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MUSIC THEORY GENERAL

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>inb4 "noone on /mu/ knows theory"
These have worked in the past, so let's try again (and maybe make these a consistent thing.)

Discuss anything theory-related---not restricted to conventional western theory.
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>>53123399
bump for interests
>>
>>53123399

What is a neapolitan sixth?
>>
>>53123399
>---not restricted to conventional western theory
Finally, someone acknowledges that patrician music existed long before the western "canon".
>>
>>53123609
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_chord

a chord based on the flat 2 scale degree. used to prepare a V chord (click the audio examples)

usually used in first inversion (the bass note transposed up an octave)
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There is literally nothing wrong with parallel 5ths.
>>
>>53123399
who wants to suck my D dorian ?
>>
>>53123775
there's nothing wrong with eating your own shit too but people still don't do it
>>
why isnt everything in just intonation
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>>53123861
Aren't you cool...
>>
why does music theory matter

plenty of good artists have made great music without it
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>>53123730
"conventional western theory" coveres pretty much all music in the history of the world besides some middle eastern shit with quartertones.
>>
"Once you free your mind of the concept of 'harmony' and of music being 'correct', you can do whatever you want."

-Giorgio Moroder
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>>53123930
in the future we will be riding spaceships fueled by music
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>>53123934
>Africa
>India
>Australia
>>
>>53123730
>patrician music existed long before the western "canon".
too bad none of it exists anymore llllooooolllllll
>>
>>53123930
It's interesting and can help if you're looking to induce a certain feeling, I guess.

Of course, you shouldn't look at it as a rulebook, because the point of music theory is to help make music, not the other way around.
>>
I have an interest in learning music theory, but i have no fucking idea where to start with. Could anyone help me out?
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>>53123399
so how the fuck do people write music when they don't know how to read "western music theory"
please no sarcastic answers.
>inb4 just remember it
my memory is shit
i come up with a great riff, then think of new riffs which expand on that riff and i end up forgetting the original awesome riff i came up with.
>>
>>53124327
showing your ignorance there janos

ligeti was highly influenced by african rhythms and polyrhytms
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>>53124393
>i come up with a great riff, then think of new riffs which expand on that riff and i end up forgetting the original awesome riff i came up with.
Tabs?
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>>53124113
indian music uses 12 semitone octave scales.
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>>53124393
I record it on my synth. If I don't have my synth with me, I hum it into a recorder on my phone and record it on my synth when I get home.
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>>53123930
>>53124053
of course there would be these kind of mediocre pieces of shit, we're in /mu/ after all
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>>53124389
I'd say learn the chromatic scale completely and thoroughly, until you have it perfectly memorized. After that, learn about the major and minor scales.

It might seem simple but theory is complicated and you need to absolutely have the basics down.
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>>53124496
Get fucked, music shouldn't have rules. Theory is important but there shouldn't be any limitations on crafting music.
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>>53124714
ok bby go make some ambient chilltrap wave
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>>53124626
fucking what
are you saying
>>
>>53124793
Let's see your music, bud.
>>
Does anyone else have favorite or least favorite keys? For me I absolutely love F Major and Bb Major
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>>53124904
i-i just suggested he learn the basic scales first
i don't actually know a lot about music theory in case you can't tell
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>>53124470
not bad
>>
>>53124389
gradus ad parnassum

>>53125016
"learn the chromatic scale completely and thoroughly" sounds completely and thoroughly ridiculous

>>53124714
u srs ?
theory is what allows one to make shit that doesn't sound like everyone else's shit
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>>53124389
>>53125099
unless you're literally at level 0 where you need to learn note lengths and time signatures ofc
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>>53125099
i just said that because some people get confused about how b and c are only a semitone apart, same with e and f
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>>53125178
do some people have a problem looking at a keyboard?
>>
what's a good book to get started on jazz theory?
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>>53125177
Well fuck me. Any reading rec you have, anon?
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>>53123399
>There is people who thinks knowing music theory somehow actually force you to follow some rules.
It lets you know why and what makes music sound some specific way. The "rules" are nothing but guidelines, that where extracted from music from an era, it wasn´t even a rule back then. People did music certain way and some schoolars abstracted the common practices used.

