Math folk

john fahey/american primitivism? maybe less of an emphasis on mathy time signatures, but still has a lot of that complexity.

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>>54741286
this /thread is actually interesting

>>54741394
Listening to John Fahey and it sounds pretty cool. Not what I would consider complex, but I like it anyway.

bump for please

bumpin'

So I was in a diner with a few friends the other day and someone said "What's math rock?" and, well, what is it exactly?

Sounds like you're talking more about traditional folk, but there are a couple of acoustic math-y acts, So Much Light for example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Ql9LPrKAo

>>54742306
Nowadays it's such a broad term, but I'd say music which has technically complex melodies, time signature changes or just odd time signatures, rhytmically complex etc
I feel like there are few straight up math rock bands and I barely know what that would sound like, most bands I can think of are either also heavily influenced by hardcore, indie rock or emo or something

>>54742306
Rock that uses irregular time signatures, metric modulation, rapid changes in time signatures or timbre in general. Don Caballero is probably the best example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26VOfPwgM_w

>>54741286
>Is there such a thing as math folk?
That's pretty much a contradiction of terms, at heart.

>>54742315
Does he have a speech impediment?

>>54742465
I guess so, but I wasn't referring to strict folk music. More something that takes influence from folk music but uses the compositional characteristics of art music. Sort of like what math rock does with pop music.

>>54742502
Don't hate on singers with their own expression, I think it's cool when people sound a bit different

Some psych folk, I guess.

>>54742874
Like what?

>>54741394
This dude pretty sick any album recs By him?

>>54742315
Another one btw, might be more pop influenced than folk, but also acoustic and I really like her stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYVIBGuiB3Q

>>54742980
Anything with more instrumentation? I'd like to hear how accordion would sound in the mix.

I have yet to hear math rock that's actually complex. It's all just basic as fuck chords over slightly unusual time signatures, repeated ad infinitum. By this lame standard Jocko Homo is "math rock" because 7 is such a weird number, maaaaaan. There's no artistry or sophistication at all to this garbage, these retards would wet their skinny jeans if they saw an Elliot Carter score. Even the most basic jazz musicians have a deeper understanding of rhythm.

>>54743218
The dude that is Invalids used to do folk music, it's not very math rock though, he throws in the occasional shortened bar but that's about it. There's accordion though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgvbNeHGOpg
I wish I had something better, I think this is the closest I can come up with.

>>54743253
It's not a fucking competition about who's the most complex man, and you're one to talk about artistry.

>>54743253
What if I want to listen to both Ferruccio Busoni and Don Caballero?

>>54742306
Skinny faggots tapping and wanking their guitars soullessly

>>54743586
Why are you in this thread, anyway? Who got you so butthurt about math rock?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOEyw73E7PE
If you're looking for something complex I can rec this. Its a French band and its the closest thing I can think of when hearing math-folk

>>54743611
Damn not op but this is cool as hell

>>54743488
It doesn't need to be a competition but for a genre called "math rock" I at least expected SOME musical innovation and not the same straight-ahead punk bullshit in a sparkling new time signature
>>54743531
man then I just don't get you. Don't think I haven't tried listening to Don Cab, it bores me

>>54743611
Sounds pretty much like math rock. It's cool, but I don't see what's folk about it.

>>54743761
The acoustic instrumentation I suppose. I'm not enough into folk music to really say if it sounds folk or not.

>>54743586
Kek

>>54743865
It sounds like it's distorting at some parts, so it probably isn't acoustic.

