> "If it is supposed to serve a purpose Paganism needs to be an ideology, not a religion, and the gods and goddesses must be seen as a role models to us and not as actual beings of any kind." ~ Varg Vikernes
2014 and there are still European men and women who believe in a Semitic warrior god who demanded the foreskins of his enemies to appease his rage and who they believe watch over them day and night tirelessly observing that they refrain from masturbating, lest they spend an agonizing eternity in the fiery pits of hell in a vat of boiling excrement.
Let's do this /pol/, pagan general. Post inspirational European images and advice. I'll start:
>Worship no foreign gods, serve no foreign masters.
>Serve only yourself and the people who are familiar to you, and dedicate yourself to mend and defend your heimat against all who would oppose you and seek to corrupt your blood and your soil
No, that wasn't a typo. Gods do NOT exist. There is no such thing as a deity. Right now I know what you're thinking. "LOL look ad dis fuggin dtoopid budoruh, I'll just post sum fat doods in hats! Dad'll shud dis fuggin adeist ub!". Well it won't. It won't because I have a key piece of info that you all need to know: Atheism is the true redpill.
Yes, you read right. I know it's hard to swallow, I know it's hard to accept that your pathetic human lives mean nothing and that there is no all-powerful magic man in the clouds that loves you no matter what, but it's a pill that you'll have to take. Only a complete fucking idiot would believe in God in the modern age, anyway. There is absolutely no evidence of any sort that any sort of deity exists, this is a fact, a fact that you religious neanderthals seem to love ignoring.
And I'll stop you right now, you anon that's about to call me a degenerate liberal socialist or maybe even a newfag just because I don't subscribe to your ridiculously antiquated idiotic 'system' of belief. FYI I'm apolitical so all of your generalizing excuses for insults won't work on me. Now I'll just let all of you ignorantly post ad hominem and fedora memes at me as you vomit up the red pill that you can't and will never be able to swallow.
>>39712729 >"If it is supposed to serve a purpose Paganism needs to be an ideology, not a religion, and the gods and goddesses must be seen as a role models to us and not as actual beings of any kind." Disgusting
>>39712729 >the gods and goddesses must be seen as a role models to us and not as actual beings of any kind Well, you're fucked from the start if that's your goal. That's as ridiculous as the "Satanists" who don't really believe in the existence of Satan.
For the most part, acceptance of ideology flows from religious belief, not the other way around. The only people who would follow this sort of atheistic paganism are those who already agree with its message and just want to look cool. You won't win any converts from Christianity unless you present a compelling supernatural narrative to compete with the story of Christ and salvation. For paganism to succeed, the old gods have to be as real as the Christian god is to his followers.
Once you get a dude to believe that Odin is real and is pissed at him for having worshiped a foreign god, he will naturally come to accept a volkisch worldview.
>>39712729 >>39713140 I don't think it matters whether or not the gods exist, as long as you believe in the examples they set.
Paganism shouldn't be a rigid subset of rules and things you can and cannot do, or things you can and cannot believe in like the abrahamic religions. Paganism should be a culture and way of life rather than a religion.
Personally i believe in the gods, and the gods of all other faiths, i think that much can be learned from them, but i stay true to the gods of my european ancestors.
Paganism was always atheistic in that there is no evidence anywhere and every suggestion that the European pagans never believed in actual "gods," ever. They were supersitious in the animistic, sympathetic magic kind of way, but very few but perhaps the most spiritually absorbed would ever say the gods were literal beings and even then it's extremely dubious that anyone ever literally believed Zeus and Thor literally caused thunder and lightening or that Loki literally stole your hair comb or that Ares literally goaded Rome into war.
A god being a literal entity with some sort of universal anthropomorphic persona is a rather uniquely Abrahamic idea. Even the monotheists that preceeded them, the Zoroastrians, were more mystical in their understanding, with Zhura Mazda and Ahriman being dualistic forces rather than literal personalities.
It just goes to show you how utterly fucking perverted the Abrahamic faiths have cause the European culture to become, where there are millions upon millions of men, women, and children that LITERALLY belive a Semitic warrior God interferes with every aspect of their daily lives and is a personal entity present in their corporeal affairs.
