The UNSC (Pre contact so from 2525ish), the Tau Empire and the

>>43443185
Tau declares war on them instead of the covanet

>>43443185

UNSC kicks the ass of Citadel Races, but gets their ass kicked by the Tau.

It's important to recognize the UNSC really is fucking powerful, but 40k simply operates at a higher level.

>>43443258
>UNSC scouts find a Turian fleet.
>No issues cus UNSC doesn't use relays.
>Humans and Turians are bro tier allies.
>Tau finds human or citadel space starts trying to annex shit.

I wanna see this fight.

>>43443278
The UNSC and the Citadel races have an advantage over the Tau. Territory.

The Tau have 100 worlds. The UNSC alone has 800. If the Citadel and UNSC decide to ally they could have a shot.

>>43443278
Compared to UNSC ships the ME ones are fast as fuck but rely on a preexisting network of relays. gas giants to dump cores at and fuel stations.

The Tau have the slowest ships but they are total monsters compared to the others.

>Tau
>Have 6000 to expand into space
>Only 100 worlds colonized

>Asari
>3000 years after finding some free ftl tech they have 1000 worlds,but need the other Council races to solve their problems and be their shield.

>Humans
>Only been exploring space a few centuries.
>800 colonies, best AIs in the galaxy and can make really good super soldiers.

So Humans are "Gets shit done" the race?

>>43443439

No, it's that UNSC Humanity is one of the coolest visions of our future, barring the attempted genocide, and is surprisingly powerful for what looks like barely post-modern tech.

>>43443185

The UNSC is in deep shit. Simply put, everything they can do the Citadel races can do better.

The big guns on the UNSC ships? Are basically just shitty versions of mass effect tech. Low-C kill weapons are powerful shit, but the Mass Effect ships have that on their TURRETS, where the UNSC has to build the whole ship around a single slow firing version.
The UNSC also lacks shields on their ships until, like, Halo 4.

So the Mass Effect fields will bounce away MAC shots, because its pretty much exactly what they are designed to work against but lower volume of fire. At the same time, the UNSC ships will get rekt by returning fire.

And on the ground, personal mass effect shields are going to give the citadel races a massive advantage against anything the UNSC has that isn't Spartans, and those can be handled by Bionics. Being superstrong armor supersoldier doesn't help you much when you get telekinetically lifted into the air and rendered helpless.

The UNSC's only two real advantages are a fairly dense territory of colonization and the fact that they can slipstream anywhere without using the Relays. Still, I imagine the UNSC as getting its shit pushed in for decades until they broker peace with the Citadel or get reduced to a minor power not worth a seat at the table. No one is going to bother exterminating them fully, but they are going to end up lower on the totem pole than Batarians.

>>43443471
The Council wouldn't bother them unless the UNSC started shit.

Even the whole AI thing would be left to "don't bring them into our territory". The UNSC would be opening relay so no Pissing off the Turians. Hell the Salarians would threaten war with the Turian and Asari at the chance to trade for Non Prothean Ftl, but the UNSC would totally agree to trade it for info on ME tech.

>>43443471
I'd wager UNSC would integrate EZO into their tech fairly quickly. Retrofitting everything and flat out replacing existing materiel would be a difficult undertaking, but I think they have the numbers to hold out in a war of attrition long enough for that to become relevant.

>>43443471 I think with the UNSC could bring more ships to the fight with the way there FTL work and the closeness of the worlds

>>43443534
They could put ezo into they're guns maybe not the ships guns

>>43443534
>>43443554
The UNSC wouldn't fight "fair" either. Even the Covenant hated attacking Human colonies.

>>43443529
*not opening relays

sorry

>>43443471

It's worth mentioning the UNSC Cruisers were the equivalent of dreadnoughts, and the UNSC potentially had more cruisers than the Turians had ships.

So... Reapers really dropped the ball. How would the react to the UNSC and the Tau? How would Javick react to Humans from the UNSC?

>>43443640
Somewhat impressed but still primitive.

>>43443631
The UNSC had a thousand cruisers of varying classes before the war. Unknown amount of Frigates and only a few dozen larger ships if I recall.

>>43443471
>The big guns on the UNSC ships? Are basically just shitty versions of mass effect tech. Low-C kill weapons are powerful shit, but the Mass Effect ships have that on their TURRETS, where the UNSC has to build the whole ship around a single slow firing version.

UNSC ships were built around taking MAC cannon hits, and you're kind of overplaying the firepower of a turret in ME.

The UNSC has a better shot at wiping out the Citadel than you might believe.

>>43443710
I for one agree with you but the UNSC wouldn't want a war. Or at least a major one of that scale. Slipspace drives are cool but the UNSC is limited to 3 to 9 light years a day depending on the ship. Relays would help humanities issues immensely and the other races would have tech Humans would want. The only race that would really freak out about the UNSC is the Quarians. And the UNSC wouldn't care.

>>43443753

Isn't there the risk of cultural assimilation by the Asari? Turning the UNSC into the same-old lapdog they got under their thumb through clever wordplay, legal bindings and a fuckton of interracial sex?

Honestly that's more dangerous than any Turian dreadnought.

>>43443785
depends on the situation.

>>43443785
Not really, UNSC would likely dominate Trade and the Humans aren't reliant on anything the Asari could offer.

They would have no way of even reaching Human worlds.

>>43443840
>They would have no way of even reaching Human worlds.

Give it a couple decades, they'll find a way, especially when everyone's at peace

>UNSC would likely dominate Trade and the Humans aren't reliant on anything the Asari could offer.

How would the UNSC dominate trade? Because they're so big? And I'm sure the Asari would figure out things the UNSC needs.

>>43443869
Relays are the highways but only the UNSC can bypass them. And Even the Alliance dominated trade by being more industrious then the aliens. And the Alliance only stated with 30ish colonies.

>>43443891
The alliance laid claim to a lawless region full of resource rich worlds that they managed to giving them control of resources is useful in galactic trade.

>>43443891
>And the Alliance only stated with 30ish colonies.

Compared to the 800 worlds of the UNSC.

Not to mention the population of the Systems Alliance was 11.6 billion, while the population of the UNSC was around 38 billion.

>>43443940
Anyone think the UNSC population was a bit low?

>>43443985

Giving how 1st world lifestyles tend to reduce fertility rates, I'd say their population was a bit *high.*

>>43444025
Yeah but they had 800 worlds I'm pretty sure it would be higher then what was given.

>>43443914
And the UNSC had over twenty times the planets controlled by the alliance, with a massive advantage in population aswell. The UNSC would have access to all the resources available to the alliance, in much greater quantities than the alliance could ever hope to achieve.

>>43444064
Well I'm not a huge halo buff, but they probably would supplement a lot of labor with robotics, making a lot of their colonies relatively small, but still comfortable for the colonists.

>>43444064

Not all of them would be major population centers, for instance Arcadia only had a population of 2 million while Reach (the largest Human colony) had 700 million.

Actually, I'm not sure Reach is the largest Human colony, since it's mentioned that New Carthage has a huge, exponentially growing population of Finnish colonists, given the naming of their cities and locations.

>>43443322
>The UNSC alone has 800.
Wait, when did the size of UNSC/human space balloon up to such a huge number?

>>43444463
>800 "worlds"
a large majority of them were either terra forming project worlds with only tens of thousands of them or research stations/resource extraction.
in halo lore naturally habitual worlds were fairly rare even with forerunner fuckery in the past. outside of the inner colonies things were very frontier like for the UNSC

>>43443185
Tau kill everyone who does not submit.

>>43443453
>surprisingly powerful for what looks like barely post-modern tech.
>500ish years into the future
>AI that genuinely cares about the continuation of humanity in a non retarded manner (fuck you guardians never happened)
>7.62x51 real fuckin NATO is still the main military rifle round
the futures so bight you gotta wear sunglasses

>>43444810
>7.62x51 real fuckin NATO is still the main military rifle round

Tbh handheld laser/energy weapons are a dumb concept, primarily because of their huge power requirements.

On a larger scale they may work, but for your 0815 infantry soldier the 08/15 machine gun is most likely a better weapon than a fancy rail gun or even worse a laser pistol.

7.62x51 isn't a bad caliber as well, though I doubt it would be still in use in such an advanced setting. Most likely slightly modified or larger rounds would be my guess, based on the improvements of personal/body armor which goes along with the development of incredibly durable materials for space ship construction. I'd wager on 20mm HE/AP/HEAT/whatever rounds or something like the caseless ammounition in a less overengineered system that HK developed for the G11, so either a large OHK round or death by multiple hits with one hitting a vulnerable part of the body armor. Mostly depends on the compensation of recoil I'd guess.
OTT:

WH40k mingles badly with other sci-fi/fantasy settings because GW doesn't has a sense of scale.
Seriously, like none.

cont.

>>43445228

IIRC the Leman Russ has like 50mm of adamantium plating. FFS a world war two tank had more steel plating, e.g. the Panther on the upper glacis. A Sherman tank had 50mm frontal plating, not even considering the late war heavy tank behemoths with up to 180mm (Tiger II turret front on the Henschel turret) or 250mm (IS-4 frontal armor). Even if adamantium is like 100 times more durable than steel it's still dumb, as HEAT would eat through it nonetheless. There's a reason why in every tank composite armor is used to protect against armor piercing munitions.

Ergo the Tau fuck everyones shit up because 'lol space magic' and 'your puny attempts to measure anything are useless, because space magic'.

