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Could somebody with legitimate science fiction history knowledge

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Could somebody with legitimate science fiction history knowledge tell me WHY it always comes down to Earth vs Mars?
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Because Mars is nearby, idiot.
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Mars = God of War
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>>13325070
Mars is the closest, most earth-like planet in our solar system. It's the only one we could colonize with any amount of feasibility.
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>>13325070
Because Mars is closer to Jupiter.
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>>13325070
I want to fuck that robot!
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The moons played out these days and mars is the new hotness.
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Mars is named after the roman god of war, anon.
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>>13325164
That's not the direction that happens in.

>>13325079
It also used to be thought that it was a lot more Earth-like. This would've been about the time that Lowell popularized the canals idea and Wells published War of the Worlds.
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>>13325070
Because mars superior
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Mars is humanity's #2 planet. Every other significant body in the system is either too hot, a gas giant or a moon. Nothing wrong with moons except that they aren't planets.
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>>13325079
>>13325291
Is Mars seriously the best we can do after Earth in this Solar System?
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We must avenge our beloved water towers!
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>>13325070
Nobody wants Venus.

Or Mercury.
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>>13325327
It sucks, doesn't it? All this science fiction is about colonizing planets, and yet, in terms of plain habitability colonizing Antarctica is a more feasible option.
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>>13325070
post more phat robo cock
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>>13325327
Pretty much. Aerostats in the Venusian atmosphere are a possibility as well, but are going to be awkward at best. After that, everything's pretty close in being meh as real estate (the ones with water are generally at the top of that sub-list).
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>>13325370
And therein lies the irony and fallacy of colonizing other planets.

Earth even when wrecked is still more livable than other planets within any reasonable distance.
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>>13325370
I'm in favor of space colonization, but yes, we really have our work cut out for us.

I guess on the bright side, as inhospitable as Mars is, it could be worse.
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>>13325070
Because Mars is the best hope for large colonization in this solar system and the story would be boring if there was no conflict.
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>>13325370
Which is why we should go into making space colonies and migratory fleets a la Macross instead.
We can customise the environment inside them to fit us much more easily than trying to find a planet that actually is anywhere near livable conditions.
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>>13325079

Venus is like right there and isn't a dead world like Mars brah
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>>13325534
Venus doesn't have a magnetosphere either

At least we can land on the surface of Mars, with Venus we'd be entirely reliant on floating habitats lest the surface vaporize us
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>>13325534
Venus is too fucking hot. It's even less habitable than Mars.
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>>13325550
It has one from the solar wind interacting with the ionosphere. It's no core dynamo, but it's there. Honestly, the importance of a planetary magnetic field is substantially over-represented recently.

>>13325534
>>13325649
And has a surface pressure of ~90 atm, and it rains sulfuric acid. Venus's surface is probably the least hospitable place for human life in the solar system that isn't inside a planet or on the Sun.
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>>13325534
The fucking high surface pressure and temperature that can kill probes removes Venus from our list though.
Hanging around the atmosphere is a choice, but the surface? No.
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>Venus
I can't remember if it was abook/short story or a scenario som fa/tg/uy cooked up, but there was this incredible idea for a horror story thing on Venus where a group of scientists/colonists went to the place and found some signs of ancient life, the cast was afraid of the possibility something might be alive and capable of hunting them (like always happens in the movies), but ultimately it was the planet's harsh environment that ultimately did people in. I can't remember if there was actually an alium in the first place.
It was incredibly eerie, and whatever writefag was responsible did a crack job.
I suppose I could try and find it in the archive.
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>>13325267
>It also used to be thought that it was a lot more Earth-like. This would've been about the time that Lowell popularized the canals idea and Wells published War of the Worlds.
Fucking real science getting in the way of our fantasy. I want grass, and rivers, and hot martian princesses!
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>>13325070
Mars is pretty close.
And mars used to have water and civilization a long ass time ago so theres that.
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>>13325070
We all know who the real enemy is

I say we should destroy Jupiter before some assholes get there and turn even worse
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>>13325070
Because colonies tend to grow apart from their sponsor nations over time.
Because Mars is distant from earth, any communication will suffer a twenty minute delay and any travel will take months at best. That being the case it will make earth government seem distant unresponsive to the Martians needs.

