What is the cause of depression?

lack of a sex life

>>7648230
Owning a mirror

Can either be strictly psychological, strictly physiological, or both.

I'd wager it's usually a bit of both. Antidepressants should be an absolute last resort, but unfortunately GPs (and to a lesser extent, psychiatrists) give em out like candy. Further solidifying their place in our great "if X then Y" culture.

>>7648230
Insecurity

I don't think I've ever been sad and not gotten over it in 5 minutes

>>7648238
Apparently you've never had health problems, or been really and truly trapped.

Insecurity and feeling as though you can't change anything, or repeated failure to perform, does lend itself to the resulting depression. But it's hardly the core. You don't seem to know much about what you just blanketed your opinion over.

>>7648230
the fact that mosquitos are not extinct

like, seriously, we already have the technology to exterminate them for good, but those goddamn "do gooder" environmentalists would go muh biodiversity!
fucking creationist concept

>>7648246
This seems like a joke, but unfortunately some people really do believe this. Zero knowledge of ecology.

>>7648244
hes right though. give me a case of depression where you cant reason insecurity is at the core

>>7648253
Type 2 trigeminal neuralgia.
Severe allergies to most food. Body seems to reject the little food that doesn't result in systemic vasodilation, and garbles up your head so you have difficulty thinking.
Episodes of a near inability to communicate, and unfortunately, you can't run from all interaction.
No money. Barely a job. No transportation.
Constant wonderings of what and why.

As I said, insecurity is a component, but it isn't the whole. Some things just eventually make you feel desolate because you're incapable of tapping feedback loops, contexts, or states that would result in any positive sensation. You sink so deep into a place where there's no hope and barely any contrast that you cease to realize you're even there. Everything just becomes misery and then you stop feeling even that. At this point it's not even insecurity at not being able, or the threat of failure, or self disappointment, or self disgust. You just aren't. You just plain aren't. And as you slowly unravel it all, it' much more than just insecurity you have to acknowledge and reconcile.

There are places so utterly shit that the English language doesn't even have direct terms for what life becomes.

>>7648248
>implying mosquitoes have an important role in ecology
>implying they are exclusive pollinators of anything
>implying they are exclusive food source of anything

over 99% of all the species that have ever existed have already gone extinct
mosquitoes disappearing would have a negligible ecological effect

>>7648261
you are so full of shit its palpable.

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>>7648264
"I started the debate and now I'm sure I can't win, I should probably just exit the same way I came in."

Good, you little twat. Conversations over.

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the cause of depression is not being happy

>>7648261
Any rational bitch fucking cigarette smoking being that has mastered logic in elementary school would realize that life is arbitrary.

>>7648721
I don't quite follow what you're trying to say.

Being stuck in loops causes depression for me. When my brain is being used for the same thought patterns over and over again without much progress I feel frustrated and generally useless.

I used to get suicidal because I allowed myself to stay in negative thought patterns. I spent much of my life in relationships that were unhealthy which lent me little to no self worth. I would say at the root insecurity, but also self awareness may cause depression over time.

Even if you were to remove your ego and were to look at the world outside of yourself there is still plenty to be depressed about. I'm constantly upset about larger picture things like government, religion, the state of the world etc.

The difference is that an individual can learn to overcome their insecurities with little to no support. An individual will have a much harder time changing the state of the world, or the pettiness of human kind.

>>7648731
it's bait/half-baked copypasta

i assume the point was "my life isn't like everyone else's!" is still an insecurity

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Depression reflects the terror of the situation.
You cannot fool the mind all the time.

>>7648238

Yeah, this is often the case. I know someone who's depressed and she's constantly correcting people's grammar, talking about my friends behind their backs, and acting super judgmental. Can't say I feel any empathy for her; she brings it on herself.

>>7648230
You found a comfort zone in patterns of behavior and information processing that are self defeating and self perpetuating. Stop it. Think about things you like and make them fill your life.

>>7648230
Being a little bitch.

>>7648878
You ever walk 60 miles through subzero temperatures, carrying ~45 lbs, with no food or water, then survive out in the open for around 4 days? Even after walking down a road you didn't had washed out and flooded, and breaking through the ice into water up to your waist.

Tell me Mr. NotALittleBitch, what can you really do? Where would you really break? How resistant do you really think you are? There's a 9 out of ten chance you're a typical brat who would break down in self doubt and pity, desperate for someone to bail you out. Keep acting tough, I hope it's really there if you have to put it to the test.

Not putting your faith in Jesus.

>>7648230
Thinking of ways to make sense of depression is not the way to get better. The trick is to raise your involvement in the world, even if you start out with something ridiculous it doesn't matter.

>>7648230
An inability to take control of your own life coupled with a shitstorm of negative thinking.

>>7648888
Nice quads.

And when did I say I'm not a bitch?

I am. I'm depressed as fuck.

When tanx < 0

All this snapping at people. You guys behave like kicked dogs and should be put down.

>>7648246

omg, I know, right?

why don't we just introduce something that will kill the shit out of mosquitos, like a virus, or bats...

depressed dude:

1) start taking st johns wort, google it.
2) get some magic shrooms, LSD, mescalin, or if all else fails, good dank thought-provoking medical weed. Take a weekend vacation, go camping somewhere, and spent two days in total solitude, doing your psychedelics, reflect on your life and your existence, and pray for help.
3) remove toxic relationships from your life, no matter how used to them you are.
4) replace them with better relationships, be persistent and you will find someone to love
5) change your life, be rebellious, go wherever you want, do what interests you.

>>7648869
>Think about things you like and make them fill your life.
Doesnt realy work if you also suffer from anhedonia.