The Citadel races would shit their collective pants at the thought of unbound space travel, because it nullifies the relay system (speaking in warfare terms, not civilian use), which makes their control of key relays uselesss. The USNC would also most likely have a severe case of admirals having a heart attack at the prospect of fighting a huge ass galaxy full of aliens with a navy that was uncontested for several decades in an all out military conflict. They'd fare better than the Systems Alliance though, through the merit of having a larger population and a larger resource base. So pretty much Mass Effect, with the twist, that the humans get a seat on the council immidiately instead of having to wait for it, just because there are so many and they have really juice slipspace tech. Also they'd be allowed to keep their AI's I think, because they are technically human brains in a PC (iirc every AI in Halo is a specific humans brain modeled inside a blue box) and not programmed from the ground up like the Geth as a truly synthetic concioussness.

>>43444810

Personally I like how people feel like people in Halo, rather than oddly dressed Mac users in ME or fleshy robots in Star Trek.

While the three parties half-heartedly wave sabers around in their respective bureaucratic quagmires, the average folk get along decently well.

Humans are ascendant, stagnant asari cultural hegemony is fracturing, Client races are fleeing to the Tau and Human spheres (turians with humans, salarians more with the tau), the asari themselves have dug in their heels to stare down their inevitable irrelevance.

But humans are on top, with slipspace and safe AI.

Most importantly, somewhere, there is a smuggler crew consisting of a tau, an asari, and a human in body paint. They shall be the Blue Man Crew.

One thing should be noted. Mass Effect has two forms of FTL.

Slipspace is significantly slower than either of them. Pre-Covenant UNSC slipspace drives are able to travel at around 2.6 light years a day, while Mass Effect's Citadel Starships have been calculated at around 15 light years per day.

Slipspace is also notoriously inaccurate, can't be initiated close to a gravity well, and ships are known to flat out disappear in it and never be heard from again.

Meanwhile, Mass Effect FTL is pinpoint accurate, faster, safer, can be initiated regardless of how close to a gravity well you are, and, like all Mass Effect tech, is generally better than UNSC technology.

In a straight-up confrontation, the UNSC would be as hopelessly outclassed by the Turians as they were by the Covenant.

>>43447022
Just- no.

>>43447085
Why not? The main advantages the Covenant had over the UNSC were better FTL, better weapons, and shields on their ships. All of which the Turians have, not in the same way, but their stuff is all definitely better.

>>43447022
Keep in mind that ME standard FTL burns a lot of fuel. Going by ME2 and 3, you can only generally travel a few star systems without resupply before you run out. The UNSC doesn't seem to have that problem.

>>43447106
Mass effect FTL outside of relays is pretty bad and there's no way the relays reach all the UNSC colonies.

>>43447117
For a tiny frigate, yeah, but a Cruiser, Dreadnought, or Carrier has plenty of space to load extra fuel.

Let's compare main guns, though. The UNSC standard MAC has a rated impact energy of just under 65 kilotons, compared to the 38 kilotons of an equivalent weapon from Mass Effect.

However, the UNSC guns take almost forever to charge. The Destroyer Iroquois packed two of those MAC guns, but took three minutes to charge them up. Even staggering them to fire one shot every ninety seconds, the Mass Effect counterpart fires every five seconds. And unlike the Turians or the Covenant, the UNSC ships don't have the shields to soak that kind of fire.

>>43447266
Let's not forget the cyber warfare that is evident in the ME universe. They're used to it as a standard part of warfare, and AI are out of the question. USNC has friendly AI available and would wreak havoc on alliance networks. They may not be able to operate at full capacity.

>>43447266
Don't UNSC ships generally engage at much further ranges though? Plus I thought there was some autism math that had been done showing that MAC guns would likely punch through kinetic barriers in one hit and probably OHKO ME ships.

Either way it's pretty much the same odds as fighting the Covenant.

>>43447374
*citadel

>>43447377
I think UNSC MAC rounds are meant for piercing while Mass Effect rounds spread out the impact.

>>43447377
They would, because ME ships rely more on shields, UNSC makes liberal use of human tactics (see ranged combat) and build their ships to specifically withstand MAC rounds. Also, UNSC ships have archer missile pods.

>>43447377
Most combat in Mass Effect happens at close ranges because the defender has to protect something(either a critical Mass Effect Relay or a planet) otherwise they can just go to FTL to avoid action. Citadel ships are capable of engaging far, far beyond visual range though, because sometimes it's convenient to sit far away from your target and bombard them from a distance.

>>43447374
Shipboard AIs don't usually do much in the way of electronic warfare: Cortana was an exception, because she was specifically designed as a hacking and infiltration AI for the Spartans' mission to capture a Prophet. The Pillar of Autumn actually had a backup AI, Wellesley, whose role was purely military.

>>43447442
>and build their ships to specifically withstand MAC rounds
[Citation needed]
In Fall of Reach, the humans, a collection of members of the Navy and Spartans, were astonished that a Covenant ship hadn't been annihilated by a single MAC shot. Naturally, they must've assumed it would be because a UNSC ship would have been.

>>43447473
I think they were more surprised that it didn't cause any noticeable damage.

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>>43443185
mass effect and halo operate on the assumption that small groups of heroic individuals can and do change the tide of wars, so the main question there is spartans vs spectres.

since 40k (outside of space marines, which tau don't have) is more about grinding, hopeless war, they probably won't fare well against the super-heroes of the other factions.

>>43447509
>“MAC at one hundred percent,” the weapons officer shouted. “Ready to fire!”

>“Fire!” Captain Wallace ordered.

>The lights on the bridge dimmed and the Commonwealth shuddered. The MAC bolt launched through space—a red-hot metal slug moving at thirty thousand meters per second. The Covenant ship’s engines flared to life and the ship veered away——Too late. The heavy round closed and slammed into the target’s prow.

>The Covenant ship reeled backward through space. Its energy shields shimmered and glowed
lightning-bright … then flickered, dimmed, and went out.

>The bridge crew let out a victory cheer.

>Except Dr. Halsey. John watched the view screen as she adjusted the camera controls and zoomed
in on the Covenant ship.The vessel’s erratic spinning slowed and it came to a stop. The ship’s nose was crumpled and atmosphere vented into vacuum. Tiny fires flickered inside. The ship slowly came about and started back toward them—gaining speed.

>“It should have been destroyed,” she whispered."

Fall of Reach, Revised Edition, page 75

>>43447570
Eh, the tau actually understand infiltration and "special" characters better than most other 40k factions.

>>43447597
Oh, then I'm just retarded. Don't mind me.

>>43447619
So yeah, a 65 kiloton strike is supposed to be enough to kill any UNSC ship, whether it comes from MAC or tactical nuke. With the Citadel ships firing 38 kiloton rounds every five seconds, and at a much higher velocity(so harder to dodge) a citadel fleet would make short work of a UNSC fleet.

>>43447661
Mind you, that's pre-war UNSC. Pre and post war are hugely differing things. MACs weren't really even in production much pre-war.

Although, every UNSC ship just about carries a MAC, along with this there's varying charge timers for all of them. Not to mention ships which fire a barrage and the stationary defenses which are a whole differing level of firepower.

Along with this, what happens if the UNSC starts destroying the relays? It's entirely possible to do so after all>>43447619

>>43444757
>a large majority of them were either terraforming project worlds with only tens of thousands of them or research stations/resource extraction.
That... actually makes a lot of sense.

>>43447848
OP specified pre-contact from 2525ish. The stationary defenses seen in Fall of Reach and Halo 2 flat out didn't exist at that point. Also, the numbers on those stationary defenses are insane and basically impossible. The power behind the microwave beam they use to transmit that power from the planet to the platforms would actually be enough to melt the platforms. At the same time, that microwave power transmission beam would be a much more powerful weapon than the ODPs themselves, just because you skip out on several inefficient steps of conversion.

It's most useful to assume that the figures given include a typo, and the ODPs fire their shells at .4% lightspeed instead of 4% lightspeed. At that point, the figures become sane.

>>43447915
This is true in Mass Effect as well.

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>>43447848
You're focused too much on guns and forgetting the real primary armament of UNSC ships: Missiles. Even the smallest frigates were armed with 50 pods with 30 missiles each, post-refit the Pillar of Autumn had 300 pods of 26 missiles. Plus Shiva and Hyperion nuclear missiles.

The main tactic of the UNSC was to overwhelm Covenant shields with missiles, then finish the ship with a MAC strike. Citadel races GARDIAN point-defenses tend to get overwhelmed by fighter squadrons. The sheer number of missiles a UNSC fleet could put out would overload them easily.

>>43447964
Missiles have limited range, and Citadel ships will be faster thanks to their effective lower mass. This will allow them to permanently stay at standoff distance and blast the UNSC ships with their guns without ever entering play of their Archer missiles.

Now, the UNSC circa 2558 has pinpoint-accurate slipspace jumps, much better MACs, shields, and all sorts of other technical advances. They're on roughly an even footing with the Turians.

>>43448010
But all of the combat we ever see with the Citadel races is easily within missile distance, if we're going with "They do the best thing they can possible" then why wouldn't the UNSC simply slipspace a bunch of Pillars of Autumns to go and self-destruct right in the middle of the enemy relays? Suddenly all of that efficient FTL goes away, never ever coming back. There's no supply lines for fuel and along with this everything will be in chaos on the Citadel side, sudden strikes with the entire UNSC fleet would quickly put an end to the entire war

>>43448155
Because the UNSC would want the relays too, since they're still much much faster than even postwar slipspace.