All you need from that point is for some asshole to make unreasonable demands or treat the Martians like second class citizens. They get fed up and decide they can hack it on their own.
What does the earth side asshole do about this?
Probably send soldiers... And here we go!
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>>13325531
that's quite hard to do though
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>>13325741
>TFW no Venus cloud city
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>>13326413

this
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>>13326418
As opposed to trying to find a planet that is similar enough to Earth, or trying to make the likes of Mars or Venus livable?

The tech that goes into making a self-sustainable space colony(to minimise the amount of resupply trips from Earth, saving fuel and such for real emergencies that would require help from Earth) would be helpful on Earth.

And the tech that we are gonna use to make Mars livable would easily be applicable to space colonies that we can park in Earth orbit anyway, so why not try it out in a similar scale in a closer location so we don't have to spend months trying to send help because something went wrong?
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We could also build colonies around Mars to have the best of both worlds.
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>>13325445
I think colonizing other planets is more about utilizing new resources and more living space once earth runs short.
I don't think I've ever actually seen any scifi that uses a different explanation.
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>>13325534
>surface temperatures of at least 735 K (462 °C / 863 °F)
>the pressure at the planet's surface is about 92 times that at Earth's surface
>zinc and lead both liquid at surface level
>Venus is like right there and isn't a dead world like Mars brah
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>>13325756
The archive is dead
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>>13326536
That's the Frontier myth.
In reality, Earth will never run out of room, we'll just kill each other.

Space will only be taken in expansive competition, not out of desperation.
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>>13326623
That sounds like uninformed speculation to me.
If there's competition for resources and those resources can feasibly be found elsewhere, then they're going to harvest them.
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>>13326413
I've read too many sci-fine recently where Jupiter was majorly involved in the plot.

>turned into miniature sun complete with Dyson sphere
>turned into Matroska brain
>used as mass-energy to break the plank locks and create a new universe

The last one annoyed me the most because if that's all that's needed to start a new universe, that shit is ridiculous.
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>>13326644
All that's needed to start a new universe is a whiny teenage punk to almost crash his motorcycle into a creepy psychic kid.
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>>13326636
Just my take on it.
You need the initial investment in infrastructure, be it space elevator, catapult, or just regular routine rocket launches.

Its just too expensive now to get out of the gravity well, and unless Chinese annouce a Mars program, US ain't gonna do squat. And in a crappy future, it'll always be easier to invade and kill each other for resource then fund a space program.

I believe in all the space jazz and want it, but it won't happen until ghe whole trans lunar orbital "bus stop/gas station" gets going.
I'm just sad I won't be around to see it.
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>>13326683
Since you're already pessimistic enough to believe that it won't happen, what makes you think that if it does happen it won't be even worse than before it did?
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>>13326683
>unless Chinese annouce a Mars program, US ain't gonna do squat
Nah.

All we need is a hoax announcement from NASA that there is oil on Mars, and the US would be landing the first man on Mars within 5 years.
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>>13325070
War of the Wars, obviously.
It's like one of the first SF shit ever, you dofusi.
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>>13326727
Not pessimistic, just realistic.
The 60's space race was just cold war dick measuring contest, the enthusiasm was just hype.

I'm sending thus message on a "phone" computer more powerful then any 60s SF writers could have imagined that wasn't size of a city block. The future is fickle.

It took fully ~400 years to colonize the Americas, it may take just as long for Mars. It is also entirely realistic to never have manned space exploration and just use ever advancing robot probes.

Only thing certain is this faggot generation of Americans won't do it.
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> Fictionally
Mars is considered the most Earth-like and easily Terraformable planet (which is bullshit), making it a "New Frontier" for Pioneer fanboy.
Then, Mars is "close" (depending of orbital period) but can easily be considered an isolated world, technologically or politically. Making it the best you can get of another surprise from a Nazi/Soviet/US hostile Superpower.
Lastly, since Mars is a "planet" it automatically become an equivalent to Earth (even if its bullshit) in term of powerlevel (if you consider Earth as united).

> Realistically
For starter, Terraforming Mars would require more industrial and hydroponic capacity in space than you would gain from terraforming. Making the Planet = Superpower reasoning false. Imagine it like recreating Dubai, in Antarctica, including its climate (I am NOT jocking).

