the modern sense, like BBT and superhero tees sold in every store. What I'm trying to say is that the very beginnings of the culture came in an independent way and took root where they could; then, as the market expanded, the marketers played on the identification of a customer niche. It's a self-reinforcing thing, I guess. A lot of "genre" stuff is, or at least has been, marketed mostly to boys, and often by playing the wish-fulfilment card. The niche is created by the sellers as much as by the customers.
Had my GF join my short-lived DnD group and she loved it. Absolute best RPer out of the bunch and other players actually complained when her character was absent. Now she regularly pesters me to run one on one sessions with her in different settings and I'll probably grant her wish this December.
There was another girl there though, who struggled with shyness and had difficulty participating because she was horrendously afraid she would "screw things up" no matter how many times I encouraged her. It got to a point where I kind of wished she would bring her extrovert boyfriend along, just to bolster her morale.
I did feel the women brought things to the table that the men didn't and vice versa. On the whole, they committed more to characters than the rules and didn't obsess over "winning". The men gravitated towards exploring how they could use the system to their advantage and sometimes broke character to do so.
Opinion on my opinion:
Everything I just said is anecdotal. I've played with enough groups now to know that the main thing is having a group that's comfortable with its members, regardless of gender. Male or female, the main thing is to avoid individuals who are disruptive in some way, be it overacting, starting arguments with the DM, or just not paying attention. Both sexes fucking love the wish fulfillment that gaming can provide but sometimes approach it from different angles.
Same. Girl here and my mom gave me a nes when I was 4. My sister grew up playing n64. When our new stepsister moved in she brought a dream cast. My entire 90s-00s experience was that it's a fact that gaming is non gendered. I didn't live with my sisters but it was a big impression. This only "changed" post-hoc after high school when it seems people were either revisionist or the marketing of Xbox finally pushed men to the front. I also remember my dad playing battle masters, star fleet battles and hero quest with me as a kid. He bought me lionheart since I was obsessed with his war games.
imo yes. They also has a crush on me.
That was still me. The thing is, at the very beginning of the RPG industry here, it was all about fanzines and small publishers doing unauthorized translations. The first RPG books were spread by word-of-mouth, or printed by small publishers, that usually had other primary focuses. So the circles in which RPGs started spreading were already mixed, at least.
The big name publishers and distributors came later, and had totally different target markets.
But if marketing had such an important role, then wouldn't we see that? Wouldn't we see Italy as some kind of outlier, with a larger female base than anywhere else?
Is this data anybody has, or even cares to gather?
>But if marketing had such an important role, then wouldn't we see that? Wouldn't we see Italy as some kind of outlier, with a larger female base than anywhere else?
>Is this data anybody has, or even cares to gather?
Oh, I don't think so. We're talking about a niche market from 30 years ago. And in the course of a decade we fell back to the same models of everywhere else.
I've played RPGs with women, they were good players, wrong, it is more accurate to say that they were normal players that did things expected of players that included both good and bad decisions and playing as expected
However, I'll share a story with you of what happened to me last friday, and sorry this won't be brief
I started playing D&D5ed with a group of people from my uni recently. They aren't the best people I've played with and I'm the one putting the most effort into character interpretation but the games are fun and we all have a good time. There are a couple of girls playing now and them and they are decent/normal, but last friday the session became excruciating. Two girls came new to the group and they were asked if they wanted to try roleplaying, I should have known this was going to be bad when they said "Oh, is that what sheldon and the others did in big bang theory?" revealing them to be fans of the show. It started when they refused to play with pre-made characters of the GM and insisted on making their own, which isn't a good idea for newcomers (and because we wanted to start the game without much delay, not to mention there was a high chance of both of them never appearing again). One girl, let's call her 2, was more quiet and it didn't take long to finish her character sheet for her rogue, at least after how long they both spent thinking what race they wanted to be (tieflings, both of them) but girl 1, after she said she wanted to bash baddies and I suggested her to make a fighter (mainly because it's the perfect class for beginners) she wanted to be a druid, bitch class to make the character sheet (we are all at lv 3) and we had to spend 2 hours and half waiting for her and the GM to finish the character
I've only played with four women in my whole rpg career and they were all very decent players though two of them were rather shy and quiet. One of them is probably the best player and DM I've ever played with.
Yes, I was totally smitten but I was 15 and she was 20 when we first met
But the fucking best is that after all of that none of them had though of even the name of their characters or a simple story or any of that shit like their personality even when we helped them with ideas of how the world is and what is spected of druids and rogues to do and their mentality. They couldn't grasp a concept as simple as alignment, so they played it with zero interpretation and ruining the atmosphere doing meta rol when we finally got to play
And to summarize, they were fucking terrible, girl 1 kept doing stupid things against what we all had agreed (something like "an enemy is coming, let's all get inside") only to get some sense of individuality and be original, or from what I could see, to get attention (GM:"so you all go inside the inn?" "No! I'm staying outside") however, when it actually came to making decisions she was indecisive and had no clue what to do, and not about things like the game mechanics but common sense ("I approach the fruit vendor to talk" GM:"And what do you say to her?" "..." she spent like ten minutes arguing with girl 2 about what to do and who should talk to a fucking fruit vendor that was utterly irrelevant in the first place). Girl 2 wasn't as stupid, but because she kept getting dragged around by 1 her lack of decision making made the game even slower.
At the end, because of the continuous stupid decisions of 1 to be original, she ended up getting killed by a werewolf while we were watching from inside a guarded inn, throwing away those 2 and half hour of character making in only one.
At this point you might say "hey, they were newbies, it's understandable" but that's bullshit because that same session had a new guy that have never even touched the concept of role playing games getting into it, he got a pre-made character (dwarf barbarian), made good decisions, accepted the help of the veteran players and he did some crude (but funny and nice) roleplaying while having a good time, so being new is no excuse.
in a summary, roleplaying is like driving. A lot of people say women are worst at it.
It doesn't mean that all women are bad drivers and there is certainly a lot of bad male drivers, but the fuck ups that male and female do are identifiable and different.
"that guy" is a fucking pain in the ass to play with, but because I never encountered one I don't know if it would be worse to one "that girl"
Amazing how the reasonable posts in the thread are completely overlooked, but the idiots screaming rape and hurr durring their way into idiotic retard territory gets all the attention. There's something really wrong with the human mindset.
Well, it's easier to argue about the controversial posts. "Hey, I played with a girl and she was okay" "Yeah... it's good that you had fun." What more is there to say about that?
>This means 0 females, ever.
Of the four Roll20 campaigns I've joined, two of them had women and one of them had a woman DM.
when I play chicks, which is almost always, they are never lesbians. One was a slut, but never lesbians
The point of playing a girl in a group of all males is to add variety.
I wouldn't mind joining your games, care to share an skype address or something so we could talk?
I think if there is anything I'd want to discuss in a positive or constructive manner, it would be bringing more women into gaming. Those I've introduced to it really liked it and getting an equal level of participation would mean doubling the size of a community that /tg/ constantly claims is dying.
To be fair, not getting airtime in a Roll20 game sucks donkey dick if you play without video. The DM can't read body language to tell if one person is getting board and often becomes entangled with one or two PCs in particular. This problem is amplified if you split the party.
Another femanon here; my group is... it's not really a *group* in the conventional sense. We're all IRC pals (about 34 of us as it happens) and in-house we run a few different game (~8). Two other women in the group but honestly that's because the site we all met on/came from is mostly guys. So the pool for girls was small to start with.
My primary playgroup has one lady. It's an interesting case where she's actually in a relationship with one of the other players and that -hasn't- been an issue, even when he DMs. So that's nice.
Played with a few others too, one regularly as we've ended up in the same games a few times. Definitely rarer than guys but apparently not as much as they used to be.
>I wouldn't mind joining your games
This isn't really how recruiting works. Is it a common thing for DMs to just give everyone who asks a spot, especially when they're asking to join while knowing literally nothing about the game, system, group, etc.?