>>53123775
Nope, it was regarded plebby for counterpoint because one of the goals was to have two or more melodies being heard good and independent. That´s why it is encourage to have melodies move to opposite sides. The second harmonic of a fundamental tone is the fifth tone, If you play lets say C, it does contain the G one octave above, playing the fifth always blend in nicely and stable to a note. When moved in a parallel fashion the melodies separation and independent movement is harder to hear.
But yeah, there is nothing wrong with it, it just won´t help you to differentiate melodic lines at if that matters to you.
>>
>>53123775
Nobody ever said that there was. Music theory doesn't tell you when things are 'right' or 'wrong'. All theory says about parallel 5ths is that they create unity between lines, at the cost of their independence.

>>53123797
Not to speak flatly, but that doesn't seem like the sharp thing to do.

>>53123867
Because muh transposability.

>>53123930
It doesn't matter, nor does music. I like both though.

>>53124327
It really can though.

>>53124389
Start with these online resources:
http://www.daveconservatoire.org/
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons
http://teoria.com/en/tutorials/
All three are very similar, just pick the one you like best - they're all laid out in roughly the order you'd learn your first week of a formal music theory course, so be sure to do them start to finish in order.

That should give you a sense of what you're in for. From there, if you don't want to pay to get into a uni course or a private tutor, I would recommend Laitz's The Complete Musician, Clendinning/Marvin's Musician's Guide to Theory and Analysis, Aldwell/Schachter's Harmony and Voice Leading, and Fux's Gradus Ad Parnassum.

>>53124714
>but there shouldn't be any limitations on crafting music.

There aren't any. Having an understanding of the musical structures that you're playing with are and how they interrelate helps to ensure that.

>>53125013
>Doesn't understand equal temperament
>>
>>53126958
ok mister important
>>
>>53123775
Most big band music is written in parallel motion because it makes the horns blend together as one huge voice and it sounds pretty great.
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>>53123930
Music theory is really just putting names on things and giving explanations to things that happen. Music theory shouldn't really be thought about as something with rules. It can be as free or as narrow as you're willing to make it.

>>53125458
Mark Levin Jazz theory

>>53125099
Learning the chromatic scale isn't very hard. It's just learning the names for all of the 12 notes and realizing that certain notes have multiple names.

Also I'm a music major who with some decent theory background so if anyone has questions feel free to ask.
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>>53123775
Debussy proved this.
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>>53127683
>Mark Levin Jazz theory
thank you
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>>53127683
How good are you when it comes to notational conventions, especially where it comes to polymetric stuff?

Also, how's your jazz harmony?

If the answer to either is better than 'abysmal', I could kind of use a hand with a piece I'm working on?
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>>53127789
Notation is fine and jazz harmony is okay. I play jazz so I'm familiar, but I can't say I've composed much.
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>>53126958
>>Doesn't understand equal temperament
>doesn't understand differences in fingering, intonation, timbre, and aesthetic unique to each key from according to each instrument's idiom

anyway D minorfag here. on the keyboard its beautifully symmetric and playable and it likewise works wonders on (C) winds and strings

D major is similarly nice and I have soft spots for C major, E major, and C# minor
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>>53128009
I understand the timbral effect of register on instruments better than most people, I've taught orchestration, but neither register nor instrumentation are determined by key, so claiming to have a favourite key in equal-temperament is silly.

>>53127878
Since I was hoping for some semi in-depth help, is there a way I can contact you privately and send files and stuff? Skype maybe, or a throwaway email?
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>>53128272
add me on skype I'm, rajin1295
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>>53127716

Contrapuntally?
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>>53128545
he proved there's nothing wrong with parallel fifths auiditorially. Our ears have grown accustomed to perceived dissonances much harsher than parallel fifths. Its fine to avoid them when writing like Bach, but I very rarely analyse my chord progressions or counterpoint and remove parallel 5ths or octaves. just write what sounds good.
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>>53128637

They've never been a problem. No one claimed they were intrinsically bad, just poor voice leading where it's desirable to keep lines independent. Besides, Debussy had a penchant for aping eastern music.