Just Colonizing Mars is easier, but mostly pointless as it would be no different than an enclosed space-station painfully dropped in a gravity well.
Economically, exploiting even ONE asteroid yield a greater returns as you will use more robots anyway.
Politically, there's better way to isolate yourself and stay on the move, unless you are under the dictatorship of the fanatical Emperor Zubrin who worship Mars for whatever reasons.
Militarily, a planet is horrible to defend. Anything destroyed in orbit will create an infinite storm of hyperkinetic debris hitting anything you park here. And underground base cannot hide from advanced enemy controlling orbit
However digging in a planet would protect you from astronomical disaster like Pulsars but even that is likely possible with big enough space colony.

At best you can reduce transportation cost between base by living on Surface. But that's supposing FUTUR-TECH didn't made obsolete our reason to travel (ex: uploaded-mind).
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>>13326863
Oh, guys, if any of you are into progressive rock or just old scifi, check out "Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of The War of the Worlds."

Its a 70s concept album they went on tour wuth Liam Neeson as the narrator, video is online, torrents what not.
Its a treat.
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>>13326977
>>13326908
You realism fags just ruin everything, you cunts.
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>>13325070
Cause Earth is for fucking gaylords like you.
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>>13326615
Plebs isn't.
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>>13326644
What is a Matroska Brain?
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>>13327109
Its a big brain needed to watch mkv files.
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>>13326993
Nothing we do will keep Tribersman from ruining things.

>>13327109
A dyson sphere that's primarily a computer. Usually a few layers thick (hence the matrioskha part). I like >>13327131's version better though.
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>>13326394
>civilization

Mars had alien civilizations?!
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>>13326623
>In reality, Earth will never run out of room, we'll just kill each other.

You pessimisticfags keep saying this. Well, when it's going to happen?

And what if we don't kill each other? Regardless of whether it's feasible now, who's to say we won't want or need to colonize other planets in the future?

Who knows what technology will be like by the time our generation is dead.
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>>13327329
Its happening now.
The resource wars began even before cold war ended with the 1st gulf war.
A million Syrians have already died in these few years, now Russia joined the fray, not to mention everything in between.

We dont mean an all our war that kills everything, just the current global hegemonic struggles continuing with no end in sight.

The clear and easy solution to space is unite as a planet and set up colonies for the good of the human species, very simple.
But that won't happen any time soon.
Only hope for a massive manned space program within our life, seems to me, is a renewed space race by the Chinese who want to be first to Mars.

I mean unless you count Virgin Galatic and freefall sex tourism as space programs...
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>>13327329
There's nothing new in technology that will allow us to escape the gravity well any faster then we can do NOW.

The real pisser, is and always will be is that we could've had O'Neil cylinder colonies with 70s tech.
Mass daily rocket launches can make transport as cheap as theoretical space elevators.

The will is not there, the will, not the means.
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>>13327445
>The real pisser, is and always will be is that we could've had O'Neil cylinder colonies with 70s tech.

You'll excuse me if I find that hard to believe.
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>>13327510
You can read his book.
>>13304786

Its just physics, moving rocks in space, mining the moon etc.
We'd do it faster and better because of advances in computing.

I mean, you'd essentially need of a nerd dictator to devot resources on a planetary scale if course.
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>>13327445
>Mass daily rocket launches can make transport as cheap as theoretical space elevators.

Using what rockets and what fuel? That would be extremely expensive and no where near as effective as a space elevator. The fact that we are still stuck using rockets and the same fuel is literally the main reason why it's so difficult getting a bunch of stuff into space.
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>>13326413
Jupiter has done nothing wrong.
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>>13327554
I was reading up some shit about space elevators, and there was some guy calculating how it would be cheaper for mass conventional launches compared to the COST of building an entire elevator with as yet theoretical materials and maintaining against chance, weather, terrorism, etc.

His argument was economics, not tech.
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>>13327554
What about a mass driver?
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>>13327586
It keeps up eating all the comets that should have ended the miserable race of man already.
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>>13327602
It perturbs them towards us as well. I read the abstract of a paper a while back that claimed it ended up being pretty much even. Not sure if there's a consensus now.
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>>13327658
Great Jove, judge us kindly, for we are miserable sinners all.
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>>13325070
Now that you mention it I'm having a hard time thinking of sci-fi with Mars that wasn't Earth vs Mars.