>>43448155
>But all of the combat we ever see with the Citadel races is easily within missile distance
None of the fighting in the Mass Effect series is normal. It all takes place at knife-fight distances for well justified reasons.

>>43447915
bungie and the guys who wrote the books that made up the lore of the halo universe did a pretty good job of painting a setting that made sense.
then 343 shit all over it and set it on fire.

>>43448206
>None of the fighting in the Mass Effect series is normal
Then why would it suddenly become "normal" when the UNSC is fighting exactly?

>Because the UNSC would want the relays too, since they're still much much faster than even postwar slipspace
The UNSC would want Covenant super cruisers too, but they're not fucking dumb enough to go and try and capture one of those

>>43448206
>Because the UNSC would want the relays too
The UNSC wanting something has never stopped them before from blowing up said thing to deny the Covies resources/victory.

>>43448247
343's actually been doing a pretty good job of clearing up the dumb shit that was blatantly there to justify a video game.

Example: Covenant belief in the Great Jounrey

Under Bungie: "The Forerunners used these rings, and we're pretty sure they took them somewhere awesome and we're gonna do the same thing, but we also go there if we die."

Doesn't make any sense and just justifies the Covenant trying to activate the Rings in 2 and 3

Under 343: The Forerunners had a galaxy-spanning pseudo-Internet called the Domain. Forerunners could access it at any time, and when the Forerunners died, a portion of their essence was placed in the Domain, where it would sort of live forever.

The Covenant's beliefs about the Great Journey are a misinterpretation of the Domain as a physical place rather than an electronic thing. This makes much more sense and is honestly a lot more believable than the lack of any real explanation that Bungie provided.

>>43448319
I should clarify: None of the onscreen fighting in Mass Effect is normal for Mass Effect. Try reading the Codexes that are in the game; they have extensive descriptions of normal space combat.

>>43448319
>>43448325
This.The UNSC would break them, drag them to some god forsaken asteroid belt, then reverse engineer the shit out of them.
Or get close enough to a citadel comm buoy to let an AI hunt down as much information about Eezo based technology as possible.

>>43445228
>>43445247
>Gauss guns on warthogs
>prototype laser weapons
>that sexy caseless suppressed SMG the ODST's used
>primary sidearm for their military firing a 12.7x40mm semi-armor piercing explosive round out of a handgun that weighs almost seven fucking pounds when loaded
the UNSC had their share of fancy toys but I loved the design of them because they all looked purposely overbuilt so even the dumbest boot couldn't break them

>>43443185
They probably get on really well. UNSC meets the Citadel and gets on well with everyone, then they probably bump into the Tau and everyone gets along splendidly.

>>43448504
The tau would actually not be very well liked it s mentioned on another site they would be the villains in any other setting but 40k is just so bad that they are considered good. they come of as very communist utilitarian and most people wouldn't like that.

>>43448490
12.7x40 SAPHE sounds neat, but you can't get enough HE into the bullet to make it worthwhile.

>>43448504
Until UNSC erupts into a planetside 2 style civil war, with the side that supports tau being vanu, NC being the side that wants to stay isolated, and Terran being the side that wants to ally with the citadel. And honestly, I can't see the tau joining the citadel races as just another member, they would probably try to become the leader of all the races(see: Greater Good communist overlords).

>>43448543
Even excluding the 343 stuff, the UNSC is pretty explicitly authoritarian, if not outright fascist.

>>43448585
WIth the genocidal war the military had to take emergency measures so it does come off as something like that.

>>43448622
Pre-Halo they're waging a brutal pacification campaign against the colonies and kidnapping children for human experimentation.

>>43448622
the UEG, ONI, and the UNSC were dicks well before the covenant showed up. you can't violently suppress colonies after you stonewall diplomatic means or kidnap children from their homes to turn them into black ops supersoliders or maintain a total choke hold on mass media on your inner colonies without looking like authoritarian assholes

UNSC can run faster than all the other races so they only need to come out of nowhere with over whelming force, steal tech and then fall back.

I imagine that given decades they could reverse engineer most of it with the Tau not able to close the distance in that time and the citidel races only being strong near relays and no where else.

UNSC picks where the fights happen and takes a slow victory through attrition and stealing tech. Of course the other races could always capture a UNSC ship and reverse engineer their drives.

Does anyone think the UNSC has gotten VERY grimdark as of late. I mean ONI in my opinion is worse then the inquisition because the inquisition has the excuse of existing the 40k galaxy where chaos is a thing.

>>43448727
>>43448724
>>43448671
>>43448585
WOW i got super-ninjaed

>>43448671
Yeah that kidnaping stuff was pretty messed up honestly the problem was oni acted without any accountability so they just went around doing whatever the fuck they wanted and the UNSC tried to keep things from falling apart until it turn into the cluster fuck that is the insurrection.

>>43448762
Exactly, the SPARTANII program wasn't really something the UNSC as a whole was aware of. And I'm pretty sure Dr. Halsey is now considered a criminal for her involvement with the Spartan II program in most regards.

>>43448762
and then Hunt The Truth happened and ONI became Big Brother full stop.

>>43448794
Isnt she being framed for that?

>>43447570
>What are
Crisis Suits
>for 4000 Tau Ration Tokens

>>43448794
Yeah in the Kilo-Five trilogy ONI threw Halsey under the bus after they got her, Mendez, and the Spartans out of Onyx's shield world

>>43448727
The problem is that the Tau travel in roughly the same way that the UNSC do, completely unworkable fluff about the Tau not having FTL travel aside. The real question is if the UNSC can reverse engineer faster than the Tau. Granted battles get a little wonky as there are no hard numbers on Tau space fleet abilities and the Tau outclass the UNSC on the ground.

>>43448759
ONI is the worst of the bunch they are pretty much every modern day shady intelligence organization rolled into one then jacked up on steroids and meth. they don't shy away from kidnapping, torture, murder and if I remember right several cases of enacting communication blackouts concerning imminent covenant attacks on UNSC colony worlds

>>43448942
UNSC have a much larger empire. For that reason I believe that will reverse engineer and manufacture faster.

I also think the faster space travel will mean the UNSC will actually win initial conflicts. Maybe the UNCS cant fight Tua ships effectively but they can surely deploy relativistic kill vehicles against the far less numerous Tau and deliver them faster.

>>43449025
Plus, tau may be more advanced when it comes to ground weaponry, but just imagine a squad of ODSTs punching into a Tau ship with shotguns/SMGs, vs the air caste it would be a fucking sluaghter.

>>43449113
Boarding actions would never actually happen in space. A ship would need to be completely crippled and at that point you just tow it home and vent the atmosphere.

>>43449139
The covanent atleast had the ability to board in space. And used it quite liberally. I just assume that in the halo universe in general, space boarding is a thing that happens.

>>43449168
It does, in the start of Halo 3: ODST you are about to do just that, but the cruiser jumps away before you land on it.

>>43449168
I dont know the halo universe very well. I am just pretty sure the huge empire with the fastest ships cant lose this.

>>43449202
Exactly.

>>43446305

/underrated post

>>43449113
That's really no different than Imperial Naval Armsmen which the Tau fight all the time.

Fighting the Tau fleet has the same problem as fighting the Covenant, the UNSC has to outnumber the Tau by a large margin to win at the cost of large numbers of casualties. Unlike the Covenant, the Tau are perfectly willing to adapt their strategies, tactics, ships, and equipment to fight the UNSC.

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>>43446305
Yes

>>43449473
>That's really no different than Imperial Naval Armsmen which the Tau fight all the time.
It's more like lesser Space Marines in drop pods, actually.

>>43449291

>>43446305

I think I'll continue this line of thought.

The UNSC / UEG, being a military heavy, borderline fascist government, is swift to make allies with the Turians - they share the same hobbies. With the turians come the volus, giving the UNSC access to significant banking power.

The Tau philosophy of the Greater Good catches on with the salarians (salarian matriarchs are particularly fond as, like the ethereals, the GG keeps them in power) and with the hanar (because those stupid space jellyfish love that sort of bullshit). With the hanar go the drell, but they're such a small minority it doesn't even matter.

I will presume the the Tau are by their lonesome, without their kroot and vespid auxilliaries, or at the very least without stable populations of these species.

With the military and economic arms of Citadel space joining other sides, the asari are left alone with a smattering of minor races. Crippling economic recession hits citadel space, accompanied by massive population migration towards the UNSC's many ripe-for-colonization worlds. With a gutted economy, crippled military, and low birth rates, the asari are doomed. Nationalist (speciesist? planetist? asari cerberus) organizations form, reactionary ideologues push the zeitgeist towards isolation and the asari retreat to their own worlds. The Citadel remains theirs, but it has been rendered little more than a transgalactic truck stop.

Of course, this leaves is the Innies. UNSC insurrectionists, not wanting to trade one Big Brother for another, go out into the shady reaches of space, and loose confederations form between insurrectionist humans, vorcha, krogan, batarian splinter groups, tau enclavers, and other scum and villainy as needed.

Finally, we are left with the people who just want to be alone. Quiet worlds, far from the main relay trade lanes by way of slipspace drives, crop up - allied with no one but themselves. A bit of fresh air from the choking militarism of the rest of the galaxy.

>>43450055
Just to help push this thought line even further, what happens when the reapers show up?

>>43450199

Personally, I wouldn't even throw them in.

But, with widespread slipspace drive and the Citadel reduced to a truck stop, the reapers lose both their surprise coup and their convenient "just harvest everything by the relays" shtick. It becomes something of a bug hunt, picking off reapers as they show up. Which I think the UNSC would be pretty good at, since all of their practice is at sniping off superior targets while making sure they have difficulty finding your strongholds.