It wasn't that. It was that she came to me after the first session and basically started babbling a bunch of tumblr-style nonsense about "I feel like everyone is talking over me and making it clear that they don't value my opinions and being dismissive and blah blah blah" all because it's a party of 6 fucking people and she's not being the party face because, surprise, there's a player who's more outgoing and has a more charismatic character.
I have never run a game with video (though I'm endeavoring too, but I have a feeling I'll be the only somewhat normal-looking person that plays), but I can't imagine it would run much differently. I've never, ever had a dude complain about people "talking over him and invalidating him" in my life.
I like to play asexual characters or characters that deal with sexuality in a more romantic way.
My last woman character (a human fighter) was married. The one before her (a halfling rogue) was a hopeless romantic and in love with the party's half-orc fighter cause he was strong, mean but secretly amiable and sweet.
It's not easy roleplaying them convincingly when it comes to sexuality, tho.
>>theyre different! I swear
no moron, you percieve the differences more clearly because women are obviously different from you. when a woman does something bad, its because shes a woman, when a guy does something bad, its because hes a that guy, or an autist. its never "because hes a guy"
same thing with black guys. a black guy stinking up the bus? its cause hes a nigger, if its some white guy, you're obviously going to latch onto what kind of hat he wears or if hes got a naruto headband or anything but the truth that he shares your skin color.
and yes it works in the inverse as well, a black guy will notice a white guy more, women will get on mens case in just the same way.
welcome to the humanity, where you will take any excuse to make sure people you don't like don't belong in the enlightened and special group you happen to belong to.
well it depends on the setting, but for me unless it is part of the personality of the character ("this girl is a slut, this guy is a pervert") I see no reason to mention anything about the sexuality of my characters in RPGs (also, it is more of a "show, don't tell")
no, you didn't understand
when a man does something bad he is "that guy" and when a woman does something bad she is "that girl", and I've said that I never met any "that guy" but that I met a "that girl". I also said that "that girl" and "that guy" fuck up as much but in different ways
have you even read all that wall of text before making yourself look like a retard with that post?
Agreed. When I played the Married Fighter it never came until an elven prince offered us all the pleasures we could think of.
When I refused all the sensual company the prince (actually a cultist of Graz'zt) made fun of me so I revealed I was married and quite happy.
I remember quite well I was the one bashing his face in when we uncovered his cult. It was mildly satisfactory.
>>no I don't understand
I know you don't understand
>>It doesn't mean that all women are bad drivers and there is certainly a lot of bad male drivers, but the fuck ups that male and female do are identifiable and different.
you made that really fucking clear when I went out of my way to tell you that men and women fuck up in the exact same way and you only perceive a difference because of your bias.
Thankyou, I try.
As a side note, im the only male in a group of 5 including the DM. Its definitely different and im not sure if its related but the group has placed much more importance and time in base building, which I love.
Did you read his wall of text before making yourself look like a retard? The whole point is that they fuck up in the SAME way for the most part, but your brain amplifies any differences.
If you already admit it then its pretty clear I don't need to explain to you you don't know how to read.
>to tell you that men and women fuck up in the exact same way and you only perceive a difference because of your bias.
Males and females are not 100% alike. I'm not the person you're talking to, but you're really wrong. It mostly comes down to individuals mostly, but girls fuck up in differing ways to how men fuck up. That isn't to say one is better or one is worse, it's simply how it is.
From that post:
>I also said that "that girl" and "that guy" fuck up as much but in different ways
From the wall of text:
>>>no moron, you percieve the differences more clearly because women are obviously different from you. when a woman does something bad, its because shes a woman, when a guy does something bad, its because hes a that guy, or an autist. its never "because hes a guy"
The point is, they aren't different, not that they are both bad in different ways. The wall of text reply correctly states that the the central premise of the original and followup post is wrong.
Next pool will be sexuality pool.
I fully predict straight will be the least of all people here in /tg/.
Girls who enjoy dem dudes are becoming fewer and guys that are exclusively all about the kitty are becoming more and more colorful as time passes.
>>thats how it is uhhh because, because! thats why
good talk, I'm glad you brought up so many interesting and thoughtful points.
Why its simple anon, It's a magical grill.
He's saying more girls are lesbians (Don't know if this is true, but since SJW Feminism is on the rise, I'd guess it might be), and more dudes are becoming gay (which this thread is proof of).
Sorry, I must have been taking a cue from your own wall of text which only has conjecture with nothing to back It up other than personal opinion. If you, maybe, just maybe, want to elevate a discussion above people making declarations and simply standing on them stubbornly, I'll recommend you start the citations for your own statements first.
source cited, your move chucklefuck.
>Have you ever played RPGs or Wargames with women?
I have played RPGs with my ex-wife and board games with other women before. No wargames with women yet; none have seemed to enthused.
never had a positive experiance playing with girls. well as far as I can recal and we do tend to remember the bad more.
the fist time she just didn't learn the rules and tried to get the guys to keep track of all her shit. Se was learning to be a vet so clearly not to dumb to learn them, just didn't bother.
the second one was overly defencive. She wouldn't take any jokes about her/her char at all, no fun allowed type of person. Might be due to stuff in a prior group but she was an absolute kill joyfor our group.
the tird time was at a wargame event. I got in a rules argument with her and she laid it on eatra thick to get her right from the judge. In hind sight she was right but the flirting to get your way is a no go.
the forth one was a good rper and got along well in the group despite being an erasmus student so language issues. We did have to change the scedual to fit with her lessons. We also knew it would be a temporary thing due to her being an erasmus student and all that. But it ended before her semester was up. She did how ever keep telling us she'd be back in the campain (even got into online rpg platforms for her). She kept us on the hook several months before we moved on.
nothing that you can say are unique to women. I've had all of those things and more done to me by other men (aside from the seducing the jugde bit beut I've had them try to inflance them in other ways). Just seems that it might be more prevelant or just more momorable then with men. perhaps being that there are so few women in to traditional games to start with.
My group has been together for almost two years now.
Sorry we didn't bend over backwards to accomodate the bitch who told me, the DM "I play a noble or I don't play." and then complained when I told her that firing a gun will probably have some adverse affects on her fucking stealth-based character, and when she complained about people talking over her, because her attempt at threatening an NPC didn't work, but paying him some gold and letting him go did.
But yeah, we're the assholes, because we didn't break our backs making sure this girl was comfortable and cared for.
I doubt more girls are becoming lesbians.
would be nice though. maybe get more representation.
Are you really surprised that the people most invested in hating women make up some of the ones responding to this thread?
Since /pol/ 2.0 this shit has been everywhere on 4chan anyway.
Fuck off with this SJW shit.
>Since /pol/ 2.0 this shit has been everywhere on 4chan anyway.
You legitimately think that /pol/ has anything to do with a community of nerds not wanting their hobby to be overrun by women? Nigger, where the fuck are you even from?
but thats not my chinese cartoons
I know I know
>>have you tried not watching anime
but at least I have fanfiction. you know, when I don't have to sift between thousands of terrible rom coms where an obsessive lesbian is paired off with a guy who tried to kill her waifu.
I'm from 4chan, and I've been using /tg/ as one of my mainboards since 2008.
There has been a huge uptick in comments against women and the kind of MRA diatribe shit you'd more commonly find on shitty /reddit/s since /pol/ was reintroduced to 4chan. Technomancer would be celebrated here now, but he was essentially run off the board back in the day.
I'm running a Black Crusade campaign right now where half of the players are women. No problems with rules. One of them was new and got analysis paralysis for the first session but now she's fine. They're just like male players.
I am assuming it's more of a personal information kinda thing. Same way I don't broadcast where I live or what I do for a living on the internet I understand people not wanting to broadcast their sexuality.
I think the poll is right. I met girls on /tg/ before, and a 10 to 1 ratio seems about right.