>>7648230

A lot of things, really. Short or long term trauma that can come from anything like abuse, bullying, segragation, panic attacks etc. And what makes it even more difficult to really diagnose properly is its strong connection to plain old procrastination.

>>7648946
>An inability to take control of your own life coupled with a shitstorm of negative thinking.

Yes people say this a lot. Kinda like the old dating advice that women prefer men with strong self esteem. Or the advice about how you shouldn't complain about your troubles.

I understand what they're coming from, but another way of saying the same is that people don't give a fuck about your problems, and if you have them, then pretend that you don't. Which, let's be honest here, isn't the most humane thing to do either.

Fact is, some of us got more shit than others. While complaining about it won't help, people shouldn't be discouraged to talk about their feelings. Some empathy and support from others isn't all that much to ask.

In my case, the cause behind my depression has always been the same: segragation. I've never been welcome in any group. And the only exceptions have been when my money or help was needed. Never because of my personality, which was the only thing I ever expected of anyone else.

I've made peace with the fact that I will never have love in my life, and the fact that none of that is my fault either. But it does leave you in a precarious position: Everything about our lives from early childhood to elderly age is about love, family, sex and social acceptance. When due to reasons you cannot control or fix, you're excluded of all of that, how much purpose does that leave in life?

>>7649341
>cont.

At some point you realise that you've spent your entire life, over 30 years of it, trying to be happy, positive, helping people and being there for them. And while not the perfect human being, at least you tried. And so very little to show for it.

While obviously everyone is free to make their own choice, what happens when everyone freely chooses their choise to be anything but you? When your initial dilemma of decades, "they won't have me" changes to "they CHOOSE to hurt me, how stupid would I have to be to ever even want to have *them*?" Suddenly after decades of a balanced, if lonely life, you discover you begin to be completely indifferent to everyone.

Child problems? Fuck em. Family issues? Well they had more than my share of happiness in this life already, fuck their family. Anything else? Why should I give flying fuck, everyone else has done precisely whatever they wanted with no regard for me, so that's exactly what I want to do from this point on.... and there comes a point where you finally understand that all those bullies and assholes and dicks you hated in your life and always did your best to avoid being like them. Well. You've become them, because fuck manners and morals and ethics, all those BS ideals that only ever enslaved you to the will of others to begin with.

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>>7648234

>>7648267

He's right though, you're so full of shit you're not even worth arguing with

Most papers I've seen relates depression to lack of percieved options

>>7648230
>liberal arts fag
>believes conscious experience exists
>wants to know what causes depression
>doesn't realize that humans dont have "feelings" or a "mind"
>probably thinks psychoactive drugs actually affect the human mind

lel go back to /lit/ fagtard.

>>7648230
Sin, or in scientific terms, the subconsious awareness of evolutionary failure and inadequacy. It's the body's way of letting you know you've fucked something up big time morally.

>>7648925
>Thinking of ways to make sense of depression is not the way to get better.

That's not what they asked though. We just want to understand it for now.

Deficiencies in BDNFs and endorphins.

Serotonin's extremely difficult to synthesize due to it being derived from tryptophan and tryptophan, being an amino acid, having to compete with other amino acids as per breakage through the blood brain barrier. Other amino acids often take precedence (or, more accurately, are more abundantly found) making it difficult for tryptophan to outsource and beat these other amino acids i.e. an absurd amount of tryptophan is needed as to combat this or to reach the neurons first due to its prevalence.

BDNFs (Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factors) are much simpler for the body to produce (comparative to serotonin). The body produces them naturally when fasting.

A distraction from an existential crisis.

>>7649392
It's a common reason someone would ask, that's all.

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>>7649408
Can't even read your terribad handwriting.

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>>7649424

You're not supposed to understand, you're supposed to feel.

7649388

Care to explain better? That looks like a very nice explanation.

>>7648230
Genetics, bad life experiences, chemical imbalances, lack of omega 3 in your body and the jews.

>>7648230
Owning a vagina.

>>7649599

Don't you mean not owning a vagina?

;_;

>>7648262
>>7648262

>over 99% of all the species that have ever existed have already gone extinct
mosquitoes disappearing would have a negligible ecological effect

holy shit that non sequitur. well done anon

>>7649372
How do you think what you just said relates with what I said?

Either a large proportion of posters on this board are half braindead, or I am. Maybe both, but probably not neither.

Life's great mysteries.

neurochemically its either the amount of fun/happiness causing neuro transmitters are
: too weak/too small/not enough
:shy
:don't know what the fuck they are doing

>>7649599
yeah once a month my body tells me to scream at people and then I go cry about it after all because my tummy cramps
and knowing this will go on every month for another 30 years surely, I'm not very optimistic.

>>7650464
Neurons in the digestive system produce a fair amount of endorphins. Also producing benzodiazepines, respecting the digestive system might yield a natural xanax high.

Drinking water and going vegan especially. Perhas paleo yielding the same results.

>>7648262
>mosquitoes disappearing would have a negligible ecological effect
Now the bees are dying male mosquitoes are the primary pollen vector for those which use insects.

>>7650483
wat

>>7648261
true and can relate.
it looks to others like getting stuck over trivial shit.
but you can't move, your core thoughts don't care to move anymore.
insecurity has nothing to do with it.

>>7648253
would you call inadequacy a form of insecurity? every time I have ever been depressed for a long period of time it's because I didn't do something I said I would or because I have failed at something I tried really hard at

>>7648230
Breaking through the ice into water up to your waist.

>>7648230
The cause is the lack of sleeping will help to produce high levels of cortisol!? , which will start a slow process of depression
I saw this in a recent TED-ED video , check their YouTube channel

Good luck

>>7648235
A well-thought and constructive post? On a psychology question?
I'm not ready for this, /sci/

There is no single cause to depression. It's a complex disease. It can't be simplified to just one factor.