Anyway, parallel 5ths have been in popular music for centuries.
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>>53128458
Cheers. I'm off to dinner and a show with the boyfriend just now, but I'll definitely shoot you a message as soon as I get back. Thanks in advance for the help! :)
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>>53128861
Sure no problem enjoy your night
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jazz harmony? where?
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>>53123399
What are some good sites to learn music theory? I'm just getting into guitar, and I'd like to learn this alongside it. Is the stuff listed in the guitar general any good?
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>>53128956
See
>>53125458

>>53129123
see
>>53126958

Read before you post, please.
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>>53129170
Yeah, sorry, I was literally about to post saying that I saw those links on my second read, I tend to just skim a thread I want to ask something in the first time I read it.

Is there anything else I should know, going into learning about this though? Or just follow the guides.
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>>53129170
Jenny Death When?
>>
so anyway in the interests of speaking to each other, here's the scale I'm hammering out.

It says E Phrygian Dominant, I wonder if any fifth mode of a scale is a Phrygian dominant? does the fifth mode being dominant tie in with the V dom chord? I wonder...

It has a sound all to itself, like the sound of the scale leads you into playing it a certain way. unlike if I play c major. I guess because it's creating tensions within the scale that aren't in c major?
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>>53129218
The guides are pretty well structured. The only thing you might want to add to them is some sort of ear-training app with interval/chord recognition and maybe setting yourself some transcription (by ear, without an instrument to correct yourself with, so that you have to think about scale degrees, etc) homework.

DC has some ear-training stuff for intervals (but none for chords), though they're not very complete, or well-structured. http://www.musictheory.net/exercises is much better, and http://teoria.com/en/exercises/ is the best.

Only things I can tell you to bear in mind is that all the information on all of those online resources are only the very tip of the iceberg, and probably constitute the first week or two of uni (and that's only the theory elements of a uni course - my BMus for example treats raw theory as only one sixth of it's curriculum. If it's composition that you're interested in and want to master, you really need more one-on-one feedback with someone to look over your works and give you advice if you want to make much progress; that said, you'll make infinitely more progress as a composer if you learn theory first, and then go and do that.
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>>53129444
does sort of work with a major 7, the major 7 brings it back from the scale sound of wandering away

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1tdCLGxrrbC
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>>53129619
Yeah, I'm following the ear training thing on that justinguitar site, pretty bad at it so far, but I'm just going to keep at it I think.

I think I might, I'll have a look around for instructors in my area, I'm not going to pay for an entire uni course, but some basic instruction would be good I think. I know a couple of people in bands, my old music teacher was, I'll see if I can get him to look over it maybe.
>>
>>53129802
Aye. If you want to save money, my best advice is to get through those theory sites, buy one or two of the theory books I suggested below them and work your way through them, then find yourself a friend who composes regularly (preferably for a living, as they'll also be able to give you the basics of professional practice, if that's something you're interested in), and set up to see them once a week or so, to show them what you're working on, what you're listening to and trying to emulate, ask them questions, get advice, etc.

Another thing I would really recommend is teaching someone as you learn. After you've learned the basics, explaining them to someone who doesn't understand is a REALLY good way of sorting it all out in your head and making connections that weren't coming easily.
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>>53129942
Yeah, I just don't have the cash to go through a full course, I would if I did. I don't really know if the guy composes, but I figure he'd have to have some knowledge on the topic, I mean, he's a guitarist and a music teacher, so he'd have to have some knowledge on the topic I imagine.

Teaching it sounds really good actually, thanks anon, I have an idea as to who I could maybe teach it to as well, so that should work out well.