It's like guerrilla warfare, except with overwhelming firepower.

>>43450199
Doesn't the UNSC build on Reaper scale?

>>43450304
Well the infinity is something like 7 miles long and was in construction before 2550 so I guess they'd atleast have the capability to.

>>43450055
Even considering that the various citadel races would likely develop good relations with one of the newcomer-races, I don't really think they would abandon their power in the citadel council.

>>43450922
But with the tau only paying lip service to it, and the UNSC barely paying attention to it the question is how long will the council remain relevant as the galactic U.N.

>>43451003
I would wager it would be pretty important, especially from the get-go.
Both newcomer races would be presented with effectively the whole rest of the galaxy under one banner, and to not try to get in on that would be foolish.
Either new race would be powerful enough to force their way into a seat on the council unless they were at war right off the bat, and then why would you want it dismantled?
Can you imagine if, say, Russia were to just give up its veto power in the security council?

>>43451130
yeah that makes sense so we would see less of a splinter death of the council and more it splitting itself along faction lines of
the expansionist Tau
the militant UNSC
and the Asari and their allies trying to keep everything going like it was before

Are we talking Tau pre Damocles crusade or post, because this makes a massive difference, Current Tau 4th sphere expansion are just gonna steam roll the UNSC and the Council in terms of angry shooting its just no contest.

>>43452402
let's presume pre-Damocles crusade same as the UNSC stands from before first contact with the Covenant.

>UNSC
>In the middle of a "civil war" where their Answer to the Innies was massively genetically modified(to the point of being illegal in Citadel Space) soldiers.
>This plan didn't work too well, so they redid it but with Children who had specific genetic markers
>Also A.I.

I think the Council races would pitch a fit, it would not be peaceful like some people think.

Let's not get into the Batarians fucking over ALL diplomacy attempts by trying to Enslave Spartans or Etherials.

>>43453598
Spartans are super top secret and all UNSC would say about them if pressed is that they are a "Special" Special ops unit, alluded to be the UNSC equivalent to the Spectres.

And the Innies I actually have little clue.

>>43454428
Until The Shadow Broker buys and then sells info on the Spartan Project to someone

>>43454462
Nah
Shadow broker is a bitch ass nigga who gets capped easily

Oni would probably off him and replace him in secret, to be honest.

>>43454462
Yeah but all that would really happen are some sanctions the UNSC can muscle straight past.
Though the council putting a blind eye towards the Batarians piracy would do some damage though how much depends on how long the UNSC is willing to lie down and take it.

>>43450555
It costed like 25-50% of the UNSC total budget if I remember correctly about some Top brass bitching.

>>43454490
That is a scary thought.

The UNSC is split into civil war over which blue waifus are best.

How many spartan II's are operational? Is Chief there? Because in first contact the spartans would have probably stomped the turians into the ground planetside.

You forgot 2 things about this. Those 38 kiloton cannons aren't standard on every ship only big dreadnaughts have them which there is only like 15 of. Two, it depends on the MAC cannon, and if the UNSC has access to super MAC's. If it is early then they may have one or two, but if they have a few those would make surviving a reaper invasion pretty doable.

>>43444810
>(fuck you guardians never happened)
I'm convinced the forerunner domain has basically jacked cortana and she's just furthering the didact's agenda, or this it's just some post rampancy trauma that made her go full retard. I can't see her willingly being that stupid. We'll just have to wait for the sequel.

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>>43457188
dubs confirm.

the correct answer is N'avi

>>43457536
All of them. Spartan II's were fielded 2525.

>>43457536
100%. Also i do not believe they had done the augmentations on them yet so even the ones that wash out due to medical complications would still be there

>>43457688
>>43457824
>>43457536
Technically None of Them

They aren't Ready for operation yet, but they will be shortly.

>>43457685
They are not in this crossover.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8474693/1/Alternate-Past-Uncertain-Future-Mk-II

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9751536/1/The-Infinity-Effect

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/3678670/1/Chains-of-the-Kindred

>>43447570
Eh, Spectres aren't soldiers... Normally. They're basically police officers and investigators with virtually no oversight or accountability.

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>>43457688
>>43457824
>>43457909
I was talking about how many survived their augmentations. Because if all 75 survived, I would kind of feel bad for the council races. Even if they had the krogan to help them.

>>43458720
Bonus: The UNSC get Captain Titus due to warp fuckery.

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>>43458769
Nah I don't think they would need it. Their ships are powerful enough and large enough to beat the council races in space, and groundside the spartans would pretty much cream the aliens. I think the only true problem would be the tau. I don't know much about them but I know anything from warhammer 40k is overpowered.

>>43458720
I thought Hundreds were taken, and 75 survived the augmentations

>>43458600
Man, these are fucking awful.

>>43458797
No only 75 had the approval for funding. Then only 30-40 survived the augmentations, or didn't get crippled. So the spartans were never a numerous special forces, but for only having 30-40 members they managed to win almost every groundside engagement for the UNSC, and rack up a kill count higher then all 3 of the elite ODST divisions. That's why in the first halo Chief and the crew did so well. It's just the UNSC always lost in space. Now can someone tell me about the tau?

>>43458846
Tau are Similar to UNSC
Shitty in space, wreck your face in on the ground

>>43443439
Tau have better tech though, and the reason why they haven't conquered further is because they can't use warp drives without vanishing.

>>43445247
Anon, you don't know what adamantium is clearly. Firstly it's not used on Leman Ruses, Plasteel is, and both plasteel and adamantium can laugh off gigajoules of energy. They literally get shot with shit hotter than a solar flare and come off laughing.

>>43443439
Do Asari even need supersoldiers?

Every single one of them is a potentially powerful telekinetic. IIRC their homeworld was the hardest for the Reapers to occupy because a biotic population is a nightmare to fight.

>>43458965
well the question that comes is does Bionics effect UNSC from another place and IF the unsc has always been here. They should have there own too counter the Asari.

>>43454428
>Blue Team gains Spectre status

>>43459119
>The Chief is the First Human Spectre
I could go with this.

>>43459127
Nahh, just replace Javik in ME3 with the Chief. His constant disgust for all the inter-crewmember relationships would be hilarious. Also his rising need for murder whenever a Quarian threatens to decommission Cortana.

>>43459154
Except The Chief is nothing like Javik. He's way more Stoic, and doesn't seem to hold Disgust for people or their relationships.

Though the need to murder Quarians for threatening Cortana would be a thing.

Is chief, and all other spartans, autistic?

>>43459191
They were raised of Childhood to be Super Soldiers with no one for companionship but each other, some assholes in ONI, and Dr.Halsley.

They aren't Autistic, but they are fucked in the head due to their childhood. But, like most child soldiers, they are capable of acting like "normal people" with each other, and in their normal environment.

>>43459178
No, he's actually quite similar, he's just less likely to walk into a room, look around and declare everyone to be disgusting lower-life forms. In the books he finds the way that normal people live to be disordered, confusing and ill-disciplined, and considers the way he and his Spartans live (read: a state of constant battle readiness) to be far more appropriate.
>>43459191
Depends on the Spartan. Most have difficulty communicating emotion without using hand signals (e.g. closed thumb and forefinger swept across the bottom of the helmet to indicate a smile) and are absolutely incapable of any kind of emotional self-awareness due to their upbringing. There are exceptions, notably that one female Spartan that left the program to raise a family, and Frederick to a certain extent. But that's why Fred is the Spartan's 'face' to normal people, he's the only one that can interact in a casual setting without reverting to mr. robot military man like Chief does.

>>43459154
>Also his rising need for murder whenever a Quarian threatens to decommission Cortana.

Not like he needs to worry about that anymore.

>>43459226
>There are exceptions

And then you went on to forget about listing Kurt, who was by and large the friendliest and most extroverted Spartan there ever was.

>>43459319
Awwww fuck, I forgot Kurt. Dude had a good end.

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>>43459191
They're not autistic, it's just the conditioning and shit they've seen over the years has taken its toll. What we've seen from Halsey's scouting of John is that most had relatively normal childhoods before being snatch up, but again, metal conditioning for battle and little to no interaction with anyone but other Spartans and military personal trained only to turn them into killing machines took its toll on them.

>>43459336
Favourite Spartan death, and favourite Spartan alongside Johnson.

>>43459351
>metal conditioning

What kind of music do you think Spartans would listen to?

>>43459209
>>43459226
>>43459351
So basically yes autism.

>>43459362
Neutral milk hotel.

>>43459362
https://youtu.be/K9JTayC7vJI

So, UNSC wins?

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>>43443471
>Mass Effect Dreadnoughts range from 800 meters to one kilometer long, with a main gun of commensurate length. An 800-meter mass accelerator is capable of accelerating one twenty-kilogram slug to a velocity of 4025 km/s (1.3% the speed of light) every two seconds.
>UNSC Orbital Defense Platforms fire a 3,000-ton slug at four-hundredths, or 4% of, the speed of light, around 12,000 kilometers per second.

Mhmm, I see your point. The UNSC defense stations being able to fire slugs at twice the velocity and at over 100,000 times the weight means there's absolutely no way dreadnoughts could lose.

For reference, Mass Effect dreadnoughts "Each slug has the kinetic energy of about 38 kilotons of TNT, about two and a half times the energy released by the fission weapon that destroyed Hiroshima." versus, for the Station MAC "each shot produces 51553834.34 Kilotons of force"

>>43460506
Those platforms also don't exist in OP's scenario because they hadn't even thought about building them yet.