I also met guys pretending to be girls too. And girls pretending to be guys pretending to be girls.
tg has always been sexist. but i do think that in recent years people have been getting increasingly mean spirited about it. back in the day it seemed pretty tongue in cheek, with -4 str threads rarely devolving into actual vitriol.
some girls joined our group before... I realize one of them in retrospect just wanted an excuse to meet me
because she wanted to fuckbut alas I was a naive virgin who couldn't pick up on such subtleties... they only attended one game
someones girlfriend became a regular member later, she was aight
I think it was less problematic before because /tg/ would ADAMANTLY refuse to acknowledge even the existence of women in the board at all.
Now that they have seen them they are on the "flip out" stage.
what he means, as previously discussed, is that when men fuck up, hes just a that guy, not a reflection on all men, when women fuck up, theyre overrunning his special tree fort with their feminism and sjws and they all need to leave him alone, no grills allowed.
-4 STR was usually an excuse to post musclegirls. I totally agree with your post, things are bitter as fuck now and the kind of dialogue you get was what used to be restricted to shit like the spearhead or /r/redpill.
I guess it's lowest common denominator shit/Poe's Law, but it's fucking depressing.
No yeah, I understand that. I just want to see his argument.
I feel like it would be something I could use in a good game of CoC!
Imagine an insane asylum full of people like that. The party is all female. It would be fucking harrowing!
I honestly preferred tits or gtfo over btw I'm a girl.
the success of the latter is written into its purpose of forcing words or motives in someones mouth as a method of trolling, shit posting, and attacking.
tits or gtfo was louder but always reflected on the people who said it instead.
its all stupid anyway. male is the default and anyone who pretends that neutrality is okay is obviously an attention whore or a sjw slut.
it was implied but i'll make it explicit. neutrality (between genders)
IE: if I made a reference to schlicking, it would be received the same way as fapping. the reality is that people who make any off hand reference to male gender on 4chan are effectively "neutral" because board culture says male is the default state of anonymous. any reference to being a girl is deviancy and attention whoring and to be ridiculed immediately.
The thing is - in my personal experience at least (because let's face it, nobody's done a double blind study on this shit.) That attitude stops the moment I leave /tg/. I've never encountered a group that's been hostile to the idea of playing with a girl, or who cites that one time they did play with a girl and it was a disaster as evidence.
If anything, my experience is quite the opposite. People (read: men), tend to be quite eager to get women into their groups when the opportunity arises.
Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've been a player and GM'd, online and irl, and not experience any of this kind of banal, ridiculous logic.
So what is it about /tg/ that seems to invite people to make this kind of ad hominem attacks and lazy stereotypes? Anyone have any pet theories? I'm genuinely curious, because /tg/ definitely does come across as vitriolically misogynist a lot of the time these days.
Funny how I agreed with you until you started making no fucking sense whatsoever.
If you crop your post in half you have two things. One is quite acceptable and an interesting opinion. The other is completely assholery.
How did you manage that?
well, its because they're qualitative statements based on culture and social behavior, not science or anything. in other words, because you have differing opinions than me, you perceive them as negative, but only the statements you disagree with, giving you dissonance when you originally feel like "hey this person is on my side" by beginning to read, and in the end, the disagreement ends like a slap in the face.
people actually are prone to be bothered even more by people who start out in a position they find positive and then somehow descend, than someone who was always doing the things they don't like anyway.
A social sphere of people who, in general, grew up in an environment where they were judged for their hobby are now being asked to be more open minded.
For you, perhaps.
yeah, even poisons feminism.
the funny thing is people act like the stuff tumbler bitches about is new, but as this guy alluded to
its just more visible because the internet is a free platform to soap box.
>For you, perhaps.
No, for men. This is how men work. If the girl coming into the group is not explicitly in a relationship with the person bringing her in, it means everyone there accepts her because they want to fuck her (unless she's ugly, in which case she will usually be rejected).
I think it's a great combination between two different demographics. People who are here for a fucking reason (I am preparing for my game and reading 5e threads as a result) and the 4channers who exist solely inside the internet and take this as their only identity.
People who is busy will get busy. People who have too much spare time on their hands will absorb all the shit and spew it out to others.
So I believe it is one of those "vocal minorities thing"
>an increasing amount of visible feminism in popular culture and people who feel threatened by that
I think when the ideology shouting "Everything is sexist, everything is mysoginist, listen and believe" comes into mainstream view and acquiring the power to fuck every single thing they touch, everyone feels threatened by that.
False. I bring girls into my tables because I want to increase the female demographic, I want to show them that RPG is fun and is something they can have and enjoy.
I am just as vocal and eager to bring a guy who is new to the world of gaming.
Hey, I am a dude and I also am a feminist. I think women do get the short stick in most social situations, from jobs to game gatherings, and I wish to see that change and improve with time.
>That guy who invites a girl to play so that he can try and get with her
>That guy who creates an overly complicated min max character for her to play
>That guy who gets flustered when the girl he brings along does something original and inventive when she should have done things his way
>That guy who finds out that the girl he brought along is not interested in him
>That guy who leaves in the middle of the game, leaving the girl he brought along stranded at a stranger's home
He pulled that shit a few times up until the last point a few times, but when the last girl he brought called him out, he left her because he couldn't handle getting called out for his bullshit behavor.
TL;DR, DM drove her home, we kicked out that guy and that girl is still playing every week with us.
They all 100% do only associate with and game with girls they want to fuck though. That's an indisputable universal law that can never be contravened, not even by the will of an all-powerful god. Fact
The entire premise of the thread is about generalizations. If we just discredit generalizations as an opinion, then every single post in this thread is meaningless even to itself.
So then what are we even doing here?
why do you think feminism in the 70s and before even that was resisted so much?
it was just that, again those ideas aren't new. they where in the popular feminist literature of the day and gave rise to concepts like the bitchy hairy feminist long before the internet got a hold of the idea. they really espoused close minded ideas like that on the top levels of feminism. pretty much any social movement had people like this, like the black panthers.
>that guy who invites a girl to play so that he can try and get with her
This is objectively the worst fucking thing.
>want to play game with people
>gender and race is irrelevant
If I happen to want to fug her afterward, I would ask for a date or something, all of it being completely irrelevant to the game.
It's like barring dudes from games because they're ugly or don't have the same world views as you.
>The entire premise of the thread is about generalizations
What? Why? When? How did you even come to this conclusion?
The thread was about girls in gaming groups and their numbers represented in 4chan!
the best way to do that at the moment is to shame feminists who spout SJW rhetoric and show a supporting demographic for women who are feminists is not in the exclusive hands of a bunch of wackos.
>It's like barring dudes from games because they're ugly or don't have the same world views as you.
That's what this whole fucking thread is, though. It's guys saying "lol i dont fit that ugly basement dweller stereotype." and then bragging about how they play games with their normalfag friends, and look down on the people that actually kept the hobby alive for the decades until they could just find out about it and adopt it into their "nerd image" that they started cultivating in the last few years.
The best way to do that is to show support to the women in your life. The wackos will still be wackos tomorrow.
It's the same argument against Games Make People Violent. It's a bunch of insane old people that know nothing of what they speak.
Fighting these lunatics is time-consuming and exhausting, while I think energy is best invested into making sure the people around us get fair treatment and understanding.
4chan since mid 05 here. /tg/ since 07 or so and I can completely echo this. Also more venom in these kinds of posts than used to be. Actually quit /tg/ for two years because of the influx of shitty personalities. Feels like a /v/ and /pol/ spillover.
I dont mean shame them as in fight them, I mean shame them as in show others there are people who disagree with them and that if they want to fight for equal rights they don't have to be with a crowd that abusive and nuts.
>while I think energy is best invested into making sure the people around us get fair treatment and understanding.
which, when you're a feminist, means affirmative action for women.
sorry, I'll treat everyone like people, and feminists of all degrees can go fuck themselves into their own sexist corner and whine about unfair treatment.