The mechanism of depression is an imbalance in the levels of certain neurotransmitters in the brain. To be sad is a natural reaction when faced with a myriad of situations, but the normal brain is able to compensate for that kind of stress. Depression happens when that compensation mechanism is no longer effective.

Particularly strong stimuli, repeated exposure or both can place high amounts of stress on the various pathways of the brain, leading to hypercompensation, which ultimately leads to neuroadaptation. In this case, what essentially happens is your brain gets a strong stimulus and provides a similarly strong compensatory signal, which reaches unhealthy levels.

The neurons on the pathway are forced to adapt to the strong compensatory signals or risk death. In order to do that, they eliminate receptors for the neurotransmitters, which effectively copes with the surge. However, getting rid of the receptors is much faster than the process of synthesizing and exposing them on the membrane. When neurotransmitter concentrations go back to normal, the receiving neuron is ill-equipped to receive them, leaving it with a much lower signal to noise ratio. As the pathway as a whole becomes sensitized, the mechanism the brain has for compensating stress becomes ineffective. The person becomes unable to maintain normal homeostasis; she's sad even without any stress

Depressed people just can't feel happy. Clinically, we essentially describe two dimensions of emotional symptoms: more negative emotions and less positive emotions. Depressed people affected by the mechanism above will feel sadness, angst, hopelessness, loneliness even among other people, guilt, pessimism, low self-esteem, like they're the cause of other's problems, sleepiness during the day, insomnia at night, desire to "disappear", thoughts about death and eventually the desire to end their own lives.

I'd call insecurity and the sense of uselessness/worthlessness big factors in getting deppressed. Accompany these with excessive fatigue and negative occurences.

>>7648235

Modern antidepressants are extremely effective when properly applied. When we look at the patient's problem, we consider which pathways of the brain are being affected and how. This allows us to recommend an exact drug or combination of drugs which specifically target those pathways. Note that the time it takes for antidepressants to produce a lasting, observable effect is on the order of multiple weeks to months; adherence to the treatment is extremely important. Depression, anxiety, stress and other such emotional problems will pretty much destroy the brain little by little, so patients are always better off with treatment. Even if they stop it, they'll often stay in better shape than they were before.

Psychopharmacology is the domain of the neurologist. I think general practitioners and other specialties are never going to be able to consider the full complexity of the patient's problem like a neurologist could. While it is my hope that psychiatry and neurology will merge into one single discipline one day, we all still have different ways of looking at, understanding the problems of and treating the brain. It seems to me that neuroscience and neurology takes an "inside out" approach to understanding the brain, starting from its biochemical structure and working its way up towards maximum complexity, which is human behavior. Meanwhile, psychology and psychiatry looks at human behavior in its maximum complexity and tries to trace its origins, infer its structure, its neurological basis. I think both lines are going to meet at some point.

Also, psychological therapy can be, well, is considered an epigenetic drug by neurology and neuroscience.

>>7652635
>Modern antidepressants are extremely effective when properly applied.
Extremely effective relative to what?

That's the actually base layer of the conversation, and I don't mean it in terms of a control group. Multiple treatments for the same problem, even if all of them appear to work, can lead to very different outcomes. In the absence of meaningful hard evidence showing depression can't be fixed by remedying poor diet, habits, or life situation, then fixing someone's bad feels shouldn't fall to pharmacological means unless either as a last resort, or the patient explicitly expresses that they want to make that kind of lifestyle choice. The medicated lifestyle. It's a valid one, but the only one.

>>7652773
not the only one*

I felt depressed until a few days ago when I started watching MIT lectures, and found that if I paused the lecture, I could actually solve the examples before the professor did. The rest of the video becomes me laughing at the vaunted students of MIT struggle to solve the same.

Honestly, for me it's about confidence and empowerment. I need to have confidence to not be depressed, because I feel empowered when I feel confident enough to accomplish tasks I set out to do.

>>7648230
Being in an undesirable position with no way out.
Feeling trapped and powerless.

>>7652792
It does not get any simpler than this.

>>7652773
I said they were a very effective option. I never said lifestyle changes couldn't help. They definitely do. Good diet, regular exercise and healthy social activity do wonders for people's general well being.

However, lifestyle change is hard. In practice I don't see a lot of people who manage to maintain the new way of life in the long term, especially when their motivation is being drained away by depression.

Also. the medication and the lifestyle changes are not mutually exclusive. A healthy lifestyle is pretty much universally recommended; it will help people feel better and be healthier in general. The medication is there to attack the problem directly. They often reinforce each other.

Medication is not a lifestyle. Most patients on antidepressants will eventually not need them anymore. As the neurochemical imbalances get corrected, the brain learns how to be happy again.

It is true that the same medication, when prescribed to different patients for the same condition, can lead to very different, unpredictable outcomes. Human beings are complex and the brain is possibly the most complex organ of all. Sometimes it's just the medication, sometimes it's the doctor that is wrong about the whole class of drugs.

>>7652607
P sure this poster knows what they're talking about.

You should post some papers you've read on the subject as they seem they would be really interesting. (also I know I won't look for them)

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>>7653098

Sure. I just reviewed the bibliography of some of my favorite textbooks and found this nice 2010 article:

>Childhood Stress, Serotonin Transporter Gene and Brain Structures in Major Depression

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3055341/

I chose this one in particular one because it managed to bring together many important concepts: the physical changes overwhelming stress can produce in the brain, the genetics of depression and the models of the brain's neurochemical pathways.

Also related: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2821020/

When we talk about this subject, we must always remember: we still don't fully understand the brain. Nobody has proved anything truly definitive when it comes to the pathophysiology of depression. What we do have is an increasingly sophisticated model of the disease; a system based on current neuroscience that guides our understanding and reasoning and is making more and more sense as we learn more and more about the nervous system.