The UNSC would also become bros with the Council anyway because they don't use relays. which completely averts the First Contact War.

>>43460538
Correct, but I felt obliged to make the autistic math post as it was mentioned earlier, so that people could get a real good idea of just how bad some people are at math and numbers.

Or alternatively how overpowered UNSC ships and stations are, but let's not kid ourselves here.

And yes, the UNSC would presumably be fine with the council despite its fascist tendencies and so on. I'm specifically responding to the post that somehow presumes the citadel could get its collective shit together long enough to wage war against humanity, where if mass effect is any indication the citadel leadership is a complete bunch of drooling retards mired in bureaucracy and drowning in incompetence.

>>43460550
>where if mass effect is any indication the citadel leadership is a complete bunch of drooling retards mired in bureaucracy and drowning in incompetence.
The Council is a bit dumb, yeah. But the actual leadership of each of the races are shown to be pretty damn competent, especially the Turians when it's time to shoot a motherfucker in the face. They also have a whole bunch of 'client' races that they can drag along with them to war a la Britain in WWI/WWII.

>>43447936
>The stationary defenses seen in Fall of Reach and Halo 2 flat out didn't exist at that point.
they do though in Fall of Reach

>>43460585
My point is the assumption that the Citadel would be willing to just all out assault the UNSC out of nowhere just because is absolutely retarded when they can barely function to work together under the threat of certain death.

The idea that the UNSC would somehow gets its shit kicked in constantly until 'brokering peace' is utterly, utterly fucking retarded, because peace what they wanted at first in their universe - I seriously fucking doubt the entire citadel would try and attack them, or vice versa. At most they'd piss off a single race and then the rest of the citadel would be all 'muh bureacracy' and unwillingness to fight and it'd all be over.

None of this "WELL THE CITADEL ATTACKS COLLECTIVELY, UNSC SCREWED." nonsense

Neither side would really be all that willing to fight each other. What would be the point? The military UNSC doesn't have enough to gain, and the Citadel is, well, the Citadel. Their response to new species isn't typically exterminate.

>>43460719
The only Council race I see having issues with the UNSC are the Asari, and that would mostly be over the UNSC not playing along with their cultural victory plans.

>>43460719
If there was a war at all, I would see it as the Citadel+UNSC versus the Tau.
Having two hegemonies would almost necessitate a cold war between them, and I see the UNSC being a bit more buddy-buddy with the Citadel because they'd very likely be a council race, rather than a client people in the Tau

>>43443439
Tau have been a space faring civilisation for a very short time and unlike the UNSC upon first attempting to colonise other worlds have pretty much met constant resistance from a variety of super races

>>43447570
Space marines >>> Spartans
Crisis Suits > Space marines

>>43464513
But Spartans can melee.

>>43464810
Have I missed a meme?

>>43464833
I think he might be referencing the fact that in-game a Melee hit one-shits anything without a shield, and two shots guys with shields.

Excluding bosses or "specialty enemies" like Knights

>>43443278
The Tau actually operate on a more realistic level compared to these other franchises as opposed to the other 40k factions. Especially in space.

My major complaint is that all three of these franchises forgot that BVR exists in atmosphere, so their jets would get smashed by F-15s today.

>>43459226
>that one female Spartan that left the program to raise a family
Spartan uber babies when?

>>43465079
ONI is asking the same question, and spying on her to see if it works.

If it does you can bet they'll be trying to get the remaining Spartans to fuck

>>43443640
He'd be more impressed because UNSC tech isn't based on his own like all of the modern races in Mass Effect.

He'd still see them as primitive, but they got there on their own.

>>43443710
This. Their ships would handle the beating well enough, and when combined with >>43443631 pointing out that the UNSC has a major advantage in numbers and weight on a ship-to-ship basis, they'd do better than a ME fan would originally think.

There's the issue on the ground that the UNSC has not been provided with all the elements of a modern army by their franchise creators, so there are things that even our modern day army could use to trash them. But that's the case with Mass Effect as well, so the creators for both just aren't too military-minded.

Granted, I'm more of a Star Wars fan than any of these. Halo comes close behind. But Star Wars wouldn't quite fit in with a lot of the stuff going on in this thread.

>>43464883
A while back /tg/ calculated that Spartans (and Elites for that matter) are more than strong enough to punch through titanium. So I can easily see them instakilling any Covenant races by sucker punching them from behind, with the possible exception of Hunters.

But if they tried that against a Space Marine it would just *CLANG* off his backpack and he would be pissed that you scuffed his paint.

>>43444125
This is the case, at least on garden worlds like Harvest. The majority of their labor on the planet was drones maintained by based AI Mack.

>>43460506

You are missing the point. The Super-MAC is a bigger hit, bit even in it own universe it took multiple MAC shots to kill covenant ships because the first hit or two would get eaten by Shields. Mass Effect ships have shields specifically designed for handling relativistic ammo, so their Shields are going to be able to handle a MAC or two as well before going down.

Meanwhile, the MAC takes minutes between volleys, and the Mass Effect ships can fire their version of the gun every two seconds. It may 'only' hit with the force of an atomic blast, but that's still enough to fuck up a UNSC ship, as shown by the fact that nuclear weapons are still ship killers in Halo if you can actually get them to land a hit.

The UNSC vs Mass effect fight iss going to be like a dude with a Revolutionary War cannon vs an APC with a machine gun turret on it. The cannon does more damage on a hit, but the APC can probably survive a shot and has a much faster rate of fire with a weapon that kills you dead just fine, making the fact that you do overkill kind of pointless.

>>43448731
343i took the implied degrees of fascism going on with the UNSC and turned it into a full-blown dystopia.

>>43443710
>UNSC ships were built around taking MAC cannon hits

They weren't, actually. MAC cannons were always considered one-hit-ship-killers up until the Covenant appeared and demonstrated that energy fields could absorb such blows.

UNSC ships get fucked when hit by that kind of projectile. Or most projectiles, actually - they're kinda glass canons compared to the ships they were fighting.

Meanwhile, the Covenant are fighting the Combined Army.

>>43466105
That last part's not quite true. We don't know how they react to missile hits, and the early books go out of their way to show that the Archer is generally considered to be the primarily-used combat arm of a ship. MAC rounds are for long-range gunnery and for adding an occasional hammer-blow to an enemy ship.

>>43466253

Nah. Covie energy shields were such that most weapons were useless against them. Fleet battles required 3 to 1 odds in UNSC favor to have even odds of victory, because it took multiple MAC hits in succession to kill a Covie ship. If the Covenant took out one of the UNSC ships early before its shields went down, the remaining UNSC ships were basically already dead.

MACs were the ONLY thing keeping the UNSC in the game against the Covenant, and they still lost most fleet battles.

>>43466354
I'm talking about how the UNSC ships were built to handle damage from their own weapons. Remember, these humans are supposed to be pre-Covenant contact.

>>43466450
They kind of weren't though. The UNSC policy re: innies was "hit them before they hit you."

>>43466253
>>43466450
UNSC combat doctrine was to shoot first and destroy or disable their target before getting shot yourself. Their ships were not durable.

Humans were amazed when they first saw a Covenant ship tank a MAC shot. They were used to the idea that getting hit by one of those was an immediate death sentence.

They'd be really poorly suited to fighting Citadel ships that are designed to take tons of near-relativistic hits delivered the similarly to MAC cannot shots. Especially when one considers that not all MAC cannons were created equal - not every UNSC ship was toting a railgun to match those featured on the defense platforms around Earth.

>>43466897
Slight correction: There's a grand total of 1 ship ever that's had a Defensive platform-class Supermac mounted on it.

>>43466897

Indeed, and Mass Effect ships are firing their shit at a much faster rate. It will be like fighting covenant with slightly weaker defenses, but able to fire their weapons at a much faster rate. Covenant Plasma torpedos had a firing time only slightly faster than the MAC. Mass effect guns fire blindingly fast in comparison.

No joke, the Normandy by itself should be able to take on three or four UNSC ships without breaking a sweat. Superior speed, superior defense, sufficient offense. At that point, the stealth capabilities on top of all that make it downright unfair.

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>>43466135
You know, this is almost an Orks vs Orks scenario.

Whoever wins comes out bigger and stronger due to their mutual habit of absorbing defeated species. Though I'd imagine the Prophets, Brutes and Grunts would be found useless and pulped for processing power.

Sangheili in Sogarat armor, tho...

>>43466897
The Covenant ship that the UNSC Commonwealth fought was smaller than a UNSC corvette. They were used to the idea that something that small was easy prey for a MAC, not that getting hit by a MAC was always a kill.

>>43466994
The Normandy wouldn't exist in this scenario, as it was a joint Human-Turian ship. The UNSC however would have it's Prowlers laying nuclear mines all over Relays.

Just a point. Even if the UNSC fares just as badly in Space against the Council as they did against the Covenant, they would still be in a MUCH better state.

Because the UNSC is damn effective on the ground, and The Council isn't willing to glass planets like The Covenant was.

>>43467295
It should also be mentioned that the Covenant Navy vastly outnumbered the UNSC. In this hypothetical war against the Citadel, the numbers would be more even, with the UNSC probably outnumbering the Citadel forces.

Noble 6 proceeds to destroy an entire stationed army of Tau, and their only chance of defeating him is to nuke him from orbit. Except more spartans are around, so he probably actually gets an evac. Possibly on one of those fighter jets.