Basically, you're welcome to trust that governments and corporations have your best interests in mind and somehow you, the pleb is going to enjoy all of the coming technologic shit, but can you REALLY be sure we're not heading for a collapse? And even if the elites and scientists and such DO make all these wonderful technologies, how the fuck are you going to get ahold of them? Your shitty wage slave earnings?
Seriously, I'm curious how you think you're going to get anything out of this "singularity" when the elites OWN YOU and EVERYTHING AROUND YOU.
There's a theory that argues Judaism came about when the Persians forced Zoroastrianism on their Levantine suzerain, and that the voice of the jealous Yahweh demanding absolute loyalty is really that of the Persian Shah to his new subjects.
Also, Socrates was accused of atheism because he believed the gods were just local legends that grew into myths. This would suggest it was normal to believe the gods were indeed actual beings.
I feel a deep connection and sense of belonging to my native and local landscape.The forests, the trees, the desolate marshlands and fen, the open windswept beaches, the vast, grey sky. I have tried to move away several times, but I always come back to it. There is great beauty everywhere and while I can see it isn't for everyone (the openness can cause a kind of sky-madness and it does feel a bit ends-of-the earth in the winter to non-natives) but this land is mine and I am a part of it. There is a timelessness to it, and when I'm walking I feel I could be a man now, or a man a thousand years ago, walking the same landscape. There is such a great profundity to it, I find it hard to express properly. This is my land. Feels pretty pagan to me.
Technology will become cheap and abundant enough that you can't stop it, it will be everywhere.
Fucking smartphones were unimaginable magical devices a mere 15 years ago, now they are ubiquitous, even in the developing world. YOU CAN LITERALLY HAVE NEARLY THE ENTIRE SUM OF HUMAN KNOWLEDGE AT YOUR FINGERTIPS ALMOST ANYWHERE, AND IT FITS IN YOUR POCKET.
The guys on the left are dressed up in queer dress that sets them apart from the "profane" masses, separating themselves from their "own" people. They are foreigners in their own lands, because they belong to the Semitic god of degeneracy and not their own people's local myths and traditions.
The ones on the left are dressed normally for their local culture, engaging in and venerating their communities and people actively.
>Three questions seem to arise here. Should we return to the faith of our ancestors? Should we save Christianity from itself? Or should we overcome both Paganism and Christianity with a futuristic religion that would set space conquest as our "Manifest Destiny?" (I'm leaving aside the question whether we should stick to materialistic Modernity. The absence of Transcendence of the latter obviously argues against such an option. If the status quo was a viable one, our legacy would be guaranteed.)
I'm the technocrat and I think science should be our religion, it's certainly mine. And I mean that, I'm not an atheist at all, I believe in the scientific method and the pursuit of advancing technology on a spiritual level, as if it's the entire purpose of humanity and indeed the universe.
I mean, WE'RE SELF AWARE MATTER. In my religion, the only point to being self aware matter is to continually push your ability to manipulate matter and your own experience of the material universe.
Seriously. It's my religion, and it should be yours too.
Pagans are life's underachievers, yet feel a smug sense of authority if they can shut themselves away from the world at night and wish bad things upon people while staring at a lit candle through the smoke of cheap incense. In their mind's eye, they look like the cast of characters in a Whitesnake video, and feel like an otherworldly warrior if they have a decorative sword from the Franklin Mint on display above their collection of Budweiser limited edition NASCAR cans. They shirk responsibility and refuse to try furthering their own lives through hard work and accomplishment, believing instead that they may bend the will of the universe to attain higher footing in life. And when they're not spinning their tales of glory and magic, they're preparing your Double Whopper.
>>39713504 I can't speak for the nonclassical religions but for them when they looked at the sun they saw both the sun and Helios, when they looked at the sea they saw both the sea and Poseidon. For them the gods were real, the supernatural was the only explanation they had for the natural they couldn't understand. And for the Norse and celts, it was probably the same, they built shrines and temples for gods they believed were real, not for abstract ideas or "inside jokes" that would be even more crazy if they did it all ironically.
again, like I said that's all well and good but you're putting a massive amount of faith that a solar storm isn't going to come within the next 10 years and fuck up the sattelite grid and all the unshielded electronics on earth, or some other global catastrophe, or the basic fact that governments and corporations might just completely lock up those technologies for themselves or actively use them against you without you having any say in the matter.