Because you want to advance the cause of women, who are currently under-represented and mistreated in a variety of circumstances. When we have absolute parity between the genders, I won't be a feminist any more.
People age. Our generation grew up with games so we know what it means. The older generation, the one that didn't understand what games were, they flipped their shit at the time but their representation is dwindling.
Sorry, I know what you said makes sense, but I can't take you seriously when you post that shit there. It doesn't help that I am a closet lolicon.
Being a feminist is actually a stupid word to use here. A feminist is not a person that fights SOLELY for the rights of women world wide, but a person that fights for women to have the same rights and treatment as men do.
We lost the opportunity to call ourselves egalitarians and it has ever since been a thorn in my fucking side.
this has almost nothing to do with equality. if anything it encourages slight inequality, as there are phisological differences between men and women. not going to comment on weather this is a good thing, but weather or not people should be free or not or if they should be secular or not is irrelevant to putting men and women on an even playing field.
I grew up on Wargames and Vidya and encountered exactly two girls in the first 20 years of my life related to the hobby, when I started RPing at 20 I met at least one girl a session.
oh I am very aware of exactly what you are talking about.
It would be pretty impossible irl. Luckily our entire group is close and pretty hugboxy (In the good sense. It allows the group to stay together, even when there are drama issues. We usually talk together in chat on nongame days as well.), and our gm is a pretty cool guy.
The group started on 4chan, believe it or not.
>n. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
But that's wrong. We have a word for this, and it's called "egalitarian", which literally means exactly that.
"Feminism" as a word, axiomatically cannot mean "equality of the sexes", as it is constructed using etymology that means exactly the opposite.
>Because you want to advance the cause of women
Why would anyone want this? I don't want to advance the cause of women, that's ridiculous. I want to advance the cause of people.
>When we have absolute parity between the genders, I won't be a feminist any more.
Parity in WHAT? Do you want equality in opportunity, or equality in outcome? Clearly, outcome, but you know the only way that can happen is through mandate. We won't ever get parity of the sexes in frontline military service. Do you want parity between genders in people who pick up trash? What about in people working construction or on oil rigs?
Do you care about parity in those things? What about parity in custody law? Sentencing for crimes? Pedophilia charges? Do you want equal representation for women there too?
>Because that's not fair treatment.
>which is why it's what feminism wants. they want the preferential treatment of women.
Fair does not mean the same thing as preferential. Why would you think that? Why in fucking Christ would you think 'fair' means 'bias in favor'?
I'm not even that anon, but why are you a retard that can't even understand/remember what words mean?
It feels like you're deliberately missing the point. I'm not advocating people being treated equally if their skills or predispositions aren't equal. I'm advocating gender to not be a considered factor. Gender may have *impacts* that create factors that should be considered, but that is not the same thing, and for gender to not be a means of imposing arbitrary or bizarre rules.
For example having skirts be a mandatory part of police uniforms for women, despite them being absolutely absurd and impractical. And yes, that is still a thing in many countries (most notably, Russia.)
>>synonyms cannot exist
sorry but you are wrong. etymology-wise, slaves are from slavic nations. so why do we call all our african chattel slaves? it's because language isn't your chemistry set. there's a reason dead languages are preferred for science. I'll let you figure out why that may be the case, for now enjoy a funny aspect of our retarded langauge.
>Have you ever played RPGs with women
Yes, many times, with many different groups over 2 decades
I've played with friends, and relatives, and randoms at FLGS, and people at cons
>or Wargames with women
Never a single time
From my own experience, they simply won't learn the rules of the game. Even something like nWoD, where you just add up the dots and roll that many d10s requires asking what to do every single time of every single session.This is not 100%, but it's damn close.
And running RPGs? Fuck, I've had every stereotypical story you usually hear.
Mary Sue DMPC self inserts, murder mysteries where she forgot to pick a culprit, weird sexual stuff, you name it, I've seen it.
I've played one (1) game ever with a female DM that was both fun and lasted more than one session. She ran Maid, it was hysterical, everyone had a great time. She put together gigantic random occurrence charts and was amazing at improving the resulting bizarre combinations. Easily one of my best gaming experiences.
>They're double speaking!
Look at this anon. Look at them and laugh.
Also, I'm pretty sure that's some kind of fallacy.
>Parity in WHAT? Do you want equality in opportunity, or equality in outcome? Clearly, outcome, but you know the only way that can happen is through mandate. We won't ever get parity of the sexes in frontline military service. Do you want parity between genders in people who pick up trash? What about in people working construction or on oil rigs?
>Do you care about parity in those things? What about parity in custody law? Sentencing for crimes? Pedophilia charges? Do you want equal representation for women there too?
Yes. Pretty much.
Plus, I want women to know they can achieve the same capstones men can, that they need not stay home and grow a family, that they can pursue an independent career, that family is what they make of it and that they need not others to tell them they are doing things right to feel comfortable about themselves. Be those people men or women, I want people to live a better life.
But I agree we lost the opportunity to call ourselves egalitarians...
Yes, I want parity in custody law, sentencing for crimes, and pedophilia charges. Stop trying to impose your own bizarre definition of feminism. I don't hate men, I don't women to have more rights than men. Stop being a reactionary idiot. I want men's synchronized swimming to be included as an Olympic event just like I wanted women's boxing and women's ski jump to be included. Feminism is the word giving to this belief set, and if you can't accept that... That's your problem, but don't go jabbing your panicky, swivel-eyed horror at the thought of SJWs changing the word to flip the patriarchy into a matriarchy at people for using that word alone.
The important distinction is that "feminism" DOESN'T mean "equality between sexes". What it means is "striving for equality between sexes by focusing on females and prioritizing their issues, either real or imagined".
The goal may be equality, but you don't get to disregard the method as part of the definition. Otherwise, your definition is intentionally misleading.
I know its a thing in many countries. you are the one missing the point. I never said you are advocating being treated equally if skills aren't equal, Infact, what I did say is that you believing the opposite should be true has nothing to do with feminism, since feminism is a movement for parity, it does not focus on changing the current paradigm beyond the equality of men and women within it.
>I believe in the good of positive reinforcement.
So why are we worrying about female representation in a stupid hobby, when we should be fighting to get more women into the career of picking up trash?
Person you replied to here. I especially hate when shit muddies up a group I support. It would be great if we women could be treated better and people would accept what the anon said about group dynamic psychology. Hell, even newborn babies are racist. Then after spilling, I turn around and some sex-worker exclusionary, trans-exclusionary, or black-exclusionary "feminist" is spewing weird shit on the Internet. I face palm. Never mind that she's in an insane minority of cult like weirdos like some sort of Westboro Feminism, she will be taken seriously as the spearhead of ALL feminism. Then you get women who call themselves feminists but spend most of their time shitting on Internet female personalities from an almost MRA perspective so the men will pet her and say "good dog". And because of these loudmouth people falsely marching under the same banner, people use it as an excuse to ignore the larger ideas of feminism. That men need it too because who perpetuates the cold, macho mentality that men have to be a certain way and can't have feelings? Men. Macho hyper masculine men. Like some of the raving lunatic assclowns in this thread.
the method is irrelevant. an ideology is an ideology. methods will spring up around any ideology. it does not reflect on the ideology any more than the black panthers reflects on the black civil rights movement. your perception of the way women handle the search for equal treatment to the sexes does not mean you get to rewrite the word in your image. the word has a meaning. the meaning is clear and concise.
Because people don't want to be garbage workers. It's the same thing when white people complain about agreements taking the jobs that they don't want. No one wants to clean out porter potties for a living.
Are you done strawmanning yet?
See, look at this guy. You are insulting every man on the planet. Stop perpetuating this bullshit that men aren't more than their penis. Or that they can't just want someone around because they're fun. Stop telling other grown ass men who they are.