The first theory was based solely on the monoamines: serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine. We observed that if these neurotransmitters were depleted, the result was depression. So, if you were depressed, it meant you were running low on these chemicals.

The link between the concepts was obvious but it proved to be too simple an explanation. Still, they were clearly related to the disease so the theory was not worthless. So we went after the monoamine receptors, the closest thing to the monoamines themselves. That resulted in the explanations I described above, a theory that took it all one step further.

Maybe there's too few neurotransmitters, and the neurons are consequently expressing a lot of receptors in a desperate attempt to catch any molecule that happens to be in the vicinity; normal levels become toxic. Or maybe there were too many chemicals at one point and the neurons have withdrawn their receptors and now that the levels have normalized the signal is weak.

>>7653808
The main gripe I have with the amine/receptor theory is that it presents no clear mechanism by which therapy is an (even moderately) effective treatment.

Low IQ

>>7653849
Most literature done on this subject has found a stronger tendency towards the inverse.

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>>7653846
>presents no clear mechanism by which therapy is an (even moderately) effective treatment

That's Dr. Stahl's job!

>Stahl's Essential Psychopharmacology
>Neuroscientific Basis and Practical Applications
>Stephen M. Stahl

I highly recommend this book. It has excellent illustrations which greatly facilitate understanding.

semi-related, does anyone have any advice on dealing with treatment-resistant depression (I actually have a BPD diagnosis)

I've tried everything (cbt, dbt, group, drug combos, etc) and I've been standing on the ledge all week metaphorically.

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>>7653846

>>7653873
>>7653866
There is literally nothing in these slides related to therapy and how it is related to neurotransmitter/receptor regulation.

>>7649341
>>7649353
>I've made peace with the fact that I will never have love in my life

I'm still trying to accept that. My family only cares about my schooling, which is all fine and dandy, but I'd like to have a life too.

Also, my school sucks because all the single girls are skanky dykes.

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>>7653878
How so?

If we are talking about antidepressants: their typical mechanism of action involves modifying the concentration of neurotransmitters in the synaptic cleft. This leads directly to the adaptation of the neurons involved in the synapse.

The selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) class of antidepressants represents antagonists of an enzyme which pumps serotonin back into the presynaptic neuron. The purpose of the pump is to lower the concentration of serotonin in the cleft and thus prevent toxicity. However, if the concentration is already too low, then it is only exacerbating the problem by lowering it even more and causing the postsynaptic neuron to compensate.

By inhibiting the reuptake of serotonin, we can increase its concentration and induce downregulation of the number of 5-HT receptors exposed by the postsynaptic neuron. This corresponds to the "decreased synthesis of receptors" part of figure 7-10; the last picture I posted. It also cites the increased synthesis of BDNF, the lack of which basically causes neuronal apoptosis.

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>>7653878

>>7648230
Ignoring your problems and suppressing your emotions over a long time.

>>7653934
>>7653937
How about reading what I wrote.

If depression is just fucked up regulation of neurotransmitters and/or their receptors, why does therapy do anything for it.

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What is the cause of any subjective internal experience?

When I look at a strawberry, I experience "red." On the other hand, a depressed person looking at the same strawberry will experience "depression."

>>7653984
Why can a monkey wrench be both a tool and a weapon, depending on context? Why can you look at an object and see it as something different depending on the day?

The cause is just your internal state at the time. Without plotting it out mechanically, or modeling out the psyche in an abstract sense, that's really an adequate explanation. A depressed person can experience the strawberry as many things to begin with, so it's possible I just don't understand your question.

>>7653978
Two reasons:

The first, is that some people have a strange predisposed bias against the idea that the psyche itself can spur changes in a person's mind as a whole, on a functional level. There are many means for this to happen, and I don't know of any feedback loops in the brain that can get locked down and won't change without direct pharmacological intervention.

The second is that this model of depression is false, and almost always left wanting. It doesn't matter how much 5-HT you flood yourself with. It doesn't matter how much dopamine you release. You can be miserable and know you're miserable even after crippling your ability to feel it. This would suggest it's more accurately described via the state of the whole than just a few parts.

life

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>>7653978
I just don't see what you're trying to clarify. Do you mean the symptoms? Why influencing the receptor-neurotransmitter system may improve the patient's mood?

>>7648230
Depression can have various causes, such as subsidence or excavation.

>>7654026
>I just don't see what you're trying to clarify. Do you mean the symptoms? Why influencing the receptor-neurotransmitter system may improve the patient's mood?
How does therapy correct neurotransmitter system irregularities? It's a pretty simple question really.

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>>7654044
I'll post the pictures which fully explain the pharmacodynamics SSRI. There are quite a few steps between the introduction of the drug and the downregulation of the receptors of the postsynaptic neuron.

Just to be clear: we are talking about the same kind of therapy, yes?

>I don't know of any feedback loops in the brain that can get locked down and won't change without direct pharmacological intervention.

Me neither. If I remember correctly, it's already been demonstrated that things like meditation can have profound epigenetic effects on the brain, if not on the whole body. I have no article to cite, but I don't doubt that for a second.

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>>7654044

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Just to be clear: downregulation is a basic negative feedback mechanism of cells. The number of receptors exposed by the cell determines how sensitive it is to a given molecule. The more receptors, the more sensitive the cell is. The more molecules there are, the more they negatively influence the number of receptors, and thus the sensitivity, of the cell. Abundance leads to desensitization. And the reverse is also true: scarcity leads to sensitization via upregulation.

>>7648749
Similar sitch, Wade.

