/Communism/ thread

>>36687862
the system is like that because we weak robots depend on the mercy of productive chad, you shouldnt bite the normie , that welfare feeds us

You cant overthrow the system because the only one who is negative effected are the week with no power, we should be litteraly happy chad gave us at least electicity to shitpost instead of starving us to death, because he can

>>36687862
The fact that you posted this here thinking it might get (you)s doesn't do much to dispel the notion that leftists tend to be unproductive and untalented losers who are just jealous of the chadoisie.

>>36687862
Also, it's kind of funny that communists question society's basic values while resting their entire ideology upon moralism and some masochistic identification with the oppressed.

>>36687979
>we should be litteraly happy chad gave us at least electicity to shitpost instead of starving us to death

Chads are not communist leaders. Mao was a robot, and enjoyed to float

>>36688837

>Moral nihilism is the only alternative to believing in private ownership of the means of production

wew lad

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>>36687862
that feel when I prosper under capitalism

>>36687862

NEETs would not be tolerated in a commie utopia.

>>36687862
yes and by collectivising the farms it will be much better amirite???

>>36689097
I'm sure arm-chain OP thinks that Communism would bring us up to the level of Chad and not drag them and everyone else down.

>>36689010
Marxists fall just short of moral nihilism by never bothering to question their overactive empathy that makes them weep for roadkill.

>>36689097

Most people really, really want to work. They just don't want to work for abusive bosses who treat them like shit and then eat up the better part of the fruit of their labor.

Probably the only NEETs in a utopian communist society would be people disabled by either physical or mental problems.

There would be more than enough resources to sustain them.

>>36689161

Looks like someone doesn't understand utilitarianism.

So what would be the reward for innovation? Yes people like to invent stuff and make advancements but the financial rewards play a big part.

>>36689187
I'm sure the right kind of work would cure many robots here. And I'm not trying to sound like your dad saying you only need responsibility. On the contrary work that leads to flow and a sense of purpose lacks responsibility and schedules. Marxism is flawed but another type of a capitalism might accomplish this in a future era.

>>36687862
Fuck off you commie bastards. My gram grams was in a gulag

>>36689224

Most people have a strong hedonic imperative.

If they have a problem, they'll try to solve it. That's what innovation is good for; solving problems.

Innovation isn't an intrinsic good. It's only a benefit as far as it relates to utility.

A lot of innovation we have in modern capitalist society ends up making things worse.

>>36689203
When I say "Marxists" I don't mean philosophers who have/ are contributing to Marxist thought, I mean pretty much everyone else who calls themselves Marxists. I can guarantee that most of them have no understanding of utilitarianism either.

>>36689224
The greatest innovations haven't been made due to monetary rewards. I'm sure many anons here are using Linux. Newton had no monetary incentive when he was figuring out the laws of physics.

>>36689271

Any form of "capitalism" would involve one class whose claim to the means of production is enforced through violence, and another class who has no realistic choice other than to sell their labor to the members of the aforementioned class, in return for only a portion of the wealth they create, or live in squalor.

>>36689306
And what would you be posting on right now if not for innovations made with money in mind? What would you watch on tv, what music would you listen to?

>>36689338
The internet was made for money?

>>36689368
No, but the reason it's so widespread isnt out of the goodness of anyone's heart.

>>36689338
Monetary innovation does lead to great products but the greatest have been made with passion and other beliefs and feelings that are above it. Capitalism is not the only path. It is the one we needed but itbhas overstayed its welcome. Besides many successful companies today use all their force to steal from those who only had intrinsic motivations. Capitalism will lead to slimmer and faster phones but it might as well destroy us.

How would things like universities work in the communist system?

>>36687979
You know there is almost no neetbux in countries not in Europe and Murica?

>>36689411
>but the greatest have been made with passion and other beliefs and feelings that are above it
But these people were either wealthy themselves or had benefactors willing to to fund their projects with money made in a capitalist system. It's hard to discover penicillin when you're working 12 hour factory shifts.

>>36689442

I don't see there would be any specific challenges for universities.

Professors would teach classes and students would attend those classes.

If you can think of some specific challenges I wouldn't be averse to trying to address them.

>>36689317
Nice commiepasta there. Have any examples of attempts at creating a communist society that didn't try to enforce by violence a system hostile toward the masses? Aside from maybe something on the scale of a village of subsistence farmers, is there any way to achieve communism without simply inverting the power pyramid and assimilating the people at the top (arguably the most talented and intelligent) into a society where mediocrity and mere contentment are not just accepted, but goals?

I'm not sure if that makes sense to anyone but me, it could probably use more punctuation.