I haven't played many wargames, but I've played plenty of RPG's with women. Half of my last two groups were female. The guild I was part of in WoW is about half female. Actually, the only male-dominated games I seem to wind up in are card game tournaments.
They have consistently been no better or worse than any man I've ever played with, if that's the angle you were looking for.
Because, you dense motherfucker, that "stupid hobby" is the best thing I have in my life. I am shit at most everything I do, but when it comes to building narrative structures for games I am quite decent at it, even respectably so.
I want everyone to know they can have that too. Me, you, other guys and other girls. And I want them to know it doesn't matter what a few retarded morons that don't know the smell of their fucking crotch think or do, this is something they can have. This is something good and no one can take that away from them.
So what you're saying is, you were willing to pursue an irritable and agitated argument with multiple people over the inappropriate etymology of a word.
I'm not. I might blow your mind now with what *you* might consider to be anti-feminist bullshit.
I don't give a shit about the considerably reduced number of women at the top of society, much as I don't give a shit about the reduced number of women at the bottom. Women, socially (and there are some interesting evolutionary reasons to suggest as much) trend much more towards social 'normality' and averages than men. You see less women in high power, you see less women in prison.
Although I'm going to play Devil's Advocate now, and answer your question again. Because garbage man (which for some reason is used as a synonym for failure... No idea why). Whereas world leaders and top businessmen, are successful. People aspire to be successful, not to be failures. So parity in 'successful' fields is more important for the well being of society than parity in 'unsuccessful' fields.
it is something people talk about. If they talk about it enough, it becomes the premise to a sitcom with progressive writers, like that episode of parks and rec where several female members set out to prove women can be just as good garbos as men
we're on /tg/ though, in a thread called women and /tg/. This may explain why we're talking about women and tabletop games not women and careers in garbage
>>That men need it too because who perpetuates the cold, macho mentality that men have to be a certain way and can't have feelings? Men. Macho hyper masculine men. Like some of the raving lunatic assclowns in this thread.
well you went off a little bit of the deep end here. because women are just as likely to do this too. Men are not the sole peddlers of masculine standards.
You linked the wrong person there. I think.
In any case I wholly agree with you. I don't care for better representation of women either, I care for their better wellbeing. I care only that their lives are good and prosperous and that they live it as how they want to live it, independent from other men and women.
That is not what I said, nor is it the focus of this conversation. Good job not acknowledging my other statements.
Also, the garbage trucks where I live are driven by women fairly often. They're the kind where you don't have to pick up the cans yourself, which would be difficult for most women and thus the reason why they normally wouldn't be hired. Otherwise you'd have the women working a different job, like being or call back at HQ. Fuck, I don't know how garbage jobs work.
Poor women are more likely to think 'waitress' or shit like that, not garbage. It's probably a cultural thing.
>Men perpetuate unreasonable standards for men.
Have you ever read a romance novel aimed at female demographics ever?
The men on the covers and described within are often the pinnacle of unreasonable and unhealthily high standards, and the books are marketed that way specifically because that's what the market of women want...
Sure there are guys who encourage hypermasculinity, but men by-and-large do it because its what gets them reproductive success, and to be reproductively competitive they have to live up to a standard assigned to them by the individual they want to reproduce with...a woman.
Affirmative action is ALREADY available to women. You want to know the leading demographic that uses it? White women. So fuck off when you don't know shit. Feminism has nothing to do with AA.
No. No they fucking haven't. A humanist looks at, say a poor person and a rich guy and says each should be afforded the same opportunity after they already started unequal. Making everyone stand on the same height of plank when people are different heights. Feminism is about giving the people who are shorter a fucking bucket to stand on so they can reach the same height as everyone else with dignity. There are two kinds of equality and humanism and feminism are diametrically opposed.
That is a street that goes both ways, but since up until recently the entertainment media was dominated by a male demographic and made for a male demographic there are more female objectification out there than there is male, and that's not even an argument mate.
I am ok with more novels and games and series, whatever, aimed at solely the female demographic. Shit, Sailor Moon and Everything CLAMP does basically that and I watched all that shit when I was young.
>Feminism is about giving the people who are shorter a fucking bucket to stand on so they can reach the same height as everyone else with dignity.
Psssshhhhh, more like giving the person with a bucket a second bucket and then blaming the person without any buckets when they wobble and fall off.
So you're doing that thing armchair philosophers like Jim Holt do where someone makes it well defined what the word they're talking about means in the context of their stance but you want to get hung up on definitions instead of talk about the argument.
As far as fetishes go it was not a big deal to me. I felt more inadequate about my material, tho. Mine is about 6 to 7 inches, she was way more than 8. I must admit it was arousing to dominate her.
The relationship itself was quite brief, only six months, but I enjoyed it and I hope she did too. She was quiet, shy. I imagine she thought I judged her secretly, paranoia is constant in the life of trans, so one day she simply disappeared. Went back to her hometown in france, I heard.
It wasn't so much an argument as a counterpoint, I think that each sex creates unreasonable standards for the other, especially since humans as a collective are now competing with each-other on the global scale, and as competition gets more harsh, standards tend to rise.
I just don't think we "need" a female centric activist movement that mostly takes place via social media and letter writing campaigns to do so, if anything, we need to take both womens and mens issues into consideration and create some newer, better fitting movement.
Focusing on one side of the scale for either sex is just going to tip it back into some kind of inequality.
>Feminism is about giving the people who are shorter a fucking bucket to stand on so they can reach the same height as everyone else with dignity.
You're demanding equality of opportunity and outcome. You cannot have both. Either you have a meritocracy, or you have enforced parity. Pick one.
My Call of Cthulhu game is 3/4 female, and I couldn't be happier. I think it helps that they all like the X-Files, and girls seem really into spoopy stuff these days. They're great players, and give me absolutely nothing to complain about.
You're insane if you think there aren't thousands of women cyclonically pissed that they can't work manual labor jobs including waste treatment. Manual labor is extremely sought after work with decent pay, good benefits, tons of job propelling skills to learn and unions. Idiot.
I think the attitude of any *reasonable* feminist is that women need more attention. At present. But they are (or certainly should be) amenable to changing their exact attitude as and when circumstances change. I mean, my attitude is definitely female centric, but that doesn't mean I exclude thinking about ways in which mean are ostracized or discriminated against. (I refer you to the earlier observation about men's synchronized swimming not yet being included in the Olympics.)
Alright, so substitute any low-paying job women don't want, and aren't forced to do out of necessity.
There's a reason we don't let women be firefighters or frontline soldiers. It's because the concept of lowering standards to allow them in puts everyone else at risk.
>I think the attitude of any *reasonable* feminist is that women need more attention.
And I think anyone who says this needs to stop talking, because women don't need more attention. They WANT more attention, but that's not the same thing.
I agree with you, but I am not against women running movements to better only their interests. For one I know the female demographic will never run a country, much less the world.
Biologically we are wired in a way that makes us take less risks when it comes to women. A guy gets a punch in the face and loses a teeth we fucking laugh at him, a girl gets the same and half the bar stands up.
Never ever in recorded history have we had a situation where women ruled anything other than homely affairs, and people were ok with that. Men ran countries, companies, armies, women ran homes, families.
That's why I think having women fight to change THAT something new that might break some of our molds and help us develop as a species beyond the muck that spawned us.
>Women don't do logging!
>Women don't do hard jobs!
Do you mother fuckers even WW2? After the men came back the women who replaced them at their jobs were usually fired. This is part of the reason for the second wave of feminism.
That's... Just a hideously stupid argument. The question shouldn't be about whether women are allowed. It should be a question aimed at each individual *person* who aspires to be a soldier, fire fighter, or whatever else, is suited to the task. If a woman is strong enough, athletic enough, etc, then she should be allowed. I will readily accept that that is *less* likely, but there's a difference between saying "women aren't allowed, because women can't do it." And saying. "There are a lot less women in the field, because it's harder for women to do."
