As someone who's going to be poor in the future why should I support capitalism? Even if socialism made everyone worse off I still would be better off realitive to others and therefor be higher in the social dominance hierarchy. However when I'm poor as a janitor even if regulations end up getting me enough to have a home, car, and food I will still be considered low in the dominance hierarchy.
>>140541906 That's because our definition of poverty is extremely narrow. I'm not considered poor under statistics because am fed. Most of these people "lifted out of poverty" don't even make $20,000 USD/year.
>>140541638 Maybe you should just have a shred of morality and critical thinking and understand that capitalism rewards those who are most deserving. And if you are such a sower piece of shit untermensch that you support socialism out of spite then you should kill yourself.
>>140544522 I was born early so everything about me got fucked up a little. Have social autism, short, weak, and can't really think fast. I can think and stuff but it takes me a long time which you can't do on IQ tests.
A poor person in a capitalist society is still 10x better off than 99% of the people in a communist society. In Venezuela they have bread lines while in America our problem is poor people being too fat.
>>140544697 Well thankfully I was born a week late, so I don't have any of that shit going on with me. Are you skinny and feminine? Also, sometimes if you score higher in the other areas of the test, just not in the time limit they just detract a few points for slow processing.
>>140545487 >are you skinny and feminine Not really skinny but im ultra-feminine
>Also, sometimes if you score higher in the other areas of the test, just not in the time limit they just detract a few points for slow processing. Without time i get about 95 but that's bullshit because everyone knows being able to think fast is an important factor. I can't do basic math or science im not disputing the IQ test.
>>140545409 I know I would be poorer under communism, but I still like it since everyone else would be even more poor compared to now
>>140545409 >A poor person in a capitalist society is still 10x better off than 99% of the people in a communist society. No, we were much better off in a communist society actually.
You're thinking of a poor person in a capitalist society on your (colonial empire) side of things, not on everyone else's (colony) side of things. Of course Americans will be better off, but for that, countries like mine have to be ruined.
>>140545820 So I haven't taken an IQ test I can really recall. I think I might have done CATs (Cognitive ability test) because sometimes the whole year will do it, and my teachers game me the impression that I did pretty well in them, what are the time limits on them?
>>140547032 >we were much better off in a communist society actually We weren't in a communist society moron, Yugoslavia lived off of gibs from USA and USSR in exchange for not joining either of the two Also, the only reason things were "better" than in the rest of the Eastern Bloc was because elements of free market were allowed here (personal property, small to mid range private business, competitive banking etc.) almost to the point of it being market socialism. The only things that were nationalized was big industry and big business and even then only to make sure all the parasites and useless people would have jobs forever and thus not rock the boat.
Yugoslavia was like the least communist of the communist countries (seeing as how it fell apart before China went full state capitalism)
>>140547553 I see, selling all infrastructure to the Germans to repay imaginary debts and then still paying them for the privilege of using it, despite our own fathers building them with their own hands, and never repaying the debts because due to creative accounting we're only repaying the interest which gets bigger every year, is clearly superior to the ebil gommyz.
Remember when we had an actual heavy industry? Agriculture? Production and export of commercial goods?
>>140547798 Yeah, the timing would get me, I CAN think fast enough, but I like to take my time and my strong suit is Verbal reasoning and Numerical skills, maybe working memory but I haven't taken that test before, the points detracted for time might bring my score down to high 110s low 120s from the low 130s (I recently took the CAT again but without being timed).
What you speak of isn't capitalism, its corporatism and the protectionist ideology stemming from socialists and the wealthy elite looking for monopolies. And these people thrive in socialist nations not so much in capitalistic ones.
US with high numbers socialist progressives huge wealth gaps.
Hong Kong or Switzerland low number of socialist progressives, low wealth gap.
You do t have to support it, just like animals dont support natural selection and predation. Capitalism seperates the wheat from the chaff, unfortunately, you are chaff. At least the people who are better than you dont see you as a threat, or they would not want you around.
>>140549081 until a way to end scarcity is discovered, capitalism will always be superior to socialism because capitalism allocates scarce resources in the most effective way for the entire society
socialism relies on people (who are notoriously retarded) to run something as huge and complex as an economy manually; millions of years of evolution have made people inherently selfish and thus the people who control the allocation of resources manually (as in socialism) will ensure that they get the best of everything
if the only way your ideology can work is to massacre countless millions of people, then its a shit ideology
>>140549081 You're talking of globalism, where international companies set up factories in third world countries and they make about 60cents an hour and the poor people aren't seeing any benefit, is this what you're on about?