Out of the Silent Planet, and a couple of Bradbury's Mars short stories although maybe they're cancelled out by the couple of ones he wrote with conflict between humans and martians
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>>13327787
Aria.
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>>13327787
Well, Nadesico was Earth vs Jupiter, Mars having been defeated first...
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>>13325291
The only moons we could remotely consider settling are Jupiter's moons.

But Jupiter's gravity well and radiation put a stop to that.
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>>13328301
Saturn and Uranus's are fine, as far as out-system moons go.
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>>13328344
Wouldn't the cold be an issue?
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>>13328349
Sure, but there's lots of issues regardless of what you do. Heating isn't that hard to deal with.
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>>13326528
That shit would never work right?

Like those edgy-looking spike sections would just collapse under their own weight righr
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>>13327282
> Nothing we do will keep Tribersman from ruining things.
I'm frankly amazed you guessed right after all this time. My style might be recognizable but I wonder how often you guessed wrong.

Anyway, a Space Based civilization is as awesome as a Planet based one and both can be made realistic if you thread the plot right. I'm not ruining things, not my fault if people are happy with escaping reality through unimaginative plot. (or at least horrible execution if I look at Iron blooded Orphans)

>>13327554
>>Mass daily rocket launches can make transport as cheap as theoretical space elevators.
> Using what rockets and what fuel? That would be extremely expensive and no where near as effective as a space elevator. The fact that we are still stuck using rockets and the same fuel is literally the main reason why it's so difficult getting a bunch of stuff into space.

Another anon, I have to agree with him, but mostly because a space elevator for Earth wouldn't be as efficient and practical as we would like.
Even with several one an elevator on Earth is a Single Point Catastrophe waiting to happen, we have 100years of space debris to clean first and we'll still need all orbit under GEO available without risking to hit the elevator.

To answer your question : Look at the SABRE engine, imagine one as reusable than airliners. It might use a lot of hydrogen but that's nothing if we have a breakthrough in splitting water.

Myself I see Space Elevator used for airless moon or non-reactive atmosphere (were only nuclear engine would work), hypothetically it can be easier to mass-manufacture on a planet (as storage/infrastructure can require less effort)
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>>13331427
What weight? The vegan colony didn't rotate.
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>>13331507
>My style might be recognizable but I wonder how often you guessed wrong.
As that is literally the only time I've ever posted anything to that effect... zero times.

>>13331512
They just generate gravity through exadb magic, I take it? I forget if age ever addressed that.
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>>13332886
Thing is, I actually saw someone calling name as you did... somewhere I merely happened to watch. So I do wish fanboy don't use to defend cheap copypasta like 00 (or frankly half-assed realization) by calling critic tribesman.

Especially if they dismiss like you a simple remark about realism as "ruining stuff".
If people like >>13326993 mattered we would probably still be stuck with superficial & dumbed-down plot or even propaganda placement made for public with a IQ of 70. (even Yamato 2199 evolved)

Let's apply my critic here :>>13326977 to the MARS Trilogy (by Kim Stanley Robinson)
- The terraforming take ages
- The plot isn't straight Mars vs Earth, many faction exist with very different goals.
- The war isn't straight extermination because they want the infrastructure/resources/terraforming/Local-Politic
- And the lack of spaced-based industry is handwaved by focusing on work-force and making Mars easier to terraform.

Proof that you can have a nice story and not take everybody for idiot.
It take time but little by little people learn when Author take the time to do some research.
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>>13332886
btw, at your place I wouldn't care if AGE addressed anything when the first episode feature a space colony with both external & central illumination (meaning it defeat itself).

In UC you can nitpick on why the colony aren't in pairs or rotating too fast but that's still another level entirely
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>>13333973
>Especially if they dismiss like you a simple remark about realism as "ruining stuff".
I wasn't saying realism ruins stuff (hell, I like it myself); I was talking about how you make a lot of long-winded essay posts about it that turn threads into massive nitpicky back-and-forth arguments that may or may not have something sensible to say but are mostly just tedious as hell to read. Obviously you're not the only one that does this, and I apologize for singling you out as if there was no one else, but you do do it a lot and in a recognizable way.