I guess our primary disagreement is only about which sex has to deal with worse shit then, because when I look at things like the job death rates, suicide rates, deaths in wars, violent deaths in general, and spousal abuse rates, men seem to be significantly worse off. Spousal abuse is almost equal, but for all of the other aforementioned rates, males make up the vast majority of sufferers and yet most of them bear it silently and until recently nobody has seen fit to speak up about it.
I met her in a trap board, but later she revealed her desire to become trans. Last we spoke she had had her surgery, but its fine man.
She was quite chill, when her pills where in order. We used to talk about this shit all the time.
Btw, how do you spoiler text? Is it as simple a formatting trick as I think it is?
> It should be a question aimed at each individual *person* who aspires to be a soldier, fire fighter, or whatever else, is suited to the task.
That's the point. Tons of men are already ruled out of those jobs for physical reasons. Women are demanding entry, and lowered requirements to accomplish that.
Don't forget male circumcision being culturally accepted, men getting longer jail sentences for the same crimes, the fact that a man will almost never win a custody case against a woman, the fact that there will never be a woman prosecuted for rape, the rates of men incarcerated and ruined based on false rape allegations, the fact that women will never be forced to pay child support or alimony, the fact that a woman can opt out of a pregnancy or parenhood at any time whereas a man cannot, etc.
I'd say women have it pretty damned good.
But the reason they took those jobs wasn't because they were best suited for them, it was out of absolute necessity.
A team of people can fabricate a car, but a team of robots can do it much better.
It is injust that they were simply fired after putting in all that work.
>Don't lump all feminists in with them.
You call yourself a feminist, they call themselves a feminist. An outside observer has no way of discerning which is the "true scottsman", so the default assumption is that you all are.
Sorry, it's how it works.
That's the No-True-Feminist.
Unfortunately, they've cooped the word, its their trademark to hijack the language.
The only way you're going to improve the image of feminists is to denounce the people you don't like, drive them out of the community and force them to start their own distinct movement.
>my example shows my ass but instead of realizing I may be titanically wrong, please do all the work for me and try to find an example that fits the conclusion I predetermined must be true
Probably about 4 or 5 in the 13 or so people I've played with have been females, pretty much run the same gambit of archetypes that any /tg/ person sees. Only one that ever created any problems was the one that had some really bad social problems and self esteem and spent a lot of time flirting, but every other girl has either been a roll/roleplayer like anyone else
"Man" is not a label one chooses to adopt, "feminist" is.
We have one single definition for the term "man", it does not describe an ideology or set of beliefs. The label "feminist" does.
Therefore, when you say "I am a feminist", the first thing everyone does is compare that label to what they understand, which is other people who label themselves as "feminist". You can insist that you are not the same as them, but you choose to adopt the same label, which means an outside observer has no way of telling you from them short of a detailed explanation of what you mean when you say "feminist".
Please, don't be an idiot.
I know this is a slightly facetious point, but... One of the reasons that deaths at work and deaths in war heavily trend towards men is that women are actively excluded from participating.
But that's not really a point I care about. I made a point earlier about women generally trending towards less extreme occupations, both at the top and bottom of society, and noting that there are evolutionary arguments to that end. I'll expand. Humanity as a species can afford to let a lot more men to die than women. Women can only be pregnant once at a time, if you see what I mean. If you have 99 men and 1 woman... You have a hilarious gangbang and one pregnancy.
If you have 99 women and 1 man, he can impregnate all of those women.
Not to say I think it's fine, but I think men often *choose* more dangerous occupations for themselves. Wherever or not they should, is another matter.
I'm not going to actually try and get into an argument about whether men or women have it worse because I don't have anything like enough statistics to cite at the moment. (Yeah, it's 4chan, like it matters.) All I can say is that I do believe women, by and large, have more to gain from egalitarian movements at the moment than men. This also varies from place to place. I mean, I assume most of the people here are American or Western European, but for all you know, I could be in Saudi Arabia. The exact dichotomy is going to vary for each person putting the opinion forwards because not all places, be it country, state, district, city, profession, etc, has its own issues (or lack thereof).
I'm assuming they were then told to stay the fuck out of 'hard work' type jobs. My gran worked in a factory though, making insulator and other shit like that. Absolutely wrecked her lungs, and she's survived cancer twice now.
And as a woman, that's a crock of shit. Women should totally get put in jail for rape and other crimes. False allegations seriously ruin lives and anyone that does it should not only go to jail but also have rotten food thrown at them by actual victims.
Women should be treated exactly the same as men in all those cases, and it fucking burns that scumfuckers are treated different just because they have wombs. Fuck their uteri. None of that is fair and I hate it.
>tfw a bunch of feminist sent death threats to a woman that opened up rape and homeless shelters for men
>tfw both genders are horrible
That Anon isn't saying all feminists are bad, he's saying that to a person who isn't a feminist, or who doesn't pay attention to the movement closely, isn't going to recognize the difference because the "bad" feminists are usually the most vocal, and part of their strategy is to hide behind movements that don't actually have anything to do with them by coopting their names.
I agree on this much, but your point is to say 'denounce these people'. I'm doing exactly that, am I not? And I think we can safely say that 4chan isn't a hotbed of absurdist feminist activity for me to be trying to crush into the dirt. So by all accounts, I'm doing everything possible within this context already.
The problem with that is a lot of the vocal minority that does try to do just that are autistic sperglords who do try to fight them instead of just maintaining a civil discourse and not engaging or giving exposure to the nutjobs.
Then you end up with the super autists like Milo "battling" the super autist sarkesians and wus
All Of this is twaddle. A feminist knows women should go to jail for rape. Men get children more in cases where they want them. Biased statistics leave out the fact that less fathers actually want custody. And I have made it my personal mission to scream my head of at any Nasty child mutilator that supports circumcision even in ignorance while refraining from shaming men who've been victims. Eat a dick.
Fair point. There are indisputably some countries where women have it worse off, and are given the short stick by their societies.
In addition, I guess business choices were a poor example, because despite social pressure, in most developed nations it is still a choice despite the difficulty.
>>43474079 brings up some better examples of actual legal biases that are heavily in favor of women, at least in my country such bias is most definitely illegal, but because its so socially accepted, people turn a blind eye to it, and some female supremacists actively work to maintain them.
Sorry, I realized my mistake after I posted and it was too late, I eye-skinned your post and answered it without fully catching the meaning behind your words.
I apologize for my alacrity and rudeness.
Agreed, although I guess I meant more public denouncement, on social media that isn't somewhat maligned like 4chan.
Then again, in some countries there is a very heavy blowback for people who openly criticize feminism, and if enough shit gets stirred up it can turn pretty nasty.
Well that's too bad.
ALL feminism is wrong. Period. The very axiom that shit was built on are scientifically inaccurate. The very principle of feminism has always been at the expense of other gender, so what's happening with "third-wave feminism" is not surprising. Not a thing has changed. Genders aren't equal.
I do. It certainly is not. In the bum it is slimy and gross, while my partner described the kitty as hot and weird.
It might be a wire on our brain that makes doing it inside so pleasurable, I don't know. But receiving it in the ass is not that great...
I'm glad that at the end of the day, 4chan is able to agree on one thing.
Even if that thing is apparently being a... perverted cum hungry slut? This is the 11th time in 3 months that I have seen this derail. Next I'll see another thread taken over by trying to explain how a hymen works. Fucking 4chan.
No, but they should be.
TRANSHUMANISM NOW. DOWN WITH MEAT BODIES!
What stereotype? Many men are starting to hate women, that is not some /tg/ exclusive thing. I
Who gives a fucking shit?
You can kindly piss off then you know? The fact that you use "MRA" seriously and the /pol/ boogeyman is a giant red flag, so why don't you go back to /r/askwomen or tumblr where you can hide from reality?