>>140549542 >allocates scarce resources in the most effective way for the entire society Except people are literally starving while massive amounts of processed food are being thrown away (much more than it would take to feed the entire world multiple times, look up the statistics), that's not even counting the unprocessed food. >if the only way your ideology can work is to massacre countless millions of people, then its a shit ideology So capitalism is a shit ideology, gotcha. >>140549687 Yes, globalism is the endgame of capitalism, and now that it's undergoing its historical fusion with "communism" you guys still defend it.
It's especially funny when some idiot like >>140549542 who lives in a country that's on the ass end of capitalism thinks it's somehow going to better with MORE capitalism despite the entire system being designed so that his country always stays on the ass end on the "global market".
We still haven't privatized air I think, maybe that will finally make us competitive enough.
>>140550079 I'm a janitor in a rich neighborhood and get no respect. I make 20K a year while my neighbors make 120K a year. I live on a shack beside the road connecting to a gated community. If I lived in communist russia where everyone including me made 18K a year I'd be seen as their equal.
>>140550414 Go learn a skill then. Use your time to volunteer if you have to. No, you'll just waste your time on the internet never even trying while shouting "what am I supposed to do!" Your forefathers spit upon you.
>>140550217 Yeah, except in every measurable metric these 'evil capitalist exploiters' raise the standard of living. That 60cents an hour is usually more than DOUBLE what most of them would of been earning, usually most people are subsistence living before these factories come along, then as time goes on and more factories move in to exploit "the evil cheap labour" wages start to rise, standard of living gets higher still, more local businesses start to appear..
The amount of positive coming from these 'evil exploiter' far out weights any negatives. And compare that to the complete failures of communism.
How are those food stocks in North Korea and Venezuela?
>>140551149 There it is. "What am I supposed to do". Are you an adult? Pick some trade at random if you can't decide. They're good pay. Whatever it is, the hardest part won't be the work itself, but making a goal and sticking to it. At this point, digging yourself out of the hole you're in will be the most dreadful feeling you've ever made yourself feel, and by the end of it you will have a future. >pirates Hey, you've got something cool in your blood at least.
Socialism, and its predecessor Communism are inherently flawed because thier ideologies hold 2 false premises: 1)That mankind can create a stareless society. This is impossible, since out of anarchy, or a collective, a functioning body responsible for the distribution of the means of production must be established. This body functionally becomes a state, while the division between the members who are operating within the body and the ones who are left out begin to seperate, they establish a heirarchy. 2) A state, or even an anarchy, cannot become classless, human beings are far variable in genetics, thought processes, and abilities which naturally establish a pecking order. Equality of oppurtunity is also impossible to achieve, on account of those same reasons. Humans also express a certain degree of selfishness, which jeopardizes a society without conflict between individuals, furthuring the inability to esablish a society without classes or heirarchies.
>>140551881 Because, unlike in communism where you have no choice but to work for factory x for a set pay, in capitalist societies, individuals can in fact refuse to work for too little pay and find better jobs instead
>>140552142 Is capitalism inherently flawed because it believes in the ridiculous concept of the invisible hand?
Or is this actually by design, and the invisible hand is a concept only sold to those "not in the know" so that the system can self-perpetuate for the benefit of the people controlling the invisible hand?
>>140551629 >Yes, globalism is the endgame of capitalism, and now that it's undergoing its historical fusion with "communism" you guys still defend it.
There is globalism as defined by capitalist, which is simply world wide free market. Then there is 'globalism' as defined by the political elite, in a political Union.
Yes one is basically communism, the other is anything but. And the political elite like to make sure that the definition are well and truly blurred. They blame all the problems they cause on the very think that can fix it, so people call out for more communism.
>>140552571 >Why do people in other countries "deserve" to do them though nobody "deserves" anything, they get those jobs because they are willing to work for a lesser pay than their western counterparts, owing to the fact that before the ebul capitalist pigs factory being built, they were substenance farmers ekeing out a meager existence
from your perspective, it looks like ebul porky exploiting those poor poor chinks, from their perspective its a huge improvement
>>140541638 >Being better off relative to others makes your situation better No. Enough Food, Adequate Housing, and Consumer Goods>Respect. Destroying the Economy out of spite is not a legitimate position.
>>140545820 >I know I would be poorer under communism, but I still like it since everyone else would be even more poor compared to now First of all, people like you are why I have no respect for communism. Secondly, you are nothing but a worthless thief.
Definition of capitalism : an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market.