>>36689497
Would the state allow anyone who wants to go to university instead of working to do so? Would they allow them to spend the years or even decades it takes to study and become a learned academic?

>>36689516

>Have any examples of attempts at creating a communist society that didn't try to enforce by violence a system hostile toward the masses?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia

>Aside from maybe something on the scale of a village of subsistence farmers, is there any way to achieve communism without simply inverting the power pyramid and assimilating the people at the top (arguably the most talented and intelligent) into a society where mediocrity and mere contentment are not just accepted, but goals?

"Mere" contentment? Contentment is the greatest thing in the world.

The amount of suffering that would be eliminated if everyone in this world were content would be staggering.

>>36689535
Literally look at education in Soviet Union.
You were free even from mandatory military serving while you were studying in university.

So is the soviet union your image of a communist society? Sometimes you lads pick different strains of communism so I'm just trying to understand what I'm arguing against senpai.

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>>36689535

In a democratic communist society there wouldn't be a "state" per se. Each person would be a part of the government.

>Would they allow them to spend the years or even decades it takes to study and become a learned academic?

Sure. Without hoarding and massive wastage of resources to create artificial scarcity as occurs in capitalism, there would be no reason not to.

A great number of students would probably work jobs anyway though because they would enjoy taking a break from their studies to do something physical, like growing corn, tending to orchards, etc.

Many students would probably enjoy being student-teachers, too.

>>36689563
>"Mere" contentment? Contentment is the greatest thing in the world.
Not for actual visionaries and men with ambition.

>>36689627
It had some good traits and a lot of bad ones.
Communism, however, is ideal flawless utopia that can't become reality at this moment in this society.

>>36689627
meant for >>36689589
desu desu origni

>>36689644

>Not for actual visionaries and men with ambition.

You speak as if there cannot be visionaries whose ambition lies in creating contentment.

In an ideal communist state would there be no leadership at all?

>>36689697

What do you mean by "leadership", exactly?

>>36689713
Well, who decides how much food the people get, how long work shifts are, what should be done if there is unrest or violence?

>>36689563
Revolutionary Catalonia failed by being conquered before it could collapse under the weight of how unrealistic it is as an idea.

Contentment is a petty bourgeois ideal, consumerist at its core. The only reason contentment is a goal for a society is because it makes the masses more controllable for the people that run it. I personally think it's dangerous to keep an average mass acting as basically an organ farm and appendage to the machines both for the sake of the environment and because by the time full automation is achieved, the resentful and stupid masses will revolt against the intelligent masters and we'll find ourselves in an idiocracy type situation.

>>36689691
>You speak as if there cannot be visionaries whose ambition lies in creating contentment.
Care to name some? The truly great strive for excellence or to bring change, not merely 'contentment'.

>>36689691
They're called salesmen.

>>36689729

>Well, who decides how much food the people get

The people themselves. Without inefficiencies due to the perverse incentives of profiteering, the amount of food available to the public would be of a massive surplus.

We already know how to produce massive amounts of food easily. Most of the restaurants and grocery stores in your area are throwing away literal tons of unsold food.

On top of that, there are as we speak enormous tracts of fertile land that aren't being used for anything that creates actual value right now. Those tracts could be converted to productive, environmentally friendly orchards in a span of less than ten years.

>how long work shifts are

The workers themselves.

>what should be done if there is unrest or violence?

Society itself. There would still be police tasked with preventing crime.

>>36689741

>Contentment is a petty bourgeois ideal, consumerist at its core.

This is an incredibly Eurocentric perspective. I hesitate to even call it that because there have been many great western utilitarian philosophers like Bentham.

But in the East, contentment + the creation thereof have been seen as the highest virtue for thousands of years, long before capitalism existed.

>I personally think it's dangerous to keep an average mass acting as basically an organ farm and appendage to the machines both for the sake of the environment and because by the time full automation is achieved, the resentful and stupid masses will revolt against the intelligent masters and we'll find ourselves in an idiocracy type situation.

I really don't understand what you're saying here.

If the masses are stupid, there is a cause for that.

>>36689804
>The people themselves
>The workers themselves
>Society itself
You understand the issue with this, yes? You cant just vaguely say 'the people'. What if people are split on these decisions? You cant assume everyone will pull in the same direction. I know having superiors in society leaves a bad taste in some peoples mouths but someone has to have the final word or nothing would get done.

>>36689875

>What if people are split on these decisions?

Give a specific example and I'll try to correct it.

I'm not married to the idea of democracy so if you stump me, I might be willing to jettison it.

