[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / bant / biz / c / can / cgl / ck / cm / co / cock / d / diy / e / fa / fap / fit / fitlit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mlpol / mo / mtv / mu / n / news / o / out / outsoc / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / spa / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vint / vip / vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y ] [Search | Click for more| Home]

Did you read the aftermath of this? Is it bunk, or is it sti

This is a blue board which means that it's for everybody (Safe For Work content only). If you see any adult content, please report it.

Thread replies: 41
Thread images: 1

Did you read the aftermath of this? Is it bunk, or is it still going? Was it finally peer-reviewed?

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/156393-cold-fusion-reactor-independently-verified-has-10000-times-the-energy-density-of-gas

http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913

>Against all probability,a device that purports to use cold fusion to generate vast amounts of power has been verified by a panel of independent scientists. The research paper, which hasn’t yet undergone peer review, seems to confirm both the existence of cold fusion, and its potency: Even allowing for a massively conservative margin of error, the scientists say that the cold fusion device they tested is 10 times more powerful than gasoline

>Their device works by infusing hydrogen into nickel, transmuting the nickel into copper and releasing a large amount of heat. While Rossi hasn’t provided much in the way of details — he’s a very secretive man,it seems — we can infer some knowledge from NASA’s own research into cold fusion. Basically, hydrogen ions (single protons) are sucked into a nickel lattice (pictured right); the nickel’s electrons are forced into the hydrogen to produce neutrons; the nickel nuclei absorb these neutrons; the neutrons are stripped of their electrons to become protons; and thus the nickel goes up in atomic number from 28 to 29, becoming copper.

>This process, like the “conventional” fusion of hydrogen atoms into helium, produces a lot of heat. The main difference, though, is that the cold fusion process produces very slow moving neutrons which don’t create ionizing radiation or radioactive waste.

>As far as we can tell, the main barrier to cold fusion — as with normal fusion — is producing more energy than you put in. In NASA’s tests, it takes a lot more energy to fuse the nickel and hydrogen than is produced by the reaction. Rossi, it would seem, has discovered a secret sauce that significantly reduces the amount of energy required to start the reaction.
>>
>>6564881
>he’s a very secretive man,it seems

Uh huh.

I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit.

> The research paper, which hasn’t yet undergone peer review

It's pointless discussing this until it has. I'll believe it when I see it.
>>
>>6564882
the thing is that this is a year old, so I was asking if anyone read the aftermath of this.
>>
>>6564883
I'm guessing since we never heard anything about it then no.

Physicists designing an experiment to make matter directly from light, something widely considered so fiddly to be almost impossible to achieve in the lab 50 years ago, made headlines.

This would have made headlines if it wasn't bullshit.
>>
>>6564881
it's a still on going scam. It hasn't been sucessfuly replicated as of a few months ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
>>
>>6564881

>Andrea Rossi was born in 1950 on the 3rd of June, in Milan. In 1973, Rossi graduated in Philosophy at the University of Milan,[6] with a thesis on Albert Einstein’s Theory of Relativity and its interrelationship with Edmund Husserl’s Phenomenology.[7][unreliable source?][8][9]

That's the inventor
>>
>>6564911
They shut down the universities he attended because they were diploma mills.
>>
>>6564911
That's shit. This is more relevant:
>He claimed to have invented a process to convert organic waste into oil for which, in 1978, he founded a company named Petroldragon. In the early 1990s the company was disbanded following accusations of dumping environmental toxins, as well as tax fraud.
>>
>the neutrons are stripped of their electrons to become protons
I'm no chemist, but this didn't make much sense to me
>>
>>6564925

Neutrons can decay into a proton + electron.
>>
>>6564881
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
>>
>>6564965
Reading the paper I came across a few things that bugged me.

The use of the phrase "industrial secret waveform" basically screams "I'm bullshitting you". The powder used was also not described at all. Basically, you could write whatever you wanted in this paper because ultimately people are taking your word for it: there is no indication given that it will be possible to verify this for yourself in your own lab ever. In fewer words: this is just not science. He doesn't even have a reputation on the line anymore because everybody already thinks it's tripe.
>>
>>6564881
>>he’s a very secretive man,it seems
this is why im skeptic about it
>>
>>6564978
it is a hydrogen loaded nickel powder

source (same as mentioned in op)
arXiv:1305.3913 [physics.gen-ph]
>>
>>6564881
Its Crap. Here are two solid reasons why:

1) Nuclear Physics. You cant get a net energy gain fusing nickel atoms. The theory here is very well understood and tested. The fusion barrier is so large, it is preposterous to suggest some kind of catalyst. The energy is simply orders of magnitude too much for any conceivable catalytic process.

2. Economics. And this one is the real kicker for people who cant understand physics. Energy is fucking worth money, and a LOT of it. If this asshole had a working prototype, he could hook it up to the grid, sell juice to the state (pretty much every country in the world allows this, energy is so valuable), and without ever worrying about 'losing his intellectual property rights', quietly and privately amass money. In very short time, he could afford to build another ecat plant. In even shorter time, he could build two more. Then four more. Then eight more...