Paganism is at least the basis for having a sane and meaningful society if all that dream techno doesn't happen just how you like it.
And frankly, techno-spiritualism or whatever you're pushing isn't going to defeat the Abrahamic monster in Europe, but Paganism can give all the regular people a new (old) way of life that builds communities and families in a healthy and self-sustainable way.
Look at my pic. How many years do you think it will be until humanity has complete control over the weather? 50 years? 100? Think about it. Think about how much insane amount of energy is in our own atmosphere, and tell me honestly if you think humans are going to be able to control nature any time soon....
We have no evidence of this at all. We DO have evidence that they believed in sympathetic animism, but we have copious proof to the contrary that they believes they were literal creatures, as evidenced by the fact that the myths were constantly changing, and sometimes conflicting myths were told side by side. There was never any central pagan dogma anywhere in europe or northern africa until monotheism established "rules" of who "god" was.
To the pagans, it was "real" in the sense that they has an animistic spiritual understanding of nature, but from the evidence, there's no reasonable way to say that any significant number of pre-Abrahamic pagans believed in the gods literally.
I have a hard time taking modern pagans seriously for a number of reasons. First and foremost is the complete lack of anything resembling a formal, organized faith, it has no priesthood to oversee the growth and maintenance of the faithful, it has no holy book which details it's theology, rituals, prayers etc, there's no temples/churches/whatever where they can congregate and build a community and Paganism has been non-existent in the west for centuries so modern pagans have no foundation within society to structure or build their faith upon.
Secondly is the fact that many Pagans to me seem to be embracing it not because of a genuine sense of belief but because they hate Christianity. I rarely see Pagans discussing their faith in the same way Christians do, the only time they seem to enter any sort of religious discussion is to bash Christians for worshiping 'a kike on a stick'. The whole thing seems like an anti-Christian fad that is going nowhere because Jesus bashing is all they have going for them.
>>39713868 But science is just a model we made based on what we can observe. With that model, we can do a lot of things, like send a rocket to space, but the model itself explain nothing about the true nature of its basics.
Do you doubt it? Okay, then explain to me what an electron actually is. (and please dont tell me its a tiny ball of matter because thats stupid, thats just used to represent the model in a graphic form). When you do that, you can try to follow by explain to me what electromagnetic forces actually are, or even more hard, gravity.
Dont come up with mathematical models because again, those are models based on what we can observe and nothing more. I am asking for the ultimate nature of those things.
Well, the fact is you cant.
So my point is: Science is useful if you want to control nature, but it explains absolutely nothing.
There are some theories which try to explain the actual nature of things, but with no empirical evidence, and therefore, they require more faith that almost any religion.
And dont take me wrong, i love science and its practical applications, it must be beyond any dogmatic doctrine. But usually people doesnt understand what "science" means.
Think about it: Can a dog perceive a human being in the same way as us? Of course not, because his perception is limited by his cognitive abilities.
As far as we know, we could have the answers to our questions in front of us. We could even have a superior form of existence in front of us. And still, we wont perceive it, in the same way the dog doesnt perceive humans as they are.
If you believe in decentralisation of power, you should consider yourself cultural pagan at least.
Motivation: there's lots of Gods and Goddesses in paganism, meaning power is balanced between various characters. This in term symbolises representatives you pick to feel akin towards, thus decentralisation which balances power and thus creates harmony.
>First and foremost is the complete lack of anything resembling a formal, organized faith, it has no priesthood to oversee the growth and maintenance of the faithful, it has no holy book which details it's theology, rituals, prayers etc
Correct, paganism isn't an ideology for fucking learned helplessness and being a general fucking retard. It's for people to make up their own fucking minds about what they believe, and it's the responsibility of the parents and the community to maintain meaningful traditions and mythos so that there is an attractive identity available to be grown into by the youths.
>there's no temples/churches/whatever where they can congregate and build a community
Bullshit, you're just a fucking idiot. Read some history for fucks sake or look at where and how neo-pagans congregate and hold services today, dipshit.
>Secondly is the fact that many Pagans to me seem to be embracing it not because of a genuine sense of belief but because they hate Christianity.
Again, bullshit and you're fucking stupid. Every pagan I've met, ever single fucking one, has become a pagan because they wish to return to a more naturalistic and empowering spiritual practice that venerates strength, wisdom, and power and not subservience and shame.