If you have such a huge problem with it, why don't you try debunking this "hate". I mean, if women can somehow still browse /r9k/, what's your excuse.
Oh yeah baby, you know I like when you talk dirty like that.
Have you seen that video of the Street Fighter Championship Girl who got so abused during her match she quit?
That's what I hope ceases to exist when more girls start taking gaming as a hobby.
That argument would work better if I wasn't also aware of genetic difference between races. Let's not get into that. Of course, your argument fails to actually debunk me. The very definition of feminism, the numerous articles written by feminist authors demanding "feminist" biology, feminist "physics". They all make it explicitly clear that the goals of feminism must be done at the expense of other genders. Especially when they talk about the concept of the "patriarchy", a useful construct, since it unfalsifiable.
After all, why should I believe you over them?
But let's not get into that argument now.
I know we've pretty much crossed the unrelated to /tg/ lines at relativistic speeds, but I've been playing vidyer for most of my adult life and have never once experienced or seen abuse of that caliber leveled against anyone, male or female.
I don't honestly think anybody condones behavior like that except maybe edgy 14 year olds.
I have gotten into /tg/ through vidya garmes, mostly, and have enjoyed this board throughout my years. What some people here have to say about that is just appalling and I do truly believe some people here, even some adults, think that is "normal" or even "acceptable" if not outright righteous, which makes me feel like puking.
Honest to my heart, that's why I want more female diversity so that it's easier to pinpoint these gentlemen and even gentlewomen and isolate them and show to the public gamers are NOT like that.
Even that old grogtard stereotype fills me with sad, despite myself having a beard and being bald I feel that using that to describe this community is wrong and should change.
I think a large part of it comes from people who, for whatever reason, already resent women and girls. I think it comes from those people who aren't good at social interaction, who feel ostracized from their peers, and from girls especially. They find refuge in gaming, because it's a community that is easy for them to fit into, and until relatively recently was mostly devoid of those people they felt ostracized them in the first place. It's easy to build resentment for people you don't have contact with, especially when you're in close contact with other like-minded people. Now that women and girls are getting into gaming in larger numbers, those people feel threatened just like before, only now they also feel bold enough to act on it rather than just avoid the people who cause it.
NB: this is totally my own gut feeling, unsupported by anything even resembling science
>assuming I am the same person
First of all, you seem to think I don't know about the bullshit that is behaviorist feminist theory. Second of all, you made no actual distinction between 1st wave and 3rd wave when you referred to "The very principle of feminism", so you can fuck yourself. Third of all, most "normie" feminists don't even know about feminist theory, and simply repeat the song because is sounds good, not because they might actually believe it. Feminism can be redirected, and to some degree, will naturally do so. This is because the supposed normie feminists don't actually know feminist theory, and even though the "idea" will be spread, the idea will be corrupted by their voice as well. I even doubt the common pleb radical feminist knows much about the behaviorism in their ideology, meaning those they convert will also be corrupted.
Ultimately this: >>43474949
Though femen shows that it is not just an American phenomena.
>there are people that hate other people
Yeah no, you are onto something there. People will use any excuse to destroy and make war. It falls on the wise to stop that behavior. SocraticsFuckYeah.
B-b-but... why me? What did I do-
I've never felt threatening, or that other people feel that way about girls who play games of any kind in general.
The hostility comes from being on the receiving end of a concerted push to shame gamers of all kinds into inclusivity by people who generally aren't actually involved in those games at all.
It isn't the individual females gamers who are threatening, its that forced inclusivity makes people resentful.
True, but I would like to point out the shameful behavior of men of the hobby toward their female counterpart. Although forced inclusiveness exacerbates the problems I go as far as saying they aren't even one of the pivotal issues that plague diversity on the gaming scene.
It helps that there are ignorant assholes everywhere, but I really feel some people really believe "girls should play with dolls and not with games" because they have never been taught otherwise.
I don't know if you realize this, but most of us lived through the 80s and 90s. We spent our childhoods and adolescence enjoying video games and RPGs and comic books and fantasy games, and we were basically kicked out of "normal" society for that. We were ostracized, made fun of, and relegated to not really fitting in anywhere, except this cobbled-together society of other misfits who we happened to get along with because they were kicked out for the same reasons we were, so we shared those hobbies and passions.
You can't just gloss over this and say "And then because they spent so long away from girls, they started to hate girls, and now that girls are taking over their space, they feel threatened.", because you're ignoring the fact that even though most of us spent a huge portion of our lives being shaped by the fact that we were shunned and bullied for our hobbies, when this wave of fairweather "new people" rush into the niche we carved out for ourselves, somehow we're STILL being shunned, because now instead of just being ostracized because we like D&D, we're ostracized because we like D&D and can't get with the times and accept that women deserve special treatment and have a right to our stuff just because they decided it's popular now.
>True, but I would like to point out the shameful behavior of men of the hobby toward their female counterpart
Am I allowed to point out the shameful behavior of normal women towards men of the hobby? Is that something I can do?
... yeah, sure, but that's also the behavior of normal men towards the hobby in general too.
Sigh, it certainly makes it hard to find a romantic partner when you are an artist with a history major and do "silly games" on the weekends and never does "anything serious"...
Shit, way to depress myself.
>Sigh, it certainly makes it hard to find a romantic partner when you are an artist with a history major and do "silly games" on the weekends and never does "anything serious"...
I promise you, it's not your degree and your hobby that are the reasons for your failure.
Why the fuck do you roasties keep using "virgin", like its some fucking insult, or that's the only source of the hate. Everyone on /r9k/ who is a virgin is acutely aware of the fact. They hate women because they learn the truth about women from their experiences and are extremely jaded. Yet, you can still fuck women and learn to resent them.
No one is fucking "threaten" by women getting into fucking gaming. That is not some fucking accomplish. They feel threaten by the bullshit that women, leftist progressives are doing as a whole.
Comments like these only reinforce that feeling desu.
Is it because I am an artist then? Sorry, I am laughing hard here, that was priceless.
But seriously, I have no failure mate. Those things are not failures. They are the joys of my life.
And like any joy they are hard to share with other people, specially people who don't "get it".
>concerted push to shame gamers
I think you kind of hit it dead on. I can't believe I'm about to go all "hurr durr gamergate" but I think that really shows why people dislike sarkeesian and company. I doubt this is her intent in making her videos, but it does feel like she's saying "these tropes in video games are bad, and anyone who likes them is bad."
>women deserve special treatment and have a right to our stuff just because they decided it's popular now
This is what I mean by feeling threatened.
you used the word virgin, mate.
But seriously, I feel a lot of hate being generated here, perhaps it's tame the let the thread sage.
The genetic and psychological differences between the sexes, and how this plays out in social and sexual relations.
Being ugly, being autistic, having no social skills, yet wanting to engage in sexual relations like all humans tends to lead to some horrible experiences.
I agree with you there, but I don't understand how is that a "truth about women".
Sure, it is true, sure, it is about women, but that's hardly something other than common knowledge.
But I never called you a virgin.
>"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
And the reason you are being called out for your shit is because you just fucking admitted that that it's okay to hate women.
AKA the people who would be more likely to not shoving you in the trash can and call you a "dork"? Yeah, it sure is their fault your hobby is being corrupted! No one is saying that SJWs aren't shit, but assuming they are out to take your hobby is just /v/ tier garbage.
Depends on the definitions of useful discussion, I guess.
I am just killing time because I have a game to run this weekend and I am too lazy to prepare for it right now.
But I guess this thread is dying so better let it go with a modicum of dignity.
"Men of the Hobby" is a pretty gross generalization at least in my experience. Not a single time in my life has a "man of the hobby" either in TG or Vidya ever behaved in the manner some people would like to claim they do.