On a less adversarial note, The Martian is a really good example of realistic hard SF done well, and has an absolutely fucking beautiful spaceship doing the Earth-Mars trip. Spun gravity, solar panels set up properly, two kinds of radiators... it's delicious. You'd definitely enjoy it.
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>>13334050
AGE is a great example of needing a healthy kick of realism. It doesn't necessarily need to end up being realistic, but the nonsense is dialed up so high and so obvious that it detracts from everything else.
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>>13325070
>2015
>Not fighting faggot Uranus
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>>13327329
Because the reality is that if we don't elect to solve the problem by implementing population controls now then nature will solve the problem through overcrowding leading to mass starvation and conflict and reduce the population for us.

Either we fix the problem or the planet will.
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>>13334072
> I wasn't saying realism ruins stuff (hell, I like it myself); I was talking about how you make a lot of long-winded essay posts about it that turn threads into massive nitpicky back-and-forth arguments that may or may not have something sensible to say but are mostly just tedious as hell to read. Obviously you're not the only one that does this, and I apologize for singling you out as if there was no one else, but you do do it a lot and in a recognizable way.

That's a carefully worded opinion I can respect, even if I disagree with it.
Frankly it's not like this thread would have gone well whatever I said. I just pack more (hopefully) interesting analysis in a post that you would get from some thread. So I consider those "back-and-forth arguments" are saving your time.
For instance : We think of Mars vs Earth more easily in term of tropes we want (pioneer, hostile superpower) than making right speculation over the future.

ps : considering I wasn't here or participating much with like 1 post per week/month since years, the "do it a lot" is overdue.

> On a less adversarial note, The Martian is a really good example of realistic hard SF done well, and has an absolutely fucking beautiful spaceship doing the Earth-Mars trip. Spun gravity, solar panels set up properly, two kinds of radiators... it's delicious. You'd definitely enjoy it.

I intend to watch it, and enjoy it.
Even if I can already punch hole on the mission-plan they pictured. We considered more efficient since then (shy of stopping the whole manned nonsense)
I will just appreciate picturing science as something awesome, and not the source of the next doomsday
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Humanity doesn't even deserve a jewel like the Earth, and people want us to fuck over Mars now? A planet that's been minding its own business for billions of years?

Let a more responsible species come along and take care of Mars. We're better off continuing to fight over the Middle East.
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>>13334694
People like you are the worst and don't understand the only way to make progress is to *make progress*. Everything else will work itself out with the help of smart people. Saying 'fuck it we should just say here because humans are bad' is extremely shortsighted. Nothing will come from it and that is how things will get worse and lead us to our doom.

You can't just expected people to change. That's not how it works. They need a reason to change. Most often that reason needs to be something that will benefit them personally or in their wallet. Love it or hate it that's how people are and you can't stick your head in the ground and deny it or just throw a fit because it's a shitty situation. You have to keep on moving forward and just have trust in humanity. Because you really don't have any other thing to put trust in. Unless you just want everyone to die and have us be lost to the expanse of space.
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>>13334759
You're mistaken. I don't expect people to change.

People won't change. That's why space is better off left alone.

We're likely heading towards a WWIII, and you think a species like us should spread out?
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>>13334775
Humanity has been around for an extremely short amount of time and you think you can judge the species as a whole on that? We're still infants who know nothing. People have changed a lot in that short amount of time as well and they will continue to change.

And yes a species like us should spread out. That's what humanity does. It's how our species survives. Humanity isn't just grave atrocities, hate, and war. It's also love, compassion, and courage. Not saying that justifies anything because it doesn't but you can't just focus on one aspect. You have to take humanity as a whole it's all its strengths and weaknesses. Same thing with people. It's not about good or bad or anything like that.
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>>13326985
To clarify what this anon was saying, there are two versions. The first is the original Jeff Wayne production, the second is the Liam Neeson narration version. Both are awesome.
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>>13334694
Mars doesn't have feelings you fucking retard
And it's not like it can get much worse. It's already a desert. Terraforming will improve it.
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>>13327586
That's not true
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>>13337670
Paptimus was a good man
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>>13337677
The man ruined Zeta with one scene at the end of the series, and that's no good. That moment made Zeta worse, and turned the ending into one of the worst sequel baits I've ever seen

Scirocco toke a page from some hentai and mind raped Kamille, turing him into a younger, naive version of himself. That moment removes all the character development Kamille ever got and essentially takes away all the work from the series. It would have been better if Kamille was killed, because Kamille sacrificing himself is better than being turned into a vegetable.