Very broad patterns of thought that lead to relatively similar conclusions; many of which contributed to depression. It was mostly existential.

>>7648888
I have to suck your little dick because quads, but you make yourself sound unreasonable and a little stupid bringing up something so contrasting as a survival scenario.

Here's a deeply interesting 2010 article that reviews the neuroanatomy involved in mood disorders and correlates brain structures with clinical findings:

>Neurocircuitry of Mood Disorders

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3055427/

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>>7648230
baby dick

>>7654089
>>7654093
No I'm clearly talking about psychotherapy you dolt.

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>>7654482
I see, my mistake then.

As I said before, psychotherapy is understood as an epigenetic drug, capable of inducing the same changes in the neuron's expression of genes that drugs can. Actually, the entire environment the person is inserted in is continuously doing that to her at all times; stress, learning, exercise, etc. That is also the explanation for how environmental events such as childhood abuse can precipitate mental health conditions such as depression. It's something of an unifying concept.

I can post more about the molecular basis of the epigenetic changes if you want. In any case, the book I cited describes it very nicely.

>>7655245
Eh, seems like more of a software problem then than a hardware problem.

>>7656715
Software problems make hardware problems.
Hardware problems can make software problems.
In the context of neurology, I'm not certain how anyone could even try to argue this. Nor why they'd expect to be taken seriously.

When it comes to mental illness and depression specifically, this endlessly tiresome dichotomy-based "debate" and "theories" (if you can even call them that) maddens me to no end. To a point where eventually I just learn to ignore the whole deal. So much of it is blatantly based on proving the efficacy of, and talking up, pharmaceuticals to begin with. "Studies show they promote hippocampal neurogenesis!" Oh yeah? I just ate some cocoa beans and it did the same thing! Exercise did too! Wow.

And how about the longterm survival of those cells in the absence of lifestyle changes, and after cessation of treatment? What about longterm side effects. Give me a break. They're nothing special beyond how prolific they've become in modern culture. Most of that is the fault of GPs and a quick-fix attitude purposely overexpressed by a century or so of advertising and media.

>>7654109

Could you explain how come more NT in synapse result in less receptors but the reverse happens with long-term potentiation which says that more neural activity results in more receptors and that results in more NT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_potentiation#Properties

How come two similar processes produce opposite effects?

Monoamine theories assert that neurotransmitter imbalances are at the core of depression, such as an imbalance of serotonin and norepinephrine.

>>7656722

The software can't be executed precisely and correctly if the hardware is not in proper condition.

I'd say it's more of a problem with the signal to noise ratio of certain pathways of the brain. Like shitty internet. Happy people have a fiber link which is pretty much unaffected by the environment. depressed people are on phone cables which were run along with electrical wires for some reason. The environmental factors are attenuating the internet signal, making it hard for the router and the DSLAM to synchronize at a decent frequency. The signal is either lost or transmitted too inefficiently. The brain is stuck in a situation where it just can't get the neurotransmitters it needs.

>>7656769
It seems the pattern of neuronal stimulation as well as the receptors and the ligands involved in both processes are all different. Their mechanisms are likely completely separate and not mutually exclusive.

The Wikipedia article cites some papers which explain that norepinephrine and dopamine can modulate the long-term potentiation process. Seems like they can promote long-term potentiation. Wouldn't surprise me if a depressed person experienced it less often.

As someone who went from top achiever to mediocrity due to laziness and watching all of those not as "gifted" overtake me. I would believe that's it's really what "could have been" so instead I feel sad and sorry for myself all day

>>7657404
People. serotonin is not a naturally occurring molecule within the brain.

>What is the cause of depression?

Dunno about you, but for me it was a fucked up childhood full of emotional, physical and sexual abuse.

>>7658777
You deserved it for being a tripfag.

>>7648230
being sad

>>7650474

Changing my diet played a massive role in improving my mood. More then anything else I have done in my life. I can still experience a depression if I experience too much stress or if I go back to eating poorly.

>>7653937
>>7653866
Wait, it's caused by monoamine receptor upregulation? How does that agree with emergence of anhedonia/depression in excessive recreational stimulant users, and how come stims make people happy/euphoric while high? Since these scenarios are accompanied respectively by downregulation and greater-than-baseline monoamine receptor interactions.

>>7648888
Woah calm down are you also the top of your class in the navy seals?

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>>7658699
>>7658777

What happened to you guys?

>>7658701
Serotonin is synthesized inside the serotonergic neuron out of an essential aminoacid: L-tryptophan. Serotonin is not an exogenous substance.

Tryptophan is also a naturally-occurring substance. It just can't be synthesized by human cells; it must be ingested.

>>7660233
>how come stims make people happy/euphoric while high?

The intensity of the high caused by recreational drugs is proportional to how fast it acts. This is why you snort coke instead of taking it orally. The massive surface area of the lungs makes for an efficient administration route, better than IV even, since it avoids the liver and goes directly to your brain.

People become euphoric when they do drugs and get high. This happens because of explosive dopamine release. Recreational drugs are designed to act upon the mesolimbic pathway, which is the main dopaminergic pathway involved in the motivation and reward system of the brain. Some even consider this to be the "center of hedonic pleasure" of the brain and dopamine to be the "neurotransmitter of hedonic pleasure."

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>>7660233
>>7660463

Natural highs, such as personal achievements, intellectual and athletic accomplishments, listening to good music and having an orgasm, also produce a fast increase in dopamine concentrations. This is caused by input from other regions of the brains and is mediated by a literal pharmacy inside the brain, complete with its own naturally-occurring opioids, cannabinoids, nicotines and amphetamines.