Those books should all be on Amazon? I'll check out the local music store, but I don't have much hope, it's not a big store, cool guys, but small time.
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>>53129709
so let's fuck around with this because it isn't illegal

1) C Eb G B
2) D F Ab C
3) Eb G B D
4) F Ab C Eb
5) G B D F
6) Ab C Eb G
7) B D F Ab


so it's Ab and Eb
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>>53128272
>neither register nor instrumentation are determined by key
[citation needed]
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>>53130182
oh my god

C Eb G B

it's a minor major chord! like james bond theme..wow! there's my first diatonic chord of C harmonic major. fucking hell.
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>>53130284
major minor chords are great.

a lot of film composers like john barry and williams really know their shit and make use of all sort of interesting devices.

>found a page on diminished substitution from my uni notes
i always forget about little techniques like this
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>>53130460
cool, if you play C maj 7 , c mmaj7 , c diminished, c maj 7 it's almost like you're playing a chord progression (like ii v i or something) but I suppose you're pulling in chords from all different scales.
>>
>>53125099
>i cannot be creative outside of a system
>>
minor third = augmented second

harmonic minor has an augmented third between the 6th and 7th
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>>53131305
augmented second!!
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>>53130178
I'm sure that he'll do, given that he teaches... unless he just tutors guitar, rather than teaches music.

Yup. All those books should be on Amazon, and shouldn't be too expensive. Don't bother getting the newest editions if they're more expensive - not much has changed.

>>53130222
>What is orchestration?
>>
>>53131420
Nah, he was the music teacher at my old school, so that could mean anything from a full degree in music theory, to just knowing a bit about instruments, from what I know of the other faculties at least. He was pretty good though, and the best option I have right now, so I think I'll go with that.

Cool, I'll save the names then, and look at them when I'm at that point in learning it then I guess.
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Just getting started with Music theory. Using the Dave Conservatoire lessons. Anyone heard of it/is it any good? Looking for a decent keyboard to practice scales and chords, now. These threads are pretty great motivators when I recognize what one of you guys are talking about
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>>53131948
you could buy a cheap 49key MIDI controller and torrent a DAW. pretty easy to get set up. should be able to find one second hand for practically nothing.
a full size electric piano is a worthy investment though, and doubles as a MIDI controller.
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>>53131972
Thanks. I just I got an akai mpd24 off craigslist and some speakers so I'm just looking for a cheap 49 key. Managed to get Ableton Live 9. I've basically just been playing around with percussions and samples in Ableton while watching tutorials on youtube while I go along with the music theory stuff.

This is probably a stupid question but will learning Music Theory help me if I went to get into doing live shows like a DJ set where I'm mixing live? Pretty much set up this hobby with the long term goal to do an intimate 10 person show in my living room
>>
>>53132020
It would help, yes; but it would not be the most efficient way to get better at that sort of thing.

Understanding functional harmony in particular, and being able to analyse the chord progressions of the tracks that you're DJing for instance could be very useful, but it would also take you a long time and a lot of dedication to learn how to do that on the fly for a live set, and frankly there are more efficient uses of your time that would make your set better quicker.
>>
so G7 being the V chord of C harmonic minor must mean that my G7 arps slot right into it.

so what does the scale do over the other Diatonic chords of the C7 scale?

you'd be playing C maj 7 but describing C m maj 7...

or you've got a jump to Dm7b5 to go to the E maj scale?
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>>53124053
>uses two chords for shitty sequencer music
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>>53127683
>certain notes have multiple names
>music major
>american education
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>>53124053
"however this approach very often yields unfavourable results"

"harmonic movement parallel with that of the chord progression" it says here
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>>53123930

I wouldn't be able to jam very well without knowing theory. It makes creating music a lot easier. It doesn't "matter" but it helps. It's frustrating having to show our other guitarist what to do constantly because he doesn't know any theory.
>>
harmonic minor works quite well over a pentatonic blues as a way to jump through the minor chord changes
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>>53123930
>plenty of good artists have made great music without it
But it's also helped plenty of artists to make great music as well
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>>53123739
I'm having problems witht his. Is the Neapolitan chord the chord placed one semitone above the tonic major chord?
Thread posts: 88
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