Instead, he is begging for money and trying to maintain a scientific veil (huge red flag) in order to 'preserve his patent'.

Yeah fucking right. I have a bridge to sell you on some beachfront property in Arizona.
>>
also, it is more likely that his collaborator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_Focardi) developed this all, and this Rossi guy just sweet-talked his way into a deal or something.

>From 1992 he had been working on cold fusion with nickel-hydrogen reactors.

interestingly enough this Sergio man died may 2013.

and the experiment to confirm this e-cat thing happened on june 2013, one month after his death.
>>
>>6565298
the money argument pretty much seals it for me
>>
>>6564893
It did make some headlines, but not all.
>>
>>6564881
It's fake, it's phony, it's genuine bologna. Learn to spot psuedoscience.
>>
>>6565298
>>6565309
have you even read the article?

the device isn't permanent, lasting around 96 hours in both runs

completely disregarding the credibility of the inventors, anyone would seek additional funds to try and improve it

the only thing that bothers me, aside from whether this is even true at all, is that the man who developed this is dead, only his shady collaborator remains, what could he possibly do to improve this?
>>
>>6565314
>did you even read the artice

yes, did you even read my rebuttal? I'll dumb it down to retard-level just in case..

1) its PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE
2) even if it only lasted 96 hours, it would be EXTREMELY PROFITABLE. Nickel is cheap, energy is not. The only reason he needs to ask for money is because is a giant fucking scam.
>>
>>6565309
The money argument isn't great, because in most places it's rather expensive to hook up a generator and sell back. It is almost never worthwhile unless you're making at least a half megawatt, and even that's mostly just generators who burn wastes that they'd otherwise have to pay to get rid of. He's consuming 360 W. So maybe his startup costs are just too great.

But the physics is extremely dubious. In particular, using the temperature readings to try to conclude that fusion is taking place? Pfft. The "division into areas" thing alone is enough to account for experimental error. Show me the presence of a large concentration of some new element where there was none before.
>>
>>6565335
I think you are confusing physics with scientific ethics/standard experimental protocol.

He has absolute no standing with the first. He breaks every rule possible with the second.
>>
>>6564883
Do you seriously think that if we invented cold fusion a year ago you wouldn't see any impact on the society by now?
Was pretty obvious scam
>>
>>6565323
i guess that makes sense

take a guess at explaining the results though

were individuals paid off?
was some component adultered or something?

seriously, what do you suspect happened?
>>
>>6564952
True, but you don't "strip" an electron from a neutron. It's a nuclear process that involves production of an entirely new electron and proton, plus an antineutrino as well.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_decay
>>
>>6564881
Seems legitimate. NASA has proven that Nickel metal hydrides can be fused under THz radiation - the only real issue they have left is finding the best frequency as some produce little energy and some produce so much energy that they burn out the THz transmitter. Once they have that they just have to use existing semiconductor fabrication techniques to make a matrix of diodes that produce that specific frequency of THz radiation much like a LASER pump diode and stick it next to Nickel metal hydride with a support structure that can replenish the hydrogen in the lattice and remove the Nickel. Literally every aspect of LENR (cold fusion) has been worked out, it's just an engineering challenge. Considering the e-cat guy basically said he has a functional version built on the same materials before NASA or anyone else came up with the THz radiation based method it seems like it might be legit.
>>
>>6564893
>>6565346
>implying he wouldn't have been bought out by oil companies or disappeared if it worked
>>
>>6565434
>implying oil companies would produce oil when they have this.
As far as I know oil billionaires are willing to negotiate on the "oil" part when you increase the billionaires part.
You could just use this and sell free energy just below market price and rack in massive profits all legally
>>
>>6565441
>As far as I know oil billionaires are willing to negotiate on the "oil" part when you increase the billionaires part.
And how are the plebs to pay for 10-20 years of oil/gas up front plus the cost of upgrades? There is no way to increase "the billions part" with a more efficient system - it puts people out of work, it provide more bang for the buck and this particular version is so fucking ridiculously more efficient (about $2 worth of material could power your car for 10-20 years) that it would be corporate suicide for even the smallest of oil field operators to go headlong into the market. Not only that but they KNOW global warming is fake and used only to drive up the cost of oil so they have nothing to worry about - they will keep making their billions until the oil has actually run out then they will have the infrastructure ready to go with the next least efficient system (or perhaps an even less efficient one like flying to fucking Europa to harvest methane).
>>
>>6565457
Not sure if trolling or not but oil company X could just sell the energy at a price 1$ per MW cheaper than the same energy produced by oil without paying pretty much nothing for it themselves.
This increases the profits massively, no idea why you think less efficient production is more money