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>>7660233
>>7660464

However, recreational drugs are much more explosive and thus much more pleasurable than a natural high. They bypass the natural neurotransmitters and directly stimulate the mesolimbic neurons, giving the user the reward he craves. They are so potent, they change the circuitry of the reward system in tangible ways. The site where dopamine increases occur actually changes. Instead of providing reward, it generates compulsion. The result is addiction.

Behaviorally-induced highs can that too; gambling, eating, internet use (4chan?), shopping, setting fires, stealing on impulse, violent, antisocial and oppositional/defiant behavior, paraphilic and hyper sexuality.

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>>7660233
>>7660465

Recreational drug use is a classic example of impulsive behavior: the inability to postpone reward. It starts with the desire to get high. Impulses to do drugs (or other things) which will give great pleasure. What usually happens is the drug user starts abusing the substance, causing neuroplastic changes in the brain which condition the behavior, turning it into a compulsion. Suddenly, it's not about pleasure anymore, it's about getting rid of withdrawal symptoms.

Addicted people only care about the drug. The motivation and reward system of their brains have been rewired so that they only get aroused in anticipation to taking the drug. If you try to stop them, they become dysphoric. It's not even the drug anymore; it's the sight of it, the anticipation.

The neurons stop responding to the drug itself and start responding in an conditioned, anticipatory manner, where the user craves the drug and is constantly worried about getting it. Drug seeking and taking becomes the main motivational drive of the addicted. They might not even be getting any pleasure out of it anymore because of the development of tolerance to the drug. They'll have to increase the dose for that.

>emergence of anhedonia/depression in excessive recreational stimulant users

To me, this is the apathy addicted people display when faced with activities unrelated to the drug. They become withdrawn, unable to produce motivation. What starts out as increased dopamine concentrations in one area and the resulting reward ends up becoming a compulsive, all-consuming drive with escalating dosing to try and correct the chronic lack of dopamine.

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>>7660233
>>7660468

This doesn't necessarily happen. If it's infrequent enough, the use will not necessarily trigger the transition to compulsion and addiction. Some drugs are inherently more addicting than others. It may very well be that the first dose of a drug is always the best one, and it might not result in any consequences. However, what impulsive individual takes a recreational drug just once?

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>>7660233
>>7660470

When someone uses a recreational drug, a burst of dopamine gets released quickly and all at once. This is called phasic firing and is the pattern associated with direct stimulation of the neuron. The neurons were at rest so it kind of happens outta nowhere, and with a high frequency too. The other type of brain stimulation is called tonic firing, which is a "background" kind of stimulation that happens occasionally while it is at rest: slow, sustained, controlled and at a constant frequency.

There are prescription amphetamines that are regarded as having low abuse potential because they are slowly released over a long period of time and promote tonic firing, which is far more preferable for therapeutic purposes.

>>7657404
What causes the imbalance?

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>>7660233
>>7660472

Since we were talking about serotonin before, let's talk about ecstasy (MDMA), an hallucinogen.

MDMA causes a rapid and explosive release of serotonin. It is so potent, it quickly results in the depletion of the neurotransmitter. The 5-HT concentrations in synapses reach toxic levels, producing the trip: full on Alice in Wonderland syndrome. In order to cope with the aggressive release of 5-HT, postsynaptic neurons rapidly become less sensitive to it by downregulating their receptors. This is why these things produce such incredible tolerance and withdrawal symptoms in users, sometimes even after single doses.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3327851/

>>7660463
>This is why you snort coke instead of taking it orally. The massive surface area of the lungs makes for an efficient administration route, better than IV even, since it avoids the liver and goes directly to your brain.
Fucking what?

Insufflated substances are absorbed in the nasal cavity into the bloodstream, bypassing the normal liver metabolism that some drugs go through when ingested orally into the stomach; getting it in your lungs is a mistake because it's probably caught by mucous in your windpipe and disposed of into the stomach. It is never better than IV, since IV goes straight to the bloodstream without having to be absorbed by the nasal membrane.

You clearly don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

>>7660474
>Popping more than one molly every two months ever
>Withdrawal
>People using MDMA regularly

For what purpose
Why

This thread is fucking OLD I hope this wont get buried... BUT

/sci/ Is it possible to beat major depression without medication? My best friend lived with me years ago and I found him hanging from a tree in my backyard needless to say I fall under the "severe depression" category with some possible post traumatic stress thrown in the mix. I've been through every SSRI and I don't react well to them (possibly due to drug use, MDMA, cocaine etc.) So SSRI's are out of the question. I was looking at possibly using anti-psychotics but the success rate for treating depression using risperidone seems fairly low.

My question, is it possible to go back to "normal" (No Erectile dysfunction, actual happiness, working short term memory) with out drugs?

>>7660476

Dude, chill. It's 7:15 in the morning where I live.

I was going to give a smoked drug as example but then I changed it to cocaine and probably forgot to change the rest of the sentence.

>>7660501
>Is it possible to beat major depression without medication?

It is possible. This thread features plenty of discussion about it. I don't have any data regarding how likely it is, though.