> I rarely see Pagans discussing their faith in the same way Christians do
You don't actually know any, so that's not surprising.
>, the only time they seem to enter any sort of religious discussion is to bash Christians for worshiping 'a kike on a stick'.
Hint: real lfe is not /pol/, except maybe for you.
>The whole thing seems like an anti-Christian fad that is going nowhere because Jesus bashing is all they have going for them.
Nope, you're just a fucking retarded Christian who wants to get on your Crusading high-horse about "thum dumb bagans and thur rebellious shit, they need them some Jesus!"
> I am asking for the ultimate nature of those things.
Yeah but you just made up the idea of "ultimate nature" yourself. You just imagined that idea up. The universe has no need for "ultimate meaning" but you do because you're nothing but self aware matter trying to understand why the fuck you're aware of yourself.
That's the entire reason that there is a question about what "ultimate nature" is - because you thought to ask.
And what's the answer?
Only science will tell. We can only know what we can observe. There is nothing else.
>>39718050 Paganism shouldn't really carry a priest class. There were shamans and Druids, but these were probably just learned men of their societies and even worked as lawyers and fishermen for example in the mean time. Rarely are there many wise people in a pagan community today. At least the ones we see like on youtube. Always hippies of some denomination, imo.
>The whole thing seems like an anti-Christian fad that is going nowhere because Jesus bashing is all they have going for them. Isn't this a given, taking to mind that the western world is a Christian world which they reject.
>>39718681 Good. Rather an honest god that don't wrap itself in lies, but shows the world what horror it is and the world that allows for such horrors to be present. Horrors only a dishonest Yahweh would create.
Religion (n.) Middle English (originally in the sense ‘life under monastic vows’): from Old French, or from Latin religio(n- ) ‘obligation, bond, reverence’, perhaps based on Latin religare ‘to bind’.
Faith (n.) mid-13c., faith, feith, fei, fai "faithfulness to a trust or promise; loyalty to a person; honesty, truthfulness," from Anglo-French and Old French feid, foi "faith, belief, trust, confidence; pledge"
Pagans believe that the Earth is alive in the form of a God and Goddess. They can trace their religion's roots back to their ancestors in the 1960s, who basically made up a load of shit about what they imagined druids to be like then called themselves pagans.
>>39718714 An electron is an elementary charged particle, made of waves. I'm sorry my answer wasn't winged sky beast but you'll just have to deal. Just because we don't know everything about a subject doesn't mean we get to mystify it. Your entire argument about science is semantic bullshit. Models come directly from observations, are you just trying to say that there is a disconnect between our observations and an underlying action? That's a reasonable position to take, before the discovery of quantum mechanics we were blind to the inner workings of much of our world. If that's what you're saying, that's fine, but it's coming across as "how can you even SEE man, really, like think about it. Your eyes aren't even like, real man."
>>39718636 You got my point. But I am not that sure about the science giving us the ultimate answers to everything, because as you said, we can only know what we can observe, and our perception and cognitive skills are limited, even if we perceive as humans that we are the ultimate form of existance. So for me, the science is only for practical uses, and not for trascental questions. For me, the simpel answer to those questions is that there is no answer, but as always, some people want to know everything, or fool themselves thinking they do.
As for me mading up the idea, yes, so what? I am not sure if you are trying to imply something with that.
If you define matter as "everything which exists", then yes, i am only matter. But again, you dont know what "matter" is.
Also, nobody knows what conciusness is, althought there are some interesting theories, for example the ones of Stuart Hameroff.
>>39718905 Christians believe that the Earth was created by some loony guy in 7 days, only inhabited by animals and 2 humans. They can trace their religion's roots back to some jewish cult 2014 years ago, who basically made up a load of shit about what they imagined to be the true religion, and then called themselves christians.
>>39719020 >mudhut dweller >implying the first christians didnt live in mudhuts >then the renaissance brought back old roman and hellenistic art and architecture, who were pagans in the majority of their time >wants to call pagans mudhut dwellers >implying every pagan is a germanic pagan
>>39718958 I am mystiying nothing, and if you think i am, you are getting me wrong. I will make it simple: I think we will never be able to get even close to understand everything, because again, for the third time, even when we perceive ourselves as the ultimate form of evolution and even as the most important thing in the universe, our perception and our cognitive skills are limited.