The times I've ever been mocked or criticized are times when I have said or done something stupid, and while mockery isn't particularly nice, I don't think its some great injustice, and the criticism is something I welcome
I'm drawfagging for an ongoing quest thread right now and honestly I'm suffering a bit from a criticism droughtbecause it helped me to improve.
Like I said, the most vicious and unpleasant people I've ever met in all game circles have been very young edgesters who haven't got the emotional maturity to be pleasant around anyone.
The "go home gamer girl!" shit really does piss me off, because I think its painted a very untrue picture of what various gaming communities are like.
In addition, this nasty and untrue stereotype of gamers of all sorts being unpleasant, unhygienic, and generally unpleasant people doesn't exactly encourage anyone to want to join the community, it makes gamers themselves feel persecuted and defensive, and it makes non-gamers or casual gamers feel unclean associating with the hobby.
within group differences are more important than between group differences
the vast literature and meta-analysis on gender in individual differences supports the 'women, leftist progressive' boilerplate stance, and is really the only valid source of scientifically real sexual dimorphism beyond folk wisdom and differences people fail to parse as cultural.
Well shit, hook me up with that good-stuff. I have some art of my own, and I do enjoy sharing the love around.
I agree wholly with everything you said. But I feel you are somewhat blessed that you haven't come across true manchildren in real life. I have had the displeasure of sharing an apartment with someone I can only describe as a schizophrenic sociopath criminal. His list of grievances went from breaking his mother's arm, who he constantly refereed to as "aquela vadia" (he was portuguese) - meaning that bitch - and would preach religiously about how all women where only here in this planet to die while he would be enraptured away by the aliens when they came back for him. Needlessly to say, the only couple that lived in our house left in DAYS. Albeit his mysoginism and clear mental imbalance he was really harmless and quite a nice person to have around, but living with him I came to understand people can be really broken inside. I can only assume his head snapped in a weird shape and got stuck like that someday in his life. He is my personal experience of the "men of the hobby" that I described as rotten and sadly misguided.
Still, I feel spirited to know a another anon that has good things to say about gamers in general about their acceptance and level-headedness, it goes a long way to improve my opinion of the community.
You know, I met about 6 people from /tg/ during my whole life. Not even one of them was overweight. If anything they were worryingly anorexic.
I really don't know where the fat standard and fatshaming in /tg/ comes from.
>Man is clearly mentally challenged
>You seperate part of his action as "misogynism" and part of it as mental imbalance
Sounds like just one issue, and it's a mental problem. Why the fuck would you assume there's also malice involved? How do you know he wasn't abused by his mother?
Come on, you're way too biased to tell that story properly. Why even speak?
Another Femanon here. I was always interested in roleplaying but only found a group to play until uni.
Played a campaign for three years then another one that lasted two years and many short stories in between
I also created a homebrew /tg/ hated it I'm ok with that
No. No really, I lived with the guy. I can't fathom how to prove it to you, but he was mentally imbalanced AND a misogynist. How do I know he wasn't abused by his mother? He went to prison after breaking her arm in a violent bout and then, when he got out, he went to London and she was the one paying his rent.
I don't know man, it doesn't sound like she was the offensive party here.
There was plenty of misguided feelings on his poor head, but as I said, aside from that he was a pretty chill person. Again, everyone has defects. But hey, I enjoyed his company. He was waaaay too batshit insane and gave good perspective on shit I needed perspective on.
Sorry man, I don't know what to say. I just wanted to tell about this guy I lived with. If it is worth anything, his name was Hugo. That's all I got.
You underestimate how low everyone's standards here are. We fap to drawings of prettier people than us in weirder and weirder situations.
Have you tried /d/ yet? No? Give /tg/ one more year, it will get you there...
Sounds like hating women wasn't so much a state he came to naturally through some bigotry as it was a side-effect of him being literally crazy.
I do honestly believe that a lot of this woman-hating is a straw boogeyman for people who have a vested interest in women remaining seen as victims of social injustice.
I won't go all "muh conspiracy" right now, but suffice it to say that those individuals certainly exist, and certainly do have a vested financial interest in the continued real or imagined victimization of certain groups of people, and will gladly promote a victim narrative because it keeps them employed.
The real reason for /tg/ only re-population efforts being doomed is that we're all out of shape nerds that are all together unsuited for rebuilding society.
My dream is to play rpgs and other games with my own children someday. Boyfriend goes on /tg/ sometimes and likes /tg/ related things, so I'm one step closer to that.
Soon. Soon, I'll have my own spawn. But for now the focus shall remain on becoming fit and healthy as possible.
What that guy said.
I am doing a Quest and I am utterly TERRIFIED of posting it before I have every single detail ironed out. And I am not that naive, I know the players will either ignore it or shit on my plans incessantly, I have been DMing for years now, for jesusaurus sake's.
Still... It's if I am scared. It's if I am terrified.
>I do honestly believe that a lot of this woman-hating is a straw boogeyman for people who have a vested interest in women remaining seen as victims of social injustice.
It absolutely is. It's the reason you have fucknuts calling critics of feminist theory, or people mentioning that maybe men have social problems hanging over them too, they get called "woman haters".
No one outright hates women, and when people call you a "woman hater" for criticizing or questioning their ideology, you know they're not interested in reality.
The thing is, even more than a normal rp game, a quest is about writing a story together with a potentially huge amount of people.
What kind of format are you going to use? A simple one with no rolls? Do you have an actual system to use or are you just doing it freestyle and narrative only?
thatout of shape.
I'm just ugly, introverted, and prefer to stay inside which is why I lost all contact with anyone I used to call a friend.
I'm just glad I can draw so I can keep myself alive without having to leave my room.
That's more personal stuff than a collective thing. /tg/ fails at being homely, but we don a serious face when we have to get shit done. That's why I would trust it to rebuild most of society, knowledge wise and structurally speaking.
But building families? Most of us are too deep into the rabbit hole for that.
Also, congrats on having a soulmate that understands your tastes, it's a blessed thing. When you get your little hell spawns take this piece of advice: sleep whenever you can.
I plan on helping my many cousins out with their own hellions. Better than going in unprepared and untested.
As for /tg/ and parenting, I've seen a few anons that talk about having their own kids over the years. Just a few though. Maybe /tg/ will find a bunch of parenting books left untouched by the end of the world?
I will use D&D/D20 system, I plan on fudging it a lot tho. The setting will be somewhere familiar yet unspoken; I want people to feel at home, but I want to keep haters away.
As for the format. Shit, it's my first time, so I hope I am doing this right. I plan on writing all the natural occurrences (day to day stuff) and only check with the players when the character would (I got a little plot for that - he basically hears the voices of /tg/, or a proxy of it).
I know how quests work, for I have seen many, and I know how DMing in a table works, I am veteran of many games, but it's still frightening giving the first step. And since I don't have a timeline I just... keep on writing and making stuff up! I basically have it all on paper:
Locations, important personas, theology, cosmology, geology, history - ancient and recent, physics, metaphysics, and much, much more. I just need to grow the cojones, as my dear friend would put.
Oh, individually? I have met a /tg/ mom before. Her daughter and her still have one of the best Guild Wars RP guild to date.
But as a whole? I don't think we'd be able to gather enough genetic variance to not extinct ourselves in a hundreds years or so.
Now, about the actual chore of raising kids: it is easier and harder for the mother, always. It comes almost instinctively, really, but so does the bad stuff. Nothing aggravates my dear stepmother more than the cry of my little baby sister, so stay sharp. It's really to prepare for what the body can do to your head. Also, before having a kid say goodbye to gaming nights for at least a year. It's harsh.
>ugly, introverted, and prefer to stay inside which is why I lost all contact with anyone I used to call a friend
That's... really sad, mate. I have been there and done that. If you want to hook up another drawfag and share small tips and small talk I can give you some closure.
I was previously living with my aunt, and my cousins would come over almost every day with their kids. After a while my breasts and nipples ended up getting really sore so I decided to check them out for