>>54743611
don't like it

>>54741286
What is bluegrass

>>54744129
more interesting rhythms than any math rock, incoming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5VfSmiXuWw

Irish folk is pretty /math/, though not quite as complex as some of the eastern European stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNI6K_TQ684

>>54742975
My favorite Fahey album is God, Time, and Causality. Probably his most athletic or dynamic or whatever. His earlier stuff like Legend of Blind Joe Death is still incredible

>>54744200
Bluegrass is the shit pretty unappreciated on mu unfortunately

>>54744428
a lot of the newer performers are still afflicted by the same riff-and-repeat cancer as math rock, seems to me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=forqmom3YuY

>>54744200
what's a good bluegrass album or two? never really listened to it but I dig it

>>54744942
well most of the old-time stuff was released as singles so for that you gotta look into comps. I'm not super familiar with the genre so I can't give you like hot insider tips but for banjo stuff a big innovator was Earl Scruggs, he played with guitarist Lester Flatt as Flatt & Scruggs and you can find a bunch of their stuff on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNuqKB6H3Iw
another good fingerpicker is Doc Watson, known for playing fiddle tunes on guitar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUQmNGLvL3U&list=PL48446023595864E7
bill monroe (the mandolin) is the father of bluegrass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYTvj9Z_rlo
this isn't very "complicated" but he's an old great
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojFVnBOsRzU
a couple more modern guys I know are Chris Thile and Mark O'Connor, they slant a little NPR/crossover though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwbWgpbs8vQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ICDIb9b4Kw

bluegrass at its roots is appalachian music, hillbilly music, popularized. it's very intimately connected with country and they often overlap.

>>54741286
MATH IS A WONDERFUL THING
MATH IS A REALLY COOL THING

>>54744379
this shit is great. thanks anon

>>54742306
shitty prog made by scene faggots

>>54745328
oh, and folk. the 60s folk revival brought this stuff a city audience too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48bX-hBjVn4

OP here. Why did this turn into a math rock hate thread? Are math rock and folk inherently at odds, prohibiting any fusion between the two? I'm sorry for not knowing about the intense rivalry. I'll avoid mentioning this in the future.

>>54746046
there's no intense rivalry
I wish math rock were great
unfortunately: it isn't

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR8Lj1AMzV8
I like this, but I don't know if it'd be what you're looking for

>>54742567

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QsLEBzQIos

This is a combination between those two things

>>54741286
gastr del sol gets pretty close to that at times

>>54746046
Because /mu/ are plebs who can't stand anything that isn't incredibly boring and simple

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>>54746089
How much have you listened to?

>>54744339
This is cool as fuck

>>54741286
Most African folk music is very rhythmically complex.

>>54746366
I've listened to don cab, polvo, chavez, battles, shellac, lightning bolt, and a little hella
shellac and lightning bolt don't have a fucking thing to do with "math rock" and are just the attempt of math rock fans to incorporate outside music and make their scene look like it sucks a little less. the rest is largely unimaginative and unmusical garbage. Repeating a slightly unconventional pattern for 10 bars at a time and improvising over it isn't "math".

>>54746209
Actually this sounds really cool. Reminds me of Comus.

>>54746295
There isn't very much math here. Thanks anyway.

>>54746320
I've listened a bit and it seems like it's pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

>>54746575
Any regions in particular? I've listened to Mande harp music and a bit of Kalahari stuff I think and none of it seemed particularly intriguing. I'd like to hear more some more rhythmic African stuff, so please link me if you can.

>>54746632
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMzxiqwvh4k

Tell me this isn't cool as fuck

>>54746632
edgy

>>54746632
>Repeating a slightly unconventional pattern for 10 bars at a time and improvising over it isn't "math".
Try Lynx. Also, try getting over the name of the genre and just listen to the music without your ego getting in the way.

>>54746632
oh I've also listened to You Slut!
>>54746715
this one's for you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwNGxr-T4Qc

>>54745328
not that guy but gonna check some of these

also i get a feeling that banjo is really underappreciated instrument in modern music (not talking about using it as a generic indie-folky-quirky way) but actualy using it in modern ways
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA8-lTxiA3A

>>54746671
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK_e85e2XSg

>>54741286
dirty projectors

maps & atlases
i'm surprised nobody has suggested them yet

>>54746703
this is just middlebrow math-rock. pointless noodling bookends a completely conventional pop song. there's no unity or flow to this song, it's just lazy cut-and-paste. the first section sounds like a shitty Ruins song. it's also got the perennial problem of way too much drum fill: when are these guys going to figure out that it's much more effective to leave OUT some of the beats?