>>140552408 It doesnt believe in an invisible hand in a literal sense but a metaphorical one, very similar to the "hand" that guides natural and sexual selection in other animals. It also believes in the right of one to a certain degree of personal property, whether thst be the individuals own body, or their means of production thst they can choose to buy from another individual or create. Though the flaw of this system assumes that others will not use force to remove or take control of their property. To combat this, a voluntary agreement between parties is created, with varying terms, but most of them follow a NAP style set of rules to create a functional state. The terms on which this social contract is founded is usually beneficial for most of the parties involved and prevents parties of lesser or equal power from killing or violating the terms established by the state.
>>140553557 >The terms on which this social contract is founded is usually beneficial for most of the parties involved When only one party has a monopoly on media and the education system, how can you claim to even know that?
>>140552868 And they didn't really like it, did they. So why inflict this upon others?
>>140553723 1. still better than communism 2. nobody is forcing the workers to stay working at that factory, they are free to quit at any time 3. that factory is breaking the law of the country its in, so its not even a failure of capitalism so much as its a failure of the rule of law
>>140554036 >1. still better than communism In what way? >2. nobody is forcing the workers to stay working at that factory, they are free to quit at any time Unlike communism, in this system they starve to death and the system doesn't give a shit about them as "common workers". >3. that factory is breaking the law of the country its in But through breaking the law, it earns more than enough money to pay the fines and still profit, sounds like perfect capitalism to me.
You didn't answer this btw: >>140552571 >What is the purpose of the state?
>>140553474 >private or corporate ownership of capital goods hmmm... almost as though, again, the defining trait is capital, as opposed to the market-element which can be found back to bartering negroes.
>>140554352 the purpose of the state is to ensure everyone holds to the social contract and to punish those who break the social contract with overwhelming force
basically, to keep the peace and stop everyone from degenerating into war of everyone against everyone else
the purpose of the state is most definitely NOT to take my hard earned money and give it to your lazy incompetent ass because it is in fact NOT fair to penalize successful people who made the right choices in life while rewarding the degenerates who made the wrong choices in life
thus, refering to the video you posted, the purpose of the state should be to check if the factory is breaking law, and if it is, to make them pay damages to the workers, fines to the state and force them to change their operating procedures (or leave)
>>140553923 >Usually Like I said, it makes the false assumption that ethics are practiced by all in the system, a monopoly is the equivalent of an apex predator in nature, or a state in international politics. To combat this, people would either not consume the products made by this company, move location, or end up joining it. This is similar to what happens in nature, they prey either adapts so the predator chooses not to pursue it, moves environments, or gets eaten. As for states similar actions would be not allowing trade or immigration from another country, leave and establish another state somewhere else, or fall to a superior mikitary force. Capitalisms flaws are similar to communisms, both assume they arent systems run by animals. Though, the prey in capitalism are often far happier and live longer than communism.
>>140544697 >127 IQ >Chad Face > 6'0" and not meme 6'0" but reality. >Have 10/10s tell me when they get off work even though I'm fat and autistic. >Ignore them. It's ok manlets that roasty bitch would just break your heart anyways.
>>140554884 You'd get more respect if you did things to earn it rather than being a self-entitled brat who thinks he can have anything he wants, and then wants to drag everybody else down to his level, when told "no".
>>140553923 >And they didn't really like it, did they. So why inflict this upon others?
KEK! So because short term, people didn't like the originally harsh conditions (and yes they were bad) we should of given up and cried into the fire at home in our "shacks", in serf to some landlord or bank. Instead of increasing the wealth of the average person and the introduction of the middle classes?
You would seriously prefer people split between the have's and haven't any.
Anyway.. I'm out, places to be.. I can't sit around sulking like communist.
>>140544697 so by what logic do you believe you are entitled to having a higher standard of life than everyone around you if you are not only an economic failure but also a biological failure
i mean, other than the fact that the success of others hurts your feelings >>140555085 I'm a believer that the state should be limited to police and rescue services, military and defense, judicial system and education system everything else can be solved by the market better
>>140555460 >Instead of increasing the wealth of the average person and the introduction of the middle classes? The only way this was done is by *outsorcing* the lower class to other countries. They're still there, they're just not your people anymore.
If this really had such a great effect on your country, why do you still need to exploit other countries to fuel your own economy, why not just keep it all inside your borders, it's obviously a system that benefits everyone so... what's the problem?
>>140555830 yes I would allow it if they followed the law if said company started charging outrageous sums of money for water however, that would constitute a physical threat to the people in the country, thus activating the "military defense" part of the state - or to be more specific, the company would get raided by soldiers, seized and reprivatized to a better company
also, monopolies aren't capitalist and the company wouldn't even get to a position of "owning every water source" because there would exist laws preventing such a thing from occuring (the judicial system part of the state)
>>140557161 >characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods.
don't try to "as the bible says, 'there is no god' " me. >determined by private decision, >determined mainly by competition These are ancillaries to the capital goods question. It's not called "Private Competitionism" for a reason.