>>7648230
>my ex

To find out what causes depression, lets look at what causes the reverse;

>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2410470
>The neurochemistry of mania. The effect of lithium on catecholamines, indoleamines and calcium mobilization
>This sensitivity may be related to the activity of calcium channels and to the polyphosphoinositide system. The former system can be regulated by the administration of calcium channel antagonists which have been shown to be effective in the treatment of mania

So, mania has something to do with calcium channels. So does excitotoxicity;

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity
>Excitotoxins like NMDA and kainic acid which bind to these receptors, as well as pathologically high levels of glutamate, can cause excitotoxicity by allowing high levels of calcium ions (Ca2+) to enter the cell,.[1][2] Ca2+ influx into cells activates a number of enzymes, including phospholipases, endonucleases, and proteases such as calpain. These enzymes go on to damage cell structures such as components of the cytoskeleton, membrane, and DNA

So, there's a spectrum - with mania being towards the Excitotoxicity end. Consider the types of drugs that are NMDA receptors - ketamine for example. If the hypothesis that Excitotoxicity = mania = happiness is correct, we'd expect reports of antidepressant effects in patients taking ketamine;

>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3873522/
>Antidepressant effects of ketamine

Also, this is the same mechanism as psychosis;

>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4470624/

So really, it's mania-psychosis at one end of the spectrum - depression, according to this hypothesis, should be caused by calcium channel hypo-activity;

>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9529409/
>Use of calcium channel blockers may increase the risk of suicide

And the Cav2 gene has been shown to relate to depression;

>http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/mp201598a.html

>>7660604

SSRI's function by decreasing the quantities of serotonin in the brain, and result in an increased incidence of suicide attempts;

>http://www.bmj.com/content/330/7488/396
>A significant increase in the odds of suicide attempts (odds ratio 2.28, 95% confidence 1.14 to 4.55, number needed to treat to harm 684) was observed for patients receiving SSRIs compared with placebo

I'm going to get very personal now, and say that I experienced a multi-decade long depression that only ended when I experienced psychotic symptoms. I believe that the data backs up my subjective report. Most anti-depressants increase submissive and passive behavior among patients, and loss of libido is a major side effect - they kill a person.

Objectively, ketamine can be used as a safe antidepressant - but many patients and doctors don't like the side effects, such as psychotic visions. The truth is, such people don't want to be cured - the prefrontal cortex can inhibit the rest of the brain into a natural low-metabolic state that meets the clinical definition of depression. Rank theory suggests that depression emerged as a means of enforcing the pecking order, by making weaker animals submit rather than get injured.

In other words, the vast majority of people with depression are experiencing the hormonal results of being a beta - no one on Earth likes it. PCP induces aggressive behavior by disrupting this hormonal beta-caste mark, which consists of arrays of neurotransmitters at the synaptic cleft - people who normally act like sheep suddenly get it into their heads that they're gods.

Moreover, the pecking order can be used to predict health;

>http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/11/2/20140991

>>7660607

Why? Because the shorter your telomeres on average, the more likely pieces of DNA in one or more cells will break off. Basically, depression and even poor health is caused by bullying. And if what I say is true, than short telomeres should correlate with depression;

>http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0017837
>Average telomere length in the depressed subjects who were above the median of lifetime depression exposure (≥9.2 years' cumulative duration) was 281 base pairs shorter than that in controls (p<0.05), corresponding to approximately seven years of “accelerated cell aging.”

So, not only does bullying make people sad - it kills them. Curing depression might start with the administration of ketamine, and end with therapy that proves to the sufferer that they can in fact successfully dominate a social group.

You can't make submissive, happy people - you're either dominant and happy, or submissive and unhappy. Any society that promotes decreased libido and depression doesn't have a future - societies that protect and reward the individual against losing do have one.

>>7660604

Excitotoxicity does explain why neurons have a negative feedback mechanism which downregulates the number of receptors when exposed to toxic concentrations of neurotransmitters.

>>7660474
MDMA can hardly be considered a hallucinogen. You do get weird peripheral effects from the direct agonism at higher exposures though. Psychedelics (trips) generally work as selective ligands for 5HT-2A with limited or minimal affinity for SERT.
>>7660472
>When someone uses a recreational drug, a burst of dopamine gets released quickly and all at once.
Even with things like nicotine and alcohol? I've definitely never felt euphoric from either, or benzodiazepines. Phenibut's a yes, but that is known to be dopaminergic and the comeup is lengthy and gentle, 4-5hrs to peak. Since stims work as monoamine reuptake inhibitors, are you claiming the effect is from an independent mechanism, or just that this mechanism causes a rapid/punctuated change in postsynaptic concentrations?

>>7660463
>The intensity of the high caused by recreational drugs is proportional to how fast it acts. This is why you snort coke instead of taking it orally. The massive surface area of the lungs makes for an efficient administration route, better than IV even, since it avoids the liver and goes directly to your brain.
I have to say you're dead wrong there m8. Snorting teh dr00gz aims to pull them across nasal/sinus epithelium and bypass first-pass hepatic metabolism. They don't reach the lungs. IV administration avoids first-pass too by immediately sending the drug into systemic circulation; this is never done with cocaine because cocaine is a serious vasoconstrictor. There's a lot more surface area in the GI tract, and I notice more rapid and stronger effects from caffeine taken orally than intranasally (99% oral bioavailability)

Do you have a literature review on the possible role of the K-opioid receptor in depression, or could you give me an executive summary?

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>>7661219

>Do you have a literature review on the possible role of the K-opioid receptor in depression, or could you give me an executive summary?

>http://www.salvia.net/articles.php?id=79
>Man claims salvia cured his 5 year depression

I've also experienced this sudden, massive change in mood after smoking salvia. I went to a castle in the sky, and I got the sensation that it was my castle - I was suddenly forced to accept my identity as a deity. My last words there were "I can't go back like this," while I stood at the drawbridge.

Ever since, I've gotten happier and happier. I've even begun to feel like a kid again - there's a sense of magical mystery to life. I would probably be diagnosed with hypomania and pronoia.

The strange experiences probably make it unwanted by most people with depression, though. I think one of the reasons it was so therapeutic for me was that I could just sit around integrating the experience, mostly by writing. If you were trying to work a job or raise children, the drive to write and focus on the self may get in the way.