>>43467295

UNSC on the ground will actually fare even worse against the Citadel than they did against the Covenant. Most Covenant troops didn't have shields, with Elites being the exception and elites would tear through non-Spartans like a knight through butter because of it.

In Mass Effect, everyone and their mother has personal shields. And then you have the specialty powers like Bionics tossing your troops around like ragdolls or deploying barriers, techies spamming expendable holodrones to seek and destroy, or Krogans just being fucking Krogans.

Even Spartans are going to have a hard time against Citadel races once all the crazy powers get factored in. Like, whats a Spartan supposed to do if an Engineer with an omnitool hacks their armor from halfway across the battlefield? Most MJOLNIR armor wasn't packing Cortana in the passenger seat.

>>43467480
>disable all wireless capabilities of the suit before battle
>no connection to the suit renders it unhackable without physical uplink
Problem solved very easily my man

>>43465411
See, the thing is?

UNSC ships outnumber theirs. On top of this, each one has a MAC cannon. Some even have MACs which fire multiple times in a volley.

Know what this means? This means they can strategically place targets and focus fire, doing so from long range to take out enemy ships. And see, the thing about the Citadel's fleets, they're actually piddly small. Sure' UNSC takes a lot of casualties, but unlike the Citadel they can afford to, then pump out just as many of these and send them off to battle again.

The Citadel on the other hand? Every loss is a big, big loss. Not to mention it can and will fracture command when the commanding ship is destroyed and send the entire fleet into disarray.

>>43443710
UNSC ships weren't built to survive MAC guns. They were built to survive hits from Mass Drivers (commercial MAC guns for launching things into space) but not UNSC MAC guns.

That's not to say that they weren't tough. Destroyers were very survivable by small ship standards (only being built possibly by ONI prowlers but that's more down to the fact that prowlers were made for stealth, not combat) while the Halcyon class was capable of continuing operating with 90% of it's sections breached and with most of it's outer hull melted away. Meanwhile Carriers and other large ships were VERY tough. This is not to say that they were tough compared to comparable size/tonnage ships, in combat a UNSC Halcyon class cruiser was horribly out classed by CCS class battle cruisers, UNSC Heavy Frigates could be destroyed by covenant corvettes and UNSC super carriers could be outclassed by covenant super carriers.

In short: UNSC ships were tough against missiles and Mass Drivers. But they were bad against plasma weapons.

>>43448731
>>43465991
Yeah 343 turned it full grimderp.

The UNSC was fighting a colonial rebellion before the Covenant showed up. In the process of that war humans were almost driven extinct. All major colonies were glassed, the only untouched survivors were so remote no one could find them. 343 would have us believe that literally 5 minutes after we survived the end of the war. Some ebil TURRURIST rebellion faction not only popped up out of thin air but managed to gather enough strength to threaten the UNSC.

This manifests in really stupid ways that are handwaved as fuck. In one of the comic books a spartan 4 turns traitor and kills the other members of his squad. So then Palmer shows up (aka worst girl) and he makes this grand speed about "I KNOW THINGS YOU DON'T, A NEW WORLD ORDER IS COMING, ALL HAIL BLA- *glurk*", and then Palmer casually stabs him in the throat and none of that shit is ever explained.

Also ONI a shit.

>>43467480
>Most Covenant troops didn't have shields, with Elites being the exception and elites would tear through non-Spartans like a knight through butter because of it.
Nigger what? Shields were a problem yes, but the Elites were dangerous because they were fast and strong enough to flip a fucking tank. Shields made the problem worse, but Elites were scary as hell just on their own.

And once again, you're assuming all of the Council Races will unite in said war. Which isn't gonna happen. The two races most likely to start shit with the UNSC are the Turians, or the Batarians.

Turians fight in a very...regimented fashion, they use the same strategies all the time and fight in the same formations. They never add Biotics to a Squad, instead Biotics form their own Squads and act like Artillery. The Biotics will be a bitch, but they can be avoided or met with heavy weaponry, like a Scorpion Tank. The shields of the Turians will be an issue, but Mass Effect Shields are vulnerable to rapid-fire weaponry. The basic Assault Rifle the UNSC uses fires faster than most of the weapons in Mass Effect.

They would hold a decent chance, and Spartans would wreck shit.


The Batarians are god damn morons and slavers, who mainly use ineffective weapons designed more to cause pain than to actually kill the enemy. They use Biotics in a more normal fashion, but they don't have many biotics in the first place. They would be even easier to take on than the Turians.


Also, for something to be Hackable it needs to be capable of being accessed from a Distance. Spartan Armor's only function that can be fucked with from a distance is the Comms.

>>43467480
>whats a Spartan supposed to do if an Engineer with an omnitool hacks their armor from halfway across the battlefield? Most MJOLNIR armor wasn't packing Cortana in the passenger seat.
They were fitted with dumb AI and anti-intrusion systems to combat electronic warfare.

>>43467610

To be fair, the UNSC lost the vast majority of their fleet trying to defend Reach, and even Earth got BTFO by the end of the war.
So the back of the UNSC was already broken. Rebuilding their powerbase was going to take an absolute miracle under the best of circumstances, its not surprising that the seperatists that begrudgingly joined up to avoid betting exterminated by aliens would decide to take advantage of the situation once the threat of that had passed.

>>43467637
>open hackertyper
>lalt twice
>I'm in

>>43467610
>343 would have us believe that literally 5 minutes after we survived the end of the war. Some ebil TURRURIST rebellion faction not only popped up out of thin air but managed to gather enough strength to threaten the UNSC.


Yes? The population of the entire species of Humanity (and this was said by your apparent precious Bungie) dropped from over a hundred billion to just a few hundred MILLION.

>>43467748
desu I'm not very invested in Halo lore, but I can't help but shake my head how retarded things got after Halo 3.

Even Halo: Guardians managed to set a new low.

>>43467855
*to be honest

Looks like the mods are desufying stuff for shits and giggles again.

>>43467855
Dude, I help Vorked with Halo : Mythic and have been playing and reading the lore since I was 12. There's been practically no change outside of being better since 343 took over. I mean, shit. The people I see say the stuff suck are the ones who never pick up the books. There are seventeen novels, alongside two live action series, and a shitload of comics.

>>43467748
So more than 99% of the human population has died, and some humans decide that now, at their lowest point, would be a good time to start a war.

>>43468065
To be completely fair
Humans are stupid enough to do that shit. Similar, though obviously not exactly the same, situations have happened in the past.

>>43468065
>and some humans decide that now, at their lowest point, would be a good time to start a war.

No, they decided that now would be a good time to make sure that in our weakened state that these guys that have been killing us for thirty years led by a guy who has personally killed hundreds of millions of us shouldn't ever have the chance to hurt us again

>>43468037
Who the duck is vorked and mythic?

>>43468141>>43468065

Thought if you were talking about Insurrection, then just blame radical idealism.
>>43468150
The Halo tabletop game that started here on /tg/?

we are still taking the halo and mass effect universes as separate entities the question is what if they were fully fused
here's a rough timeline
way way back when the leviathans made the mass effect network and the reapers stated the cycle
then some cycles into the future forerunners existed and did all their forerunnery things up to fighting a super advanced humanity and wiping out all life in the galaxy with the halos
a few more cycles pass and the Protheans and covenant get into a giant pissing contest that ends with the reapening
and if you want to toss in anything regarding 40k the war in heaven did occur but the forerunners lighting the halo array probably starved out the big 4 so the warp is going to be drastically different

>>43468037
>There are seventeen novels, alongside two live action series, and a shitload of comics.

And that's fucking awful. There's so much shit, Travissty and Forerunner novels especially, that the narrative has gotten unnecessarily convoluted and ruined the mystery that made it such an attractive setting.

>>43468516
>And that's fucking awful. There's so much shit, Travissty and Forerunner novels especially, that the narrative has gotten unnecessarily convoluted and ruined the mystery that made it such an attractive setting.

>Oh no it's bad that they fleshed out a universe

>>43466450
UNSC ships can't tank the damage they dish out.

In Fall of Reach the captain literally said "That's impossible..." when he hit a covenant cruiser with a MAC and it was still functional.

>>43467637
>The basic Assault Rifle the UNSC uses fires faster than most of the weapons in Mass Effect.

Bear in mind that UNSC weapons fire standard projectiles the likes of which we see today, whereas Mass Effect guns use the setting's namesake technology to propel rounds with insane force.

ME is on a way higher tech plane than Halo, discounting Forerunner crap.

>>43469063
Also discounting Covenant ship technology.

Based on what we know about Mass Effect ship weapon yields, even a Sovereign-class Reaper only gives off a few hundred Kilotons per second with its beam attacks, which Covenant ship shielding and weaponry would laugh at.

>>43469063
true I want to see the UNSC start implementing mass effect technology into their weapons delivering full size rounds or even pencil thin slices but faster and harder or using large bore mass effect weapons as spartan only weapons like that one sniper you got in ME 2 that was supposedly made for just you.

>>43469118
The main gun on Reapers is actually fucking insane.

It delivers a stream of molten metal at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light. It would slice Covenant ships to shit just as easily as it tore through Mass Effect vessels.

>>43469185
Actual in-canon lore puts it at roughly 400 kilotons of force per second at the most, while Covenant ships regularly shrug off anywhere from multi-megatons to single-terratons depending on what source you draw from.

>>43469185
Also, the Turians actually reverse engineered a less potent version of this.

>>43469205
I've never actually seem measurements of the Reaper gun's force, but that's ridiculous. Something accelerated to that kind of speed would deliver a fuckton more force than that.