So, its not that there is a dissconection between our perception and what actually happens, but I think that there are things between that we just cannot perceive.
And you can say, yes, and 500 years ago we could not perceive infrrared light. Okay, maybe i am a little pesimistic. If you want to have faith i can respect that.
>>39718050 >it has no priesthood to oversee the growth and maintenance of the faithful
Individual organizations have this. Most pagans do not belong to organizations, though.
It's rather well organized in Scandinavia, especially Iceland. It's also quite well organized in the United Kingdom, especially some of the Old Druidic sects that have been around since the 1700s (some claim earlier), but even a few Odinic groups are well organized, such as the Odinic Rite which has what you describe.
Of course, on 4chan, just like everything else, most people are going to be the loner types that don't go out and join in their communities.
>it has no holy book which details it's theology, Paganism doesn't have a holy book and it never has and never will. >rituals, prayers etc Rituals and prayers differ from organization to organization and individual to individual. It's worthy to note that most rituals and prayers in Christianity aren't Biblical.
>there's no temples/churches/whatever where they can congregate
Yes there are, for the organizations that do get together, there are temples, churches and whatever. In fact, in Europe, there are "temples" to congregate in that predate Christianity by thousands of years, and were still used as "temples" for "saints" during Christian times.
>>39718640 The Vedics carried a priest cast and were purely Pagan as well. I seems like you have no idea what you are talking about let alone the connectivity of all ancient religions, which is Satanism (not the fake Jewish kind.)
Yeah, but the entire idea that "knowing everything" is something that we should even care about is asinine.
All that should matter is advancing science and technology to the most extreme extent possible and enjoying the journey to wherever that takes us and de everything in our power (which we're hardly doing anything now) to keep us from fucking everything up.
All this "what lies beyond" buillshit is fucking imbecilic in a social context. If you want to trip on hallucinogens or meditate for hours and reach some "higher conciousness" then go right the fuck ahead. You might even share your experiences and we might all enjoy hearing what you have to say.
But thinking that it's somehow "important" and that society as a whole should fucking care AT ALL about this dumbass "what lies beyond" nonsense is idiotic and you need to stop thinking it's everyone's responsibility to sit around and try to help you figure out what YOUR fucking imagination means to THEM.
>>39719262 >Paganism doesn't have a holy book and it never has and never will. Only because the various pagans were largely illiterate, and the priest caste didn't have to worry about consistency. There was nothing else really stopping druidists from having a holy book of their own, nor Germanics. The only reason the Hellanics didn't is because of the complete absence of consistency, but there were still many of the varied accounts committed to writing.
Volkischness is material in the sense that it's about having a healthy and sustainable homeland and community of people - that's material. It's spiritual in the sense that presenving the blood and the soil is about venerating the sanctity of the human experience, and achieving balance and harmony with one's lifestyle and relationships and homeland.
>>39719513 >Only because the various pagans were largely illiterate
Everyone was largely illiterate until very recently.
>and the priest caste didn't have to worry about consistency.
Oral traditions are highly consistent. In the 1960s, illiterate Italian "peasant poets" were capable of reciting long epics such as Dante's Inferno and the Iliad in full and in complete accuracy, and it is believed that the tradition dates to the Renaissance.
>There was nothing else really stopping druidists from having a holy book of their own, nor Germanics.
Because there was no holy book or holy works. There were no holy books or works for the Greco-Romans either, just collections of oral myths eventually written down.
>The only reason the Hellanics didn't is because of the complete absence of consistency, but there were still many of the varied accounts committed to writing.
They didn't because they didn't have a concept of holy books, that is a Semitic/Abrahamic concept.
>>39719384 I have no idea of why you assume all those things. What lies beyond is important for ME and i am not trying to convince anyone to be interested on it or to help me at all. I am just arguing with people who apparently think that "science" or so-called "science" will lead us to the absolute knowledge. And as you said yourself, thats bullshit.
As for the practical uses of science and technology, is what i am saying, thats the true beauty of the thing. So in fact we are agree at that point.
Anyways i must say i am not agree on how we use that technology. But that's another debate.