>>54746893
OP here, and I've actually seen them in concert before. It didn't strike me as anything mathy, though.

>>54746813
Just sounds like simplified gamelan, honestly.

>>54746940
Speak for yourself, I think what Tera Melos tries to do, they do almost perfectly.
I don't get how you like Ruins and complain about this being "too much" and just pointless noodling.

>>54746985
the used to be a mathrock band
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWxuMpnOmjY

>>54746729
the name of the genre made me expect more, but even ignoring that the music is terrible
>>54747078
additive rhythm isn't just about stapling different things together, it's about doing it in a way that works.

>>54746785
this has potential, neat

>>54746940
I chose it because it was a bit more accessible, I understand that it is a bit poppy.
But I don't think that's negative, and I think the choppy feel of it is on purpose m8.

It has some innovative use of guitar pedals, and they are incredibly tight and well rehearsed for playing something that changes that much. They also maintain a level spontaneity as well, which makes it more interesting (at least to me).
Just all round great band, and performance, in my opinion.

I will be happy if I can ever get my band to this standard.

>>54747204
How does it not work?

>>54747265
too bad he made only one song like this, i crave for more :(

>>54747116
Wow, this is pretty cool. Too bad they decided to start being quirky and indie.

Next question
Does folk+hip hop exist

>>54747276
they are tight and rehearsed
>How does it not work?
the different parts of the piece don't relate to each other. they don't revisit themes very intelligently, so the music lacks structure. for comparison, I think this has very convincing transitions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i_JzuYOPwI
what you'll notice if you pay attention to this music is sections are usually just repeating riffs. they're not repeated to change accents or anything, they're just repeated to fill time. examine the white guitar's part at 1:23 to 1:53. there's very little melodic direction to this, it's a two bar 4/4 melody repeated ad nauseum, with some ornamentation added. this is what I consider "noodling".

>>54747647
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL9rZF4Z7Lk idk, maybe. though this is quite exploitative

>>54747647
I sure hope not.

>>54746671
Np, gastr del sol is one of my favorite groups
what song did you listen to?

>>54747802
I listened to a bit of A Watery Kentucky and then the first two or so songs on Camofleur.

>>54747672
yeah that is noodling, but there are limitations of what you can do with one guitar playing live. On the track there's a bit more going on. Plus, whether it's noodling or not, it's effective and sounds cool.

You say you listened to Don Cab; when they repeat stuff, they build on it and have multiple riffs going over the top of each other. Which is common in Math Rock. I don't think I've heard many songs where a riff was repeated for an extended period of time without anything happening or changing like you claim.

That song you posted was real nice though.

>>54747954
>there are limitations of what you can do with one guitar playing live
a good jazz player would make a melody that bridged the two sections. the problem isn't that there's not enough going on, the problem is that the basic musical content is very bland and the musicians fill it out with pointless bullshit. it's like speed metal or something. mind you virtuosity can be a great and effective thing, but you have to know first and foremost where it is you're going.
>multiple riffs going over the top of each other
yeah but the music overall lacks direction, ultimately it's just a few bars looped on repeat.

>>54747844
A Watery Kentucky is from their first album, which might be the closest to what you're looking for

But Camofleur is their best so i would recommend both

>>54748233
Thanks for the recs. I already downloaded Caofleur, so I'll listen to that first.

>>54746366
this chart is so bad
but the one thing i can't believe the most is someone thinking that Henry is a better vocalist than Stuart

>>54748173
I think your problem is you don't like the style of music. That's cool.
As a guitarist, I know when it's appropriate to play certain things. If I was playing a jazz song, I may have sections flow into eachother better and smoother, if I was playing a math rock song I wouldn't.

If you don't like the sound, that's cool: however, you need to recognise that there are people who enjoy the broken, chopped together sound of teras melos far more than an artist that has nice smooth transitions.