>>140556255 I hate to break it to you but your ideal state isn't capitalist then, and we're back at the "real capitalism has never been tried" thing again.
Since you're giving so many non-capitalist powers to the state, where is the problem in trying to organize it so that it minimizes class differences, protects the commons, and makes the life of an ordinary worker worth living?
>>140557786 Ridiculous state regulations that hinder the free market?
>>140557963 Tell me what's not communist about taking people's money by force and redistributing it to fund a state that forbids free market actors from acting on said free market unless they satisfy the demands of the state. It's literally communism.
>>140541638 >Even if socialism made everyone worse off I still would be better off realitive to others and therefor be higher in the social dominance hierarchy. No you wouldn't. Socialism just makes people slaves to the state. The political class in the Soviet Union weren't standing in a bread line.
>>140558108 market stops being free if there is only one provider - hence monopoly is not capitalist; only one thing should be monopolized and that is the legitimate use of physical force and its held by the state
in my scenario, the state essentially sells the services of police, enforcement of contracts and education to people in exchange for money, aka taxes; everyone pays the same amount for those services (flat tax rate) because everyone gets the same service
hell, I'd even throw in the allowance of not being forced to buy the services of the state but that means no firemen if your house is burning, no school for your kids, no police if you get robbed and no court if you get fucked by someone not following his contract with you - the only thing that would be directly protected no matter what would be your right to life (even if you don't pay taxes, no one gets to kill you and get away with it)
>>140558936 >implying I'm not going to go down quietly, if you try to steal from or kill me, I will react accordingly, and if I get outnumbered, I will take out as many of you thieving faggots down with me.
>>140556714 >Haiti run by niggers, the rest is self explanatory >El Salvador kek the whole reason el salvador sucks so much is because of a failed communist revolution and a 12 year civil war that followed afterwards
>>140558819 >>market stops being free if there is only one provider - hence monopoly is not capitalist What if it's not a monopoly, and the foreign water company are actually three companies that follow the exact same global agenda, that's so homogenous that there's not even the kind of collusion where their owner's secretaries met in a hotel in Kyoto once, the "invisible hand" just makes them all act like the same company?
>>140559479 It goes to the purpose of the state again, if it's just something to protect some nebulous concept of socioeconomic darwinism, then I don't know what to tell you, enjoy your robot overlords. You know that this is a shit way to do it.
>>140558819 >everyone pays the same amount for those services (flat tax rate) because everyone gets the same service This doesn't seem reasonable when you remember that certain people need the service more than others. The more property you have, the more valuable it is to rob you, and the more value you find in prosecuting robbers. The weaker you are, the more you need the state to defend you, and so on.
>>140559961 Well you'd have to assume that most people would never need the service so people who need it would have it financed from their money, like health insurance, welfare, you know, evil communist stuff.
Nobody gives a damn about social hierarchy during the total fucking chaos that ensues from a rebellion, especially when the state might turn communist on a dime just because the base "everyone gets the same" just needs the government cucks to say "everyone gets the same, EXCEPT....." and nobody will disagree, it's a better life for them.
>>140559849 A shit way to do what? Just because it doesnt fit within the maxims set by a bunch of dead guys doesnt mean its any less of a theory on how the systems are doomed to fail at one point or another.
>>140565297 >>A shit way to do what? Society in general. If you have the power of choice to decide how it's run of course, if not, then might as well convince yourself that this is the best of all possible worlds...
>>140550414 >If I lived in communist russia where everyone including me made 18K a year I'd be seen as their equal. That's not how communist Russia worked. They still had different salaries in different jobs, and furthermore, the real profit opportunities were in corruption and stealing from work.
Culture in the Soviet Union was intensely status-oriented. Ability still mattered a great deal: people who were actually good at their jobs were valued to keep things running or to show off as model workers or proof of communism's ability to nurture talent, while people with skills at networking were able to get positions with both better official salaries and more opportunities for sneaking money. The rewards were just poorer than in richer societies.
If you can't do any better than janitor in the USA, then in the Soviet Union you would probably be both despised and utterly impoverished.
>>140566159 >If you can't do any better than janitor in the USA, then in the Soviet Union you would probably be both despised and utterly impoverished.
This is utterly false. If you're a janitor in the USSR you are guranteed a house, food, and healthcare. Unlike in the USA where being a janitor only barely covers your monthly rent and if you fuck up and get injured you could go bankrupt.
>>140565912 Nobody said it was easy, fair, or even enjoyable. Granted, I may be going too far into the edgy nietzsche stuff, but the points havent really been disproven when looking at the ugly history of people.
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