Real question is this:

Pre-Halo firings full flood forces VS Full Reaper host.

>>43469063
Re-read the post

>>43467637
>Mass Effect Shields are vulnerable to rapid-fire weaponry


One of the reasons for Heat-Sinks in ME2 is that shields have advanced to such a point that the old Heat-system doesn't let weapons fire fast enough.

An SMG is more effective against shields than a Sniper Rifle.

So that Assault Rifle would eat through shields.

>>43469244
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/my-attempt-at-mass-effect-calcs.10866/

These guys know their stuff pretty well. All other calcs i've found for them from other websites have put them at similar ranges.

Mass Effect has crazy Infantry tech with Biotics and Railgun Assault Rifles, but compared to most Scifi settings, their ship weaponry is surprisingly low.

>>43469245
You mean Forerunner era Flood?
With the thing even bigger than a Gravemindf?

They win.

>>43469246
That logic doesn't follow. Basically, what you're saying is that the insane mass accelerator firearms of ME were having trouble shooting fast enough to overwhelm shields. That doesn't mean sufficiently rapid-firing projectiles would work better - it means that a less potent projectile would have an even harder time.

Sniper rifles do, quite appreciably, work better per shot that SMGs do. You can actually see this in-game.

>>43469291
Urgh, estimations based on some guy's calcs. Sufficientvelocity is terrible, half their shit is made up based on what some guy assumes and starts working from.

>>43469411
All of these calcs are based entirely on the yield strengths we know other mass effect ships have.

This is actually one of the more generous ones. I've seen calcs that put reaper ships in the double-digit kiloton range.

>>43469291
sufficientvelocity is pretty notorious for making giant logical leaps or filling in the blanks with opinions.

For example, I recall someone on there saying that a spess marine tank's adamantium hull is so-and-so think and thus can take the same amount of damage as [insert] real life tank. The problem being that there's no math on how how durable space magic metal is, and so the whole thing was essentially just wank. The site is full of stuff like that.

>>43449666
Uhhhhhh no. I want to reply more to how nonsensical that is but I'm at work. Maybe someone else can explain how ODST are not the equivalent of 'lesser space marines.'

>>43469444
We don't actually know those yield strengths canonically.

A glance through this whole thing shows that they're calculating these yields themselves based on vagaries. They even say "if we assume" at certain points and then just run with it forever.

>>43469483
It is still the highest yield calc out there at the moment for reaper ships. Mass Effect ship weaponry really isn't all that powerful. Quite a lot of franchises could steamroll them in a space encounter.

Even Spacebattles puts them are pretty low yields.

>>43469552
Yes we do, they are in the codex or mentioned offhandedly by NPCs

>>43469552
The Systems Alliance dreadnought fires a 20kg round at 4025km/s for a yield of about 38kt.

This is considered a POWERFUL weapon in ship encounters for Mass Effect.

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>>43459588
I wish this stupid bullshit would die. Spartans were never autistic.

>>43469590
...It's not canon, though.

It's literally a bunch of guys on the internet making stuff up, trying to apply modern physics to what is essentially a soft sci-fi space opera. What these people are doing is equivalent to stating that one of those dark eldar guns that fire tiny black holes couldn't penetrate a Sherman because it has a chance of not penetrating a land raider and some guy assumed a land raider can absorb an arbitrary amount of force. And yeah, that's an argument I've seen on sufficientvelocity.

I rarely summon the word autistic, but it's the only way these sites can be described.

>UNSC meets the citadel races
Hey guys why dont we all be super intergalactic best friends
Yeh ok
> tau show up
Hey tau do you wanna join in?
Idk guys what about muh greater good?
Its okay we also have sexy blu chicks
YAY
> 100,000 years of peace and prosperity.

>>43469728
>then the Innies and the Batarians fuck everything up

>>43469728
Tau are actually expansionist assholes, though. They'd be bad guys in any setting that isn't 40K.

>>43469693
It's called "calcs" because these websites use science to calculate how powerful something is based on physics. Spacebattles is actually a good source, even if sufficientvelocity is not.

This >>43469636
is also actually stated in a codex.

>>43469774
Did you not read the whole thing tho senpai?

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>>43468037
Most of them are garbage desu. I enjoyed Fall of Reach and the other early novels like Ghosts of Onyx (except for Flood). The new media is just... not good.

I mean, look at this art. It's like once every 10 pages or so this artist just does not give a fuck and butterfaces up to 11.

>>43469865
Some of the post-halo 3 comics are pretty good, aside from Escalation.

And the books are great, even if the forerunner trilogy is a slow read.

>>43465411
That's only if their shields can even tank a single MAC round.

>>43469944
The shields cant. MAC's will shred most ME ships they fire at.

It's the reload speed of the MAC compared to the firing speed of an Alliance ship that is the reason Alliance would win fleet engagements. UNSC would take down a bunch of ships in one volly, but those that survived would wipe them out.

>>43469063
No they don't. Mass Effect weapons are powerful, but shooting a grain of sand at such absurd velocities is actually detrimental to its power and would cause it to shatter on impact. I've seen proper calcs done on ME guns, and they turned out just a big better than modern day assault rifles loaded with armor piercing rounds. Their main advantage is the fuck HUGE magazine so every single trooper in ME can act as his own LMG suppression team.

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Okay, so a couple of things being omitted here, but honestly I think tau would probably win this shindig. But the war between the citadel races and the UNSC I would give to the UNSC. They have to many advantages in space. There ships are bigger and more durable. They have more firepower then the council races with the MAC cannons and other bullcrap. Lastly they held out against the covenant who in my opinion were way worse and harder to deal with then anything the council race had. Krogan, please, have you seen hunters or brutes? Turians are small fry compared to Elites. The only thing that is different is the tech, and the covenant weaponry was far more dangerous then the council race stuff aside from biotics. But the UNSC still won on the ground against bullshit like this, mainly because of spartans.

tl;dr tau would probably win. If not UNSC is the second runner up.

>>43469905
Some yeah, Escalation is a real stinker though and overshadows the good stuff.

I was happier with the story when it was just about humans surviving an alien invasion. Then they added in the ancient humans stuff and the flood origins and things kind of went to shit. Like the flood supposedly happened because ancient humans found this dried up powder in old tombs and fed it to their roosters so that their cockfights would be extra awesome. Thus touching off a zombie apocalypse. I mean really? Who wrote this garbage? Still not as bad as the ending of Halo: Guardians.

>>43470149
Flood origin is definitely shit and ancient humans is a boring concept.

But some of the alien races are pretty damn cool. Elites are one of my top three favorite xeno's thanks to Arby.

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So can we talk about how utterly fucked the Council would be in ground combat? The only military vehicles not designed by Humans in ME are the Krogan Tomkah and maybe the A-61 Mantis Gunship. Biotics and kinetic barriers give them the advantage in an infantry fight, but the Council has no armor or air support.

Everything from Halo Wars except the Sparrowhawk were in use long before 2525. The UNSC ground forces would be virtually unchallenged, and the Council wouldn't resort to glassing like the Covenant did.

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This is a nice versus thread and imma let you finish but I just wanted to let everyone know that this beauty is coming out in 21 days

>>43470234
Then again look how long palaven held out against the reapers.

>>43470234

A strong Biotic can rip a tank in half, which evens it out some. But then the UNSC just starts geeking the mage (it really IS universally applicable advice) in every single battle.

>>43470265
Reaper ground combat is basically "Geth" or "throw husks and cyborg zombies at them until they die"

>>43470234
UNSC vehicles are pretty shit though, their main strength is in their air support because the Falcon is badass.

The Scorpion meanwhile uses a piddly 90mm-120mm gun that appears to be less advanced than modern tank rounds (you can see the casings in the Halo games, they're basically ye olde howitzer shells instead of SABOTS or HEAT) and its profile is nearly as bad as the Leman Russ from 40k. The only stuff that's really good are the railgun vehicles (Wolverines IIRC), and the UNSC rarely ever deploys them.

>>43470265
The enter population was armed and the planet fully fortified

The Tau fuggin' own the Kroot which are zerg rush shock troops on their own accord. If a Kroot ever genesteals from a Krogan...Jesus Christ.

>>43470264
Hnnnnnnnng

better save up

>>43470330
Fair enough

>>43470265
Reapers also lacked ground and air vehicles.

>>43470276
A Biotic may be able to rip apart a tank, but they can't do much about being blasted apart by artillery and airstrikes.

>>43470276
No, they really can't. MAYBE An Asari Matriarch or a Freak like Jack, but "a strong biotic". And the UNSC has a lot more tanks than there are people like that.

>>43470381

>A Biotic may be able to rip apart a tank, but they can't do much about being blasted apart by artillery and airstrikes.

Sure they can. Well, ok, maybe not Biotics, but the underlying technology that powers Biotics. A sufficiently strong Mass Effect field fucks up projectiles that are moving slowly enough. The reason infantry weapons still work in ME is because those projectiles are moving absurdly fast and the personal ME fields infantry units carry isn't strong enough to fully cancel it out.

A couple problems with everything posted here.

1: The Tau uses Diplomacy first. ALWAYS. You guys are confusing the Empire with the Enclave which is more shoot first, ask questions later.

2: The Citidel would be more receptive to a diplomatic overture, and might work out some means to live peacefully with the Tau without coming to blows because they won't convert to the Greater Good.

3: Humans in the UNSC being who they are at first would hear out the Tau, but when the Tau start going "Convert or we fight" then it's on.