>>7648230
I've been depressive for years and never searched medical help with it. I should have, because my life is pretty much in a dead end now. I'm still going to college, a sort of safe heaven because i just need to turn up for lectures and exams, but once college is over, i'm fucked. I have no social skills, no motivation, no fun or happiness, i've mostly given up on life, but due to the lack of motivation i also can't kill myself.
I wouldn't even know what to say to a psychologist except "i'm a broken human being, please fix me".
I seriously doubt that even medication would help me, because even if you lift the depression, there's still that lack of a social life and everything, and i'd just take the new found energy from the drugs to end my life for good.
I'd probably need a support group or something, but i imagine those are full of whiny teenage girls who cut themselves because "nobody understands them", or another extreme: actually depressive people, like middle aged women whose children died, but i still wouldn't be able to connect with them because they're normal people except that one factor that messed their life up entirely.
i don't even have a life

>>7648230
"We are what we repeatedly do." - Aristotle

Everything we know and perceive only becomes conscious in our brain. The world is - literally - what we think

>>7660501
>(No Erectile dysfunction, actual happiness, working short term memory)
That's my problem? I thought I was weak and wasn't depressed.

>>7660501
there is no normal. but yes it is possible: don't let your past define you. imagine how you would be without this tragic experience. fill your thoughts with other stuff (that interests you). those voices in your head are merely echoes of the past. you decide what the echoes of the future will tell you in the very present.

i don't say this is easy, i say it is possible.

>>7661640
>those voices in your head are merely echoes of the past
I have these voices but I think they might be some form of schizophrenia.

>>7661611
>but i imagine those are full of whiny teenage girls who cut themselves because "nobody understands them"
Sounds like you'd fit in m8. Time to take responsibility for your life and stop making excuses.

>>7653808
Hey anon, are you still here?
I'd be interested in talking with you about neuro outside of /sci/ if you are interested?
I'm thinking of finding a platform on which we can have discussion that may be useful. If you are interested, let me know, and I'll set up a throwaway email

>>7661714
>>7653808
http://www.throwawaymail.com/
Also you can get a throwaway here

>>7661727
https://www.guerrillamail.com/
is better

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>>7661219
>MDMA can hardly be considered a hallucinogen.

Well, all I know about recreational drugs comes from what I read. When I studied my material, it described MDMA as an hallucinogen. It seems there are many classes of hallucinogenic substances, but as far as I remember the book didn't really specify. To me, it made sense given how it caused serotonin release. Gotta admit I'm not really up to date on the details.

What is a good source that explores this subject more completely?

>Even with things like nicotine and alcohol?

Nicotine directly and indirectly stimulates nicotinic cholinergic receptors of neurons in the mesolimbic pathway. Specifically, the α4β2 and α7 receptors. Just in case 4chan fucks up my unicode characters, that's the a4B2 and a7 receptors.

>Do you have a literature review on the possible role of the K-opioid receptor in depression

This 2014 article seems like a great starting point:

>The Kappa Opioid Receptor: From Addiction to Depression, and Back
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4258993/

>Secondly, we will show that the KOR is recruited and activated during stressful experiences, thereby contributing to the emergence of depressive states.

And then it cites some reviews which seem even more relevant:

>Opioid receptors: distinct roles in mood disorders
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3594542/

>Dynorphin, stress, and depression.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819644/

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>>7662230
Unicode code points for greek letters work. Nice.

>>7661219
Alcohol influences dopamine release, and more. The mechanism is a little more convoluted than the others.

>>7661714

Sure.

I had a random pseudonymous email on that cock.li service just for this kind of thing. It was saved on my other computer's Firefox, but the machine's dead now. I went and just made another one:

[email protected]

Gotta say the 420blaze.it domain seemed more fitting, but the warning kind of stopped me from choosing it. I wonder if I can set up an alias. Anyway, feel free to message me.

Also, maybe there's a better way to get in touch. What about that Tox encrypted chat thing that got spammed day and night on /g/ ? I've seen people from here and certain other chans using it.

>>7662230
>Well, all I know about recreational drugs comes from what I read.

well, there's your problem. if you're going to be an astronomer, maybe look into the telescope, faggot

>>7648230
Complex social problem that a magic pill will very rarely cure, and I'd argue it's the act of seeking help which uh... Helps.

Pharma would love to push the serotonin theory, and though I don't doubt it plays a part, as I said: complex social problem.

>>7651436

That sounds more like guilt triggered anxiety, mate.

>>7648230
Shit ngf and bdnf, shit levels of serotonin and dopamine and self reinforicing behaviours which lay the chemical conditions for the aforementioned factors, such as obsesive thoughts, lack of stimulation and shit diet (ie. low tryptophan).

/thread

>>7662283
>Alcohol influences dopamine release, and more. The mechanism is a little more convoluted than the others.
Ethanol's main stimulant action comes mostly from its metabolites. Acetaldehyde in the presence of dopamine makes salsolinol, for example. It also spurs the release of histamine from mast cells throughout the body.

This is also partly why longterm alcoholics suffer effects from chronically elevated prolactin levels. I'm a bit wary however of the belief that the spinning feeling and positional (horizontal) nystagmus that goes along with alcohol intoxication, is from changed specific gravity within the inner ear. Chocolate, which also contains salsolinol and is a potent vasodilator, results in the exact same thing when consumed in high levels. Chocolate and alcohol are fairly similar in a lot of ways, really.

>>7648230

Just a chemical imbalance in the brain.

I had a brain tumor removed that was fucking with my hormones (Cushing's disease, for anyone that cares), and the depression was miserable. It relieved itself inside of a week after getting the tumor removed, thankfully.

With that being said, I don't think something pathological like a brain tumor is the only thing that could cause it.

>>7663783
Except chocoloate doesnt fuck with myelination.

>>7662283
>@tfwno.gf
I had never heard of cock.li, I just created an account with them, and I'm sending you an email now.