>>39719296 >The Vedics carried a priest cast and were purely Pagan as well. One exception mentioned turns into >I[t] seems like you have no idea what you are talking about Also you're talking about Indian society. In European societies there rarely was a priest class, as mentioned. My guess to why that is because religion was fluent, not static as the early Catholic Church at large was.
Ha-Satan is the full title in Hebrew, I trust you knew that.
>>39719362 The essential difference is that the cosplaying and roleplaying nerds, while annoying and immature, know that they're just playing a little fantasy game, whereas the Wiccans actually believe that their magic wands and elvenlore are real things. This often leads to a painful disillusionment, when a Pagan realizes that he or she cannot pay the rent or find a job by casting a magic spell.
yes, "what lies beyond" is actually a central theme to the human experience, even so called avowed atheists have it, they just subvert it with convincing themselves that science is the answer to all.
now, it might seem like I've been saying that very thing, but no, what I'm saying is that making "what lies beyond" some sort of perverted central purpose of living (like for example how the fucking dumbass Abrahamic imbeciles do) is unhealthy and insane.
Science and technology will allow the human race too sit around and think up weird spiritual shit all they want, in fact eventually it might become so powerful that we can simulate entire universes and explore alternate realities.
But get this: even if we transcend into some virtualized species that lives inside quantum computers as beings made up of intersting fluid patterns of sub atomic particles in simulated universes, we'll STILL question what lies beyond.
That's Goedel's incompleteness theorem at work on our minds, and it will never go away.
Embrace it, but don't make it a perverse religion and social institution like the fucking filthy Abrahamics do.
>>39712942 I would argue that the traditional definition of God does not exist. Too me Christianity and other religion, if you really think about it, is about aliens, not gods. Call them Gods or deities or aliens it really doesn't matter. Religion is about whatever the fuck these other things on our planet were. That's why I can believe in Jesus and Muhammad and Thor, but not give a fuck about what any religious leaders in society have to say. Something weird definitely happened, but the standard definition of God is wrong.
>The essential difference is that the cosplaying and roleplaying nerds, while annoying and immature, know that they're just playing a little fantasy game, whereas the Christians actually believe that their rosaries and crucifixes are real things. This often leads to a painful disillusionment, when a Christian realizes that he or she cannot pay the rent or find a job by prayer or sending money to televangelists.
>The essential difference is that the cosplaying and roleplaying nerds, while annoying and immature, know that they're just playing a little fantasy game, whereas the Christians actually believe that their rosaries and crucifixes are real things. This often leads to a painful disillusionment, when a Christian realizes that he or she cannot cure cancer or solve world hunger by prayer or sending money to televangelists.
>>39720127 Perhaps it's just his conspiretard usage of it, then. Implying there's some connexion between a very particular modern drawing of a dragon and the shape of a continent, and that it actually means anything.
>>39712729 Honestly man idc what you do, but if your only argument of why I should be a pagan is because you and some musician say so, then its not much of an argument.
Same thing with "oh but your ancestors believed in that". Yeah, I'm sure my ancestors believed in a lot of crazy shit, doesn't mean I need to.
Also the argument that Christianity is from Middle East and therefore invalid isn't really a good argument, and isn't applied to other things like the Arabic number system. What? Do we also need to go back to Roman numerals to prove how white we are?
>>39719911 Have you read 1984? It made me thought about how important is what we believe and how important is the actual reality. Even more, is there a reality beyond what we believe? Based on what i said, I would say yes, there is a reality beyond what we believe, but in some situations, what we believe is even more important for practical purposes. So, if someone wants to have faith in something and that faith is altruistic and makes him do things i consider good, i have literally nothing against that, as long as he admits he could be wrong.
Speaking of Varg in the OP, for anyone who is interested in a nice introduction into and explanation of the benefits of paganism, I'd highly recommend reading the "Paganism" series linked to here, it is what got me into Paganism a few years ago and convinced me it was the most Volkisch spiritual path. http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/ Scroll down a bit for the links.
>>39720287 There is quite a big difference between larp faggotry, like pretending you genuinely believe Thor makes the thunder, and understanding that the old gods are excellent racially appropriate egregores and that rituals strengthen the folk and their bond with the ancestral past
>>39721113 Like Thor making the thunder, and generally in the Gods themselves. Seems more like you're mocking the ancestors by only paying lip service and deciding their beliefs aren't good enough for you.