While Spartans are pretty hardcore, they aren't on Space Marine level, and would probably get cut down by the firepower the Tau could bring.

The Citadel might end up sticking it's nose in things by stepping in between the two, causing quite a clusterfuck.

Wanna see a Galaxy turn into a quagmire? Toss the UNSC, Citadel, and Tau Empire into it.

>>43470234
>inb4 fuckyouI'mthemako.gif

>>43470453
>cks up projectiles that are moving slowly enough
Actually ME fields work WORSE against slower moving objects, they are designed that way because otherwise it could fuck things up.

Like air getting through, or tossing your chair away when you go to sit down.

>>43470077
>applying cals associated with modern firearms to projectiles wreathed in space magic

We don't know exactly how mass effect stuff works (if we did, we'd be using it), but it's stated that ME firearms deliver their projectiles with much greater force than modern firearms.

>>43470507
There's clearly a cutoff point where the field stops accepting stuff after a certain velocity. I mean, personal shields seem to defend against blunt trauma, so a bullet is definitely going fast enough to trigger it.

It's probably force that activates the effect, though, not speed.

>>43470488
>While Spartans are pretty hardcore, they aren't on Space Marine level, and would probably get cut down by the firepower the Tau could bring.

Let's not start this debate again.

Can we all just agree that when it comes to comparing these two, the differences lie most in their armor's durability and the overall role they were designed for?

Space Marine armor is tougher and they are meant to be shock troops. Spartans are described as walking tanks in the books, sure, but they are also meant for a covert operations role. Space Marines are designed to stand in the open shrugging off tank shells while Spartans are designed to be ninja's in power armor with crazy speed/strength and damn good durability.

>>43470508
That only matters if they provide evidence that they are superior. We have descriptions of them from the Codex, and a grain of sand going at hypersonic velocities does more harm than good to the lethality of the round.

Remember, the energy of an object resulting from velocity is a bell curve, not linear.

>>43470234
It's less that there are no other vehicles and more that we don't see them. The game's perspective is human.

The idea that the Turians of all races don't have vehicles dedicated for combat is ridiculous.

>>43470622
Uh, no? Astartes are designed to be everything that is needed. They can both be stealthy ninjas (A Ravenguard shadow walker can waltz through a Tokyo subway station in broad daylight without anybody seeing him) or unrelenting walking tanks like the Death Guard.

And out of armor, an Astartes is both stronger and faster than a Spartan.

>>43470627
No, sorry, if the canon material states that they're superior then they are superior.

They don't explain how this works because it is essentially space magic. There is no explanation we can come up with that involves raw numbers, because mass effect tech is not something that exists - it has to be handwaved.

>>43470678
>And out of armor, an Astartes is both stronger and faster than a Spartan.
First off, feats for Astartes vary depending on the author and are seemingly immeasurable by any average standard.

Secondly, let's not devolve this thread into yet again a Spartan vs. Space Marine debate.

Space Marines are all-purpose shock troops. Spartans are Covert Op Specialists that can also fill a Shock Troop role.

Hey.

Hey. Random thought. How would those blue space elves from that comic that almost never updates fare against the Tau? Or any of these races, but Tau first and foremost, because blue on blue.

>>43470736
Not if the author is clearly wrong by the same shit he just wrote prior.

>>43470622
The debate is going to happen. It's already begun with your post.

Anyway, spess mehreens and 40K fluff in general are notoriously vague, but Marines do seem to pull off far more insane feats than Spartans. Obviously there are outliers like John (and outliers like, Tycho or Calgar), but Marines just do crazier shit.

>>43470810
That's not really how stories work anon.

If a writer says their thing in their story does a thing, it does the thing. The writer cannot be wrong regarding a universe they have made up. They can be wrong in assigning numbers, but that doesn't mean the stuff their thing can do in their story is wrong - it means their numbers are wrong.

>>43470923
No it doesn't. If they state a solid number or at least reference one that is far more important than vague things like "superior" which could mean anything from the rounds hitting like 8.5mm high velocity sniper munitions to a howitzer. One statement actually provides numbers to work with "this thing the size of a grain of sand travels at hypersonic speeds" versus "it's superior to modern rifles".

>>43471038
>If they state a solid number or at least reference one that is far more important

It really isn't. Are you one of those people that think SW blasters are the most powerful guns in fiction, despite not even chewing through an inch or two of redwood bark in the films?

Look, the actual story is what's important. What happens or is stated to happen in the narrative is important. If a guy says his fantasy gun shoots harder than any modern gun then he's right - he literally cannot be wrong because it's his creation.

If he assigns numbers and they don't fit that then his numbers are wrong.

>>43471038
You're treating this like some kind of technical sport where there are rules. It's not. The intent when ME guns were created was clearly that they were more powerful than any handheld firearm today - by a grand few degrees, considering how much this is highlighted.

If an author couldn't math, and assigned unrealistic numbers? Then they couldn't math. The intent is still there and their creation still does what it does in their work of fiction.

Essentially, all these cals you're doing and citing? Pure masturbation.

>>43447964
That number of missiles is for the second largest frigate we know about, just saying. Also keep in mind that Hyperion missiles on the Forward unto Dawn is non-canon.

>>43470676
Turians use battle mechs. Each legion has a few. They are like the one you fight on Omega in ME2.

Also Turians would have NO beef with the UNSC beyond not liking AI. If the Turians are the first to encounter the UNSC then humans might even join the Council right of the bat.

And the Tau would likely try to start conquering the Terminus systems right away...

>>43472013
The number of missiles is for the Charon-class light frigate, the second smallest of the four frigate classes. It's also the only one we know the number of missiles per pod for. Paris-class heavy frigates have the same number of Archer pods, but could have more missiles per pod. Stalwart-class light frigates only have 30 pods. The late-war/post-war Strident-class heavy frigates don't have an official number of Archer pods.

>>43472293
Tau Empire would expand the fuck out of Terminus, no real opponents that could oppose them and their FTL is more flexible. Anyone who tells them no would just be stalled by diplomatic bs. They could just camp the relays and lock down whole areas. Of course they would poke at dormant relays even more than Alliance humans would so they will probably wake up chtulu before long.

I think if you somehow got the Turians, Krogan, Spartans and Sangheili into the same picture they would quickly become battle bros.

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>>43472444
Scratch that, Stalwarts have 30 missiles per pod, and an unknown number of pods.

>>43443185
>shitty crossover fanfiction, wat hapen
My self-insert unites all the different factions whilst accidentally assembling a harem of fine ass alien bitches from each setting and maybe a human or two so long as they're kinda freaky like a cyborg or a Spartan or a cyborg Spartan or something

>>43472452
Do you guys think the Krogan would accept becoming the UNSC's soldiers in exchange for a cure to the Genophage? Would the UNSC even offer?

Also the UNSC would expand their to. The Council wouldn't likely care. The hate those lawless zones.

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>>43467610
>Also ONI a shit.

The Office of Naval Intelligence cordially invites you to [s]stop talking shit before you get hit[/s]

>>43472444
>>43472520
Ah, you're right. I forgot that the Charon and Paris have the same number of pods.

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>>43472593
Hm? Did you say something?

>>43470264
Is that a halo version of X-Wing?

>>43473248
More like a slightly faster paced Firestorm Armada.

Spartan Games got the rights to do a Halo Mini Wargame and they've done a pretty good job so far.

>>43473339
So are there miniatures available for purchase right now?

>>43473394
Yup. They've been out for a few months now. Pretty good quality stuff. They are even making 343-approved canon models for ships that have only ever been shown in books before.

http://shop.spartangames.co.uk/SearchResults.asp?Cat=2076

>>43473461
Oh awesome. Thanks for the link man.

>>43473461
Without getting too off-topic, do you think it's feasable to paint these ships?

>>43465411

But super mac rounds went through the shields and made covenant super carriers shatter. Super mac ain't nothin' to fuck with, and to my recolection the super mac's were letting shot's off ever 5-7 seconds in halo 2.

>>43448367
>the lack of any real explanation that Bungie provided
Not everything had to be explained. The mystery of the Forerunners and their technology was cool precisely because it was a mystery. It gave the audience the sense that the Chief and the Human-Covenant War were a smaller part of a much larger and older setting. I feel like 343 shedding light on the Forerunners ruins the mystique somewhat.

Depends on which one the Council races find first.

>>43476626
>The mystery of the Forerunners and their technology was cool precisely because it was a mystery.
This. Also, I personally thought that the lore tidbits out the flood war and the ancient humans really added to the universe and helped to thicken the relations between the forerunners and humans.

>>43473900
Absolutely. The ones at Gencon looked great.

>>43480417
Ok cool. I'm thinking about just using gray primer and then the citadel paints I already have to give them their uniform gray shade, and then probably a stripe of an undecided color. Paris Class frigates are generally darker than larger ships right?

>Implying the O.N.I. wouldn't do anything to ensure human supremacy.

>Implying the Tau and the Citadel could outclass O.N.I.

Nigga you wot?

>>43481505
ONI a shit

>>43481622
truth

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>>43484669
>truth
And so, you must be silenced.

>>43443471
The council has spent centuries doing jack shit and had everything they have handed to them on a platter.

The UNSC found a way to punch a hole in reality so they can use FTL travel.

The council can waffle on about how advanced they are all they want meanwhile the UNSC rips a hole in space to deliver corn.

Also Slipspace is a lot more versatile than the FTL used in ME.

>>43459362
I like to imagine that Johnson gave John some taste in music.

So most likely flip music, which is supposed to eb descended from metal.