It's bait to a decent series... but the bait makes Zeta feel incomplete unlike 0079 and Turn A.

Thankfully Tomino realized his mistake and took it out of the movies. Too bad the movies are hard to watch due to the dumb animation decisions.
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>>13337956
It was Paptimus just returning the favor. Oh hey bitch boy you don't want to fight fair you resort to tampering the machine itself? Yeah well I can do it too!
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>>13334694
> Humanity doesn't even deserve a jewel like the Earth, and people want us to fuck over Mars now? A planet that's been minding its own business for billions of years?

If you start treating inanimate mass of rock like intelligent entity, I would say you don't deserve to use a computer which is only minding its own business against entropy or at least deserved a better use.

If humanity don't deserve Earth, we should exile it to a barred rock like Mars or even the asteroid belt until we have merited every single ounce of biodiversity and gravity. The selection will be made over analysis of witty comments on anonymous board
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>>13337956
You are one stupid fuck
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>>13338695
Earth may not be sentient, but that doesn't mean we have a free pass to treat it like shit either.
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>>13339013
Not exactly.
If we fucked up the Earth and have no backups, all that happens is that we die, simple as that.
Whether we're alive or dead, the Earth continues to spin around the Sun, the Sun continues to spin around the core of the Milky Way, the universe goes on with its shit.

When we say we "ruined" the planet, we mean that we fucked it up so badly that life will have to evolve to survive it. The planet is still there, just less livable for the creatures on the planet.
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>>13339013
We're part of the Earth biosystem.
Humans do not stand apart.
Our pollution only chokes us, Earth has had many extinction events, ours is just the latest.
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>>13339231
>>13339264
Why do you insist on trying to argue with a brick wall?
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>>13339294
Is he really a brick wall?
Thought he was just another nauseatingly pseudo intellectual self-hating liberal faggot emo douche smugly judging all humanity over a nice decaf latte, sorry.
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>>13338167
That's true. It's Tomino's fault for making that the end and not Scirocco's fault.

Using The O is all his mistake though. He should of kept the Messala, the cooler suit.
>>
>>13339331
He just seems to be continuing to wallow in his pessimism without admitting any of the good things humanity can do. Seems like a brick wall to me. He's probably whatever you just said too. I'd just simplify it to someone being excessively pessimistic or something, though.
>>
>>13339352
>He should of kept the Messala, the cooler suit.

Too many cum stains in the cockpit man
>>
Because bullying Martians is fun
>>
>>13325070
Mars is the only terrestrial planet that could support a large population and is a somewhat viable candidate for terraforming.

It is also in the neighbourhood, the moons of Jupiter are much farther away for instance.
>>
>>13325327
Besides mars all I can think of is burrowing into asteroids.
>>
>>13339294
>>13339331
>>13339358
What are you talking about? All I said was that we shouldn't treat the Earth like garbage.
>>
>>13339482
>>13339467
You can put colonies almost anywhere, orbiting anything, all you need is the sun for power and some rocks to start.
Jupiter trojan points have been mentioned, the asteroid belts, of course.

You just cant get to close to the gas giants or the sun.
>>
>>13339703
We clearly feel you are wrong and Earth should be treated like shit.
>>
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>>13339013 >>13339703
> All I said was that we shouldn't treat the Earth like garbage.

Dont forget that as we say : "Nature is a bitch"
It would take intelligent intervention to protect life from a new Mass Extinction event, some of them capable of rendering the whole planet inhabitable.

Making the Earth garbage isn't the objectives, but becoming technologically advanced enough to clean it afterward and make other planet inhabitable (or even create life for the hell of it) trump all.

In millions of years we might have descendant throughout the stars despite Earth being long dead.
>>
>>13339703
You were talking about how humans are trash and shouldn't be allowed to spread out or something like that. Unless you aren't >>13334694 and >>13334775
, then sorry.
>>
>>13339893
It's my hope that, as technology advances, we'll eventually be able to live off the land without damaging the environment (at least more than necessary).

The Earth is a gem, and it'd be nice if it could remain that way for as long as possible.

>>13339949
Not that anon. Sure, it's easy to get pessimistic about things, but that doesn't get anything done.
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