It's the same principle as steam games.
You could sell 1000 physical copies for 60 and get a net profit of 30k or sell 1000 digital copies for 55 and get a profit of 50k. It's not very hard to understand
>>
I wish I could place bets on long term future events like scientific discoveries and wars. Odds that basically unlimited energy will be available by 2300: 5/2
>>
>cold fusion
>859.1°C
>>
>>6565471
>Not sure if trolling or not but oil company X could just sell the energy at a price 1$ per MW cheaper than the same energy produced by oil without paying pretty much nothing for it themselves.
>This increases the profits massively, no idea why you think less efficient production is more money
The technology being discussed is essentially a block of Nickel with a Hydrogen source and the associated equipment to extract the energy. The NASA line of research suggesting it takes THz radiation to stimulate it adds a significant cost (with modern production lines probably about $10,000 per generator in materials costs before markup) but the eCat solution doesn't require the equivalent of a high power LASER pump diode - nobody really knows what it is because the secret isn't out but if it's a legitimate way to produce the same process it's almost gauranteed to be cheaper. The issue however is that either way the only real cost is the up-front one (unless you take the e-Cat route of "don't open this magic box or we will sue you") because the actual materials (Nickel and Hydrogen with very little milling required) are dirt cheap and abundant enough they will remain dirt cheap even if we exploited them for tens of thousands of years without leaving Earth in the process.
>It's the same principle as steam games.
Games are a different set of market dynamics, a player isn't going to code their own game - if the e-Cat thing is real the tech is clearly simple enough that anyone with a connection to YouTube will have the plans and be able to make one. If it's more in the direction of the NASA version the up-front cost is already so prohibitive that the end user isn't capable of affording it save for those in the class of early Tesla car or Prius adopters in terms of expendable cash - and long-term is means zero profit because once you sell the generators that's it, the parts are out and they can be refueled indefinitely dirt cheap.
>>
>>6565506
Why would you sell the generators if that is going to backrupt you.
Just patent it, use the army of oil lawyers to protect it and sell the energy just below market price and enjoy free money.

The machine being discussed doesn't follow any known laws of physics anyway so I don't see a reason why it would be easily made by everyone anyway. For all intents and purposes it's magic machine which isn't copyable unless you buy the secret from the guy, or now the oil companies that bought it.
>>
>>6565536
>Why would you sell the generators if that is going to backrupt you.
>Just patent it, use the army of oil lawyers to protect it and sell the energy just below market price and enjoy free money.
Because energy storage technology doesn't make that applicable to automobiles and power plants are a miniscule portion of the oil industry's profits. The generators would literally have to be in all the cars and are just cheap enough they would have about the same home deployment as solar but would keep getting deployed over time cutting into even the power plant profits. Patents also only last 20 years, then it's a free-for-all.
>The machine being discussed doesn't follow any known laws of physics anyway so I don't see a reason why it would be easily made by everyone anyway.
The process has been pretty well defined in terms of the NASA version using THz radiation to catalyze the reaction (not sure how the e-Cat one is supposed to work, the only indicator I've heard thus far is that the hydrogen is in powdered or pellet form and the hydrogen is pressurized while the output is much lower than the THz catalyzed version). My guess is that if the e-Cat thing is real, which it may well be, it is so simple a process to replicate that the guy is scared shitless someone will reverse engineer it and hence all the secrecy. If he gets funded he knows he can at least have the production equipment in place before someone take the idea.
>>
>>6565548
Why would you need to sell it to cars? Let the poor oil companies do that. Meanwhile you can sell literally all the electricity used everywhere.
20 years is plenty to secure the market and take in the bucks.
As I said they can give up the "oil" for more "billionaire"

>not sure how the e-Cat one is supposed to work
It isn't supposed to work, if it isn't clear enough it was a scam.
The point was that if the magic invention was real it would be public and everyone would know about it.
>>
someone a long while back in one of these threads said that they analyzed his putative fusion products and found out they were isotopically identical to what you'd get if you faked it with natural metals and not at all what you'd get if you really had fusion
>>
>>6565567
>It isn't supposed to work, if it isn't clear enough it was a scam.
The non-scam indicator is that it uses the exact same materials as the legit one NASA only started studying after hearing about and probing the possibility of the e-Cat and managed to prove to actually exist. The question of "is supposed to work" is based on the fact NASA is using THz radiation to kick off the reaction whereas the e-Cat doesn't describe how it does it (but again, claimed to do it before NASA even started on the subject and hit on the same exact source materials). It seems way too coincidental for it not to be real.
>>
>>6564881
Rossi & Focardi have been pulling this shit for decades. It's always the same bullshit. The papers NEVER get peer reviewed, the indipendent confirmations always turn out to be made up.
>>
>>6565596
Eh for me the biggest scam indicator ia the complete refusal to allow independent tests and all the demonstrations being pretty suspect (and simple changes would remove suspicions being rejected).
Thread posts: 41
Thread images: 1


[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / bant / biz / c / can / cgl / ck / cm / co / cock / d / diy / e / fa / fap / fit / fitlit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mlpol / mo / mtv / mu / n / news / o / out / outsoc / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / spa / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vint / vip / vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y] [Search | Top | Home]
Please support this website by donating Bitcoins to 16mKtbZiwW52BLkibtCr8jUg2KVUMTxVQ5
If a post contains copyrighted or illegal content, please click on that post's [Report] button and fill out a post removal request
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows an archive of their content. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.