>>39720953 >can you make us all a diagram like that dragon one but to illustrate how you became such an aspie retard? Mister Ad Hominem, how are you today, what is like being intellectually inferior to everyone you argue with? I bet you have tiny penis too, that's why you're a cunt to everyone, kek
>>39721166 Read the Bhagivad Gita. One Hindu sect follows that Vishnu is All, and the other "Gods" are just aspects of Vishnu. Krishna says this to Arjuna when Arjuna asks what happens when people pray to the other Gods, and gets the reply that, "These prayers are all to me, but in different respect."
>>39721007 >Absolutely obnoxious, but that doesn't change you being a deceptive loser, who clearly thinks everything is out to get him. Damn you have no originality as I previously suspected, you are literally repeating now what I said to you early, faggot
>>39720848 >just supreme beings >beings >creating this world Do/did they live on this world? Or just visit for a bit? Where did they come from before creating this world? When you start thinking about what they actually say "God" is, how can they be anything but alien?
>>39721334 An enemy is your equal, seeing that we are not equal, I do not treat you as such, therefore you are nothing to me, I would not even engage you in argument, which I would utterly annihilate anything you have to offer.
>>39721468 >which I would utterly annihilate anything you have to offer. Apparently not, otherwise you would have done so by now. You continue to make excuses. If you really felt like I wasn't worth your time, you wouldn't have been posting all this time trying to pretend you aren't cripplingly stupid.
>>39721342 They are the fathers and mothers of this world. You wouldn't consider yourself to be Alien to your kid would you, just because say you don't live with your kid. Most ancient religions describe some sort of vacuum before there were something. Hence Gods are just as much as you part of this world. They got the means to leave it, that's all.
>>39721610 >I can't defend myself, so I'd rather whack you with a switch Are you black? Because that's nigger behaviour. Again, you keep saying "nuh-uh! I totally know what I'm talking about, but i just won't prove it for some reason!"
Produce one shred of evidence that pagan societies believed the gods were literal creatures. You won't find any.
At most they were animistic personifications of natural processes and mythical heroes, and frequently based on actual tribal rulers or famous warriors.
The DID however absolutely believe in sympathetic animism, that is, the idea that humans can coax the forces of nature to behave in desirable ways through certain behaviors or occurrences.
But did they believe in the gods literally? No. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that was a widely held belief in any pagan society, and in fact extant pagan societies never touched by western monotheism don't believe in actual literal gods either.
>>39721736 No, I think being unable to express yourself with words, instead wanting to censor with force is nigger behaviour. Certainly a mark of lower intelligence. If this didn't apply to you, you would have presented an actual defense of your tripe rather than name-calling.
Answer me this: Can you actually defend the crap on the site you linked? And if so, prove it.
>>39721798 >The DID however absolutely believe in sympathetic animism, that is, the idea that humans can coax the forces of nature to behave in desirable ways through certain behaviors or occurrences. So yes, they worshiped, offered sacrifice to, and believed they could affect the world by adherence to the previous.
Apparently you're too fucking retarded to understand the distinction between believing in sympathetic spiritism/magic and believing that there is a literal man in the sky that hits his special hammer and thunder happens.
No surprise you're too fucking stupid to understand this, you're probably an Abrahamic.
>>39721560 Giving birth is different than creating. If you are the only one that can leave when you want then you are something different, above beyond, and more than a parent. >You wouldn't consider yourself to be Alien to your kid would you I personally wouldn't, but I can't create and leave worlds.
Alien: Belonging to, characteristic of, or constituting another and very different place, society, or person; strange. See Synonyms at foreign. A person from another and very different family, people, or place. A person who is not included in a group; an outsider. A creature from outer space: a story about an invasion of aliens. Ecology An organism, especially a plant or animal, that occurs in or is naturalized in a region to which it is not native.
Gods are by definition alien. There is no real debate on this issue. Stop trying to pretend that there is.
>>39721178 the gods are more than the myths, they represent the ideals of the people they belong to, the characteristics and traits they hold in high regard. The stories our ancestors told, illustrated the people they aspired to be.
Odin sought knowledge and wisdom at any cost, why would anyone who reveres Odin's character wish to remain ignorant about the true nature of thunder.
If you're familiar with the concept of egregores you will understand how deities still possess power even for one who does not believe they literally exist.
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