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>It's a "true communism has never been tried" episode

Marx called Mexicans lazy, called blacks niggers, and said the true Jewish God was money.

The more you know.

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>>36689516
The talent and intelligence of those in top is a result of good education that they had time for.

What would you think would happen if in the past, everyone could afford to have such education that only the wealthiest 1% had.

What you see as talent and intelligence is merely education and training.


The way we live is by learning. We learn about stuff, we learn things to do. On this place you see what happens when a person is stagnant and don't learn and move and interact with other people IRL. And those who know the importance of mental and physical activity, and practice it realize that leaving this place is beneficial.

The history does not offer many good examples, with the exception of Soviet Union, where after some time also realized the limitations of former feudal and agrarian country.

It is obvious that any kind of socialism has to arise from below, through education and the political ambitions of the 99% to have a decent life. Socialism cannot be imposed from above if the goal is to make it somewhat stable.

In Czechoslovakia in 1953, the industry workers in Pilsen were protesting against the communist party leadership, calling them Bourgeoisie in red cloth, because of mismanagement on the part of the party.

Rosa Luxemburg outlines the problem in Mass Strike and Reform or Revolution pamphlets, stating that the oppressed (workers being exploited for profit) must strive for their own voice in politics, fight for their power. Nobody will do it for them. If they do, the workers will be betrayed.

And today even being a worker is a luxury or unobtainable dream for some.

>>36689837
I don't see why you think eastern values are any more relevant than western, but you should take a look at india's caste system if you think hippy-dippy shit like equality and contentment are the only things you'll find there.

>if the masses are stupid there's a cause for that
Yeah, it's that they're fucking animals. You probably need to get out more, maybe find a blue collar job. Drive around the hood on a Friday night and tell me that these people have any potential to do anything but destroy and consume in a society where they have more power.

>>36689970
Lenin called them negros as well, it wasnt a big deal back then

>>36690014

>I don't see why you think eastern values are any more relevant than western, but you should take a look at india's caste system if you think hippy-dippy shit like equality and contentment are the only things you'll find there.

That's why Buddha railed against the caste system.

>Yeah, it's that they're fucking animals. You probably need to get out more, maybe find a blue collar job. Drive around the hood on a Friday night and tell me that these people have any potential to do anything but destroy and consume in a society where they have more power.

But why are they that way? What CAUSED that?

>>36690014
>>36690059

Also, a lot of western values, outside of utilitarian philosophy, are either predicated on the idea of Christianity and the fear of eternal damnation as punishment for original sin, or extreme egoism and fetishization of psychopathy.

>>36689978
The tldr is basically we just need more education because we're basically meatbags with the same software and he'll, even the same memory card? You seem to just be spouting off talking points you learned this week, try some critical thinking before you talk to anyone about those ideas.

>>36690052
Marx called them niggers, not negros or darkies. Jesus you guys are delusional. Was it also no big deal he said Mexicans were too lazy to develop California and he was glad America won it?

>>36690059
That's an awful buddhocentric view of eastern philosophy.
>what caused that
The fact that humans are animals and we've allowed a cancer to grow out of control. While I don't believe capitalism is entirely meritocratic, do you really believe there are no groups of humans more naturally gifted? You think Jamal rappin' on the stoop at the crack spot would achieve as much as Miles Davis under any circumstances?

>>36690192

>That's an awful buddhocentric view of eastern philosophy.

Buddhism was poised to become a major school of thought in India up until the waves of invasions by Muslim and Christian conquerers shut it down.

>The fact that humans are animals and we've allowed a cancer to grow out of control.

Yeah, we are animals. But that doesn't mean that destructive human behaviors don't have causes that can be addressed.

>While I don't believe capitalism is entirely meritocratic, do you really believe there are no groups of humans more naturally gifted? You think Jamal rappin' on the stoop at the crack spot would achieve as much as Miles Davis under any circumstances?

No. So what? I feel like you're addressing arguments I haven't made.

>>36690232
>more about Buddhism
Seems to me like you're just a Buddhist with a tenuous grasp of Marxism (probably of Buddhism too). I'm not sure why you think pointing out that it COULD HAVE been more relevant makes it more relevant to anyone.
>destructive human behaviors have causes that can be solved
Yeah, more antidepressants and material comfort so we can just breed, eat, and watch TV. Glory be to contentment for your average person.
>you're addressing arguments I haven't made
You said talent and intelligence are just education in training. You're basically asserting if you polish a turd enough you'll have a diamond (Jamal rappin is the turd, Davis the diamond)

>>36690166
Got some sources on this?
He also said the lumpenproletariat were basically useless.