I don't think the content is bland with most math rock and have often been taken aback while listening to it at odd note choices, and strange scales being used.

But whatever, there's no point arguing about a genre which is pretty loosely defined as it is.
I don't agree with what you say, and I prefer the sound of "math rock" to a lot of other genres, although it isn't my favourite.
I think it has merit, and you are being unfair with your criticism.

>>54749078
structural breaks have a role to play, that's a fair point to make. however I don't think any of this music uses them intelligently to generate tension etc. the very fact that you characterize the music as a "sound" illustrates my point: this music doesn't take you anywhere. they don't use these elements to build interesting large structures and create narratives. sometimes they use somewhat unusual melodies, but it's not the norm, and quite often the songs have extremely conventional pop melodies, as in the tera melos example, to balance any of that out.

>>54743253
not so sure man, math rock is hard as fuck to write. yea, there are bands that just jam to odd time signatures, but actually writing it is tough as fuck. I'm a jazz performance major, for guitar, and I wont disagree the rhythms can be caught and jammed to, but even us in the jazz dept. go watch the prog-rock ensembles to watch their playing.

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>>54749231
>they don't use these elements to build interesting large structures and create narratives
pic related

>>54746703
not a good example
This is an ok one, im going through my library right now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6hJRdrh8CI

only math rock band i can stand with vocals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o3_iq_ZcZs

have fun with this one, woot chicago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhzlhRmHmQA

just a jammy math rock group
https://ridingthediplodoc.bandcamp.com/

less mathy, but very influenced by the scene
https://bloodandbiscuits.bandcamp.com/album/horizons-rapture

captain beefheart of math
https://yowie.bandcamp.com/

hella, you know them but just cause
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7S-RhlG1bk

cats and cats and cats, name says it all, all songs accesible by last.fm
http://www.last.fm/music/Cats+And+Cats+And+Cats

whatever, that's my contribution

>>54749238
"hard to compose" doesn't mean it's any good, as a musician you should realize that
>>54749476
well I haven't heard that one, so I guess I'll check it out. by large structures I don't mean like album-length though, I mean even over the course of a single song. Listen to the first minute or so of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlLih9wyORY
You see how it tells a story? How it builds musical sentences out of basic elements, and builds towards an end?

>>54744001
He plays with an acoustic guitar with a pick-up.

>>54750062
Oh, that's odd.

>>54749769
>You see how it tells a story? How it builds musical sentences out of basic elements, and builds towards an end?
No.

>>54749640
Some cool stuff here, thanks m8

>>54750128
yea man

>>54749769
but i enjoy it. so wouldn't i think it is good AND hard to compose? I like it because it's fun, it's just cool I get to enjoy it beyond listening because i can understand music

>>54746785
>>54747265
>>54747318
Fear not for he did one other thing
http://thedandrakeensemble.bandcamp.com/releases
Maybe when he graduates college he'll make more music. One may only hope.

>>54750089
well to be very basic about it it's built on call and response. 0:03 the 7 note theme (which is itself a 4/3 call and response) gets a response from 0:03 to 0:08, it's elaborated with those slurred notes. then it gets progressively elaborated. each phrase is a response to the last phrase. 0-8s, 8s-13s, 13s-17s,17s-23s, 23s-31s, 31s-42s. the phrases and they climax naturally towards the cadence at 0:42, there's more ornamentation and fuller harmony as you approach that point and the the motives within the phrases get shorter and more distinct which gives a sense of cut time/acceleration.
just to be clear it doesn't finish over the course of that minute because that's not the end of the song
>>54750540
then say that to begin with.

>>54749640
some of it has interesting elements but it's all got a lot of that repeated-phrase problem that I mentioned. It bores me that all they can think to do with a section is repeat it, it's also fatiguing because it cheats cadential motion

>>54751402
>>54749640
that don cab video also lends credence to what steve albini has said about this stuff: it's more like percussive minimalism than "math"

>>54742454
this album is so unique. it should be celebrateted as one of the best things from the 90s

wow this is actually a very nice /thread, bumpin'